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Don Lemon Tonight

Royal Sex Scandal Allegations; Fighting Back Against Sex Allegations; Murder of New York Hedge Fund Founder; Two NYPD Officers Shot; Six More Bodies Identified From Flight 8501

Aired January 05, 2015 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: It's 11:00 p.m. on the East Coast. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

Ripped from the headlines, two shocking stories making news around the world. First, the billionaire sex scandal that reaches all the way to Buckingham Palace. Britain's Prince Andrew and top attorney Alan Dershowitz are blasting allegations of sex with an underage girl. The royal family emphatically denying the charges and Dershowitz insisting that he can prove the story about him is a lie. Tonight, he tells me how.

Also, you might think it is an episode right out of "Law & Order", except this one is true. The millionaire funder of a successful hedge fund is found shot in the head in his apartment in Manhattan. His son arrested on suspicion of homicide. We're going to go live to the scene of the crime coming up.

But I want to begin with the scandal that has the royal family in an uproar: allegations that Prince Andrew had sex with an underage girl, and similar accusations against Alan Dershowitz. Both vehemently deny the charges. CNN's Jean Casarez has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The usually stoic and silent Buckingham Palace has become very vocal denying allegations in a federal lawsuit tying his Royal Highness Prince Andrew to sex crimes. There is nothing to suggest this is true, a palace statement says. "we have no record of such a meeting."

The second son of Queen Elizabeth is not charged in the ongoing federal lawsuit, but it puts him right in the middle of an alleged sexual abuse ring from 1999 to 2002 that was allegedly run by international financier, Jeffrey Epstein.

Epstein pleaded guilty to solicitation of prostitution. In 2008, he was sentenced to 18 months behind bars. He served 13 months. Epstein was known to hobnob with the rich and famous including Prince Andrew.

When the two were spotted walking in Central Park in 2011 after Epstein had become a registered sex offender, the British press went crazy. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're an embarrassment, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you resigning?

CASAREZ: His friendship cost Prince Andrew his job as the U.K. trade representative. Now the alleged victims are suing the U.S. governments saying their rights have been violated in the Epstein plea deal. And at least one victim has named Prince Andrew by name.

Jane Doe number 3 was forced to have sexual relations with this prince when she was a minor in three separate geographical locations -- in London, New York, and on Epstein's private island in the U.S. Virgin Islands."

According to the suit, young women were paid to come to Epstein's home in Florida to give him massages, where they were allegedly sexually assaulted. The defense says the girls lied about their ages and that there was never any sexual molestation.

Prince Andrew has not been charged, but the allegations have led to two public denials from the royal family including one that brazenly names the accuser. It is emphatically denied that HRH, The Duke of York had any form of sexual contact or relationship with Virginia Roberts. The allegations made are false and without any foundation."

The federal lawsuit also names high-profile criminal defense lawyer, Alan Dershowitz.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CASAREZ: And the story is quickly becoming an international story. Of course, it is all over the networks in Britain. But right here in the United States, "The New York Post" is showing pictures of who they say is Virginia Roberts.

CNN does not normally name an accuser in a sexual assault case, but because Ms. Roberts did her own interview with a British tabloid, that is why we are stating her name -- Don.

LEMON: Joining me now, Alan Dershowitz. His latest book is "Terror Tunnels," now available on e-book. So Alan, you were also mentioned in the court documents. Here's what it says in part.

"Epstein required Jane Doe number 3 to have sexual relations with Dershowitz on numerous occasions while she was a minor not only in Florida, but also on private planes, in New York, New Mexico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

In addition to being a participant in the abuse of Jane Doe number 3 and other minors, Dershowitz was an eyewitness to the sexual abuse of many other minors by Epstein and several of Epstein's co- conspirators."

What's your response to those very serious allegations? You've already responded legally, I understand. ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "TERROR TUNNELS": Well, they're all made up. Just totally out of whole cloth. I don't know this woman. I've never met her. I've never been with her. I never had sex with her or any kind of contact with her. Never saw any illegal activities.

I've just filed a sworn affidavit which subjects me to perjury prosecution. You know, this is all beyond the statute of limitations. I didn't have to do anything. I could have ignored it.

But I filed a sworn statement in which I not only categorically deny everything, I go through each of them and I say yes, I was on the island in the Caribbean with my wife, my daughter, distinguished professor at Harvard from the business school, his wife, in-laws, and children.

We were all together and my wife and my daughter were never separate from me for the 24 hours I was there. As far as New Mexico is concerned, where she claims she had sex with me, I was there only once before the building was complete. No one was in the building. It was totally empty.

Jeffrey Epstein wasn't there. We just looked around with two of my friends, my daughter, and my wife. We left. As to the airplanes, there are manifests that will prove beyond any doubt that I was never on any airplane, private airplane with this woman or any other underage girls.

So she's a serial liar. She has said that Bill Clinton was with her as an orgy on Jeffrey's Island. The Secret Service records will show that didn't happen. She said she met the queen, Buckingham Palace records show that didn't happen.

Why would anyone believe this woman with a criminal record, this woman who has lied through her teeth repeatedly about many world leaders? The blame is clearly with the lawyers.

LEMON: So then --

DERSHOWITZ: The lawyers could easily have found this out by just doing a little bit of checking. Why didn't they?

LEMON: So why are you being targeted? As you mentioned the lawyers, why would someone target you, Alan Dershowitz, with these very serious allegations?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, I fit beautifully into the profile because they want to be able to challenge the plea agreement and I was one of the lawyers who organized the plea agreement. I got the very good deal for Jeffrey Epstein. I plead guilty for getting him a good deal.

That's my job. And if they could find a lawyer who helped draft the agreement who also was a criminal having sex, wow, that could help them blow up the agreement.

So they sat down together, the three of them, these two sleazy unprofessional disbarable lawyers, Paul Casol, former federal judge, current professor, and another sleazy lawyer from Florida, Brad Edwards, whose partner is in jail for 50 years for trying to sell Epstein cases fraudulently.

They sat down together and they said, who would fit into this description, a lawyer who knows Epstein, who helped draft, Dershowitz so they and the woman got together and contrived and made this up.

They've been talking to the woman for years. She never alleged me before. She never made any mention -- many of the others were mentioned before. First time my name was mentioned was a week ago -- just made up out of whole cloth completely.

LEMON: Explain your relationship, though. This is a Wall Street billionaire. His name is Jeffrey Epstein. Your connection to him, you said he and several lawyers. You represented him and you got a good deal for him.

DERSHOWITZ: I did. That's right. I worked with Ken Starr. I worked with many other very prominent lawyers, Jerry Lefcor, Jay Levquits, and we for months negotiated with the government. It was one of the toughest negotiations we ever had.

We were fighting arm's length and finally we persuaded them they did not have a strong case and they agreed to drop the federal prosecution if he would agree to a state charge for which he got 18 months in prison.

LEMON: For?

DERSHOWITZ: That was a deal. My client didn't think it was such a good deal, for soliciting a minor for sex. My client didn't think it was such a good deal. That's the way these things usually work out. You walk out of a negotiation, neither party is completely satisfied. So you complain.

But you don't go after the lawyer and falsely charge him with a sex act which you know he didn't commit because you just have to look at the evidence. Look at the plane manifests. Look at my travel. Look at my passport. Call me. Ask me. I can produce the witnesses. The lawyers didn't do that.

LEMON: It's the stuff out of television. It sounds like --

DERSHOWITZ: Like scrawling something on a bathroom wall.

LEMON: It sounds like a "Law & Order" episode. Have you ever in your career seen anything like this happening to an attorney who represented someone?

DERSHOWITZ: No. I've never seen -- no. I've never seen two lawyers like Paul Casol and Brad Edwards engage in such unethical, disbarable conduct. And I am accusing them on your show of unethical conduct. I'm opening myself up to a defamation lawsuit.

I'm asking her to file criminal rape charges against me. I am waiving the statute of limitations or any immunity. But if she files a false rape charge against me, she goes to jail for filing a false charge.

LEMON: You're going to sue them.

DERSHOWITZ: What these two lawyers and this woman have done to rape victims -- I'm suing them. These two lawyers and this woman have hurt rape victims so much by putting forth a fake rape victim. They have hurt rape victims. They have hurt other kinds of victims.

Every feminist, every victim of rape should be furious at this woman, should be furious at these lawyers. They claim to be victims' rights lawyers. They create victims. But they picked the wrong victim this time.

They picked an innocent victim and I'm not going to rest until not only am I completely vindicated, but they admit that they willfully and knowingly filed this legal paper knowing that it was completely false.

LEMON: OK, so you categorically deny everything. CNN TONIGHT, and I need to say, this reached out to Virginia Roberts' attorneys, and here's what her attorneys, Brad Edwards, told CNN. This is via e-mail and this was on Friday.

It said, "We intend only to litigate the relevant issues in court and not to play into any side show attempted by anyone. We do not plead anything before carefully investigating all of the allegations first." Your reaction, Alan?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, they are hiding. What they did is they filed this thing in a document that gives them protection and privilege. They didn't ask to prove it. They didn't ask for a hearing. They didn't ask for anything. They just threw it out there and expected me to remain silent.

Now we're trying to file a motion to intervene. I hope the court lets us in because otherwise, I have no legal response and of course, I will have to sue them for defamation and will have to bring charges against them in front of the BAR Association.

I need a legal forum in which to litigate this. I want witnesses. I want the documentary evidence to come forward. We will destroy the credibility of this woman. She is a serial liar who's lied about so many people, and the public has to know that she has lied and these lawyers have tried to destroy my reputation.

The end result will be they will no longer be able to practice law. Paul Casol should not be able to teach students. He should not be able to practice law. A law license is not a license to victimize innocent people the way they've done.

LEMON: I have to ask you, Prince Andrew is mentioned in this. Why drag prince -- first of all, you know Prince Andrew. How do you know him, and why drag the prince into this?

DERSHOWITZ: I've met him a few times. I've met him in public occasions. He came to my class at Harvard Law School. I had a dinner with him at the British Consulate. They brought him in on the craziest of theories.

They argue that Prince Andrew, because he had sex, which there's no evidence that he did, tried to influence and did influence the plea bargaining and negotiation. Can you imagine a British prince calling up an American prosecutor in Florida and trying to influence the American justice system?

They'd hang the phone up. They would laugh. They would go out to dinner on that for months. As Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer I would never let Prince Andrew make a phone call. He'd make a fool of himself. He'd make a fool of all of us.

Princes don't call prosecutors and try to influence the outcome of a case, but that's what they're alleging. That's how stupid their hearing -- their legal document is. But they had to bring in -- they have to find an excuse to bringing in the prince because they wanted maximum publicity.

LEMON: So you have signed your legal response and that is in the process of -- in the court system now.

DERSHOWITZ: I have.

LEMON: So what do you anticipate would be your next move?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, we are planning to file a defamation action in various parts of the world, perhaps in London, perhaps in New York, perhaps in Florida. Everywhere where the defamation has occurred we're going to file a lawsuit demanding that they prove what they've alleged.

They can't because it's not true. We're going to file disciplinary charges against the lawyers for failing to take even the most minimal steps of trying to corroborate the word of this serial liar who's had a long, long history of lying.

They can't just believe a serial liar and put in a piece of paper not even asking for a hearing just saying the piece of paper is there, let it lie there, let the media pick it up. By the way, they dropped the dime on the media when he they filed it.

Otherwise, the media never would have noticed a filing in Palm Beach County just before New Year's. So clearly they had to notify the press of it this. The purpose of the legal proceeding was to get you folks to cover this story.

LEMON: All right, and here we are doing it. Alan Dershowitz, thank you.

DERSHOWITZ: Right. Thank you.

LEMON: We've got a lot more ahead on this shocking story. When we come right back, two top attorneys weigh in on how Alan Dershowitz and Prince Andrew are fighting back against the allegations against them.

Also a hedge fund murder, did a son kill his millionaire father? It is a ripped from the headlines story, and we'll go live to the scene of the crime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Some very ugly allegations of sexual abuse have reached all the way to Buckingham Palace. Prince Andrew is fighting back, and so is a very angry Alan Dershowitz. You heard from him just a few minutes ago on CNN.

Now I want to get two of America's top lawyers to weigh in on this. Joining me now is Mark Geragos, CNN legal analyst and defense attorney, and also Attorney Gloria Allred. Good evening to both of you. Happy new year, by the way. Gloria --

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY: Thank you.

LEMON: What is your reaction to these very serious allegations being hurled towards Alan Dershowitz and Prince Andrew?

ALLRED: Well, don, let me just say that first of all, I think this was the best denial by a person accused of a crime that I have ever seen and heard, the denial by Alan Dershowitz. It was a point by point denial.

And I might add that this is very different than what Bill Cosby did. He should take a lesson from Alan Dershowitz and also issue point by point denials if in fact he can do so about all of the persons who have alleged that they are victims of Bill Cosby.

Also, Alan Dershowitz did say that he would waive and not assert the statute of limitations as a defense --

LEMON: That's what you want from Bill Cosby?

ALLRED: Yes, exactly. That's what I proposed several weeks ago. He is inviting the woman or women who are alleging that he committed a crime to sue him. He will not assert the statute of limitations, not say that it's time barred as a defense, and he can do that.

So could Bill Cosby, but Bill Cosby has not accepted my challenge. And when I said why don't you invite all of the women who are making accusations to sue you?

And not assert the statute of limitations, you could do that, let a judge and jury decide, that's what Alan Dershowitz is saying. Why doesn't Bill Cosby do the same?

LEMON: I want to bring Mark in now and get your reaction to this. Both men clearly on the offensive about those allegations and what their actions will be. So what do you make of it, Mark?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, interestingly, when Gloria talks about Bill Cosby, they're both -- there's kind of a symbiotic relationship between what's happening here. On one hand, Alan, I think, and I agree with Gloria, it was a wonderful defense and an opening statement combined with a closing argument all in one. And he's clearly frustrated by this. The problem is that he has an enormous hurdle in order to try to get anything done to the lawyers, number one, because of what's called the litigation privilege.

And number two, doing anything in terms of suing for defamation. So what he's doing is he's trying to draw them out to say something so that they'll step outside of the litigation privilege, number one.

Well, that's exactly what Gloria is trying to do with Bill Cosby because there's a great frustration there because of the statute of limitations that Gloria is faced with, with her own clients.

And that's one of the reasons that Marty Singer, I assume, is advising Cosby to just shut down, not say anything because you do not want to give Gloria the opportunity to come in and sue him for saying something or reiterating something.

So you're watching two kind of legal dances, if you will, taking place here. The problem is that ultimately at the end of the day at least for Alan the only place where he may get some kind of satisfaction.

And he mentioned it when you were interviewing him, is in London. Not in the U.S. He may -- London has some pretty good ways to come after people who say things about you --

LEMON: But Mark --

GERAGOS: -- and clearly he would have the wind at his back in London.

LEMON: But also in the court of public opinion and in perception because if someone makes an allegation about you many times people believe it to be true even if it is not true. He is defending himself from the start here.

My question to you, though, is would the attorneys representing Virginia Roberts have investigated these claims before filing them? Wouldn't they have investigated all of this? I mean, if Dershowitz is right and they have no evidence, they're really in a dicey situation.

GERAGOS: Well, they can always -- if they don't get anywhere and if he -- if they had sued Alan, yes, you had malicious prosecution, abuse of process. The problem is, and Alan mentioned it in his statement to you, he's not a named party here.

He's talked about in the lawsuit, but he wants to insinuate himself into the lawsuit. That's what he said. He's going to try to get -- let the court give him standing so he can conduct discovery, so he can do things.

He's in kind of a legal no man's land in the U.S. at least because he's not a party to that lawsuit. It's the U.S. government. It's the Jane Does and the lawyers obviously representing each of the respective parties.

LEMON: Yes. Gloria, he said that Virginia Roberts and her attorneys were actually hurting rape victims or doing quite a disservice to rape victims. You represent sexual assault victims. Is he right?

ALLRED: Well, no. I don't agree with him that they're hurting rape victims. I mean, these allegations are either true or they're false. He's denying it. He's giving facts. He's offering them. He says look at my passport, look at the plane manifest, talk to my wife, talk to my daughter, they were all there. I was never alone.

He was giving facts point by point and you know, he's suggesting it should be decided in a court of law. Mark is right that there is something called the litigation privilege.

If in fact it was only said in a filed motion, which apparently it was a motion to add Jane Does to the existing lawsuit, then he's not going to be able to, you know, fight it out in that lawsuit unless his deposition is taken.

And of course the attorneys for the alleged victims, the Jane Does, are saying they've been trying to take his deposition. Whether it's in a different case or this, I don't know, and so you know, we'll have to see.

But I wouldn't generalize this, you know. Often rape victims or alleged victims don't even report because they're afraid of being attacked, and you can't generalize from one case at all.

LEMON: All right, thank you very much. I appreciate it, Gloria Allred and Alan Dershowitz. Cutting it a little short here because I have some breaking news I want to get to tonight.

Two NYPD officers, two NYPD officers have been shot tonight in the Bronx. One was shot in the arm. The other was shot in the back. The officers have not been identified yet. Both are expected to survive, though. The shooter is still on the loose tonight.

Again, two NYPD officers shot tonight in the Bronx. One was shot in the arm. The other shot in the back. The officers have not been identified. Again, both are expected to survive. We're going to get more details on them, and we'll bring that to you as soon as we get them.

In the meantime, a hedge fund manager shot to death in his Tony New York City apartment. His son is under arrest. What can be the motive here? The latest in this ripped from the headlines story when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tonight, a New York City man is in police custody, suspected of homicide in the death of his father, the founder of a hedge fund.

CNN business correspondent, Alison Kosik, is outside the building on Manhattan's upscale Beekman Place, where Thomas Gilbert Sr. was shot to death on Sunday. So Alison, what is the latest tonight? What are police saying?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Don, police continue to piece together what led up to the murder of 70-year-old Thomas Gilbert. He was shot in the head. His body found on the floor of his bedroom on the eighth floor of this apartment building where I'm standing tonight.

The prime suspect is his very own son, 30-year-old Thomas Jr. Now, here's what police say happened on Sunday, yesterday. His son came to this apartment to talk to his parents.

When he came in, he asked if he could talk privately with his father, and he asked his mother to go outside and buy a sandwich and come back. Now, listen to what police say happened next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF ROBERT BOYCE: Thomas Gilbert Jr. visited the family. Present was Mr. Gilbert Sr. and his wife. He then, Mr. Gilbert Jr. then asked to speak to Mr. Gilbert sr. By himself and asked the mother to leave. The mother did leave.

She went to get some food for junior. About 15 minutes after that she had a bad feeling and decided to return. She got back to the apartment about 15 minutes later and she found senior on the floor with a bullet hole in his head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSIK: Now, police say the crime scene was staged to look like that Tom Sr. had killed himself, had committed suicide. Now, all this happening in a span of 30 minutes, Don, from the time that the son arrived here at the apartment to the time that the mother returned to the apartment to find her husband's lifeless body lying on the bedroom floor. And when she got back to the apartment, Don, her son had already left -- Don.

LEMON: So why did police think it was staged?

KOSIK: What police said is when detectives got there they saw the way the weapon was sitting on the victim's body and they questioned whether or not it really could have been a self-inflicted wound. So they began to look elsewhere and think who could be the suspect, and immediately they thought of the son.

They tracked him down at his apartment, which is on the other side of Manhattan. They found him inside of his apartment. He had surrendered and once they got a search warrant, they found some clues that could be important evidence in this case.

For one, they found two magazines that match the weapon found at the scene. They found bullets throughout the son's apartment. They also actually even found the box that the .40-caliber weapon came in. Now, it was today that Thomas Jr. was arrested and officially charged in his father's murder.

LEMON: Alison, do they have a motive at this point?

KOSIK: They don't have an exact motive, but what they do say is that the parents say that they have supported their son, giving him an allowance and even reports say paying his rent. Now, reports are saying that the discussion that became apparently very heated on Sunday was about cutting back on that allowance from $600 a week reportedly to $400 a week and possibly no longer paying his son's rent. That is according to reports -- Don.

LEMON: Alison Kosik, thank you very much for that. Joining me now, criminal defense attorney, Jeff Hoffman, and psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig. Good evening to both of you. As a defense attorney, Jeff, would you represent him? Are there any holes in this case? Do you see anything?

JEFF HOFFMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's very early in the case. At this stage there are a lot of questions that one would ask. Some of those questions are what happened in the apartment. There's no eyewitness to what happened in the apartment.

If you listen to the statements, most of it's coming from the mother and that's very interesting to me. What's the timeline? The mother left the apartment. If there was a heated argument between her son and her husband and she had some concerns, why leave the apartment?

She says after she was gone a few minutes she suddenly had concerns that made her come back. What caused those concerns? Nothing happened different from the time she left and when she turned around and came back.

LEMON: They're going to be looking at what might have precipitated this and probably the physical evidence as well. Because they're saying to them, to officers at least initially this looks staged.

The question, though, Robi, is what would cause someone to do that? Especially she said the motive may have been that they were cutting back on his rent, but then you don't get any -- cutting back on his allowance, you don't get any allowance.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSCYHOTHERAPIST: Right, exactly. And this kind of murder is very rare. So for a child, an adult child to kill a parent happens in less than 2 percent of the cases of homicide in the U.S. and it generally comes down to three reasons for a child to kill a parent.

One, there's a severe mental illness. Two, there's a lot of abuse or there's a history of anti-social personality disorder. And that's basically a sociopath, someone who feels entitled, has a parasitic relationship to a parent or parents.

Is very fragile, doesn't have very deep connections to people around him, especially in the family, and feels threatened in some way. So if that scenario did happen where he was being threatened that his father was no longer going to pay his rent and that created this intense rage that could have triggered this kind of incident.

LEMON: It was surprising they said they took him in without any -- he didn't fight back, right? And the thing is that may be surprising to people is he was still at his apartment. He didn't try to flee. They allegedly found weapons in the apartment. Is that surprising to you?

HOFFMAN: Well, firstly they didn't find weapons in the apartment. They found a cartridge that could fit that gun. Secondly, we're all assuming, and I say we, I hope I'm not, but the assumption is immediate that of the two people that could have done this he did it. Remember, his mother was there. We don't know if she returned before the shot was heard or after. We don't know that timeline.

LUDWIG: But what's interesting to me, though, is if the mother thinks that her son did it then she could be revealing a very problematic history that she knows her son had. Why is her son not working? Why are the parents still taking care of someone who's 30 years old who doesn't have a job? You know, what is the history? Did he have problems with the law? Did he have a history of violence that somehow the family downplayed?

LEMON: I want you to be more specific about it. Say again what you said about the two people who were there. What did you say?

HOFFMAN: There were two people who were there apparently, the mother and the son. The mother says that they were arguing, they meaning the father and the son. If there was this kind of history, then as a mother with an elderly husband you wouldn't leave that apartment. You wouldn't leave that situation alone. Yet allegedly she did because that's what she said occurred, and allegedly she did to get a sandwich.

LEMON: That's what a lot of people are questioning. You can't imagine what she's feeling tonight because she left the apartment. He asked her to leave the apartment.

LUDWIG: Well, a lot of families in this situation, there's a lot of denial that a child can be dangerous or a child can be homicidal, especially to a parent and so maybe what this scenario, if it in fact did play out this way, where the son killed the father.

Maybe this will alert families that, you know, children can be violent toward parents and vice versa and to try to make those interventions as early as possible.

HOFFMAN: You know, we're jumping on this so quickly. We don't know if the son's doing this. Everyone's assuming the son did this. We don't know what role the mother played. We don't know what the timeline was. We don't know if the mother was back in the apartment and then the shot was heard after the son left.

LEMON: We'll find those things out, but he's been charged with murder, criminal possession of a murder. If he's convicted, what type of sentence does that carry?

HOFFMAN: If he's convicted of murder, he's looking at 25 to life in New York.

LEMON: All right, thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Robi. Appreciate it. When we come back, the latest on our breaking news, two NYPD officers shot tonight in the Bronx. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Want to update you on our breaking news. Two NYPD officers have been shot tonight in the Bronx. The shooter is still on the loose tonight. Joining me now on the phone, CNN crime and justice producer, Shimon Prokupecz, and he is at the scene tonight. What can you tell us, Shimon?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER (via telephone): So don, there's a heavy, heavy police presence here. Lots of officers standing around at this point and it looks like they're going through a store.

I'm told there was a robbery inside a store here near 184th and Marian. And when police responded, they tried to pull over a car that they believed the suspects were inside or eight suspects were inside. When they pulled over the car, there was some sort of exchange of gunfire.

They fired at -- the suspect fired at the police, the police fired back, and two officers were shot. They are looking for the suspect but there is some belief the suspect may have been hit by some gunfire from the officers.

So now the police are checking, you know, local hospitals to see if there are any victims of gunshot wounds to see if that's perhaps the suspect. But right now there's just a heavy police presence here. Police are just on scene and trying to figure out exactly what happened.

LEMON: If you're just joining us, on the phone with our producer, CNN producer, Shimon Prokupecz, who's at the scene of a police shooting in the Bronx here in New York City.

Of course, this is all coming on the heels of the tension between the mayor and the two officers who were executed in New York City recently. Apparently, these two police officers tonight are -- their injuries are not life threatening.

They were taken to St. Barnabas Hospital. We are told they are in guard condition tonight and they are being x-rayed and CAT scanned. Do anything else from the scene -- they're not obviously discussing the condition of the officers, Shimon, on the scene, correct?

PROKUPECZ: No, they're not discussing. I would say right now they're just going into a -- there's a food choice, a store just up the block here that I can see where they're going in and out of, you know, they'll be gathering evidence, looking at surveillance cameras.

There's, you know, close to two dozen officers standing in the middle of the street here just sort of going over stuff. And it's a pretty calm scene. And I mean, they're just sort of talking. Crime scene units have just arrived.

So they'll process the crime scene, go over whatever evidence. They'll look for shell casings, anything else along the lines of sort of forensic stuff. But we know that one of the officers was shot in the elbow, another was shot in the back and taken to St. Barnabas Hospital here in the Bronx.

And like you said, with non-life-threatening injuries. We expect some sort of press conference later this morning perhaps, later tonight into the morning once the NYPD figures out exactly what happened here.

LEMON: All right, Shimon, as we continue on with you, what time did this happen? Take us through exactly what you're hearing either from eyewitnesses or from sources about what happened on the scene.

PROKUPECZ: Well, there are very few people on the street right now. I talked to a few people to see if they heard any gunshots. And so far I haven't been able to find anyone who's seen or heard anything. This happened within I would say about an hour ago or so.

We were told -- I was told police were responding to a robbery call at a store here. They had a description of the suspect. They went to pull over the car. When they -- during that time when they were trying to pull the car over there was an exchange of gunfire.

And right now they believe there's a chance the suspect may have been shot as well. But you know, at this point it's just a lot of different officers responding. There are more officers coming to the scene.

And right now it looks like they're all standing around trying to gather evidence, look for any video, perhaps something from the store or anywhere here on the corner to see if they can identify the suspect.

LEMON: OK, Shimon --

PROKUPECZ: I just keep seeing more and more police officers arriving.

LEMON: All right, Shimon, stand by. Again I want to update our viewers. You're looking at video. This is of the scene of a police shooting in the Bronx here in New York City. Two police officers shot earlier, one in the arm, one in the back.

We're told they were taken to a hospital in the Bronx, St. Barnabas Hospital. They are in guarded condition this evening. Also speaking to our producer there on the scene, he's saying they believe that the suspect may have been shot as well and they're checking with local hospitals to see if there are any victims of gunshot wounds in the hospital.

I want to bring in John Cardillo, who joined us earlier. He's on the phone. He's a former NYPD officer. He was with us earlier. He used to patrol this area. I can imagine what you're going to say. This is a danger New York City police officers face.

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER (via telephone): Yes, they certainly do and you have as much information as I'm actually getting right now from cops on the ground. I was listening to you and your previous guest. And you what you guys are reporting is very accurate to what I'm being texted from officers in that command right now. I unfortunately don't have any more info except the good news is that over the radio it was not likely, meaning the officers were not likely to die, which is a very good thing.

LEMON: Yes. And so John, as we know, just before Christmas two NYPD officers executed in Brooklyn and then there's been the tension between protesters, between the mayor, between the police department and now this.

The mayor and the police commissioner coming out today and really talking about the crime in New York City and commending the NYPD for the job they have done over the last year and really over the last several years in bringing crime down.

But again, officers face a really tough situation out on the streets. As you are -- you used to patrol this area. Take us through what this area is like near 184th or 188th and Taibot Avenue.

CARDILLO: You know, it's the 46 Precinct. It's used to be called the most dangerous square mile in America, very high concentration of drugs, violence, and crime. A lot of robberies and these officers from what I'm being told were part of the 46 Precinct Anti-Crime Unit, which is a plainclothes unit that typically focuses on guns and armed robbery.

So in a situation like this at 10:30, a robbery in progress would have come over the radio, and normally the anti-crime unit is the response, the first responder unit type of thing. Be assigned patrol car, the marked patrol car would have gotten this with typically anti-crime, which is a roving patrol, immediately hears this.

These are what you call priority calls. Alerts will come over the radio and they'll race to the scene. They're a rolling unit. And they would have most likely encountered these suspects. And it's not surprising to me that gunfire was exchanged.

This was a rough neighborhood in the '90s, and it still is today. And so these robberies were very common when I worked there. There were many shootings, police-involved shootings, bad guy on victim.

So this -- I don't want to sound cavalier about it, but this is the 46 Precinct. This is what you would expect working there. You wouldn't expect police officers to be shot, but certainly armed bad guys with propensity to shoot someone.

LEMON: Do we still have Shimon Prokupecz, our producer on?

PROKUPECZ: I'm here, Don, yes.

LEMON: Shimon, again, so what -- do we know what led up to this? Was it a robbery? Was it a routine stop? I know you were speaking earlier, but there are a number of people talking to me. Do we know what happened to cause this? PROKUPECZ: I've been told that they were responding to what they call a commercial robbery, which is a store robbery and there was a car stop. They were trying to stop a car that they believe the suspect was inside of when there was an exchange of gunfire sometime shortly thereafter. Shots were fired.

And I was told by several sources that they believe the suspect may have been shot. As far as they know there was an exchange of gunfire, and so now they're checking hospitals to see if in fact the suspect was shot. But it was a robbery.

There's a -- the police seem to be concentrating on a corner here where there's some sort of like a food shop. It's called Food Choice. It's halfway down now, the gate. I saw some police officers were sort of centered around there.

I don't know if that's exactly the location of the robbery or if they were just going in there to see if there were any surveillance cameras. But that seems to be the area that they were concentrating on. And for the most part a lot of officers are just standing around in the milled of the street.

LEMON: All right. Shimon, stand by. Again two, New York City police officers shot. Non-life-threatening injuries at this point. Shot in the borough of the Bronx tonight.

I want to bring in now Tom Verni who's a former NYPD detective and police academy instructor. Commercial robbery and then a car stop. Tell us what that means, Tom.

TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE (via telephone): Hi, good evening, Don. Good evening, everybody. So basically, I had spoken about this earlier today on "NEW DAY" and yesterday I was in the studio. Some people are under the impression that the police are not -- they're shutting down and not doing anything because of this dispute with the mayor and everything else.

And that's the furthest thing from the truth. I think your other guests could probably corroborate this. The officers are out there every day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, putting their lives on the line. And this is just another example of that.

That they are out there fighting crime the way that they've been trained to do and doing the great job that they do day in and day out. You know, commercial robberies, they happen especially in that area of the Bronx, as one of your other guests had mentioned, that area of the Bronx has been a very busy area for many years.

It's gotten a lot better over the last couple decades, but clearly there's still a lot of work to be done in that area so officers responded to a commercial robbery just as they would any other commercial robbery anywhere else in the city.

And then you have someone who's armed and dangerous, as they found out the hard way, and hopefully they'll be OK. It sounds as if the injuries aren't life-threatening. LEMON: OK, Tom, stand by. I want everyone to stand by, John to stand by, Tom, and also Shimon, and I also want to bring in -- I think it's important to bring in Robi Ludwig, who is a psychotherapist. Everyone is very tense especially the police department here in New York.

LUDWIG: Absolutely. You know, listen, I think it's good that we see that the police officers really are trying to do their jobs and that there's a lot of different sides to this story we need to consider.

And I think when there are a lot of different right perspectives it's hard to make sense out of that and how to proceed. I think it's good to see police officers are working hard and it's important that we don't stereotype too when we're making quick decisions.

LEMON: And also it's good to see that it is non-life-threatening injuries that we're talking about.

LUDWIG: That's right. Absolutely.

LEMON: So stay with us, everyone. We're going to continue with our breaking news here on CNN. We'll be right back.

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LEMON: We are continuing to gather the breaking news on the two officers shot in New York, non-life-threatening injuries. We'll continue to follow that.

Also we have breaking news tonight that six more bodies have been identified from Flight 8501. I'm going to bring in CNN's Gary Tuchman, who is live for us in Indonesia. Gary, are investigators any closer to finding the plane, the bigger parts of the plane?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They hope so, Don. The conditions are the best we've seen in the eight days we've been here. Divers are in the water right now hoping that they're able to find wreckage from the plane, but as of now no reports that they have.

Nineteen people have now been identified. A total of 37 bodies have been recovered, but there are still 125 people who are missing. Many of these families are in this tent. Local police headquarters waiting for any word.

For the first few days many people hoped and prayed for a miracle. Most people sadly have given up on that now. What they want are their loved ones' bodies back.

And what we are being told by authorities today, and this is not surprising, this is not a shock, but they are telling us that they think it's unlikely they will find many more bodies in the water.

They do think the majority of the bodies if not all the remaining bodies are still strapped to their seats in the airplane on the bottom of the Java Sea. The sea is very shallow, only about 100 feet deep, but the visibility's been very poor. This weekend when divers went down the conditions were pretty good. The winds had died down. The waves had died down. But they got down there and they said the visibility was zero. We're hoping they're able to see something today.

LEMON: Gary Tuchman, thank you very much. Robi Ludwig, a psychotherapist here. Families have come to the realization that their loved ones are gone. But they want the remains back, and it's not good news.

LUDWIG: Right. Well, it's very hard to come to terms with the death of a loved one when you can't see the body. It just plays with the denial factor. So seeing the bodies really helps them understand their loved one is not coming back and then they can move forward in life understanding that, closing the chapter.

LEMON: Thank you, Robi. Appreciate that. We're going to be right back and we're going to have more on our breaking news. Two NYPD officers shot in the Bronx.

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LEMON: Welcome back. Our breaking news, two NYPD officers have been shot tonight in the Bronx. One was shot in the elbow. The other was shot in the back. We're told the officers were responding to a robbery call at a store.

Both are expected to survive. Both are expected to survive. The shooter, though, is still on the loose tonight and may have suffered a gunshot wound. We're told the officers were rushed to the hospital.

They're being checked out, but they don't believe, again, that the injuries are life threatening. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for watching. Our live coverage continues with John Vause and Rosemary Church at the CNN Center in Atlanta.