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Don Lemon Tonight

Indonesia Has Found Location Of Plane

Aired December 30, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: It is 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. Thanks for joining us. I'm Don Lemon. We have breaking news on Flight 8501. Indonesia has found the location of the plane. It is at the bottom of the Java Sea. It is shown on a sonar image, but officials cannot confirm reports that the plane is upside down.

Joining me now to talk about all of this, CNN safety analyst, David Soucie. David, you have been with us here all day here on CNN. When you and I last spoke, it was last night, late last night, close to midnight, there had really, nothing had been found.

An hour after we left, they started getting debris. They were 95 percent sure it was debris from the plane. Here we are, almost 24 hours after you and I spoke last night, and now sonar images of the plane.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: As unprecedented as MH-370 was of not getting information. This is almost as unprecedented as how quickly the information came to us. So I'm very impressed with that again and I think that this is going to be used as lessons learned as to how to run an investigation like this.

LEMON: You know, I found it interesting when -- as we have been discussing this. We are talking about the condition of the bodies. Whether the body some had clothes. Some were clothed. Some weren't. But that does give you an indication as to what happened. That is a very pertinent question that you ask in an accident investigation?

SOUCIE: In my investigations, what I request because the search-and- rescue teams typically go in there and deal with the bodies, a lot of times as an investigator the bodies have already been removed when you go there. But one of my requests is that the bodies stay until someone gets there.

Because again the families and -- of the victims, want to make sure this doesn't happen again. So you don't want to disturb that site. You want to make sure that the clues that are -- that you can get from those bodies are -- are documented before their bodies are removed.

LEMON: All right, stay with me. I'm going to rely on you as we continue to report this breaking news. I want to bring in now, CNN's Gary Tuchman. He is live for us in Surabaya, Indonesia. Gary, any reaction to this where you are?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, not yet, Don. The families are inside an area here at the Surabaya Airport right behind me where you see a lot of other people standing. The public and the news media is not allowed inside that room so we don't have initial receive action.

But what we can tell you about like here at this airport. It's a very strange juxtaposition. This is the second largest city in Indonesia, consummate 250 million people, big country. It's a very busy airport and it's so strange.

Because there are so many joyous people at the airport coming in and going out, celebrating, laughing, and children having a great time. This end of the airport, you have the family members just waiting for any word whatsoever.

Right now, there is no immediate reaction. We can tell you though that there are about 70 to 80 family members in the room at any given time. They are getting all the support they need. When they have questions, officials coming in and try to answer them.

Their most fervent hope right now is for the bodies of their loved ones to be found. That's what they're hoping for.

LEMON: Gary, can we talk about the weather conditions where you are because even though they spotted it on sonar, they still have how to get to it. So what's going on with the weather and is there -- the possibility of it hampering this recovery effort?

TUCHMAN: But what may have caused this crash is what is making it difficult to recover the remains of the people who were on the plane and the black boxes. The weather was very bad. This is monsoon season.

Water is relatively shallow, maybe no more than 100 feet deep, which is less than the depth of some of the areas of the Great Lakes in the United States. In that sense that makes it easier to conduct the search, but it's gray. It's murky. It's foggy. The waves are roiling.

We just came on a flight a short time ago from the island of Bali to this island. It's a very turbulent flight. We couldn't see anything until we landed and that's what's making it very difficult.

But the fact is they do believe they know exactly where the plane is. This is not exactly like the Malaysia air crash from March where they still don't know where it is.

They recovered at least six of the bodies including one flight attendant. So that being said they know where they're looking, just very difficult conditions.

We can anticipate, we don't this for sure. We are going to anticipate, Don, that when the conditions get better they will get much easier to conduct the search.

LEMON: All right, stand by, Gary. Don't go anywhere because I'm going to come back to you. But I want to get now to Mary Schiavo, on the phone. She is a former inspector general for the Department of Transportation, and of course, she is now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents.

Mary, as -- Mary, I want to read you the very latest just to make sure that you are up on it. The SAR, search-and-recovery, they found the location of the plane, the location of the plane using sonar technology. It's at the bottom of the Java Sea.

At the moment, they still don't know if the plane is in one piece or it's broken up, but it is big enough for them to locate it. The official we spoke to could not confirm the report.

It's being reported by "The Wall Street Journal" that the plane was turned upside down. Mary, what do you think of this new information?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST (via telephone): Well, it is very important and very useful information. And particularly what we want to hear is also that the tail portion of the fuselage is still on, which would give them the black boxes we hope.

But the fact that it is upside down, we may not be able to tell anything. Obviously, if the plane had an aerodynamic stall, it can fall to the earth like a leaf, kind of belly first or it could, you know, could be spinning down.

But that doesn't really matter because once it hits the water, even if it caught one wing or the other, it could be turned upside down in the crash sequence.

But with very large pieces like that, you would think that perhaps it did fall belly first like that Air France 447 and absorb some of the impact with the water to have a big piece like that survive.

LEMON: Well, Mary, remember when we talked about this for MH-370. People were asking -- is there a chance? That it is fully intact on the bottom of the ocean? How might that happen?

Even if it is a large chunk of the plane, it seems not entirely possible that that could happen. That's what at least for 370 that seemed to be the expert opinion. It wouldn't been be possible for this to happen.

SCHIAVO: For 370, I think everyone was assuming that there wasn't an aerodynamic stall, that it hadn't fallen from the sky, from flight level, 3600 -- from 36,000 feet and that, perhaps, as it ran out of fuel, we are talking 370 that it continued to fly.

The airplane, you know, basically on its own kept itself going, coming down pretty straight in level and then resting -- settling in on the ocean. Here I don't think there is any possibility of that having lost control.

We think up at 36,000 feet. So, the fact there is a big piece is fortunate. I don't think we will find the plane completely intact. We know that because there had already been the bodies that have been found.

LEMON: Yes. So if it's -- say the plane is upside done again. That is "The Wall Street Journal" reporting. Does that really say anything? Could it be the currents?

SCHIAVO: It could.

LEMON: Yes.

SCHIAVO: Yes. It could be either -- it could have come down that way or it could have turned in as it hit the water.

LEMON: So if there is a big section as you were saying and it -- the first place they're going to look is in the tail. That is good news at least when it comes to getting the information about how this happened because Mary according to you, those boxes are in the tail section of the plane?

SCHIAVO: Right. If they remained like if at all that part of the plane remained on that piece. They could have them very, very quickly.

LEMON: Possibility that they could --

SOUCIE: The indicator that they're OK is the fact that, that, flight kit, that was in the back of the aircraft, the blue box that we saw in there. That was in the tail of the aircraft. That was kept in the tail of the aircraft. It was intact as you could see. Certainly these black boxes are much more structurally sound. I feel like there is a good possibility that they may be in very good condition.

LEMON: Either of you. Now that they have spotted the plane, how much longer before the recovery of bodies and then the plane itself, first to Mary and then David?

SCHIAVO: Well, I mean, the recovery of bodies. I mean, they're likely to do that very quickly because you know, any time, any motion is very damaging and it's also very respectful, now that they have it that will be their first order of business. They aren't mutually exclusive.

They can go retrieve the black boxes while the recovery of the -- of the bodies, of the human remains continues. I think that will be their first, you know, they're probably already -- planning to do that right now. They just won't delay on getting either, the human remains or the black boxes.

LEMON: Mary said that, you know, families -- as she has been working with families. They hate that word. Closure, David. Still, if, if the plane is intact. The possibility of them finding -- other remains of their loved ones, that these offer some hope for that. More hope for that.

SOUCIE: More hope that they will be returned in the condition that they're in, yes, certainly it is.

LEMON: Mary.

SCHIAVO: Yes, that's right. What they want is to be able to provide, you know, the respectful services and to have their loved ones. And, their -- their bodies, their remains, their property. Everything as I mentioned, every single item from that flight, the last thing that they touched, the last things that they did.

It becomes very, very important to the families to have those things back. So, and, by the way, once they do that even for things that they can't identify. There is a book that is prepared called unaccompanied items.

And then that is circulated to families to help them identify things, you know, property because they want that back too.

LEMON: All right, Mary Schiavo, thank you very much. David Soucie, thank you very much. Don't go anywhere. Gary Tuchman, as well in Surabaya, Indonesia, and we'll get back to Gary as well.

Here's the information that we have. The SAR, search-and- recovery has found the location of the plane using sonar technology. Again, CNN has just confirmed this. It is at the bottom of the Java Sea. At the moment they still don't know if the plane is in one piece or if it is broken up.

But the piece is big enough for it to be picked up on sonar. It looks look there is at least one big piece of the plane. Also the official could not confirm the report that the plane is turned upside down. Another news organization, "Wall Street Journal" is reporting that. More on the breaking news when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Don Lemon here. We are here with the breaking news from Indonesia. Flight 8501 has been found, the plane is at the bottom of the Java Sea. Officials say they cannot confirm reports that the plane is upside down or if it is one piece. But there is a big enough chunk of the plane that it was picked up on sonar.

I want to bring in now CNN's Gary Tuchman in Surabaya, Indonesia and also our aviation experts are joining us here, David Soucie. Mary Schiavo is going to join us here. Les Abend will join us in just a moment as well as Captain Petitt.

So standby for all of that, but first to Gary. Gary, here's what we know. They found the location of the plane using sonar technology. Again, it's at the bottom of the sea. At the moment they don't know if it is one piece. That's according to the chief of search-and-rescue there.

When last I spoke to you, I asked you about the families, had they gotten the information and if they are reacting to this news yet?

TUCHMAN: Here's what I can tell you for sure, Don. The families have not come out, but I can guarantee you the families knew about this before you and I knew about this. They're being told everything. The communication is very good, huge difference between now and almost 10 months ago with the Malaysia air crash.

When you had so many angry family members who could not believe what was going on. They weren't being given information. These people, these poor people who are suffering so much, while -- their loved ones are being looked for in the Java Sea right now have been telling us they're getting the information they need.

Certainly they're sad and they are horrified, and their lives have changed forever, but they're being given the information. It is happening here in the Surabaya Airport behind me, 70 to 80 family members inside right now. They haven't come out.

They're having people coming in, officials who are giving them the information whenever they need it. What I told you before. An important point to re-emphasize, the main question they're asking is, when can I get my father, sister, brother, mother, wife? When can I get them back? They have given up hope they're alive, but they want their bodies back.

LEMON: Gary, I understand you flew into the area not long ago and you said the conditions are bad. So even though they have found this plane or they have located it on sonar that still doesn't mean that they're going to get to it quickly.

TUCHMAN: Well, that's right. I flew on another Indonesian airline, a commuter plane from Indonesian island of Bali connecting to this airport here, a couple of hours ago. The conditions were not good. Nothing I haven't seen before, with all the flying that we do in our job, Don.

But it was very foggy, very windy, very blustery. When I was able to see the waves and the water, they seemed to be high when we were low enough level to see them.

So you could see how the conditions are not bad for the search. That indeed that might be the reason that this, plane crash happened because of bad conditions. It is important to emphasize. Talk to your experts about this, will say the same thing.

Bad weather doesn't cause crashes. We fly in bad weather all the time. It is unfortunate mistakes, errors, bad luck that goes with the bad weather. But we don't want people to be scared to fly. There is bad weather all the time. We don't know what led to this crash happening after what appeared bad weather when this plane took off.

LEMON: Very good point, Gary Tuchman. Stand by. David Soucie, our aviation analyst, our safety analyst here, on CNN, he is -- that is a very good point that he makes. Planes fly in bad weather all the time.

SOUCIE: They do. I used to do testing on the manufacturing line and my job was to break the wings. So we would try to break the wings and lift them, and try to make sure that they broke. There are on much smaller jets than these. But nonetheless they're designed to flex. They are designed to

absorb the movement. So, again, as he said, to be afraid to fly because of this incident is not, not reasonable.

LEMON: Stand by. I want to update our viewers and get back to Gary Tuchman again. That they have found the location of the plane using sonar, it appears to be a big, section of the plane. They are not sure if it intact or not.

At Gary Tuchman's location now, want to get to him because there are families who are coming out. Gary, what can you tell us? What is going on?

TUCHMAN: I want to give you a look right now, Don, just as we finished talking with you, family members started walking out of the room. They look somber as you might expect. We're being told that they're going to participate in some type of ceremony in memory of their loved ones.

But this is the first we have seen of them since this news happened. After we are done talking to you, we'll inquire with them gently. I might add, sensitively, I might add and see what they have found out about the situation.

LEMON: You said they're somber, but no visible reaction except for being somber?

TUCHMAN: No. You know, what we have seen before, Don, we have covered other disasters including the Malaysia air crash almost ten months ago is people crying, yelling, screaming and hysterical. Not just right after but days after. These people, they almost look business like.

They look sad and they are somber, but we don't see any one crying right now. We just see them coming out with a sense of purpose. That purpose might be a ceremony. We are being told now, this hot off the press from my, wonderful producer, saying that there is going to be a prayer service in the airport.

Apparently the public might be allowed to participate in also, but that's where these family members are going. Inside the airport, what I told you before, Don. It's a very strange juxtaposition. This airport is very crowded with holiday travelers.

People coming in and out and like many places in Europe and Asia, the arrival portions of the airport are full of relatives. There is a lot of screaming and happiness and joy inside this airport. So may be an unusual scene as they go into the public part of the airport for what appears to be a prayer service about to take place.

LEMON: And I think you are exactly right for saying that gently. As you can see Gary is standing back away from the family members. And if they do decide to talk us, speak to, no pressure to do it. Gary, stand by. If you need to go report, we will certainly understand.

Mary, I want to -- I want to talk, touch on something that Gary said there, the family members almost being business like. Mary Schiavo is a former inspector general for the Department of Transportation and is now an attorney that represents families of transportation accidents.

It's a difference between the way Airasia handled this and Malaysia Airlines handled it. They're giving these families information. They're not at a point where they are begging for information. It has been days, days, days, not getting anything. That makes a huge difference.

SCHIAVO: Absolutely. And it makes no sense whatsoever to withhold information from the families because they will get it eventually. So why treat them disrespectfully and keep them in the dark. There was a lack of understanding after MH-370 by the country and airline about people that needs to have the information and that in the long run, they are going to have it.

Don't treat them poorly in the short term and hopefully -- you know, it's not just lessons learned from 370. Airlines have consultants and people on staff. In the United States you are required to have it. It's part of our federal aviation regulations.

But you have people on staff who are equipped and capable, trained to deal with this, and providing information as you did. The number one thing that this is way the families should be treated. They're their customers and their responsibility.

LEMON: Mary, we talked about at least nine nations including the United States, China, Australia, all involved in this, Indonesia. So the question is, will it be the Indonesian government who will take the lead on this recovery effort, who will?

SCHIAVO: Well, the Indonesian government has the right to decide and will decide who takes the lead. So far there has been no indication that there is any kind of turf warfare going on. I think in terms of the investigation, as to what happened, I do think that they will bring in perhaps, well, we know that Airbus will be coming in as a party to the investigation.

So that would -- cause things, perhaps the French BEA, the French version of the NTSB would come in and participate. Since they have invited other countries to help, they can set up a multinational investigative body to determine what happened and to issue the report.

Now remember they do have to also being an international flight they do have to follow or they should follow, ICAO, International Civil Aviation Organization guidelines. And that includes putting out the preliminary report as soon as they have the information to do it and cooperate among the nations whose citizens were on the plane.

LEMON: All right, standby, everyone. I would look to welcome our international viewers as well, our viewers from the United States and around the world. I'm Don Lemon.

Within in the last half hour, we have some breaking news here on CNN. Flight 8501 has been found. It has been found at the bottom of the Java Sea. It was located by sonar. They don't know yet if it is one piece and there is no word yet on when it will be recovered.

We'll continue on with this breaking news right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Don Lemon here on CNN. I want to welcome our international viewers as well. We have breaking news from Indonesia. Within the past half hour, Flight 8501 has been found. The plane is at the bottom of the Java Sea.

Officials cannot confirm reports the plane is upside down. It was spotted by sonar. Now want to bring in CNN's Will Ripley. He is joining us from Beijing. Will, what's the reaction if any in -- from Beijing?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is certainly, makes it real for the families because we know that there was debris. We know that there were several bodies pulled out of the water. But what had not been found up until now within the past few minutes. Pardon me, Don. Let me put my microphone on. We just arrived back here in the office after the news.

So what I was saying is, up until now, there had been debris, there had been several bodies found. But this is what really makes it real is the discovery of the plane because this is where it is presumed that the majority of the passengers will be.

So all of the hospitals that have been preparing now for days to identify the passengers as they're taken out of the wreckage -- this is going to be when all of that kicks into effect. It also makes it more real for the families here, MH-370 families, who have been watching this so closely. Praying that perhaps -- maybe some -- there were some sort of a miracle.

We kept hearing that over and over again. People that nearly ten months after the disappearance of Flight 370, they still believe that there is a chance that their loved ones could be alive. But when you face the reality that now a fuselage is sitting at the bottom of the Java Sea.

You know sadly that's not going to be the case for the Airasia families. Flight 370 families still have those questions lingering in their minds to this day, but this has been a very difficult week for them just as it has been for the families in Indonesia -- Don.

LEMON: Stand by because I want you to react to this. Bring in David Soucie, who is our safety analyst. They're bringing in -- and Les Abend as well. They're bringing in "USS Samson" has arrived in the search and also the Pentagon says that are being prepared to bring more information, more resources and more assets. Will they need this now?

SOUCIE: What that will be is the platform. That's where they start. That's the command center. They have to have that out there because last thing you need is going back and forth too much. You put it there. It's a place to retrieve and catalog any evidence that you have and also to start identifying the bodies with the DNA kits they have now.

They might be able to identify some remains there before even taking them back to these hospitals. But I think there is a good position that they're going to need that. If they've bring the aircraft up. They will need it. That has not been determined yet.

LEMON: Will, the Pentagon says another is being prepared beside the USS Samson. I would imagine even though if they have spotted this plane at least on sonar, they're still going to need as many assets, as many resources as possible to get the plane off the ocean floor and also to recover more body and more debris.

RIPLEY: Absolutely. When you look at different types of accidents that involve an aircraft certainly which, you know, sinks down in rapid speed or even in South Korea where we had the ferry. That went down. You know that, occasionally there are people -- that, that, for whatever reason, due to the force of impact, or they are not in the aircraft.

That's why we have seen some of the passengers recovered floating on the surface. They were seen, in graphic, live, television images across Asia. People didn't want to see it. There was no warning. It popped up on the screen.

Yes, the immediate area will be the main focus. They're going to need to search all around the plane. You will have a painful process. People are brought back. Take a look at information families have given them, the pictures, the DNA information and then these families are going to have to identify their loved ones.

LEMON: All right, thank you, Will Ripley. We'll get back to you as we continue on here. I want to bring in now CNN's safety analyst, David Soucie and also 777 pilot, Les Abend, and joining me now on the phone

is a 330 pilot, Karlene Petitt and also Mary Schiavo as well. What's your reaction to this, Les?

LES ABEND, 777 PILOT: This is great. I mean, it's horrible news that these families have to celebrate 2015 in this regard if there is a celebration, of course. But finding this whole airplane, it seems for the information that we are getting right now. There is a fair portion of it intact.

What it says to me is -- there is a possibility that this -- this stall situation that we may have been talking about may have actually occurred. Dave and I have been conferring. It seems that there was a potential turn it was found 100 miles south of the last known position.

So that seems, seems very interesting to me. Still doesn't for me rule out the possibility of a mechanical issue.

LEMON: Doesn't? Why not? ABEND: Well, from the standpoint of they may have been -- if they had encountered any sort of icing similar to what, I hate to go you, know that direction because once again we are speculating. If they go in the direction of Air France 447, with the pito tubes did get blocked by ice. They may have been dealing with a lot of erroneous instrumentation issues in trying to determine what was going on with the airplane.

LEMON: Not getting the correct information. You touched on that earlier, Karlene, and you believe, and I don't know if you've still do, since they found, you know the chunk of the airplane. You still believe that it was weather related? There need to be more training when it comes to weather?

KARLENE PETITT, INTERNATIONAL PILOT (via telephone): Yes, definitely more so. Pilots are going to be flying the plane all the way down and unlike Air France. The first officer had the stick pulled back. The airplane literally fell like a maple leaf into the ocean.

Not until the captain knew what was happening. They've didn't have time to get out of it. The airplane had the same instruction. But he was trying to fly the airplane all the way down.

That would make complete sense that you know it didn't fall into the ocean. The same way Air France did. But the problem started, the same way with lots of instruments, and, you know, storm induced.

LEMON: You still believe weather, right?

PETITT: Yes, yes, definitely. Definitely. That started that chain of events, Don.

LEMON: So who is best here to explain this on our technology maybe David Soucie or it could be Karlene. How sonar technology found the plane how it was able to determine a plane and not something else?

SOUCIE: I would speculate that the sonar equipment was on the ship that was dispatched to the area because the only other way to do that is through hiydrosound testers sending out a signal. Much like the radar on the aircraft we are talking about.

It sends out a signal and then calculates the bounce-back from that and from that, it paints a picture of what the surface looks like based on how the wave within the water comes back to that receiver.

LEMON: What does this mean, Mary Schiavo, for the urgency here? Are they still sort of racing to get debris that is floating? Does this change the urgency at all?

SCHIAVO: Well, it doesn't change to get the urgency to anything floating, as far as any human remains. But yes, they will turn their attention now to this because one, they will know there are a large number of bodies in that part of the plane. And it will contain a lot of clues that they need to help them solve it. They won't have to pick up every piece of debris and analyze it

whether it is from the plane or not to establish the drift patterns so they can find the plane. That part is over. They no longer have to be worried about working out the search grid and drift patterns. Now, they can focus on -- getting the people out of the plane and black boxes too.

LEMON: All right, stand by, everyone. Our breaking news here tonight on CNN, Flight 8501 has been found at the bottom of the Java Sea. That is the breaking news. We will have more right after this very quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news tonight coming in just about 40 minutes or so ago that the Indonesian searchers using sonar equipment have located wreckage from Flight 8501 at the bottom of the Java Sea. At the moment they don't know if it is one piece or if it is broken up.

I want to go now to Jeffrey Thomas. He is the editor-in-chief of airlineratings.com. He joins us from Perth, Australia, via Skype. This happened pretty quickly, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY THOMAS, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, AIRLINERATINGS.COM: It did, Don. Mind you, they had ships in the area, about 32 ships in the area for the last 24, 36 hours, and a number of those have that sonar capability. But they have gone on to a very timely manner.

It brings closure to relatives in this terrible circumstance. I think they're going to find that the fuselage is breached. That's why we have got, six bodies on the surface. I think that's for certain.

What's going to be particular interest is what part of the airplane are the wings, the tile. Just to sort of try to understand whether the plane broke up in flight or remained intact all the way down to the ocean?

LEMON: That was my next question. It concerns that whether it was intact or what have you whether it was upside down. "The Wall Street Journal" is saying that the sonar is indicating that it may be upside down. Again not CNN, CNN reporting, CNN's reporting. What -- does that change anything for you? Does it have any meaning to you?

THOMAS: I don't know whether it is right way up or right side down. I don't necessarily think that's critical. I think the plane was out of control. I think there was a high altitude stall event. I don't think there is any doubt about that.

From the information we received from Indonesia, there's obviously something catastrophic happened. They weren't able to communicate. I think we can draw that. But, what is interesting, what may be interesting is, is this, is the vertical stabilizer.

Was it with the plane or is that some distance away. If the plane broke up in flight, the vertical stabilizer was torn away from the plane. That would -- that would give us more indications about what actually happened to the aircraft.

LEMON: What does all that mean for the black boxes? Would they have been ejected from the plane or still yet to be known?

THOMAS: Yet to be known, but I would suggest -- I would be almost certain that the black boxes are in the fuselage part of the tail. What I'm talking about is the vertical stabilizer part of the tail, the tailfin. And, it has happened in the past.

That in violent turbulence -- upsets associated with thunderstorms and mountain waves. The tail of the airplane is actually come adrift and that causes enormous problems and catastrophic problems.

LEMON: All right, Jeffrey Thomas, stand by. Back with me now, David Soucie, Les Abend, and on the phone with me, Karlene Petitt and Mary Schiavo, and CNN aviation analyst, Jeff Wise is also on the phone with us.

I need new ask you this because you said something about -- the number of planes that there are planes in the Java Sea. We should be careful because?

SOUCIE: I got a text from David Gallo, of course, who was involved in Air France 447 retrieval. He is an expert at the oceans and what is in the oceans. In this area he said that there is quite a bit of other debris, sunken ships.

There is other aircraft that are already in the ocean in that area as well. So he was hesitant. He said be careful about assuming that that is the aircraft until we a definitive information about it.

Because it could be the sonar is painting a picture of something that actually isn't the aircraft. So highly improbable, it looks like it is, but it's just a note to remember.

LEMON: Again, our information coming from the official at search-and- recovery. That's information they're giving us. That's what we are going with. The plane -- we heard from one of our other analysts here, last night who e-mailed us saying.

That -- that possibly they wouldn't have to pull the plane up. They may get -- what they need from the plane, the black boxes and whatever pertinent information and leave it.

SOUCIE: Right. Again, it's like peeling the onion and as you put the onion apart, and now you try to put it back together, you stop at the point at which you have conclusive evidence of what it was that happened because that's our goal.

Find out what happened and then produce mitigating strategies to make it doesn't happen again. The point you find out what happened. Black boxes may very well tell us exactly what happened. If the vertical stabilizer is torn off. That is critical information and it could prove conclusively.

LEMON: It came from Matthew Wald who was on the air with us last evening, an aviation expert and former "The New York Times" reporter, writer, I should say. Stand by, everyone. We will be back with more on Flight 8501 has been found at the bottom of the Java Sea. Next, a live report from Indonesia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back now to our breaking news tonight, Flight 8501 has been found at the bottom of the Java Sea. CNN's Gary Tuchman is in Surabaya, Indonesia where he has been speaking with family members of some of the passengers. Gary, what are you hearing from them?

TUCHMAN: Well, Don, the family members the last time we talk to are walking out of the room where they've been staying into part of the airport indeed. They're participating in a prayer service, which understandably is not open to the public. They are doing that right now.

But I did talk to a very kind gentleman who was walking in. This poor man lost his mother, lost his sister, lost his brother-in- law, the sister's husband, lost two nieces and a nephew, and one of the nieces fiance, seven people. Seven family members, he lost.

He talked to me and he confirmed to me that they have been told by officials that a sonar device has located the aircraft on the bottom of the Java Sea. I also did ask him, there are other reports that the plane is upside down.

We're not sure if it is in pieces or whole. He said they have not been told anything about that. Just that the airplane is on the bottom of the Java Sea. All the family members have been informed -- Don.

LEMON: Gary, when we last spoke, you said the family members found out before the media. They're being very cautious about giving information to the family, very sensitive about it and giving information to the family first before they read about it or see it on the news.

TUCHMAN: Yes, reasonably sure just based on taking the officials' words for granted. They're being open and honest. Indeed they have told them about that. Nevertheless, I should tell you although we are not seeing anger from the family members like we saw with Malaysia air.

The same gentleman did tell us, there is more information. Tell us more information. That's understandable. They want to know as much as they can. There may or may not be more information. We didn't see anger from other family members. This is being handled a whole lot better than Malaysia air incident in March.

LEMON: All right, Gary Tuchman, thank you very much. We'll get back to you. We'll be back with more on the breaking news, Flight 8501, found at the bottom of the Java Sea.

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LEMON: Back now with breaking news, Flight 8501 found at the bottom of the Java Sea. Back with me now, David Soucie, Les Abend, and with us by phone is Karlene Petitt, Mary Schiavo, and Jeff Wise.

Jeff, I want to get your reaction. I haven't spoken to you much this evening. What is your reaction to this new information about the plane being found or located on sonar?

JEFF WISE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST (via telephone): It happened so quickly. We were optimistically this would happen sooner or later probably not this soon. Normally what would happen is you would find debris on the surface and track back to the area where you would start doing a search or scan.

And where it is located to find the acoustics, the black box, and then you would know where you could do a sonar scan so you can image the bottom. And that's how it works. Somehow we seem to have skipped that step and used the sonar to detect the wreckage.

LEMON: So Karlene, will this in any way, we have been talking 449 -- 447. In any way will this locate some sort of anomaly in this particular aircraft because we have been talking about what's the speed indicator called again?

PETITT: No, I don't think, I don't think so at all. You can only push the airplane in such -- the mountain is beautiful, if you fly into it. No airplane can do that. We don't fly into storms. Any airplane of any kind fly into a storm of that magnitude is not going to survive very well. I've don't think we can blame the airplane.

The airplane is smart, efficient. The 447, taken the hand off and pulled it back, the air plan would have more likely flown through the storm without a problem. Just because of the data we got. This one it looked like it, it was pretty significant.

So, yes, I don't think this is an airplane. You saw the heavy jet at the altitude. It's coming down. There is not a lot you can do, you know, to save it. All the stall training is in smooth air, we don't do severe turbulence like inside a thunderstorm.

LEMON: So, Mary, this is what you did as former inspector general of Department of Transportation is to study this. As you are listening to what she is saying there, does this lead you to any direction or the other as to the cause of this particular crash?

SCHIAVO: Well, it shows to cause and one of the things I did as inspector general is recommend where we need additional laws or regulations. I think we need to look at, the U.S. has the rule about not flying into thunderstorms and staying, nautical miles away from thunderstorms. Maybe there need to be international guidelines. So we need to use this and every tragedy, moving forward. I think this will.

LEMON: Les, as a 777 pilot, Karlene is A-330 pilot indicated earlier there need to be more training when it comes to weather condition, more or better training, are you in agreement with that?

ABEND: Well, I think we get training sufficient to what the simulator can give us. That's an interesting idea with reference to getting a stall situation in turbulence. Not sure it would necessarily have helped with this particular circumstance.

Remember we have all been saying, David and I, since, MH-370, there is never just one factor. So I think there, there may be, you know, more than -- than just the stall and -- you know bad weather situation. I think there may be a lot more to it than meets the eye.

LEMON: Confluence of events. It's not usually just one thing.

ABEND: Exactly.

LEMON: You know, this is, they have recovered six bodies. This is a very difficult prospect to imagine, but the possibility of the rest of the passengers being inside of the plane, if it is, somewhat intact.

SOUCIE: That's right. That's right. Again in flight 447 that was indeed the case. There were passengers on board the aircraft still even at the bottom of the deep ocean certainly a possibility here. I am excited to find out that now we know where the aircraft is. The riddles, this massive riddles we have been going through and will continue to, are going to come together and be organized and answered as soon as the black boxes are retrieved.

LEMON: Thank you, everyone. Thank you for joining us this evening, Les Abend, Karlene Petitt, David Soucie, Mary Schiavo, and of course, Jeff Wise, as well.

I'm Don Lemon here at the CNN headquarters in New York. And our breaking news is going to continue here again, breaking news tonight is that Flight 8501 has been found. The plane is resting at the bottom of the Java Sea. The families of the passengers have been given the sad news at this point.

Our coverage is going to continue now with John Vause and Robyn Curnow at CNN Center in Atlanta. Good night.