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Trump Signs Epstein Bill; DOJ has 30 Days to Release Files; 119K Jobs Added in Sept., But Unemployment Ticks Up to 4.4 Percent; Fox News Poll: 76 Percent Voters Say Economy is in Bad Shape; Lawmakers to U.S. Service Members: "Don't Give Up the Ship"; NTSB: Fatigue Cracks Found in Hardware Attaching Engine to Plane. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired November 20, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SHANNON HOUGH, FOUNDER AND CEO, SHIELD OF SISTERS: ... trauma care -- trauma-informed care training.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes. I'm so glad you bring up the men. There is a higher percentage of women who are serving who will or have dealt with military sexual trauma, but there are a lot more men serving than women, and actually it's a higher number of men who have encountered it. So, certainly, those numbers are there. Shannon Hough, thank you so much. We really appreciate you.

HOUGH: Thank you.

KEILAR: A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.

President Trump signs the bill forcing the release of the Epstein (INAUDIBLE) now, how long before the public finally sees the files, and will the Justice Department use loopholes to keep some material secret still?

Plus, stunning new images reveal what happened when a UPS cargo plane crashed in Louisville. Ahead, what investigators say led to one of the plane's engines detaching entirely.

And rare snapshots. NASA releases never-before-seen pictures of an interstellar object that has been fueling conspiracy theories involving, you guessed it, aliens.

We're following these major developing stories and many more all coming in right here to CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: So, this is day one of what could be up to a 30-day wait for the Justice Department's decision on the Epstein files after President Trump signed the bill compelling their full release into law. The White House, just a short time ago, ended a press briefing before any reporter asked about the timing here or about the skepticism from lawmakers and advocates and others over whether the DOJ might delay the release of some files or redact them. CNN's Kristen Holmes is at the White House for us.

So, Kristen, what else are you hearing? KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Boris, I

mean, this was expected to come up during today's briefing, which was cut short after just a few questions. Karoline Leavitt, the Press Secretary, saying that she had to get to the next event. But, of course, the big question is, when are -- when are these documents going to be released and what exactly is going to be released?

You talk about whether or not the Justice Department might hold some of these documents back. Well, there is some skepticism that they might hold documents back, particularly given the fact that President Trump just called for this new investigation into Democrats or high- profile Democrats and their ties to Jeffrey Epstein, which we know is being conducted by the Department of Justice, by the Southern District of New York in particular, whether or not they would hold documents back and say, well, this is evidence now, so we can't actually release this.

But the Department of Justice can also withhold evidence for a number of reasons, and some of those -- some of those include if they have identifiable information of victims in them or if it has classified material in it, anything that needs to be, quote, "kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy."

And I've talked to the White House, and they do believe that there are going to be new documents that have never been seen before that are released. But, again, of course, there are questions as to what exactly those documents are going to look like and how heavily they might be redacted. We have talked to a number of White House officials who say President Trump is not going to stand in the way of these documents being released. But, yet again, if this comes down to the Justice Department, they are the ones who might say, no, we're not going to release this because of XYZ reason or, as we noted, evidence in a current ongoing investigation.

KEILAR: All right. Kristen Holmes, thank you very much.

The Jeffrey Epstein issue has dogged the Trump administration like no other over the past few weeks, and the near-unanimous approval from Congress to release the files shows the President's once-ironclad hold over his party may be slipping, certainly on this issue. Trump's fixation on foreign issues, like the visit from the Saudi Crown Prince, is also driving a wedge among his America First allies. Just listen to what the President said yesterday, embracing H-1B visas that bring in foreign workers, something many in the MAGA sphere have long opposed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm going to welcome those people. Now, my -- I love my conservative friends. I love MAGA. But this is MAGA. And those people are going to teach our people how to make computer chips. And in a short period of time, our people are going to be doing great. And those people can go home.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Meantime, we're getting a snapshot of what the U.S. economy looks like. A new jobs report out today, after a delay, shows the economy added 119,000 jobs in September. And notably, the unemployment rate rose to 4.4 percent, the highest level we've seen in nearly four years. The economy, obviously a key issue in Trump's last campaign, and how he handles it will likely be a pivotal factor in whether his party keeps control of Congress with the midterms now less than a year away.

[15:05:05]

We're joined by CNN Washington Bureau Chief and Political Director David Chalian.

David, two weeks ago, the elections we saw highlighted that affordability remains a top concern on voters' minds. And there's some new polling from Fox that gives us an idea of where voters are related to the economy. Seventy-six percent, three-quarters, view the economy negatively. That's up from 67 percent in the July. This is shaping up to be a problem for the administration.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: There's no doubt about it. You guys just talked through a bunch of the reasons why I think Donald Trump finds himself in a new political moment in this term now, which is that he's not unfamiliar with being underwater with his popularity or approval overall, but he is unfamiliar with being at real odds with his party. And we saw that on the Epstein matter.

Now, we all have been asking in politics for the last 10 years, is this the thing that's going to break this bond? I've never seen a politician have a strong bond with core supporters the way Donald Trump has with his supporters. So, I don't find myself in that predictive space of like, oh, he's now a lame duck. It's now totally over, and he's lost his total grip on MAGA. I'm not sure that's true.

But I -- but what is true is that it's a new moment. And I'm not sure if Donald Trump was at 48 percent approval or 52 percent approval instead of 38 percent or 40 percent if he would have had such a problem with his own party on Epstein where he was chasing them behind to catch up with where they were reversing course rather than leading the charge of where he wanted the party to be.

KEILAR: That's really interesting. And then on this issue of affordability that is, you know, that's the one he really owns right now, his administration owns. The Vice President issued a plea of patience when it comes to the economy at a Breitbart event this morning. Here is some of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Even though we've made incredible progress, we understand that there's a lot more work to do. And the thing that I'd ask for the American people is a little bit of patience. This economy was not harmed in 10 months. It took a deliberate four-year administration that was making life harder for everyday Americans, that was importing foreign workers instead of giving jobs to American workers, that was over-regulating, over- taxing, over-spending. They were doing everything wrong.

And as much progress as we've made, it's going to take a little bit of time for every American to feel that economic boom, which we really do believe is coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: It's a different approach than the President's.

CHALIAN: Yes, I'm so glad you played that clip. I -- I was so fascinated by this event today, anyway, that J.D. Vance was doing, because as we're talking about, Donald Trump finds himself in a new moment with his party. And his party finds itself in a new moment in starting to process, perhaps, a post-Trump Republican Party, which is -- it's been a long time, folks.

And so, J.D. Vance, going to talk with a conservative outlet, allows us to see into the person who is likely to be, you know, the front- runner for the Republican nomination, how is he talking about this affordability issue in this moment? And you're right, Brianna, quite differently than his boss is talking about it. You didn't hear there -- I -- you shouldn't be feeling terrible about it. It's all wonderful. What you heard there is, we understand that you're not feeling it yet, and we are asking you for patience, and we believe that it'll take a little bit of time, but that we'll get there.

I don't mean -- I don't often compare J.D. Vance to Barack Obama, but it's not that dissimilar ...

KEILAR: It sounded similar.

CHALIAN: ... from what we heard from Barack Obama in his re-election campaign in 2012, when he was saying there's more work to do, because they were so concerned that he couldn't be out there campaigning -- coming out of the financial crisis as a huge success, because not everyone was feeling that yet. And J.D. Vance was taking a page out of that playbook.

SANCHEZ: Going back to the Epstein files and the U-turn from President Trump, I wonder if you think that is because of the singular nature of the -- the way that that issue drives people, especially in the conservative base, versus a broader sense among people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and others that feel like the President is now getting closer to lame duck territory.

CHALIAN: Yes. I mean, the other numbers out of that Fox poll that you just mentioned that came out yesterday, look at Donald Trump's approval across a whole range of issues. It's not -- it's not just the economy where he is significantly underwater. You can look at the whole list of issues, only border security. That is the only issue that -- where he is in positive territory. Even more broadly on immigration, one of his former strengths, like the economy was a former strength, he's underwater on.

And Marjorie Taylor Greene, she hasn't been -- and I know she's one person, I'm not suggesting -- but -- but I don't think you would hear her making the argument she's making beyond Epstein. She's making it on the economy and affordability and about the warning signs that were seen in those elections two weeks ago for the Republican Party. She's making it on what you referenced at the top on foreign policy and on Donald Trump, in her eyes, not being as committed to America First, right? Something like he meets with MbS and then is touting a Sudan peace deal or something.

[15:10:06]

You hear from people like Steve Bannon and Marjorie Taylor Greene and others in the base more of a focus on the economy. And you've heard the White House start foreshadowing, yes, he's going to do domestic travel. He's going to focus on the economy. You just heard the Vice President. We hear this and we understand this and pleading with patience for the American people.

So, I don't think this is just an Epstein matter. I think Donald Trump is finding himself in a real period of weakness, and I think we all have to watch to see how they put together an approach to turn that around as we turn into the midterm election year, meeting voters where they are in the issues they care about.

SANCHEZ: We'll see if his messaging shifts at all.

CHALIAN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: David Chalian, thank you so much.

CHALIAN: Thanks, guys.

SANCHEZ: Still to come, calls from President Trump to have some lawmakers arrested and potentially sentenced to death. The reason behind that and the ensuing criticism and outrage.

Plus, new images from the NTSB giving us the clearest look yet at what caused a UPS cargo plane to crash during takeoff.

KEILAR: And later, more on the delayed September jobs report that's out. The mixed picture it paints for the labor market. We'll have that and much more coming up on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:30]

SANCHEZ: As President Trump rails against them, several Democratic lawmakers are standing their ground, refusing to back down from comments telling members of the military and the intelligence community to reject carrying out potentially illegal orders that may come from the Trump administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA): Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad ...

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): But from right here at home.

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are clear, you can refuse illegal orders.

REP. MAGGIE GOODLANDER (D-NH): You can refuse illegal orders.

DELUZIO: You must refuse illegal orders.

GOODLANDER: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law ...

REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): ... or our Constitution.

CROW: We know this is hard ...

KELLY: And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.

GOODLANDER: But whether you're serving in the CIA ...

CROW: ... the Army ...

DELUZIO: ... or Navy ...

HOULAHAN: ... the Air Force ...

KELLY: ... your vigilance is critical.

(End VT)

SANCHEZ: The President, spurred by this video, posted numerous times online about it, including this response, calling it seditious behavior punishable by death. When asked about that comment last hour, the White House said that the President doesn't want to execute lawmakers, before adding that it would be up to the Department of Justice to decide whether the lawmakers' actions are punishable by law.

Joining us now to get some perspective is former federal prosecutor Berit Berger.

Berit, thank you so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us.

So, the lawmakers didn't actually specify which orders service members may have received or might eventually receive that could be illegal. I wonder what your understanding is of what they are referring to.

BERIT BERGER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, my guess is that they kept it broad because it could refer to a number of orders. This could refer to orders to carry out attacks on Venezuelan boats that they see, that we've had many conversations about the constitutionality of that.

But at the bottom line, it is a well-settled and not controversial law that members of the military are required to follow lawful orders. And in fact, they can be prosecuted if they follow illegal or unconstitutional orders. So, what the lawmakers were doing in this video is reminding members of the armed services that this is, in fact, what the Uniform Code of Military Justice sets forth. It's the law. It's well settled. It's been that way since the 1960s. So, nothing about their message was particularly controversial because it is just well-settled law.

SANCHEZ: So, when the President describes it as seditious behavior, what do you make of that?

BERGER: Yes. I mean, it is so far from seditious behavior. I mean, sedition is a specific crime and it, you know, requires advocating or -- or planning to overthrow the government through force. I mean, this is something that -- it's different than treason, but it's a crime we don't see often. You specifically don't see it with respect to seditious words very often because of the First Amendment. It's very hard to charge somebody with sedition based just on something they say because we also believe that people have a right to criticize their government, to say things, even inflammatory things that the government might not like.

So, even if the President doesn't like the message that these lawmakers put out, even if he thinks it's wrong, which it is not based on, you know, the actual settled law, that doesn't make it sedition.

SANCHEZ: So, when you hear the White House and the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche say that they're going to look into the comments made on this video, I mean, what does that investigation entail? What does it look like?

BERGER: I mean, to me, it would just look like -- looking at a law book that would tell you what the settled law is with regard to, you know, orders that somebody has to -- to follow. It might, you know, go back and review defenses that were made during the Nuremberg trials, right? I mean, that was the defenses that, you know, these soldiers were just following orders.

We have moved so far past that now. Again, starting from the 1960s, you have court decisions saying that people can't excuse illegal things that they have done even during times of war by saying I was just following orders. If the order is unconstitutional, if it goes against settled law, service members are just not allowed to follow those orders.

So, I don't know what this investigation would entail. I think maybe looking at what that law is and what the law of sedition is, and I think you'd find that it certainly is not that.

[15:20:03]

SANCHEZ: Berit Berger, thanks so much for the expertise. Appreciate your time.

Still to come, we have frame-by-frame images showing what happened moments before that UPS cargo plane crashed a few weeks ago in Louisville. Details on what we're learning from a new NTSB report when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:24:59]

SANCHEZ: An NTSB report out today explains how, quote, "fatigue cracks" played a part in the deadly air disaster in Louisville, Kentucky, some 16 days ago. You'll recall, the fireball and debris field so sprawling it covered several blocks. Investigators believe that cracking and overstressing led to the engine separating from the UPS plane, killing all three on board and 11 others on the ground, injuring also another 23 people.

The report also revealed stunning images showing frame by frame how the engine came apart from the MD-11 aircraft. CNN Aviation Correspondent Pete Muntean is here to walk us through these new findings. So, Pete, what did they find?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: These images are so devastating. And really, it details a huge revelation here that the engine pylon that mounts the engine to the airframe and the airplane's wing failed only moments into this doomed flight. And you can see in these new images detailed in this NTSB preliminary report, UPS flight 2976 just breaking ground here at Louisville International Airport. And the left engine comes off of the wing. You can see it there peeling back, going over the wing. So, up and over here.

And then in the fourth frame, obviously, the fireball breaks out. There's some of the engine nacelle left there that they found on runway 17 right. After this crash, obviously, the fireball ensues. The plane only made it about 30 feet above the ground. But you can see here the angle of rotation past the point of no return known as V1, the speed that pilots can abort the takeoff as a latch ditch effort. This really shows in very granular detail the outcome of this metal failure, essentially, as this airplane took off here on runway 17 at Louisville, careened into a petroleum recycling area and then also a UPS warehouse.

This is the diagram of the part that broke from the NTSB. And this is what's called a lug or essentially a mount that mounts the top of the engine pylon. That's the sort of piece that connects the wing and the engine. This is it blown up here. And so, this is the mounting portion that goes onto the engine. This is the portion that goes onto the wing. And there's a spherical bolt, is what they call it, that goes through these two parts to keep them secure and together.

But what the NTSB found, they actually were able to find these parts on the engine just walking by foot. And this is what they found. This is the actual engine -- actual mount. This is called a lug, is what the official term is. And so, this is supposed to look curved, like an arch with the hole in the center that we saw earlier. And that connects through this mount that goes into the wing just like that. It would sort of arch through.

And so, you could see how these two pieces essentially sheared in two. And they were able to look at this under very high-powered microscopes, typically, is what they use. And the NTSB was able to see that there were signs of fatigue cracks here and also signs of overstress. Those are really significant things when it comes to metal. And it really, in layman's terms, broke.

And so now the big question is, why did this happen? The NTSB knows that this plane was inspected. This part was inspected back in 2021. And it wasn't due for another inspection for another 7,000 flights. So, there's some big questions now about if those inspections were simply too infrequent. This is a really, really big finding. And the NTSB now is very glad that the Federal Aviation Administration has grounded all these MD-11Fs, the plane in question.

UPS had about 26 of them. Also, FedEx uses them. Thankfully, none were in passenger service in the U.S. They're all used as cargo planes.

SANCHEZ: Notably, there was a crash back in 1979 that happened in very similar circumstances, same plane.

MUNTEAN: Yes. And back then, we obviously did not have the granular images like we did. But that is American Airlines Flight 191. Students of the craft will know this to be very similar. And it came up very quickly after this incident. That involved a DC-10. This is an MD-11. So, that was the derivative of this airplane. The MD-11 was born out of the DC-10. And it essentially spelled the end for the DC-10. The engine went up and over. Very similarly, the plane made it 300 feet into the air. But ultimately, everybody died, also killing several people on the ground. So, very similar circumstances. A lot of echoes and reverb here.

And so, of course, the NTSB will also be looking at that. It's a very rare thing for them in a preliminary report, by the way, put out in two weeks, not the typical 30 days, for them to essentially reference a previous accident from a long, long time ago. We're talking more than 40 years ago. And so, the similarities between these two are really, really eerie. Really, really devastating images here. And the NTSB really continues to dig into this. The final cause is not known. But right now, we have the smoking gun.

[15:30:02]

SANCHEZ: Yes. Wow, really stunning evidence, as you showed us.

Pete Muntean, thank you so much.

MUNTEAN: Anytime.

SANCHEZ: So, jobs were added, but unemployment is ...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)