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Don Lemon Tonight
Citywide Curfew in Baltimore Starting; Rep. Elijah Cummings Asks People to Go home; Coverage From the Streets of Baltimore After Curfew. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired April 28, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Chris, I want to thank you. I want to hand it over to my colleague, Don Lemon who is stand by, he's going to take over our coverage.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: But you are not going anywhere, because I'll need you, just a little bit -- sort of (inaudible) of what you have been saying. Anderson, thank you very much. Stay with me, we got a lot going on here tonight, of course in Baltimore, Maryland.
Our Breaking News here in Baltimore, a city-wide curfew, it is starting right now. The question is will people go home? Will they go home? And if they don't, what happens then? This is CNN Tonight, I'm Don Lemon. As you can see, still a lot of people out on the street, as you can see from our correspondents that we have out in the crowd, the mayor calling for protesters to leave and then meanwhile, 2,000, 2,000 national guardsmen, 1,000 police, trying to keep the lid on this city, a city that is holding its breath right now. The people who live and work in Baltimore, the people who are raising their families here, none of them wants to see a repeat of last night's violence, a repeat of this weekend's destruction. So Anderson Cooper is here with me. He's going to join us. CNN's Chris Cuomo is out among the crowds and he we'll -- we going to see if the crowds just personal check in with him just a little -- in just a little bit. But Anderson, we going to start with you, 10 o'clock hour, the question you have been asking. What I want to know, it's 10 o'clock right down. What happens if people don't go home? That's really a question facing officials right now.
COOPER: It is. I mean, I think it's really going to depend a lot on -- obviously, the police response and each among -- you know, confronting each of these groups of protesters and also the volunteers. We have seen a real important role that volunteers and pastors have been playing tonight in -- standing between the police and standing between crowds. And I think how the police respond to those volunteers, how they incorporate or use those volunteers, do they allow the volunteers to stay out in order to try to encourage the crowds to go? Again, it's a very difficult situation.
LEMOM: Yeah.
COOPER: And I'm not sure how it's going to be handled.
LEMON: Yeah. And we've seen people, as you said, we have seen members of the clergy, we have seen community leaders. We have seen even members of rival gangs, sort of getting together, trying to help people, corral people and say, hey, listen, we don't want this violence. Standby, I just want to get to Chris, because Chris is out -- right in the middle of it. Chris, we heard from a police official that they from helicopters, they have been announcing to people that the curfew is in effect. They need to get into their homes. They've been announcing it on the street. You're at the scene right now. What are you seeing?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Elijah Cummings is on our camera right now. The congressman is talking about the situation, asking people to go home.
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: -- asking people just to leave and leave without any kind of problems with the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congressman, what's your reaction when you look around here and you see this police presence, you see debris on the ground and the protesters, what's going on your mind?
CUMMINGS: I -- I just feel pain. I live in this neighborhood. I've lived in this neighborhood for 33 years. And I've seen a lot of these young people grow up. A lot of them are in real pain. They feel as if they don't have the kind of education that they need to function properly in life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And your thoughts on Freddie Gray?
CUMMINGS: Freddie Gray, it's clear to me, we -- the police have to be much more transparent. We've got a situation where we have a young man, from this neighborhood, generally, who is supposedly arrested without force or incident. Who is now -- he suffered a broken neck, a crushed larynx, and a splintered spine and then -- spinal cord, and then he died. And people -- it just goes against common sense for a lot of people, so -- that's hard. And so -- we, we did have a conversation -- (inaudible) delegation -- the western delegation met with over the phone with Loretta Lynch, our attorney general today, around about 5:30 p.m. and she assured us, it's a top priority for us. But we've got to get -- we've get hold this police department, make sure we look very carefully from top to bottom, and then we've got to listen to our children. Because, this is -- let me tell you, this is, without a doubt, the civil rights force for this generation, this voting rights and America needs to wake up, big time. All right, folks, we've got to get out of here.
CUOMO: All right, so Don, you just heard the representative. He's going to go talk to the police and see how they're going to deal with the actual administration of the curfew and we're going to stick near the congressman. Because frankly, he's out here alone, Don. So we're going to make sure that he's OK, as everything starts to move through here. And the big concern is going to be about, how the curfew is enforced on. We'll be keeping our camera up for you and you'll see it the same way we do.
LEMON: Before we let you go, we've got some -- you know what Anderson say about 40 -- 20,30,40 people out here, and where you are, Chris, how many people are you seeing out? It is curfew time.
[22:05:02] CUOMO: There are hundreds of people out here. There are probably, a couple hundred media and several hundred more actual people, spreading out throughout the intersection and down the side streets. There are just as many police officers, maybe six, seven deep (ph). Jay, if you want to swing around real quick and just give a look. That goes back much deeper than it seems right now. There are several different types of supply vehicles that are there. Jay is trying to shoot this -- one of the guys on a bicycle in front of him, back he was trying to help the situation but it's really just get involved. So this goes back six, seven layers. The question is, once they decide to enforce the curfew, the people who are think they're helping right now are going whine up to be one of the first ones that get swept up in their action. So the question then will become...
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: What will they do with, what could be well over a thousand people here in front of them, and there are -- we hear an attendant force up the side streets off this main intersection, so again, it's all going to be about how it's enforced.
LEMON: Yeah. All right Chris, we'll get back to you, standby. I want to get to CNN's Jason Carroll now. Jason is also out in the crowd. Jason, what are you seeing?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, as we look here at the number of officers that have started to line up, just within the past 10 minutes or so, we had one line of officers out here, now they are three deep (ph). So they have extended the ranks out here, coming, you know, in the minutes coming up to 10 o'clock. But still, so far, things tense here at this intersection of Pennsylvania and north, but unchanged in terms of the law enforcement stance, in terms of how they're dealing with those who are out here. I know that you heard Chris Cuomo talk about this a little earlier. Those who are engaging the community are the community members themselves. They've been out here on loud speakers, in the hour or two leading up to the curfew, encouraging people to leave, Don. At one point, though, the police helicopter above did make the announcement to clear the streets. That was heard by not the some 200 people who are still feeding into some of the side streets leading into this intersection here. So at this point, it's somewhat of a standoff, in terms of those who are still out here, not wanting to go home, at least not yet, Don?
LEMON: All right, Jason -- stand by. Again, I want to tell our viewers that it is seven minutes after 10:00 -- 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time here on the east coast, in the city of Baltimore. A citywide curfew went into effect just some seven minutes ago. There are still hundreds if not thousands of people still out on the street. There appear to be, at this moment, defying that curfew. And as our Jason Carroll has been reporting, our Chris Cuomo has been reporting, that police that -- and as you see on the screen there, police have drawn line in the middle of the street. You can see people are trying to clear the streets, they're urging the demonstrators to go home. The demonstrators appear to not wanting to -- not want to go home. So the question is -- what's going to happen now? Is there enough manpower to get people off the streets? If the protests are still peaceful, do they allow people to stay or do they arrest them? They've got plenty of manpower, but it is enough? 2,000 national guardsmen added to police, a thousand police trying to keep a lid on all of this. As we said at the beginning of this show, this -- the city is now really holding its breath, trying to -- and police are trying to keep a lid on this city.
CNN's Ryan Young also out in the crowd. Ryan, we (inaudible) the correspondent says are seeing folks defying this order. What are you seeing?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So far, you can see the Elijah Cummings, he's addressing the crowd right now, trying to tell people to go home. We've seen the crowd change over the last hour and a half or so. We've seen different people arrive here. We've been here since about 10 o'clock this morning and haven't seen the numbers of people that we seen surging towards the front. They've been asking to see what's going to exactly happens when this goes on. So people are just waiting patiently to see if the cops are going to push or they will going to stand still in the middle of the street. So that everyone's just sort of waiting around to see what happens next.
LEMON: And again, tell us the number of people that you are seeing out there. And there's -- so far, no violence. Right, Ryan? Everyone is pretty -- still pretty peaceful?
[22:09:32] YOUNG: Nope. No violence whatsoever. But you know what? We're going to walk a little bit. I'm going to show you this direction. You can see the surge of people who are coming up the street. Everyone's waiting for this 10 o'clock hour, and they've all been talking about marching forward to where the cops are. One lady just walked over and asked us, what are you guys waiting for? When they start tear gassing people? Other people in the crowd saying, no, we don't want that to happen. What we would like you guys to do is just go home peacefully. All the music that was being played throughout the day, that is now over. And what the crowd is now doing is -- we could see them, they are just standing here. Now they are asking the media to step back. But you can hear the crowd is angry. They didn't want to go home. In fact, there are several people who are hear, who seem like they want to challenge the police and see if they can move them off this street.
LEMON: OK. Ryan, I want you to standby. I'm going to keep my -- I'm going to keep the correspondents up, I'm going to keep Chris up and all of you -- all of the guys. Have Jason Carroll as well and Ryan. Ryan, what do you mean, they don't want to go home? Explain that to us. Talk to me about that.
YOUNG: Well, we've talked to a few people, especially, there are a lot of young people who weren't here earlier, who have now shown up, who are ready to cover their faces, just in case there is tear gas. Who are standing all around the edges and they're actually yelling towards the officers. For the most part, the officers have not responded to anyone who is yelling at them. It has all remained peaceful. In fact, people are screaming peace, peace, peace. But once again, the crowd has changed from what we have seen here earlier. LEMON: OK, guys -- stick with me. I want to keep your cameras up.
We'll bring you into the conversation. I also want to bring into the conversation now, the Reverend Jamal Bryant. He is a senior pastor of Empowerment Temple AME Church. He delivered Freddie Gray's eulogy and held a town hall here tonight. Also, the Reverend Ron Owens of Holy Redeemer Institutional Church of God and Christ, he joins me now. And as we are watching this, reverend, you met with the DOJ? Did you have a meeting with the DOJ?
REV. RON OWENS, HOLY REDEEMER INSTITUTIONS, CHURCH OF GOD AND CHRIST: We did have a meeting today with the DOJ. We thought they were candid, honest, and forthright.
LEMON: I'm sorry, say again?
OWENS: We did have a meeting, a group -- a select group of seven to nine leaders, variations across the city did meet with the DOJ and the director of the Civil Rights Division.
LEMON: Is there any concern, because as we're watching this, we're speaking to our correspondents who are out there, and the people don't seem to be going home. Is that a concern for you?
OWENS: I think it's beginning to be a concern. I think anytime you see lawlessness and direct intentions to disobey the officers, absolutely. And that's not what we've worked -- we led the most successful march ever yesterday, when with Elijah Cummings, myself, 200 pastors across the city, linked arm in arm, walked, engaged the police, and helped them move two brigades up and put out fires. We didn't do what we did for what we're seeing tonight.
LEMON: Yeah. And Congressman Elijah Commings (ph) is out there -- Elijah Cummings, excuse me. He's out there tonight, in the crowd, trying to get people to obey police and to go home. Reverend Bryant, my question is for you. You know, you were at the scene of the town hall that you held. There was a large crowd there just moments ago. Did you hope that holding a town hall would provide an outlet for the anger that we saw last night?
JAMAL BRYANT, DELIVERED FREDDIE GRAY'S EULOGY: I thought that the people of Baltimore deserved a hearing, and as a consequence for an hour or a little more, we just set up mic so that people could express their agony and their frustration. Martin Luther King Jr. said it the best of that riots of the language of the unheard. And people need to be heard about what it is that they feel, because they did an outlet in order for them to maintain some health.
LEMON: What's your concern right now, as we are, you know, at 10 o'clock, 10:13 p.m., and the streets are not clear?
BRYANT: Well, I think it's a very small group compared from last night or even at any of the other nights in the last nine days that we've been marching. I think it's regrettable that they are intentionally leaving themselves open for vulnerability. It's my earnest prayer that they'll begin to move and go home. We don't want any incidents. We're calling for peace and that's what this movement has been about for the last nine days and we hope to continue in that same legacy.
LEMON: We were out today, at one of the parks in the area, Druid Hill Park, and there were corpse, there were bloods there, there were members of the Black Guerilla Army there. They didn't quite say that they signed a pact, but they did say that they came to some sort of truce, and that's the first time that they have done that ever that they can remember. How big of a deal is that?
BRYANT: It was a humongous deal. I was out there with them this afternoon and they made up in their mind that they were going to move block by block, to move forward, to lend some leadership, and so I was extremely proud to see these young men step up and turn negative energy into positive leadership. And I think that's what's needed around the country, because there's been a false premise about young black people who are, in fact, actively engaged or upset. They are not thugs, they are not hoodlums, they're not criminals, they are American citizens who have a right to express what it is they feel, even when it upsets people who can't handle the truth.
LEMON: OK, reverends, both of you, I want you to stand by, I want to get back now with my colleague, Chris Cuomo who is on the ground now at the site of one of the protests. Now Chris, are you see any sign of people going home or are they holding firm?
[22:15:11] CUOMO: No, they're not. There everybody wants to see what's going to happen. Now, one of the things that just changed was, it was my understanding that the curfew was for locals, not the media. But the helicopters across our heads are saying that the media must move also or else you will be arrested. So that is a new dynamic here, which obviously is going to make it very difficult for us to exercise the right of the publicity of this situation and find out what's going on and report on it. But, what we're trying to do is give the officers as much space as possible. They have started throwing bottles randomly towards the cops. It has not changed their disposition, but the helicopters above do seem to be setting the stage for action by the police. There's no question that -- see them taking steps? That's called the step and drag. Where they take a step and they drag to stay in one line. They're banging on their shields to let you know they're coming. Here come some objects, coming now toward them, bottles, a couple of rocks. I got my hand on the (inaudible) I'm coming back so I'm not in front of the officers. People are moving back and downside streets. The officers are holding a
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got back up.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You can see the locals are not happy. They're throwing things at police, they're telling them not to and yet another one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, please, can you all, can y'all go home just (inaudible).
CUOMO: Just water bottles at this point, but still, it's a provocation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you all back up.
CUOMO: The media, they're saying, to clear back behind the barrier. The barrier would be the police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please back up.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: That was a glass bottle. All right, so Jay, I'm going to pull you back this way as they come.
LEMON: Chris, what are they saying -- are they saying anything, police, on the bull horns or on speakers?
CUOMO: They're -- well, people are yelling, use against their voices and move back, get out of the way, you know what's going to happen. And the helicopter above is saying, move out of the way, this pertains to all media as well, clear out of the area, so we're moving back and trying to give them distance, while at the same time living up to the responsibilities to keep eyes on the situation.
LEMON: Chris, we're looking --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: At people who are laying in the middle of the street. Is that anywhere near you?
CUOMO: I -- I do not see that. I do not see people -- there are a lot of people here, but I don't. You got Ryan on the other side from me, and Jason behind him and Miguel farther up the street. So, maybe one of them is closer to it. We're trying to stay closer to the police, so we can see exactly what they do.
LEMON: So reverend -- stand by, Chris. Reverend Owens, how can this be diffused?
OWENS: Well, I think before I answer that question. One of the things that we asked the DOJ to do us, to provide us, a system in place where they can monitor the conduct of the police as it relates to people's amendments' right to protest. I think what you're seeing here now is exactly was Pastor Bryant is saying, a very small element, and I think this element is divided. There are those, as I see it, who are attempting to move the crowd beyond the control of the police and say, it's over, go home. You have those who are lying down in the street, in a sense of civil disobedience, determined not to leave. And then I think that you have those out there who are determined to disrupt the peaceful march. So I think the dynamic is, is that there are elements. I am shocked and surprised that the police would tell the press that they would have to go, that severely concerns me because, that dictates that the actions of the cops won't be recorded.
LEMON: OK. Stand by. So we're media is -- media is allowed to be there? Police have said that the media is allowed to be there, while the curfew is in effect. Again, we're watching these pictures come in, of police that appear to be moving in. They are moving in and some of the protesters are defying that by throwing bottles and they continue to be on the street. My colleagues Ryan Young, Jason Carroll, Chris Cuomo are out in the crowds now. I want to go to Jason. I don't know if Jason is anywhere near this. Jason, if you can hear me, what are you seeing at your location?
[22:19:56] CARROLL: Don, I can hear you. I'm standing right here at the front line here, where you can see a number of the police officers that are still here, still in their stance. We've seen a number of people, small number, throwing bottles, water bottles, glass bottles at police. What's been happening is, every few moments or so, the number of police officers here in this one single formation starts moving a few feet. They make an announcement, clear the area and they start moving a few more feet. Continuously, asking those who are here to move back and to clear the area. What's been interesting Don, is I know you saw this in some of the video earlier, not seeing it at this point but, there were members of the community who were standing out there between the small fraction of people that are out here and this front line. Even as incoming glass bottles and water bottles were being thrown, still standing there, still telling those few who are left to leave, standing once again between those stragglers that are out here, and this line of officers that are still out here as well. I'm told from one law enforcement official that was out here, is that they're going to continue doing this. They're going to continue moving step by step, until eventually, they clear the area. Don?
LEMON: All right, Jason, standby. We're watching these pictures along with you. My colleague, Jason Carroll there, on the front line, as he said, very close to the front line. Reverend Bryant, my question to you is, is that you urged people to go home last night. Anyone who's going to hear the sound of your voice or maybe listening to you that you have some influence over, what do you say to them tonight?
BRYANT: I pray that they'll stay home. I'm not sure whether this is getting ready to start a chain and a cycle of deliberate civil disobedience. They are consciously staying there with the intention on being arrested. And I'm not sure whether that is the same intention there on tonight, but we have to see what's getting ready to happen the next ensuing days, is that they are, in fact, defying a system, because they don't believe that they should, in fact, live under that kind of restriction, in the land of the free. That all of us, myself included, ought to be home at 10 o'clock and this is in fact, their righteous indignation to the system.
LEMON: All right. In case you're just joining us at home, it is 10:22 Eastern Time, 10:22 in the city of Baltimore, Maryland. A citywide curfew went into effect some 22 minutes ago, and there are people who are defying that, as you are watching live on your screens now, here on CNN. I want to get now to one of our correspondent who's out there with that crowd, CNN's Ryan Young. Ryan, what are you seeing?
YOUNG: Well, right now, we are on the backside of the crowd, and several people from the community who are yelling at these young folks to leave the street. They're hoping that they will go home from the curfew. And I tell you, we were standing over here and there were several young men throwing plastic bottles from our location, over toward the police. And it got really serious when we saw them start throwing glass bottles. And they were hurling it in that direction. Of course, the police have moved up and we can see where they are, but there are several people who are standing out and they are definitely yelling back at the community people saying, they do not want to leave. A lot of people say this is the line they want to draw, right here in the middle of the street, and they want the confront the police, but the community members who have been here throughout the day are working as hard as they can to start that from happening. Here we go with the tear gas. The tear gas has been fired. Everybody is on it --
LEMON: Can we get back to Ryan's shot, please?
YOUNG: Tear gas --
LEMON: Thank you.
YOUNG: We are -- we are -- the tear gas canisters have been fired.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- right now.
YOUNG: We have several people --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yup. Here we go.
YOUNG: We are in the middle of it.
LEMON: Look at Ryan, let's just watch this. Let's just watch this. Let's watch this, Ryan.
YOUNG: I think that this is just smoke devices. Now there's --
LEMON: Go ahead, Chris Cuomo.
CUOMO: Don, if you can hear us, they are throwing -- we believe that these are flash bangs, that these are basically just distractions. They were picked up and thrown back at the police, and that is now forcing the line to move. So -- so now, they're coming up and they're moving the line up here. They're doing that step and drag. We'll see what happens when they come up on us.
LEMON: Let's just watch it a little bit, Chris, and hear police and the protesters.
CUOMO: So -- you got, you got it.
LEMON: All right, Chris, it appears it's calmed a little bit. I'm -- can you attest to that for us?
[22:25:00] CUOMO: Yeah, right now, they're -- yeah, they're holding that line. They've thrown those flash bangs down. Jay and I -- Jay and I are in front of where the police officers are right now. You can see the flash bangs -- they are not gas. This is not tear gas. This is not what we saw in Ferguson. They're not shooting any of their pepper bullets yet. There's a little bit of an effortness (ph) to it, but they were throwing them back at the officers that made the line come up. Now people have retreated down the street. There's one small group in the front. They're shifting over now to see their area of concentration, which is where they're getting the bottles from. Yeah, the pepper guns are what you're hearing going off now. You hear those pops, that's them shooting these repellant pellets that shoot a powder out when they hit you that has the pepper spray, the CS powder in them.
LEMON: What are we seeing in comparison to numbers, between protesters and police officers?
CUOMO: The police are probably about 500, maybe? All the way around, and the people, directly in front of them, have laid out, but you probably a close to a thousand people down the streets in two different directions. The police have not pursued in either direction. They haven't pursued in either direction right now. You can see down this way, people have run, and they've gone straight down the street. The officers reorganized in front of them, and now they are tightening ranks to move directly down this street. And, you know, you have young men in this crowd of police --
LEMON: OK, Chris.
CUOMO: Young women in this crowd of police, white, brown.
LEMON: Chris, I want you to standby. I just want to hear from our other colleagues. Don't go anywhere. Jason, you said you were right by the front line, and again, I want to tell our viewers that the media has permission to be there. Jason, is it this intense where you are? No Jason? Ryan Young what about you? OK, Jason Carroll, are you there?
CARROLL: testing. It's Jason, I can hear you.
LEMON: Go ahead, what do you see?
CARROLL: I am Don, and I can tell you, maybe you can see what's happening right now, as the line of officers there are about to move in once again. We saw some of those who were throwing some of the projectiles down in this direction. Some of them took off down the street, down Pennsylvania. Some of them are still throwing projectiles, going to back off from photographer here so he keep someone of his taste test and still trying to show you what's going on. Some of them are still throwing glass bottles, covering their faces, some of them, as they were throwing some of these objects, and then taking off down the street. Police using a great deal of restraint, as you can see, they kept their line out here, in front of what's been going on down here on Pennsylvania Street, very disappointing to some of the community activists who are out here trying to so desperately for so long, to prevent this from happening. You can see a small bit of flame over there, still some smoke. It did its part in terms of dispersing the crowd, for the most part. Still a few stragglers, that still seems to be here. Police, at this point, using a great deal of restraint during some very tense moments here, as some of these small number of rioters that are out here, still throwing some projectiles, still making their presence known. Don?
LEMON: So, is it, is it working? That's important that you pointed out, is it working?
CARROLL: It is working. It's unfortunate, for those in the community who worked so hard to prevent even this from happening, as you know. Working? Yes. Disappointing? Even more so.
LEMON: Chris Cuomo, my same -- same question to you, the measures that police are taking now, is it working? Is it getting the ones who are defying this curfew, is it moving them off the street, or at least further back?
[22:29:29] CUOMO: Yeah. Yes, it is. I mean, but you know, this is a very intricate area. You know, you have streets that lead all over the place and you only have this one phalanx of police officers right here, Don. So, what they're doing is directing their energy towards where the things were being thrown at them. But you have people down the street here, went up the street this way and down the street in front of them as well. So is it working? Yes, you no longer have the concentration of people here. Is everyone home at 10 o'clock? No. There was a targeted pepper pellets being fired by that group of officers in the corner. You see them.
[22:30:00] You hear those pop, pop, pop and then, let them shooting the pepper pellets at some people in the area over here, where they had some objects thrown at them. So that's the kind of volley going back and forth between those two groups. And there are definitely some harder core people down this street here, who were throwing the glass bottle, which certainly changes the dynamic. When the glass comes at the officers, they start reconsidering their situation and start to deploy the pepper pellets.
LEMON: I want to check in with all of our correspondents. We have Ryan Young there.
YOUNG: We -- are actually adjusting walking back toward the -- all right. So we're on the backside of the -- where everybody was running. You can see police --
LEMON: Go ahead, Ryan. Continue.
YOUNG: Oh, OK. thank you. So we're on the backside of where everybody was running away from, where police were shooting those pepper bullets. You can see police have a back area here, where they're backing up to make sure that if people try to run back down this direction, they can easily stop them or apprehend them. They've also brought in towing trucks and they are going to start towing cars, from what we were told earlier. So at this point, you can see the crowd has definitely lessened at this point, especially after that gas was in the area. People have definitely -- hold on, man, we're on TV, so give me, give me two seconds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we're on TV now.
YOUNG: So -- definitely. So --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys -- why you all out here at 10 -- 10 o'clock. They got a 10 o'clock curfew -- YOUNG: So obviously, we have -- we have somebody still here --
LEMON: We'll get back to Ryan Young in just a little bit. So we're going to back to my colleague, Chris Cuomo. Chris, there are some people who are -- you know, on still on the street, as we can see. And it appears some of them are bent on causing trouble, unfortunately. It doesn't appear to be as many people on the street in your location, the tactics that police are using, at least for the moment, may be holding or working -- for the moment.
CUOMO: Yeah, I mean, they're dispersing the people. Are the people going home? No. They're moving back down by where Ryan was. There have been a lot of volleys between the police. You can see the CO2 cartridges charging up, that's what they use to power, to fire the pepper pellets. They're using the smoke to get people to move farther down that street. You see them trying to take some shots at these younger people who around the corner down here on the left. You know, there are just pockets of situation. There is no real gunfire here. That's very important to note. As dramatic as the sounds and the smoke can be, there are no real bullets that hitting -- hitting anybody here now. You see the smoke canisters that are being thrown back and forth, but you, you have to keep it in perspective, this is not an ideal night in Baltimore, but it could be much worse in terms of violence. The questions, what do the police do next? This is not enough to disperse the crowd. They do seem to be leaving the media alone as long as we're staying out of their way. But it's really down these two areas that they would have to go farther into them to make a difference, Don. And the question is, what are their intentions and what are their rules of engagement and we'll have to wait and see.
LEMON: All right, Chris, standby. I'm going to get some law enforcement experts in here to judge the -- to gauge the response that we are seeing. I'm joined now by Ed Norris, a former Baltimore police commissioner. He joins here as -- also, Cedric Alexander is the president of the National Organization Black Law Enforcement Executives, and also, Rob Weinhold is a former chief spokesman for the Baltimore police and a crisis public safety expert. So Cedric, Ed Norris is on the phone, so Cedric, what do you make of the response from police?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES: Well, it's still very early. I think what's going to be interesting to note here is that as it goes through the night, how is this going to evolve? We don't have big crowds that are out there, as we can obviously see. However, they are somewhat slow about dispersing. I think the best thing police can do right now is, be patient and be very methodical in every move that they make and I think eventually this crowd will move on. But, you don't want to be overly aggressive right now and at the same time you don't want to be passive, it will too. I think the rhythm they're -- that the police department is in right now is a good one in terms of where that crowd is.
LEMON: Ed, you ran this department. What do you think of the response?
ED NORRIS, FORMER BALTIMORE COMMISSIONER: I think it's good. It is measured (ph). I'm not a big believer in curfews. I was tried to talk the mayor out of it, because last time it worked was Italy in the '30s. And, you'll be based on who is (inaudible), you could use what you get when you draw a line in the sand and not prepared to lock everybody up, you're going to end up getting embarrassed, and I think that's what you're seeing right now. But I think they're doing a good job so far.
LEMON: Rob, as you watch this, you see people throwing objects and see things burning now -- the response so far?
[22:34:55] ROB WEINHOLD, FORMER CHIEF SPOKESPERSON, BALTIMORE POLICE: Well, I'll tell you, it's been a very, very positive day in Baltimore. What you see, I think it's the older generation who has really tugged the younger generation on the sleeve and said, there's a different way to handle business. Tonight, hate to see a very, very positive day, a stark difference from where we were 24 hours ago, turn into anything but positive. But, authorities have said, you know there is a curfew, there's a line in the sand, and I believe time is on their side, and again, appeal to the community to make sure they influence young people the right way.
LEMON: Are you surprised that people are still out there, either of you?
ALEXANDER: No, I'm not surprised at all. And I think each night you very well may possibly have more people out there as well too. But I think as it goes on, people will stay home, but this is the very first night, but I think as things continue, it will all calm down and we're just going to be hopeful and very -- and I think it's important that they be very methodical in their movements right now, the police department itself.
LEMON: Yeah. And Ed, I know that you're the former police chief and -- commissioner and you don't want to second guess what this commissioner is doing, but it appears right now, as you said, they're doing a pretty good job. If you were advising, what would you say? Hold steady, continue to do exactly what you're doing. Would you change anything?
NORRIS: Well, if I had a -- if I had a curfew and the mayor decided to do that, I would have -- you know arrest teams on the side streets. I would walk up on them tactically. I will do some of the police records for doing cooperative doing, for (inaudible) to get the agitate (ph) in the bottle throwing. Maybe you need to be in handcuffs. You know, the first bottle, the first rock they thrown should be the last one. You killed (ph) if that go on, it can be a cop (inaudible) that's going different. And then they may be doing it, but you may not see it, it may be off-camera.
LEMON: Ed, I got to ask you real quickly, as you -- are you able to see these pictures?
NORRIS: I go down and watch it right now.
LEMON: So Ed, we are see police say, move in for -- maybe five feet, and then stop, and then move five feet and they stop, and do it maybe every 10 minutes or so, or as the crowds get closer. Explain that to us.
NORRIS: Well, I honestly, I think that they don't (inaudible) because, they want to confront the crowd. The whole world is watching this situation. I think what the police is doing is, trying to get people to disperse, but not be too aggressive. And I think they're kind of backed into that corner with this curfew, because this whole -- the whole weekend has been about police confrontation. So what do you think people are going to do? They're going to confront the police, they are going to be disobedient and disobey the curfew. That's exactly what's happening. And unless you're prepared to win there and put people in handcuffs and lock them up and put them wherever you're going to deposit them until the curfew -- you're not going to win this. And that's why I think its happening. I think this is just not that well thought out, frankly.
LEMON: Ed, what would advice? What you -- are you saying you would have advised against a curfew?
NORRIS: I do not believe in curfews, I've never believed in curfews. To me, this is (inaudible) response when they don't listen to the police. They don't usually work because, -- we already had a curfew. People in the 1700s had to be in by 10 o'clock anyway. I don't know what we've be able, now they have curfew at 10 o'clock from everyone else, it said, now they add more confrontation. I would have definitely advised the mayor against it.
LEMON: Rob?
WEINHOLD: You know, I got to tell you, I think there are a lot of strategies to deal with this type of thing, but I'll say what I said last night and that is --
LEMON: Which -- specifically the curfew part. Do you tell that was a good or bad idea?
WEINHOLD: I think at this point, it was a good idea. The reason is, and again, not to -- disagree with Ed, but I think in this case, where we've been over the past week, you at least have to lay the law down and make sure that officers engage, and frankly hold those accountable who hurt others or loot or steal or destroy property. I think it's very important to do. I think the curfew is fine, as long as it's enforced and it's enforced in a way that was set out by the leaders of this city.
LEMON: Do you think --
NORRIS: It depends on (inaudible) they haven't enforced it yet, we are waiting for it.
LEMON: Go ahead -- say again. Say again, Ed?
NORRIS: Well, I think -- he is right. But you have to enforce it. It's 10:38. Now, you're 38 minutes into the curfew. Is it being enforced or is it not being enforced? That's my problem with it. That's why I don't like these things. WEINHOLD: And I think Ed brings up a point. I mean, if you say 10:00
p.m., you mean 10:00 p.m. This is the first night that, certainly, everyone need to get used to this rule being in place. But, the police department has to enforce, I think they will enforce, but I think they're taking their time at this point, trying to do it in the most peaceful way possible. Again, with the world's eyes on them and how they're handing this.
LEMON: So Cedric, would you have done a curfew? Do you think that's the right thing?
ALEXANDER: Well, you know. You know, here's the thing, Don, there's no easy answer to that. Every community is very different. If we go back to Ferguson, right? And the optics at Ferguson are absolute horrible, after they impose a curfew. So what it appears to me that Baltimore is trying to do is do something a little different here, not be as confrontational, but of course they know they've got to get the mission done.
LEMON: OK. So with -- so at this point, what do you do? Do you go in and start arresting people?
ALEXANDER: I think they do just what they're doing right now. We have to have confidence in Baltimore PDEA, its leadership right now.
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: We have to have that confidence.
[22:40:05] LEMON: Chris, I want to get back to you, because - Chris, we saw the young man with his -- with the mask on and his hands up and then almost hit by that armored vehicle. What did you do? Did you see that? What's going on?
CUOMO: He wasn't almost hit by that armored vehicle. They drove the vehicle up, and when it got close enough to create a wedge, they ran out and grabbed him, pinned him against that, and arrested him. They must have perceived, rightly or wrongly -- we don't know, but that he was part of this group that was throwing things at him. When he tried to come up the street the first time of his -- its hands up, they were shooting the pepper bullets at him and he ran back with this other group. He then re-approached again, they let him, Don. He came across, he told all the media, you need to disperse, when -- again, this curfew is not about us, it's about whoever was creating unrest last night. And then, as he was walking back and forth, the humvee came and they used it as an opportunity and he's being taken into custody right now, apparently.
LEMON: And how many people are we seeing on the streets now, Chris? You said about 500 law enforcement -- members of law enforcement, as opposed to how many in the crowd?
CUOMO: Well, now they've really dispersed. They're no longer, as I'm looking now, you've got a good two-block cushion this way and two- block cushion that way, where there are just spare people running back and forth. You have heavier duty police vehicles coming up now. See, that's what they did. This was a pinch, Don, right? You had this main force here, but you had for supporting force coming behind it. That's what this guy was, coming from up the street. So that was to further motivate people to move back, going down that way, and now he's taking off down this way. Remember what I said, this is, this is an intricate area. There are lots of different roadways off this main hub of this intersection. But only that one person is who we've seen taken into custody. We can't speak for what's been going on down the street in either direction.
LEMON: Here's what they did with the young man in the crowd. That was a pretty slick move. And also what they're doing, as Chris is describing it, a pinch. This is quite different than what we've seen.
CUOMO: Absolutely. This is exactly what I'm speaking to as well, too. You've got to be methodical in a situation such as this. Everyone's perception of it, how they would deal with it, would be different. But since you're asking me of mine, I would do exactly what we're seeing Baltimore do tonight. I think they're doing a good job and let's see how things continue to evolve throughout the night and throughout the week.
LEMON: Do you agree?
WEINHOLD: Yeah, I do agree. I think that they're isolating, containing, arresting those who are going to continue to violate. Let's see where it goes, but I think so far, everyone's working in lockstep. Again, make no apologies for enforcing the law, but do it in a way that also promotes peace over the long-term.
LEMON: Yeah. So, Ed, what's happening right now? Are they it -- are these -- is this training that's kicking in? Is this the briefing beforehand this evening?
NORRIS: This is training. This is training --
LEMON: A brass in the crowd saying, do this next. Do this next.
NORRIS: Yeah. Now, you're seeing training that goes on way before -- you know before things like this happen. I think they're doing a great job under terrible circumstances with the whole world watching. I'm pretty proud to have led that department right now, because this is a really tense situation. I think they're doing a great job, I really do. I'm just pretty proud of what's going on. They're showing tremendous restraint.
LEMON: Yeah. And again, I want to tell our viewers, it's almost 45 -- it's 10:43 p.m. So 43 minutes into this, and so far, we have, you know, we have to get the official reports, from what we've seen on camera here. There haven't arrested anyone, except for that one person that we saw, you know, in Chris' live shot there.
WEINHOLD: Well, I go back and say this, look where we were 24 hours ago, you and I stood here 24 hours ago and we could smell smoke and hear sirens, virtually all night. The fact of the matter is, this is, again, a lot of cadence, a lot of training, going to work right now, and hopefully, it is implemented in a way that, again, promotes peace, and is also founded in enforcement. And I think once folks understand that, the curfew will be enforced. It will get a little bit easier every evening.
LEMON: 43 minutes into the hour. 43 minutes into the hour. After this curfew has been put into place, and still there are people who are out on the streets, 44 minutes now into the hour. As we watch thousands of police officers, thousands of members of the National Guard on the scene here, and what appears to be hundreds of protesters who are defying the curfew, we're going to take a quick break. We'll keep an eye on the pictures. We're going to regroup and speak with our sourcing to see exactly what's happening on the street. We'll be back in a moment with CNN's live Breaking coverage of the situation in Baltimore right after this break.
[22:44:43](COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: We're back now live with our Breaking News coverage on the
streets of Baltimore, Maryland, now where a curfew has been in effect for just 10 minutes shy of an hour. You can see a number of police officers on the street there, in tactical gear this evening. It's hard to judge the number of people who are still out there and defying this curfew. My colleagues, Chris Cuomo, Jason Carroll, live on the streets for us now, a city that is under curfew this evening, first to Jason Carroll. Jason, it's hard to get a number of really how many people are still out there. What's going on?
CARROLL: It is -- it is hard to judge. I can tell you that most of those who were here in this section have left. More officers here than anything continuing to fire projectiles at those who were still trying to defy their orders to leave. I just wanted to show you one of the things that they use here. This is it. This is what they've been firing. This is called a rubber baton. Can you imagine getting hit with this? It would hurt. And those -- this is what they were firing at some of those who were out here, refusing to leave, refusing to honor the curfew. You know, it was definitely tense out here for a few minutes. It seems more calm. I know it looks bad, as we're standing out here and things like this are happening, we do try to take shelter behind cars, as people are moving through here. So -- but I do just want to give a sense -- give you more of a sense of what these officers are doing now. They're continuing to hold their formation, continuing to hold their line, to move step by step, when they're given the order. There are still some people who are down these side streets, who are causing trouble. So eventually, what they may have to do is, they may have to break off and then go after some of those people, but for now, they are holding the line, holding this intersection, that you see right here, Don.
[22:50:12] LEMON: Yeah, Jason, I want you to standby. Chris heads up. I want to run this video of moments ago, about how they apprehended that protester that was in the crowd, right near you. He's walking right in front of police, and then they moved in with the armored vehicle. Let's put that up and then you and I can talk about it. OK, there it is. And then all of a sudden, he's gone. You don't see him, because they have taken him into custody, behind that police line. Chris, as well-executed -- and Chris, this is quite different than what we have seen in the other cities where we have covered protests, especially Ferguson. CUOMO: Look, once you get passed the idea of the curfew, right? Which
is inherently something you don't want, right? You want to have freedom, you want to have normal life, but you don't have a normal situation right now, there is a curfew in effect, and once you accept that, the idea as we were saying earlier Don, the idea that you are going to come up, tell the people and say, you need to leave, doesn't work when you're the one who's supposed to be getting out of the streets. So that's what that young man did. He was telling us, the media to get out, when you're credentialed press, you don't have to leave, because we need people to watch this situation in the interest of the public.
So as he walked back in front, they opened up the line, an arresting unit came out, grabbed him, put him back in. Another guy came out then came out and was obviously challenging the authority of the police. He walked around and said, "I want to walk behind you", they said, "no, you can't walk", so then he walked back in front of them, very slowly and very closely, and as he got to the middle of the line, it opened up and he was gone as well. Any way you want to measure it, whether you can say I heard some of your experts saying that they seem to be going very slowly, in this situation, time is your friend, if you want to see no excessive force or violence. And they have been very restrained. They're very orderly. They're making sure their closed ranks. They are worried about having things thrown at them. Jason was saying, you know, it's not pleasant to have a pepper bullet shot at you and I'm sure that's true. It's not pleasant to have rocks and bottles thrown at you either. And they've shown great restraint, and as they're moving through, they're doing so slowly and orderly. We haven't seen anything else to test that yet.
LEMON: Cedric?
ALEXANDER: Yeah, Chris is right. They've shown a great deal of restraint. And we also have to remember too, Don, that a lot of these officers are on 12-hour shifts, they're out there, they've been working a long time, and some of them are probably fatigued and tired, but they're using a great deal of restraint. And I really have to tip my hat off tonight to the Baltimore police, because that move you just saw, as well too, where they took that guy under arrest, that was very well-coordinated and planned and the way that they executed it was well -- it was done as well too. It's a good night tonight and we just got -- make sure, hopefully, they will make sure, that as tonight progresses, anyone that's going to challenge them, such as what we see right now, are going to be arrested and taken into custody.
LEMON: Yeah. Ed, I want to get back to the man that who once ran this department. You know his -- I guess we could say it's not exactly on lockdown, just shy of a lock down. On lock down in certain areas, because there -- we're under curfew, but it's surprising to see a city this big, of a major American city, to have this going on, in this day and age, Ed.
NORRIS: I don't disagree. I think this has been an -- you know, American disgrace. It's a source of embarrassment and you're right in time to be down there, you absolutely right. You don't see cities of this size and major police departments and you know (inaudible) support teams. It's a major American city to have a curfew like this. It's a -- it's a big black eye for the town and not a good time for us.
LEMON: I want to ask -- real quickly, and I ask it on the other side of the break, but we're getting close to the top of the hour. For almost an hour, this city has -- another curfew has gone into effect for Baltimore, Maryland, and you see the streets -- some of the streets in the city blocked off by members of the police department and also the National Guard as well. Curfew going into effect at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, some people chose to defy it. Most people did not and now we're watching the effects of it and all of it plays out live on television. We'll take a quick break, we're back in moments.
[22:54:37] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. You are watching CNN's Breaking News coverage of Baltimore. The police are enforcing a curfew now. It is almost the top of the hour. My colleagues are out in the street including our very own Chris Cuomo who has been watching this all unfold with me tonight. Chris, what are you seeing where you are. How many people are we seeing out there as opposed to the police?
CUOMO: None. The big intersection where everybody was is cleared now for a couple of blocks. There's a lot of media here, but those who are supposed to be respecting the curfew are largely gone. They've moved downside streets and different attachments of the officers have moved there had as well. The officers have been moving very methodically, holding the line. They're now calling up some of their own reinforcements from other situations. A couple of people have been taken into custody, but so far, this has been thankfully, very uneventful in terms of violence.
LEMON: Yeah. And that is good news and good news at this point. I'm here with my law enforcement experts and we are watching this again, all unfold, as we get closed to the top of the hour here. We see the -- you know police officers, very few people out on the street, according to our Chris Cuomo, none, he says, out on the street. And many of them driven off these major intersections by police officers, and you can see them in their tactical gear. That has they have been on several corners, the most affected areas of the city throughout the evening and really throughout the day here, but again, that curfew going into effect one hour ago.
[23:00:07] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
