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Don Lemon Tonight

Actor and Comedian Robin Williams Dead at Age 63 from Apparent Suicide; Unarmed Michael Brown Fatally Shot by Police; Interview with Michael Brown's Parents; Thousands of Desperate Yazidis Trying to Escape ISIS Terrorists

Aired August 11, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We're back now with more on the life and career of Robin Williams. And we all remember him as a comic genius but his dramatic roles were just unforgettable. Here he is in "Dead Poets Society."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBIN WILLIAMS, COMEDIAN & ACTOR: Gather ye rosebuds while ye may. The Latin term for that sentiment is carpe diem. Who knows what that means?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carpe diem. That's, "Seize the day."

WILLIAMS: Very good.

Mr. Meeks. Another unusual name. Seize the day. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

LEMON: Good evening, everyone. Top of the hour, this is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. We have a lot of breaking news for you tonight including the latest on the shocking death of Robin Williams.

Also, the terrible human toll in Iraq. Desperate men, women and children in northern Iraq running for their lives from ISIS. CNN's Ivan Watson was there for this dramatic helicopter rescue that you have to see.

Meanwhile, a struggle for power in Baghdad could make matters even worse.

And President Obama pushes for Iraq to form a new government as U.S. air strikes batter ISIS. And those keep the country from spinning out of control?

LEMON: Plus, it has happened again. This time it is in St. Louis in a suburb. An unarmed black teenager shot and killed by a police officer. A community erupting in outrage right now. Why did 18-year- old Michael Brown die in the street on the way to his grandmother's house? Some witnesses say he was surrendering. Police charged him and attacked the officer in the car. They say he attacked the officer in the car? Where does the truth lie? Is justice a moving target for young black men?

Plus, we are going to have the emotional interview with Michael Brown's mother and father. You don't want to miss that. That is coming up in this hour right here on CNN.

But we are going to begin with more on the tragic death of Robin Williams. So joining us now is CNN entertainment correspondent Nischelle Turner, celebrity publicist Michael Levine and also Shaun Robinson of Access Hollywood.

It is good to have all of you here tonight. You know, his career really spanned so many years, Michael. And you know, as I have been saying, not many people get to have a career like that. And not many people, not many actors or comedians are that versatile.

MICHAEL LEVINE, CELEBRITY PUBLICIST: You are right. It is a thousand percent right. I met Robin Williams 30 years ago. I couldn't have imagined that he was going to exceed to that level. I mean, not only as a comedian, as a dramatic actor, I mean, a remarkable career.

But you know, the thing that I think is really concerning is that when depression meets isolation, and when you're that famous, I think there is a tendency for people of enormous fame to have an isolation to them that is, when mixed with depression, is incredibly toxic and combustible.

CAMEROTA: And Nischelle, of course, we know his public persona. We're seeing some of his most famous clips working. He was an extra on "Happy Days." That's where that whole "Mork & Mindy" concept began. But he had another private life. He had three children. He has a wife. He had a family that obviously are in deep grief tonight. What more do we know about the rest of his life?

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, he did and we did hear from his wife tonight. She released a statement and asking everyone not to remember the way that Robin died but to remember the joy that he brought to everyone's life. She talked about his brilliance and how good and kind of a man he is.

We also saw the last Instagram post that Robin Williams put up on July 31st. And it was wishing his daughter him a 25th birthday. And then he posted a picture. He called it throwback Thursday. He post a picture of them when she was a baby and said, you're 25 years old today but you will always be my baby girl. There is the picture that we see right there. And he did. He had three children. He was married and divorced a couple of times but he got remarried to Susan and had been with her for a number of years and seemed very happy.

But again, you know, his representative released a statement today saying simply, he was battling severe depression. So while we see this face, that face and those kind eyes, obviously, there was a serious battle going on behind his eyes.

LEMON: Krista, can we talk about legacy? You know, his wife said, I hope, you know, everyone focuses on his career and his life rather than the way he died. Let's talk about legacy. What does he leave behind? What is his legacy? Shaun, sorry about that.

SHAUN ROBINSON, ACCESS HOLLYWOOD: Well, you know, Don, you read the president's statement on the passing of Robin Williams not too long ago. He called Robin Williams one of a kind. And he said that this was a profound loss for everybody out there.

And what the president said about Robin Williams was true. He was really one of a kind. Nobody could do an interview like Robin Williams could do an interview. I mean, he just had such an infectious personality and he just lit up that room.

And just so very, very talented, this man who, you know, is an Oscar winner and had all these awards. But still, was a very humble man. We just saw a picture of him that was taken not long ago, just a couple weeks ago where he looked very frail and just not, there wasn't that light in his eyes anymore. And as I said, just previously to you, you know, it's time for us to start reaching out and making sure people are OK.

Now, Robin Williams is definitely somebody who we knew could mask the pain because when he got in front of that camera, it lit up. But I really think it's time that we start making sure that people, you know, that we start checking on people to make sure they're doing OK. I'm just all about, you know, just empathy and positivity. And this really hurts my heart like it hurts the heart of so many people. Because they were saying, we didn't know. We didn't know that he was so depressed and that he was thinking there was no way out of whatever he was going through.

TURNER: And just to touch on what Shaun said about his legacy guys. Of course, he was an Emmy winner, an Oscar winner, a Grammy winner, but he was also a philanthropist. Don't forget about comic relief. He raised millions of dollars with comic relief to help others along with Billy Crystal and Whoopi Goldberg and did a lot of good while he was still entertaining a lot of people. So we also can add that to his legacy.

CAMEROTA: Michael.

LEVINE: He certainly did. Having represented so many comedians throughout the years, I can tell that you there is a special problem associated with depression and comedians. You know, so many comedians who appear so funny, so jovial, are often very, very sensitive people with a lot of down spirit. But they're not always recognized that way because of the public persona. And I think Robin was that in spades. I mean, his uniqueness was profound. And so, I think it is very difficult for an average person to associate depression with comedians, particularly when they're so uniquely gifted as Robin was.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much to all of you for coming on with your remembrances of Robin. It has been great to talk to you and get your personal take. I was also interested to hear that Robin went cold turkey. He had an alcohol and drug problem in the '80sand and he went cold turkey after John Belushi's death, someone whom he idolized. And he thought, that I'm not going to do that anymore.

LEMON: Yes. He helped a lot of people as Shaun and Nischelle pointed out and maybe this will help some people, at least to help break a stigma for issues like this.

We have a lot more to get to tonight including the human toll in Iraq and the struggle in Baghdad that could make the situation even worse.

Also, the armed teenager shot to death by a cop in St. Louis suburb. Protests going on again there tonight with. A very emotional interview with the mother and father of Michael Brown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back everyone. Another night of protests tonight in Ferguson, Missouri, after the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown on Saturday. He was shot to death by a police officer while he was unarmed.

I want to go straight to our national correspondent Jason Carroll who is in Ferguson, Missouri tonight.

Jason, police are on standby. It has calmed down a bit now. What's going on?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, a little while ago, Don, things were really tense not far from here. We went out to the scene where we saw a number of police officers trying to disperse a crowd that had gathered near a McDonald's. They fired tear gas. As we were standing there, they repeatedly got on the loud speaker. Officers in riot here telling people to disperse, to go back inside their homes. And most of the people we saw there actually were standing on their front lawns. Standing on the sidewalks, obeying the law, doing what they need to do.

But there were a number of agitators there and police were able to diffuse the situation to get the people to move back. They didn't want another repeat of what they saw out here last night, violent number of people looting and doing things in that manner.

What we're seeing here in front of the police station right now is a small group of people who have gathered on one side of the street peacefully. On the other side of the street you have a number of officers who are simply standing by and watching and waiting.

And that's what we've really been seeing all night long -- peaceful sort of demonstrators like this and then small pockets of violence. Other than that, the officers who have been out here talking to us basically saying, they're going to keep monitoring the situation. Trying to get a handle on things and trying to get people to disperse before things turn ugly like they did last night.

LEMON: Take us inside, if you will, to the crime scene. I understand that you went there today, Jason. What did you learn?

CARROLL: Yes. I mean, it is -- you know, when you go out there, Don, and I know you've been in a lot of urban communities before. And you've heard this sentiment over and over again. And I was speaking to one young man who said I go to school. I obey the law. And yet when I come in and out of my community, I'm constantly stopped by the police.

And this is a theme that I heard over and over again. And basically, what everyone was telling me, what that to Michael Brown was really the tipping point for many members of this community. When this happened to him that is why you saw so much anger which had been bubbling for quite some period of time, come to the surface. There is clearly a breakdown of a relationship between the police department and members of the African-American community here. And that's why you saw what happened here.

And when I went out to the scene, you know, you see people leaving cards. And you know, you have seen the makeshift memorials pop up over and over again. But what I really got a sense of is this feeling of distrust between the police department and the community here.

LEMON: Jason Carroll, thank you very much.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: How are you dealing with this right now?

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: The best that I can.

LEMON: Yes. Your son Michael had just graduated from high school. He was set to start college today. Tell us about him and what kind of a young man he was.

MCSPADDEN: Well, you know, he was my first born. Sweet, loving, dedicated. He worked hard to get through high school and we are so proud of him. And for him to start a new journey going to college, he was even more proud of. And he was just spending the summer in his grandmother's house. And every day we think would be planning a funeral. He was waiting on his first day of school. And they robbed us of that. They took one of my best friends.

LEMON: You were close.

MCSPADDEN: That's my son. First child I ever had.

LEMON: It's hard to convey a parent's agony, especially a mother's agony for losing a child. And I thought what you said was so profound about getting him to stay in school, getting him to go to college, graduate high school and to go college which has been a challenge. It is difficult for many African-American boys. Why did you feel the need to say that?

MCSPADDEN: Because it's true. It was the truth. And I needed them to know that people may do things and it becomes repetitive in a certain way but we didn't, we don't live like that, not our family. We feel like we can do anything and go anywhere. We're not subject to living in the city. And like I said, just because my son is a 6'4" black male walking down a city street, does not mean he fit the profile for any, anything other than just walking down the street. That's all he was doing.

LEMON: You said that --

MCSPADDEN: He didn't do nothing wrong.

LEMON: You said that he was your best friend. My mother is my best friend. And what she would say is that you shouldn't go before I should go. Your son should not die before you die. And sadly you have to say that. Are you OK, Lesley?

MCSPADDEN: I'll be OK, you know? I'm going to be OK. But right now I'm not. I'm not OK.

LEMON: Michael. You heard Lesley say it was her best friend. And you, how are you dealing with this?

MICHAEL BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: It's hard. He was my best friend too. It's hard not seeing him. Not talking to him on the phone. Him cracking jokes. Just playing around being him, you know, because I understood him, you know. It was just a bond we had, you know. I'm going to miss all of that. Like the memories in my head that will never go away. Good times.

LEMON: Your shirt says no justice. Why are you wearing the shirt?

BROWN: Because my son don't have justice. And we don't have no peace. If he has no justice, we won't get no peace.

LEMON: Benjamin Crump, I'm going to let you guys go. But I want to talk to you about what should people know about what's going to happen with this particular case? I'm sure you're going to make sure that story is told and it is told accurately. And as the father said, he doesn't believe now there is justice but there might be some justice for Michael Brown.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Yes. As Michael said, he will get justice. Him and Lesley have been steadfast that they will not stop until they get justice for their child. And you know, myself and a lot of the lawyers with the national bar association and various other organizations are committed to making sure the people in St. Louis know that they do deserve equal justice, that they do deserve due process, and that this is not right that their son was killed on a Saturday afternoon in broad daylight walking down the street, doing nothing wrong, just minding his business and yet he put his hands up and he is repeatedly shot by a police officer that's supposed to protect him.

It is not justified in any circumstance. And that's why it is so hard for Lesley and it is so hard for Michael to do these interviews. But they know they have to do it because they have to get justice for their child because if they get justice for their child, it helps change the system that says that no more is this going to happen. LEMON: Well, Michael, to you first and then to your wife. I'm just

going to say this to you. As a father, be strong. Make sure your family is OK but don't be afraid to break down and be vulnerable because you can do that as a man.

And to you, mom, I don't even know what to say to you except that every mother in this country, in this world is rooting for you. And so you stay strong. You have the entire world behind you. And if you ever, either of you need anything, you know how to get in touch with me personally.

Thank you. And I'm so sorry for your loss, truly sorry. Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Don.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Staggering loss. It is so hard to do those interviews. But you need to hear their voices and we are going to talk about what's going on with this. When it seems like a pattern in more unarmed black teenagers are being shot.

When we come back, we will talk about what it will take to get justice in this case and beyond.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. One side says 18-year-old Michael Brown pushed a police officer inside his car and somehow at least one shot was fired. The other side says that the teenager had his hands up in the air, ready to surrender. One thing we know for sure, there is a disturbing number of young unarmed black men being shot.

Joining me now to talk about this is Mark O'Mara, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney L.Z. Granderson who joins us as well. He is a commentator and senior writer for ESPN Live.

Thank you guys. You know, it's tough to do these stories, obviously. And Mark, having read what you said earlier, you said that the autopsy will really be the key here to being completed to find out exactly what happened.

MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first my prayers are with the Brown family. And yes, forensics are going to play a big role in this case. As I said in some of these other cases that we have talked about, Don. If in fact the forensics supports what the witnesses say, that Michael was shot when he was either on the ground or with his hands in the air, then obviously it is going to be a real tough call for the police officer to justify that type of action. On the other hand, if there is some other forensics that might explain away this tussle that he was suggesting happened in the car. That is going to be important.

I do think that even with the outrage which is understandable when yet another black male is dead unarmed and in the street by a cop. We do need to try and hold on. Listen to the facts as they come out. The one thing about this case, we will get justice. Justice defined this way. An adversarial system will happen with both sides represented in the lightest public scrutiny. And I think that will help.

CAMEROTA: L.Z., you wrote a poignant piece for CNN.com. I want to read to our viewers a portion of it. You say, I am tired, tired of our streets being peppered with dead, unarmed black people. Tired of listening to armed assailants describe how they fear for their lives. Tired of being told this has nothing to do with race.

Are you feeling as though there are more of these incidents in the past year than usual?

L.Z. GRANDERSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I just feel like this has gone on for decades and decades. You know, there was a tendency to think that once the civil rights movement, you know, went through and we had legislation, that thing would be better. We thought that perhaps the election of President Obama was a symbol that we were in a post racial society.

And what we see is that some of misconceptions and some of the stereo types that have plagued African-American men in this country, basically cynic the end of slavery, continues to haunt us today.

Now, some of that, obviously is perpetuated by African-American culture itself. But some of it is perpetuated by other things such as institutionalized racism and just a generalized distrust. And I'm just tired of people looking at African-American men, seeing them gunned down in our streets unarmed, and start to dissect what they did wrong as opposed to giving that person the benefit of the doubt as you would if it was a victim of a different color. That's what I'm tired of.

LEMON: Yes. And you know, it is always -- well, he must have been doing something wrong if he was shot down by police, not necessarily. That's not necessarily the case. And let's talk about Ferguson, right, which is a suburb of St. Louis.

If we can put this up, this is from the Missouri police department and from the state of Missouri about the 2013 statistics about traffic stops, 5384 white residents folks 47 percent., black residents 86 percent of the stops, total arrest 521, white residents 6.9, black residents 92.7. Again, Missouri attorney general's office.

And there is another one that shows the amount of contra band that they got when they stopped these people from 2013. White residents, 34.04, black residents, 27.71.

Even though they stopped more blacks, more whites had contraband. And people are looking at this, L.Z., as an indication of some sort of, that young black men, that black men are being profiled when it comes to that town.

GRANDERSON: We have looked at the metrics of the stop and frisk situation in New York City how many despite the number of stop and frisk incidents, how little was turned up in terms of illegalities. We also know the number of arrests in terms of African-Americans and

marijuana is significantly higher among African-Americans than it is in just white counter parts, despite the fact that white counterparts smoke as much if not more than the black people.

So you know, time and time again we've seen this discrepancy. And I'm not trying to say that if you're a white person, listen to this now, that you're inherently racist. What I am saying is we have had a long strand of institutionalized racism and cultured imagery that continues to fuel the way that both our law enforcement but also every day citizens view black people and African-American men in particular. And we need to have an honest conversation about that as they are trying one of each other but our tragedies.

CAMEROTA: Mark, I mean, the numbers that Don just read are staggering. That yes, there are twice as many blacks in Ferguson, Missouri, than there are whites. But they're pulled over and stopped seven times as much as white people are. So what's the answer here?

LEMON: It's not just Ferguson. It's all over the country, I'm sure.

O'MARA: Yes. I was going to say exactly, Don. This is not just Ferguson. You can't look at Ferguson and say they are a racist society because of the way Ferguson treats the young black males because those number all throughout the country. If there is anything that is going to come from Michael Brown's death, because there will be another. Another month from now, there will be another one of these.

What it is showing, what we finally have to realize is that there is a toxic interaction and intersects between law enforcement and young black males. And if you want to blame one, a 100 percent over the other, you are ignoring the reality of it. Obviously, the cops have to be better trained with sensitive -- sanitizing about how to interact with black male. And unfortunately, the black community is going to have to also accept some responsibility for this toxic interaction. If we don't, the conversation that L.Z. just said we need to have is never going to take place. What we are going to have is continuing screaming matches every time a young black male gets shot by somebody.

CAMEROTA: When you say takers of the black male that take responsibility, what does that look like?

O'MARA: Well, we know that young black males are in the system well more than they should be. And we also know that when we look at the statistics, that we can blame a certain amount of that on the systemic view. You can look and see the whole criminal justice system is slanted in a way that is prejudicial towards young black males.

But if we were suggest that is 100 percent of the fault of the system and nothing to do with the way young black males interact with law enforcement, what we really doing is ignoring the mistrust that is build up in the young black male population because of the way they're treated. Not an excuse for them, what I am saying is we have to come to terms that this is a problem both sides are going to have to address if it is going to get resolved, at least reduced.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate that.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much.

All right, coming up, our other big story tonight, ISIS and their reign of terror in Northern Iraq, how did they get so strong? We'll look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: I want to call your attention to your television screen to show you this incredible scene today in Sinjar mountain in northern Iraq. That's where thousands of desperate Yazidis are holed up trying to escape the ISIS terrorists.

CNN's Ivan Watson was on a helicopter attempting a dangerous rescue mission and he shows us what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Machine gunners unleashed bursts of hot metal. This is the crew aboard an Iraqi air force helicopter. It burns and cartridges and belts of ammunition while rushing an aircraft full of food, diapers, water and baby's milk over ISIS' frontlines for civilian trapped on Sinjar mountain.

They're opening fire at targets down below. They're clearly trying to defend the aircraft. We can see the people below. Trapped on Sinjar mountain. They're clustered. They're clustered under all the trees right now, waving to us. They seem to have gathered in these shelters down here. A lot of women and children waving.

The crew hurls packages out the door. People swarm the chopper.

This has been one chaotic aid distribution. I mean, I really hope we didn't hurt anybody with the bottles of water we were throwing down from a height of 20, 30 feet. It's chaotic. People were waving, giving thumbs up. And there are a number people very relieved to be off the mountain and clearly very, very frightened.

Then the helicopter lands one last time to pick up more passengers.

Here they come. More desperate people throw themselves at the aircraft, having their children on board. It's first come first served. There were some who couldn't make it. Aboard the aircraft, shock, exhaustion, fear that eventually gives way to relief.

I can't describe to you how relieved people are right now. They're just shocked in the chaos of that moment. But we've got this little girl here. She's not happy because she said her father got left behind.

The gunners are opening fire on targets below. They're protecting the helicopter. But it's terrifying these little kids who are traumatized after their week trapped on that mountain. The problem is, we're flying over ISIS' frontlines. This is the only protection we have right now to protect the aircraft and its precious cargo.

Tensions ease when we cross over into Kurdish controlled territory. For a moment there are even smiles as these children realize, their ordeal on the mountain is finally over.

Ivan Watson, CNN over Sinjar mountain in northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

I CAMEROTA: van Watson has been doing incredible reporting for us.

We're joined now by Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst and former U.S. military attache in Syria and Juliette Kayyem is CNN national security analyst and a former senior official in the department of homeland security.

It is great to have you both. Rick, what do you think of that video that we just showed and only select people could get on the helicopter? Some are still trapped on the mountain top.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, amazing. I mean, you can only help so many. They probably can pull off, you know, 20 to 30 at a time. We have to do more of that. But that's not the answer. There are thousands of people stranded on that mountain. This is going to require a full scale humanitarian effort and it goes beyond a few Iraqi air force helicopters.

CAMEROTA: Juliette, you know, the mission has been described in terms of getting ISIS as limited in scope. The president has said that over and over. They're destroying convoys. It doesn't sound as though they're going after the leadership of ISIS or if they even know where they are. What do you think of the mission?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think it is probably or it is absolutely justified at this stage and ought to be limited. I mean, for one, we just want to disrupt ISIS. The leadership, its organization, how it is able to terrorize certain areas of Iraq. We want to protect U.S. interests both in Kurdish areas, but of course throughout the Middle East. And essentially, disrupt an entity that has gotten very large, very organized, very quickly. And so, that ought to be the mission. It is a combination of humanitarian and strategic. And that's absolutely right at this stage with no troops on the ground.

CAMEROTA: Colonel Francona, I want to tell you -- I want a quote for you something that Hillary Clinton has been talking about. She gave an interview to the Atlantic magazine. And she talked about how she basically disagreed with the limited scope approach that she thinks President Obama has favored.

Let me read to you a clip of that. She said the failure to help build up a credible fighting force of the people who were the originators of the protests against Assad. She is talking about what happened in Syria, of course. There were Islamists, there were secularists, there was everything in the middle. The failure to do that left a big vacuum which the jihadists have now filled. Do you think she's right? That what we're seeing with ISIS now in Iraq traces back to Syria?

FRANCONA: Absolutely. I think she is spot on with that analysis. That's exactly what happened in Syria. We saw this power vacuum open up when no one in the west would help the free Syrian army. The secularist, who when we had a real opportunity to do something that could make a difference. So you have this power vacuum that was filled. Not just by what is now called ISIS. Back then it was the Islamic State in Iraq. They moved in Syria. But you also had an Al Qaeda affiliate, a group called the Victory Front (INAUDIBLE). And both of them filled that vacuum. They came in very effective fighters and they turned the tide when the FSA was about to collapse. And that's that great big mess we're seeing in Syria right now.

CAMEROTA: Juliette, do you think that had we armed the Syrian rebels, that we wouldn't be fighting ISIS?

KAYYEM: I think there's something about the blinding clarity of hindsight. I think we can't know and to be fair to Hillary Clinton, she actually says that at the end of the article. We couldn't know at that stage or this age, whether arming the rebels would have necessarily stopped what we're seeing in the Middle East now or whether arming the rebels who were complicated, to say the least. Some were secular. A lot of them, we didn't know who they were. Some were affiliated with Al-Qaeda, whether that would have been more or less disrupted to Syria, let alone Iraq.

What we have now is a situation that we, obviously, have to stop. But I am not convinced that it is as simple as had we done this several years ago, it would have stopped what we're seeing in Iraq.

Look. We intervened in Libya. And look at Libya now. I mean, each case is different. And none of them are good, unfortunately, given the dynamics of what is happening in the Middle East, the lack of leadership. And essentially, what began this all, our intervention in Iraq in 2003.

CAMEROTA: Juliette and Rick, stick around, please. Because when we come back, ISIS is on a rampage through Iraq. As we have said, where will they strike next and what will it take to stop them?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The terrorist group ISIS controls substantial parts of northern Iraq where it is murdering and terrorizing countless numbers of people. We're back with Colonel Rick Francona and Juliette Kayyem.

Colonel, defense secretary Hagel said today the air strikes have been quote, "very effective against ISIS.' Do we know what that means and how many ISIS members have been taken out?

FRANCONA: They've released some numbers. It is in the low, you know, 20, 30. That's not the point. He said they're being effective. They're being effective at what they're aimed at. Their goal right now is to assist in the humanitarian operation around Sinjar mountain. They're doing that. They're allowing the Kurds to get in there and open a corridor. That's good.

Over in Erbil, they're keeping ISIS at bay and keeping them away from making the advance on the city. That's all well and good. But that's as far as it goes. They're not striking ISIS in a big manner. They're not going after what I call core ISIS. They're not hitting them that Mosul. They're not going after the troop formations as probably they should. I know the president wants to wait until we have some sort of inclusive government in Baghdad. But I'm not sure we have the time, the luxury of time to do that because ISIS remains on the move. So I think it is a more critical issue than I think we're looking at. I would like to see more air strikes all over the area. Not just isolated to Erbil and the Sinjar area.

CAMEROTA: And Juliette, what about sending more arms to the Kurds? I know the defense department is debating that. But what is there to debate? Isn't that the answer?

KAYYEM: Yes. And I think they're debating quantity at this stage, not whether. And one can assume also we're giving lots of help through third countries as well as intelligence. So that's just the way it works. And even if it is not direct from us to the Kurds, there will be other ways that we can support the Kurds.

And that's absolutely necessary. Look. It is a safe and protected Kurdish population is in America's best interests. It doesn't simply have to do with American personnel there. It obviously has to do with our energy and oil interests and the challenge that we have of sort of increasing military strikes in Iraq is that, of course, Iraq is a sovereign country. Right now in the middle of a very, very difficult, I guess you could call it, a government transition.

CAMEROTA: But they're asking for our help.

KAYYEM: Yes. Right.

But to expand it geographically at this stage is not something that we ought to do without the full support of what might be at some stage, relatively soon, a unified Iraqi government.

CAMEROTA: Rick, let's talk more about the threat at home. Should we be more concerned in the U.S. that ISIS will turn their focus to us?

FRANCONA: Eventually. I don't see this as an immediate threat. But I think it is a potential threat. If ISIS is allowed to retain territory in that space between Baghdad and Damascus, if they're able to set up what they want to call the Islamic State, and they have territory. I would likened this to Afghanistan in 1996. They're going to set up an area where they're sovereign and they can allow training to go on and we could see something in a few years down the road, where they mount some sort of attack against the United States. But I don't think we are going to see an ISIS attack in the United States next week. But it is something we need to address. And as long as ISIS remains a viable entity, that threat always exists.

CAMEROTA: Well, let's that hope you're right. That we are not going to see some sort ISIS connection here in the United States. But Juliette, an alleged ISIS sympathizer was arrested at JFK. So it

seems as though perhaps, they do have U.S. passports and maybe making inroads.

KAYYEM: Right. So there's a couple things. I mean, first is, of course, there is going to be people who are sort of self-pro claiming as adherence to ISIS or people who are sort of want be terrorists as this guy in New York would describe it.

So unfortunately in the world we live in, those people are always going to exist. And our counter terrorism efforts are a little like whack-a-mole that you're just constantly trying to stop them before they go to the next stage. So that's the first thing. And that unfortunately is just a part of the post 9/11 world.

But I would agree that there is no reason to believe there is an imminent threat right now. Not simply based on intelligence but because ISIS has not shown its interests in being a global threat. Its particular interests right now is in Iraq. We have to continue to monitor it, disrupt it, break it up so it doesn't become a threat. Not just to the United States, but of course, to out the western allies who are much closer geographically.

LEMON: Juliette, what are we doing? What needs to be done to contain ISIS? I know that Rick Francona said he thinks the strikes should be bigger. What really needs to be done to contain is?

KAYYEM: Well, I think what we have to do is disrupt it. We have to support a sovereign and strong Iraq as well as Iraqi defense that they can't -- that this is essentially their war, right? This is their internal problem that we need to protect, the Kurds for both strategic and humanitarian interests. And then also use all the other tools of national security.

So it's not simply military. It is our intelligence efforts, our diplomacy. It is our law enforcement efforts as well as homeland security. So people are very worried about members of ISIS being American citizens.

But right now, there, you know, anyone with a U.S. passport who has gone missing for a couple months in Iraq or Syria is certainly going to be looked on upon return to the U.S. So all of the different pieces are working together to protect us.

LEMON: Juliette and Rick, thank you very much. We'll be right back.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

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LEMON: Erin Burnett and Rose Mary Church are up next. But before we leave you, another great moment from Robin Williams, this is him in "Patch Adams".

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