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Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Testifies on Capitol Hill; Iran Says It Seized Two Ships After Trump Extends Ceasefire; Trump: U.S. is Waiting for Unified Proposal from Iran; OpenAI Under Investigation Over ChatGPT's Role in Florida State University Shooting. Aired 2:30- 3p ET

Aired April 22, 2026 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: ... The year before, we have a global pandemic. It has nothing to do with me. I wasn't in any of those countries.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA), CHAIRMAN, HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR AND PENSIONS COMMITTEE: We should not be comparing ourselves.

KENNEDY: I've done a better job at limiting it in any country in the world. And you can talk to Governor McMaster about that and Governor Abbott about the help that we've given them in Texas. We know how to control the outbreaks.

CASSIDY: The question was, what steps has the administration taken to track the diseases that would come in potentially through these? You're pointing out that other countries have outbreaks, which increases the likelihood they will bring that here. And our immunization rates have fallen below 95 percent.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: That is the ongoing questioning between Senator Bill Cassidy there and the rest of the committee of HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. You heard Cassidy there, whose vote to confirm RFK Jr. was controversial, directly lamenting the idea that there are people within HHS that are skeptical of the efficacy and safety of vaccines, specifically when it comes to when they are administered to children.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes, and historically the skepticism coming from the very secretary as well. Let's talk with all of this with Dr. Paul Offit. He's the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Such an interesting exchange there. Will you commit on the record today to implement whatever vaccine guidance she issues without interference? That's another question that the secretary got. But this is part of the reason why you're seeing this kind of back and forth with Cassidy. And Kennedy replied in that particular exchange, I'm not going to make that kind of commitment. That was from the hearing yesterday.

And this is the context in which he is under fire from people like Senator Cassidy. What did you think of the exchange that you just saw?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Right, well, RFK Jr. misleads us when he says we're doing better than other countries. Let's go back to 2000. We eliminated measles from this country.

Now at the time, there were more than 10 million cases of measles in this world. There were more than 100,000 deaths from measles in this world and international travel was common. So people with measles came into this country all the time.

The reason that we were able to stop that spread from one American child to another was a critical percentage of American children were vaccinated, more than 95 percent. Now it's no different. The only difference is not that there's measles in the world.

It's not that international travel is common. It's not that measles comes in this country. It's that we have a lower immunization rates in children so that you see these outbreaks in Utah or West Texas or in South Carolina.

That's the difference. And why have those rates gone down? Largely because of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who for 20 years has been an anti- vaccine activist. And look at what happened. When the first child died in this country, in March, April of this year, of measles, died of measles, that was the first measles death since 2003, more than 20 years ago.

What did R.F.K. Jr. do? He went on national television and said, measles vaccine causes blindness. Measles vaccine causes deafness.

Measles vaccine kills children every year. Absolutely wrong and completely irresponsible. I cannot believe this man is the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

SANCHEZ: He was asked by Senator Kennedy about the nominee that President Trump has put forward to lead the CDC, Dr. Erica Schwartz. Experts that we've spoken to said that she's more traditional with her views on vaccines and supports the science. The question partly was about Kennedy's involvement, if I heard it correctly, in her being picked.

And the Secretary suggested that he had some involvement and in contrast to what he alleged had been reported otherwise. How do you see those two working together? Someone who is supportive of the science and the Secretary, which as you just outlined, is not.

OFFIT: Good luck to her. I mean, I think that if you look what happened to Susan Menendez, who said, I am going to support the science. I am not loyal to you, R.F.K. Jr. I am loyal to the science. That got her fired.

I think Erica Schwartz, I don't know her personally, but from everything I've read, she looks like a public health leader who will actually support public health, which will be a refreshing change. I feel sorry for her. I don't know how she can possibly work under a man who as anti-vaccine as he is -- but well, I think what you're seeing is you're seeing that I think the Trump administration stepped in and said, this is who we want.

Because they know that R.F.K. Jr. does not represent most parents. Most parents, Republican, Democrat, Independent, support vaccines. They don't like this anti-vaccine movement.

They don't like these outbreaks. And I think that's why the Trump administration stepped in and supported Erica Schwartz. Believe me, this is not something he likes or supports.

SANCHEZ: Well, Dr. Paul Offit, thanks so much for sharing your expertise.

[14:35:00]

OFFIT: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: Coming up, growing concerns over the battle to control the Strait of Hormuz and the oil that goes through it as President Trump extends the ceasefire with Iran. Two experts tell us what to expect from the White House and Tehran in the coming days.

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KEILAR: Iran's top negotiator is now responding after President Trump said he's extending the ceasefire as well as the American blockade on Iranian ports.

[14:40:00]

The official posting on social media, quote, "A complete ceasefire only makes sense if it is not violated by a naval blockade and holding the world economy hostage." Adding, "... reopening the Strait of Hormuz is not possible with a blatant violation of the ceasefire."

SANCHEZ: With us now is Joel Rubin. He's a former deputy assistant secretary of state in the Obama administration, also the author of "The Briefing Book" on Substack. And also joining us, Michael Allen. He served as special assistant for national security to President George W. Bush. Great to see both of you.

Joel, starting with you, who has the leverage right now? Who do you think is holding the cards in this standoff?

JOEL RUBIN, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE UNDER OBAMA: Well, Boris, we've got two relatively incoherent adversaries right now because they're both speaking past each other and quite frankly, we don't know in the Iranian case about who's calling the shots. So expectation-wise, in terms of pressure by the United States, it's clearly working. There can be questions about the legality of our blockade of the Strait of Hormuz, but the Iranians are not happy about it and the Chinese are not happy about it either.

And so I think one of the questions is, does President Trump have the interest in sticking to this for a while and not calling different shots day by day and seeing how this unfolds and seeing if other actors get in and start to push Iran back to the table?

KEILAR: Michael, what are you seeing? Because the president is saying on social media, they want the Strait open. They're starving for cash. Their military and police aren't getting paid.

MICHAEL ALLEN, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH FOR NATIONAL SECURITY: Well, they may, but they're not going to let the Strait open, I don't think. I agree with Joel in the sense that I think the president needs to exercise some strategic patience. And in my case, I think he needs to continue to blockade these Iranian ports. I do think their economy is hurt and hurting more.

I don't know that that's going to cause them or condition them to compromise in the way that we're looking for, but right now I think it's probably the best option we have. I don't think it makes sense to go back to kinetic force. It may be the only thing we can do later is to initiate an escort mission where we're actually taking, let's call it the right ships, our friendly ships, oil and gas and commercial vessels through the Straits, but for now I would just hang on to this blockade and make that the price of coming in and negotiating.

KEILAR: Part of the punt on the ceasefire from our reporting is that administration officials are sensing there isn't cohesion among the leadership and the military in Iran. I mean, how real are those questions about a fractured government?

RUBIN: They're legitimate and they're serious. The IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the paramilitary outfit that really runs the country is asserting itself behind the scenes. The Supreme Leader in name clearly is not a presence that we all see and feel in terms of his decision making.

And the foreign ministry, it makes a deal with the United States and then gets walked back by the IRGC days later. So this has been the game inside of Iran for a long time. The IRGC is now elevated as a result of the strikes that were effective in decapitating Iranian leadership.

And I think it's going to make it very difficult to negotiate with a cutout with the foreign ministry. And so for the administration to have confidence in who they're signing a deal with, they're going to have to get the IRGC as well on board. And they're just not at the table right now and that's why we see this pause.

SANCHEZ: As Iran sort of gets aligned in its priorities between the diplomatic corps and the IRGC, as President Trump suggested, that's part of the reason he's extending the ceasefire. I guess the counterpoint to strategic patience is that Tehran can sort of un-dig out some of the stuff that is apparently buried underground, the anti- aircraft weaponry, et cetera. It could potentially expedite the creation of the Shahed drones and further receive some added weaponry via China or Russia.

ALLEN: Yes, I think you're right. I think we have to watch very closely. I'm glad that we intercepted the ship from China yesterday. It had all sorts of material on there that would benefit their ballistic missile program. But I do think we have to stay vigilant. That's probably why the president, well, at first, he said the ceasefire would be for an indefinite period.

Then he went back and said three to four days. I think he's got to hold out the credible use of force at least against some of this diversion of potential nuclear material, if not to bring them back in in terms of hitting the energy projects and the bridges. I don't know that that would be in our best interest in the long term, but I think he's got to hold out the credible use of force so that maybe they understand, listen, if they start targeting us with drones or ballistic missiles again in the Straits or other ships, that we'll at least go back after them.

KEILAR: Meanwhile, Iran doesn't have a big, bad Navy anymore. And yet Iran seizes these two ships in the Strait, right? And a Greek-linked cargo ship was also attacked.

[14:45:00]

There are these small craft that the IRGC is using to very serious ends? So how are you seeing that and how effective they are?

RUBIN: Well, you know, Brianna, first of all, it doesn't take much to seize a ship. These tankers are not armed. They're not going to start operating as if they're warships.

But I think this does present an opportunity for the administration if it wants to take it diplomatically. There are many countries around the world getting hurt by this blockade. India, Greek flagships as well, getting identified and harmed as well.

Let's use that. Let's build a coalition of support and pressure on Iran to stop blockading the Strait of Hormuz, to stop attacking ships that are transiting through there. The administration has a long way to go still in building that international support that's consistent, robust, and can get in the Iranians' ears.

Because the whole global economy now is held hostage, not just the American economy. And I think we need to be a little more creative in our diplomacy to put pressure back on Iran as well.

SANCHEZ: Is that still possible, given some of the administration's posturing toward key allies, specifically NATO?

ALLEN: Well, I've read that they're meeting again this week, and they want to do something separate from the United States. So they want to be distinct from the warring parties, but they want to try and play some sort of constructive role to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. So I'm glad they're engaged.

I think it's a recognition that not only do we need help, but that it's an important throughway for their own economies. And so I think they see it in their own national interest. And if they're going to help, they need to. Because things are getting tense in the Strait. I mean, when you talk about shooting up these ships, I mean, this is getting close to a real sort of a hot naval war out there than we've been in in some time.

SANCHEZ: Michael Allen and Joel Rubin. Thank you both, appreciate your time.

Still to come, OpenAI facing a criminal investigation over whether it bears any responsibility for a deadly shooting at Florida State University. We'll explain when we come back.

[14:50:00]

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SANCHEZ: Now for an Earth Day edition of the other headlines we're watching this hour. Satellite images from the European Space Agency show multiple oil spills in the Persian Gulf from strikes launched during the war with Iran. Experts warn of a catastrophic impact to wildlife, including fish that people on the coast rely on for income and food.

One image from earlier this month showed a spill spanning five miles in the Strait of Hormuz. Environmentalists fear that this will soon get worse. Greenpeace Germany reports some 75 large oil tankers carrying 19 billion liters of oil remain in the Gulf.

Meantime, air quality in Bangor, Maine literally beats them all in the U.S. It's the only city named in all three of the cleanest cities list by the American Lung Association. It says Bangor has zero days of unhealthy ozone and some of the lowest year-round concentrations of dangerous particle pollution. The Lung Association says the fact that Bangor stands alone this year indicates the deterioration of air quality nationwide.

Finally, Penn State scientists say that for the first time, a glowing treetop has been recorded in nature. Look at this. The purple in these photos reflects what are called corona discharges, electrical pulses dancing at the tips of leaves after a thunderstorm.

Penn State says for more than 70 years, researchers have suspected this phenomenon took place. Now they say this image confirms it can happen outside a lab. The team followed Florida thunderstorms for three weeks to capture the image using highly specialized telescopes and cameras -- Brianna.

KEILAR: I don't even know what to say. That is crazy. That is one of the wildest things I've ever seen. I love that.

All right, our next story. Florida's attorney general is launching a criminal investigation into OpenAI and its chatbot over a deadly shooting at Florida State University last year. Prosecutors accusing ChatGPT of helping the suspected gunman carry out the crime by offering him, quote, significant advice. \

CNN's Hadas Gold is following this developing story. I mean, it's so alarming here, Hadas. What are you learning?

HADAS GOLD, CNN AI CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this may be the first time, Brianna, we've ever had a criminal investigation into an AI company. There have been plenty of civil lawsuits, but never a criminal investigation. Now, we're still before charges, but this is what the attorney general is saying.

This is connected to the Florida State University shooting last year where the suspected gunman, Phoenix Ikner, is accused of shooting and doing a mass shooting and killing two people and injuring six others. He has pled not guilty. But the Florida attorney general says that as part of their investigation, they found hundreds of messages that he exchanged with ChatGPT.

And in those messages, he said in the lead up to that mass shooting, Ikner would ask ChatGPT things like how would the media respond to a mass shooting at that university. Where is the busiest place at the university? What time is the busiest time?

The most people will be there, as well as specific questions about how to use a weapon, things about the safety and things like that. And the attorney general said that if ChatGPT was a person, they would be charged with aiding and abetting in a crime. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES UTHMEIER, FLORIDA ATTORNEY GENERAL: ChatGPT offered significant advice to the shooter before he committed such heinous crimes. Florida law states that anyone who aids, abets or counsels someone in the commission of a crime and that crime is committed or attempted is a principal in the first degree. So if that bot were a person, they would be charged with a principal in first degree murder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:55:00]

GOLD: Now, this is brand new legal territory, something that the attorney general has acknowledged. And there have been civil cases brought against AI companies in the past. And we've seen people have conversations with a chat bot and then harm themselves or harm others. But never have we seen a criminal investigation at this scale.

But the attorney general said that he feels he has a duty to find whether human beings that were involved in the design and the management operation of the chat bot were involved in a way and set it up in this way to a point that could warrant criminal liability. Now, OpenAI, for their part, they say that "The shooting was a tragedy, but they say that ChatGPT is not responsible for this terrible crime." They say that "In this case, ChatGPT provided factual responses to questions with information that could be found broadly across public sources on the internet and did not encourage or promote illegal or harmful activity."

The suspect in this case, Ikner, again, he has pled not guilty. His trial is set to begin in October -- Brianna. KEILAR: All right, Hadas, thank you. We'll be looking for that. Hadass, thank you.

New election, same baseless claims. President Trump has just reacted to the GOP's loss last night in Virginia, the accusations that he's making next.

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