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Dr. Joe Pierre is Interviewed about A.I. Chatbots Linked to Psychosis; NASA Prepares for 10-Day Moon Loop. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 30, 2025 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And, you know, his campaign has come with a lot of big promises for New Yorkers. A lot of attention on the Democratic side too to see, you know, is this the -- is this the national or future leader of sort of the Democratic Party direction? But I can imagine a lot of Republicans are also looking at this too to see where the holes are.

I wonder how you're evaluating what might come next for soon to be Mayor Mamdani?

PETE SEAT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: He's proved to be a great foil for Republicans so far. But what is to

be seen is if he truly is a socialist, if he's more pragmatic in his policies and governance, or if he's just simply naive. He certainly tapped into the anxiety of voters by making a lot of promises that he may not be able to keep. There could be institutional resistance. There could be bureaucratic pushback. We don't know. His policies could be a complete, total, utter failure. I think that's the most likely scenario to unfold here in the next couple of years. That's all to be seen. But I think a lot of Republicans across the country, where I live in Indiana, people are watching Zohran Mamdani to see what he does and if it's as bad as we predict it will be.

JIMENEZ: And a lot of New Yorkers here are hoping that he lives up to some of his promises.

Karen, I want to bring you in and widen the scope here because 2026 is obviously a midterm year, and Democrats had big wins in this year's elections. Mamdani, one of them.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

JIMENEZ: I wonder how you see the stakes, not just of the beginning to Mamdani's mayorship, but also around the party unifying either in states like Massachusetts, Michigan, Maine, California, or whether they actually need to, to get some of the wins that I know Democrats hope come.

FINNEY: Yes. Well, a couple things. Having worked in New York City government, I can tell you that it's going to be a challenge for Mamdani, no question. And he's going to have to work with the governor and with the city council. I hope he succeeds. New Mexico was able to pass universal childcare.

There's one report that says, if he's successful, it will mean 14,000 women will be able to return to the workforce and add some $600 million to the city's revenues. So, let's hope he's successful. We should want him to succeed in those endeavors.

I think what you're going to see from Democrats across the country is, you know, again, we've got Zohran Mamdani, we've got Abigail Spanberger, we've got all kinds of Democrats running across this country. I think the message will be obviously focusing on affordability and focusing on, frankly speaking, to the growing dissatisfaction that voters have with the job that President Trump and Republicans in Congress who have failed to hold him accountable, who have failed to do their jobs. Why are we spending so much time on regime change in Venezuela when we still haven't gotten inflation under control? When, you know, people just went through Christmas and ran up their credit cards, and those bills will come due next year. And so -- and health care costs are about to go up. So, I think you're going to see Democrats focusing on how do we earn voters trust to solve these problems.

JIMENEZ: Economy and health care will be top of mind for voters. It feels like deja vu.

FINNEY: Yes.

JIMENEZ: But it -- those issues are always top of mind whenever we have major elections.

FINNEY: That's right.

JIMENEZ: Karen Finney, Pete Seat, appreciate you both being here.

Sara.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, ahead, artificial intelligence has become part of our daily life, even if we don't know it, but some doctors are warning they're seeing a disturbing trend, the use of A.I. chatbots and psychosis.

Also, why dozens of monks are walking 2,300 miles to the U.S. Capitol.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:37:50]

SIDNER: New this morning, a major mental health concern. Doctors are now linking A.I. chatbots to human psychosis. A new report in "The Wall Street Journal" says a trend is emerging. Doctors are reporting treating dozens of patients who exhibit symptoms of psychosis following, quote, "prolonged delusion filled conversations with A.I. chatbots."

Joining us now, Dr. Joe Pierre, psychiatrist and professor at the University of California San Francisco. He is also the author of "False: How Mistrust, Disinformation and Motivated Reasoning Make Us Believe Things That Aren't True."

Thank you so much for being here.

All right, A.I. induced psychosis. How does this even begin to happen?

DR. JOE PIERRE, PSYCHIATRIST AND PROFESSOR, U.C. SAN FRANCISCO: Well, first of all, I like to call it A.I. associated psychosis because it's not totally clear what kind of role the A.I. plays in terms of actually causing this phenomenon. But basically what we've been seeing over the past year is people who are engaging in these very in-depth, extended conversations with A.I. chatbots who eventually develop delusional thinking, which are fixed, false beliefs. Like, for example, believing that they've stumbled upon some secret or amazing scientific discovery. Or I had a patient who believed that she was able to communicate with a dead relative.

SIDNER: Tell us about that case that you documented. It involved a woman I think whose brother had passed away. And for anyone who has lost somebody, you know, you have these huge feelings inside that you're trying to deal with. But in this case, she turned to A.I. a bit. What happened there?

PIERRE: Well, so I think in that case, and in many of the cases that I've seen, the starting point is, as I said, just a very in-depth conversation. We know that "The Washington Post" published a survey which found that about 13 percent of users are using chatbots for what they called musing and abstract discussions. And so my patient and many of the other patients that I've seen are logging in hours and hours, days on days with chatbots, sometimes venturing off into pretty esoteric subjects.

[09:40:06]

In the case of my patient, it was getting into the details about their deceased brother and really feeling like they had stumbled upon, with the help of the chatbot, a connection to a digital sort of footprint or a digital entity that the brother had left behind. And that sort of thing is pretty typical. These long-winded conversations where the chatbot starts validating some -- what I would call fringe thinking and encouraging that line of thinking, saying, no, this is possible, you're onto something, you know, keep going, do you want to go deeper? And that's really the process that we see that can encourage or facilitate delusional thinking.

SIDNER: Can you give us some sense of what people should do to kind of protect themselves, especially if they're in a difficult emotional state as they're going online looking sometimes for comfort or sometimes for information that then turns into something else?

PIERRE: Yes. So, I often talk about things that we can do on the user side. One is just moderating the amount of our use, right? We always talk about everything in moderation. Well, I do not think that, generally speaking, it's healthy to engage in hours and hours, days and days of dialog with chatbots. When I've seen that, and when it gets people into trouble, it often occurs to the exclusion of sleep or to the exclusion of interaction with other people. So, I think moderating our use is one thing.

I think the other key thing here is the way we interact with chatbots and really becoming better consumers so that we understand what chatbots are doing. There's a tendency for people to anthropomorphize chatbots, to think of them as people or entities. Theres a tendency to think of them as ultra reliable sources of information. Chatbots are not search engines. They're not ultra reliable sources of information. In fact, they're very fallible. We know some egregious examples of chatbots giving -- churning out patently false information and very dangerous advice. So, it's very important to understand what chatbots are and how they work.

What they're best at, actually, is mimicking human speech. They're not particularly good at giving out reliable information. And so users should be aware of that when they're interacting with those products.

SIDNER: That's really, really good advice. And a lot of people are using them for many, many different things. But it is fascinating to see what is happening in the world of psychology, especially when you have this epidemic of loneliness as well. Sometimes people, you know, use it as a friendship that they're lacking. So, there will be a lot to discuss, I'm sure, in 2026 and beyond on this.

Dr. Joe Pierre, it is a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. I know it's real early there in San Francisco, so we do appreciate it.

Omar.

JIMENEZ: Scotland already started ringing in the new year. The torches, bagpipes and Viking outfits because, of course, that make up this popular celebration. We'll bring it to you coming up.

And 2026 could be a big year for NASA. We'll tell you how the agency's next mission could launch a new era in space exploration.

Stay with us.

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[09:47:28]

SIDNER: Nope, this is not a scene out of the latest period piece. This is the beginning of new year's celebrations in Scotland. Hogmanay is the Scottish word for the last day of the year. Hogmanay celebrations originate from Viking winter solstice celebrations. And unlike new year's celebrations in other countries, the fireworks and the street parties in Scotland, well, they last for three days. This is Scotland's biggest winter holiday since Christmas. It did not become a public holiday there until 1950s. Very cool.

All right, new this morning, the FBI released photos of a motorcycle collection it says is worth $40 million and believed to belong to Ryan Wedding. He is that former Olympic snowboarder turned alleged drug kingpin and the focus of an international manhunt. Mexican officials seized the motorcycles this month. Wedding is believed to be hiding in the country under the protection of the Sinaloa Cartel. The FBI director has called him a modern day Pablo Escobar. There is a $15 million reward for his capture in a case involving alleged cocaine trafficking and multiple murders.

JIMENEZ: I'm still on the Vikings celebration. We should be there right now.

SIDNER: I mean, we should have just stopped there.

JIMENEZ: Yes. Yes.

SIDNER: So cool.

JIMENEZ: That would have been fine. That would have been fine.

SIDNER: Freedom.

JIMENEZ: The week --

SIDNER: Sorry. OK. Go ahead.

JIMENEZ: She was going to do it at some point.

SIDNER: Speaking of freedom. You can go to space.

JIMENEZ: Yes, freedom. Yes, space. Why not? NASA hoping to launch a new era in space exploration in 2026 the year astronauts head back toward the moon to start. Crew members are gearing up for a ten-day mission that gets them closer to the moon than any human has been in more than 50 years. The Artemis Two flight wont land, but it will circle the moon and reveal parts of it we have never seen before. And if all goes as planned, the mission could launch as early as February.

For insight into what's ahead and why it matters, we're joined by former NASA Astronaut Leroy Chiao and CNN's space and defense analyst Kristin Fisher.

Good to see you both.

Kristin, I want to start with you.

Circling the moon. Closer than we've been in decades. But I guess the major question is, can you just tell us why the United States hasn't gone back to the moon, or even this close for so long, and why now?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE ANALYST: How much time do you have, Omar? I mean if you want to go way back, it really starts with how much political will and how much money does NASA have? NASA has proven time and time again that it can do incredible things if there is the political will and the money behind it.

[09:50:00]

And for various reasons, various administrations and various members of Congress decided not to put NASA astronauts -- to not make that a priority anymore. And so, what you're seeing now is the culmination of about a decade of concentrated work. But everybody at NASA has been wanting to go back to the moon ever since the last Apollo mission in 1972.

So, the reason they are not landing on the moon is because it is unbelievably technical. This is Artemis Two. It is paving the way for Artemis Three, which will be the first lunar landing. And Artemis Two, the one that could be launching as early as February, though I think it will be more like March, will be orbiting the moon. And those astronauts, that four-person crew, Omar and Sara, will be flying farther into space than any humans have ever flown from earth.

SIDNER: Leroy, I'm going to -- I'm going to start with you because you have so many accolades. It's so neat. I just want to remind people what you have done. Two hundred and twenty-nine days in space, and you were the first American to vote in a U.S. presidential election in 2004 in space, which I think is very, very cool. And you did so many spacewalks I've lost count. Like five or six. Something in that range. But who's counting? What's so different about the trip going to the moon now versus the Apollo missions that launched with just one rocket?

LEROY CHIAO, FORMER NASA ASTRONAUT: Well, sure. Back in the original Apollo program, that's what inspired me as a young boy to want to be like those guys and become an astronaut. And fortunately for me, it did work out. But this is the first time since 1972, as was pointed out, that we're going to send humans around the moon, or anywhere near the moon. And so it's a big deal. You know, we've kind of had to relearn how to do all those things. The exploration program, in one form or another, has been going since 2004. So, 21 years. It's a long time. NASA is a different agency than it used to be. It's, unfortunately, like all large organizations, they tend to get more bureaucratic and inefficient. Of course, the issue of budget and political will, those are huge factors too.

And so, this is a big deal because we're going to send humans farther from earth than ever before. But technically, it's a fairly simple mission. It's actually less complex, if you will, than Apollo Eight, which, you know, orbited the moon several times before coming back. These -- this mission will basically do -- won't orbit the moon. It'll go around the moon, come back to earth, but it will test life support systems, thermal control systems, communications, all those things at those long ranges. So, it's an important mission, and it's exciting that we are finally going to be sending humans back close to the moon.

JIMENEZ: And, Kristin, you know, President Trump signed an executive order on space, essentially putting some firm dates on getting boots on the ground on the moon, doing so by 2028, which obviously would be sort of the next step after doing this orbit and observation. But is 2028 something that's realistic? I mean what is the gap here between observing versus actually getting boots back on the ground?

FISHER: Well, it's certainly ambitious, right? But if you talk to Jared Isaacman, NASA's brand-new NASA administrator, it is possible if NASA takes some very big steps right now to make this happen. And, you know, remember, it was the first Trump administration that launched the entire Artemis program. The Biden administration did intact (ph). And now here you have President Trump again in his second administration coming out with this very big executive order, putting these firm dates, landing by 2028, intended to beat China and its efforts to put Chinese taikonauts on the surface of the moon. And then by 2030, Sara and Omar, this executive order says they want to have the initial components of a lunar base on the moon. That is what this executive order just laid out by President Trump. And so, what you have here is a real difference between the Apollo program. This is so much more than flags and footprints. This is about building a base on the moon and having a permanent human presence on the surface of the moon.

SIDNER: Leroy, just really quickly, because we don't have a lot of time, can you give us one word to describe what it is like being in space for as long as you were?

CHIAO: I think the one word would be surreal, especially when you're outside doing a spacewalk. It's almost like you're in a dream. You know, am I really here?

SIDNER: Well, I'm jealous of your surreal dream.

JIMENEZ: Yes. In fact, we all are (ph).

SIDNER: Kristin Fisher, Leroy Chiao, thank you so much for joining us. We do appreciate it.

And if you're looking for a fun way back here on earth to celebrate the new year, kick back and enjoy a new CNN film featuring Hollywood legend Chevy Chase. "I'm Chevy Chase and You're Not" explorers his life and career on and off the screen. Our John Berman sat down for a chat with the comedian. Here's more of their conversation.

[09:55:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What do you like about making people laugh?

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Their laughter. I just think it's such a release for everyone. That what I do is important for other people. I know that I can really make people laugh, either standing up or falling down. And it's the laugh that means everything to them and to me because it's as if I'm being told I'm loved, you know, as a child, you know. And for them, it's releasing. It's a nice thing to have them release through laughter.

BERMAN: When did you know that you loved making people laugh?

CHASE: Last week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: It's perfect having those two together. "I'm Chevy Chase and You're Not" premieres New Year's Day, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, and the next day on the CNN app.

But you're going to see us before because we're going to be hanging out during New Year's Eve.

JIMENEZ: Yes. Yes. New Year's Eve, baby. Let's do it.

SIDNER: Yes.

JIMENEZ: Let's do it.

SIDNER: All right.

JIMENEZ: So, thank you for joining us this morning. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. "THE SITUATION ROOM," up next.

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