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Don Lemon Tonight

Three Terror Suspects Dead, One Woman On The Run

Aired January 09, 2015 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: It's 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. It's 5 a.m. in Paris. I'm Don Lemon. Our breaking news, one terror suspect, a woman on the run tonight after twin raids in France, the first killed the brothers, authorities blame for the "Charlie Hebdo" massacre.

The second, the alleged hostage taker at a kosher store in Eastern Paris, his death and the release of some of the hostages, captured in this dramatic video from France too.

I want to get right to our breaking news tonight. CNN's Jim Sciutto, live for us in Paris. Frederik Pleitgen also is live for us in the two of Dammartin-En-Goele.

So first to you, Jim. Jim, you were near the kosher grocery store when the raid happened. What did you witness?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You know, Don, tension had been building all day for hours. We had seen these police tactical units lining up. Surrounding in position, it appeared to go into that kosher market. We had seen them there for hours.

But we had no idea when they would go in because we knew there were hostages inside. Of course, they wanted to protect those hostages lives. Once that raid took place to the northeast of Paris, with the two brothers, it was a few minutes later we heard the gunfire, heard the explosions.

It was like being in a war zone again. Here's how it unfolded on CNN's ears.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now I'm hearing gunfire. Multiple shots. Automatic fire. I'm going to stop speaking there so you can hear it as well as I am. It is continuing. Another explosion, this is all happening 300 yard from where we are at this kosher market.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: You know, as soon as the tactical team went in there, it was just a few moments later when we started to hear the ambulances follow them one, two, three, half a dozen in the end. We know there were wounded police officers in that raid and sadly, of course, we found out later there were a number of hostages who were killed as well.

LEMON: Jim, the video is up of -- that, that police rushing in and hostages running out during the raid. We just speck to Lieutenant Colonel James Reece. He was saying that he doesn't believe the woman was in there, that she went to another location. If she was in all of this chaos, you can imagine that she, it might not be that difficult for her to escape.

SCIUTTO: Well, that's what the police union is saying. They're saying that they believe she took advantage of that confusion to get away. As you watch that video though, it's a pretty good shot. It's hard to see where she would have come out. There weren't a lot of entrances and exits there.

Our information was there were just two. So, so it does beg some explaining, but that's the police's best information. And, you know, this has been one of those things. We've watched the police scrambling in each of these shootings and each of these events to try to keep track of people.

Remember, it took -- it took, 48, 72 hours to find the shooters who carried out at take on "Charlie Hebdo." It took some time to find this hostage taker. Remember, he carried out another shooting yesterday that killed a female police officer. And now, of course they have to find his companion who is still at large another manhunt under way in and around Paris.

LEMON: So we know about the male suspects, the female suspect at large and four hostages died. Do you know anything about the condition of the officer?

SCIUTTO: We don't. We don't. We do know that they're alive. There were no deaths among the officers, but there were injuries. And, if information the French president put out when he spoke to the nation on national television, I should say last night because it is the morning here in Paris.

He said that it's their belief, it's the authorities' belief that those hostages who died, that they died earlier in the hostage taking and that appears to be clear because in that great hostage video you can see, sadly, a dead body on the ground as those police first go in. It looks to be one of the hostages who was killed earlier -- earlier in this hostage taking.

LEMON: OK, I want to go to Fred now. Fred, how do these four suspects fit together and what was -- what do we know might have been their ultimate goal?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they fit together a lot more than we initially thought. I mean, one of the things that we believed initially is that these two incidents may not be related at all. That the two brothers may have carried out at take on the "Charlie Hebdo" headquarters and the shooting of the police woman that happened on Thursday may have been completely unrelated to that.

But it appears as though, the suspect in the kosher store raid had various contacts to the Kouachi brothers. In fact his wife apparently had contacts to the wife of one of the Kouachi brothers. So they did have contact.

One of the things that apparently the person who conducted the raid on the kosher store said when he was talking to the media, which apparently he called French media here, he said that he was absolutely in sync with the Kouachi brothers at least for the "Charlie Hebdo" raid.

So there were some serious contacts that they had. They were very much in contact with each other. The ultimate goal is a very interesting question because the Kouachi brothers were in contact with the media as well.

There was a reporter from our affiliate here, BFN, who called them and they called themselves, the avengers of the Prophet Muhammad. Of course, we know that the satirical magazine, "Charlie Hebdo" had -- had covers, depicting the Prophet Muhammad.

That's something that people took issue with, but that, of course, is something that appears to be only their goal up front. One of the things that they also said is that they were sent by al Qaeda and Arabian Peninsula that they were linked to Al-Awlaki.

It really is unclear whether or not their ultimate goal was to show force, whether or not it was do some sort of sick advertising for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

But certainly one of their goals must have been to get as much attention as possible. That is certainly something that they achieved in all of this. One of their other goals might have been to silence satirical comedy or satirical papers here in this country.

That's certainly something that they would not have achieved by any stretch of the imagination. So it's unclear. One of the things that, of course, makes the authorities go so hard after the person who is still at large, that the woman, the one who is married to the person who, who conducted that siege at the -- at the kosher store is because she is the lone survivor.

She is the only one who can shed any sort of light on what exactly these people's motives were. Of course, the authorities are trying to piece all this together by electronic evidence, by looking at things like Facebook profiles.

But actually talking to these people would have been something that would have helped a lot. But now of course, three of them are dead. One of them is still at large. Only if the police managed to apprehend her will they be able to find out, or hopefully find out, what exactly drove these people, and what their goals were -- Don.

LEMON: Frederik Pleitgen and Jim Sciutto, thank you very much for your reporting. Now I want to bring in Robert McFadden. He is a former special agent in charge in NCIS, and Juliette Kayyem, CNN national security analyst. Good evening to both of you.

Robert first, one woman escaped, the only surviving suspect. How much of a threat does she pose now?

ROBERT MCFADDEN, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, NCIS: Right now, though, I can't imagine anything other than her trying to go underground. Stay underground. Find a safe place in order to just live another day. I mean, she could very well be dangerous.

Particularly if she takes a page from her companion's playbook and the way those guys conduct themselves when they are cornered that they go down fighting. Hail of bullets or blow themselves up so her by herself don't really think anything much more than trying to hide for as long as possible.

LEMON: The idea that I have been seeing and reading in news reports, Juliette, about will she strike again? Do you think that is a real possibility?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I know. I agree with Robert. She finds herself in a situation she probably did not anticipate, which is that she would be the sole survivor. Because remember they had an exit strategy. It just didn't get executed as planned.

Because beginning with the car accident after the attack on Wednesday. So, she is, isolated and is likely not to reach out to any network, and just is trying to survive until the next day. But we don't know who else they're affiliated with.

That's what the French authorities are looking at. That's why the phone calls are important. Of course, capturing her in hopes that she will talk about what, who supplied the weapons. How did they get this money? How does a plan like this get executed pretty well and pretty effectively, unfortunately for the French?

LEMON: Pretty comprehensive question for you here, Robert, AQAP, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula has claimed responsibility for orchestrating the attack on "Charlie Hebdo." CNN has not confirmed this. What could this mean for al Qaeda? Could the notoriety of what happened in Paris electrify other terrorists? Could this help in recruiting?

MCFADDEN: Yes, Don, very important question right now and you know we are still in that territory where there are many more questions than answers. But, I emphasize this is a however, the proviso that depending on what intelligence shows.

But it could represent where say, the al Qaeda mothership and its most lethal down range element in the Arabian Peninsula has changed tact. Where, yes, now it is going to go in the direction of supporting at least whether it is just verbally or actually with direct command and control small scale either lone wolf or wolfpack type operations against soft targets.

But I really can't emphasize enough though that there are so many questions like for example, over the 3-1/2 year gap for at least one of the brothers going to Yemen. One doesn't need to go to Yemen to be able to handle a long gun the way we saw they handled in the film and the tragedy the other day.

Yes, there were some disciplined single shot burst or multiple, around, fully automatic. But that really doesn't take extensive training years ago in a place like Yemen.

One of the other things that is kind of quirky here as well, you know, there is some bonafide conduits in social media from both the Islamic State and al Qaeda.

Over the last 48 hours, both have had dueling entries on the internet about taking responsibility or credit, let's say credit. Also too in the past we know al Qaeda core, as well as Islamic State.

After the fact, may not necessarily take credit for it, but actually salutes the actions. So, last part of your question though, about could it be a boon for recruitment? Potentially absolutely.

LEMON: I want to go more in of this competition, Juliette, the idea that there is a competition for attention for recruitment between al Qaeda and ISIS?

KAYYEM: That's absolutely right. It's been anticipated for a long time and we have seen it played out in particular, as all eyes focus on ISIS and the Syrian peninsula, al Qaeda was looking for relevance in the, you know, the sort of "I'm not dead yet" philosophy and trying to show their strength.

We saw the growth of al Qaeda in areas of the world or at least, sort of, them trying to stabilize and create groupings in parts of the world that hadn't been seen before and to make themselves relevant through the way that terrorist organizations make themselves relevant to successful terrorist attacks.

So, once again as Robert said, as we have all been saying all week. There is a lot of what, ifs. There is a lot of unanswered questions. But if you are looking at the competition that we have been anticipating, over the last couple years between al Qaeda and ISIS, this is exactly what you would expect al Qaeda to do.

To show that they still have capability in Western Europe against soft targets in a very, very organized fashion, we can't repeat that enough. That this is just, this is not the sociopaths who are on Facebook and Twitter saying "I believe in ISIS now." This is -- this was real.

LEMON: And much more orchestrated.

KAYYEM: Made more real today. Yes.

LEMON: I want to ask you this and quickly because I'm really up against the clock here. Short answer. The possibility it could happen anywhere, here in the United States. How concerned should we be? First, Juliette, to you?

KAYYEM: I am of the philosophy having been in Homeland Security a long time. It can always happen here. We should just stop, not worrying. Just stop asking the question in some ways, Don, because we are vulnerable country. We are built that way.

We are welcoming to people. We have commercial activity. We are a global, economic juggernaut. This is, this -- the nature of the beast right now. We can make ourselves stronger through intelligence and other ways.

LEMON: Robert.

MCFADDEN: Yes, Don. Agree completely with Juliette, what she is saying. What I would add though, you know it's -- it is instructive and helpful to look at individual or unique circumstances in different parts of the world, different countries, different regions.

France has a particular set of circumstances that were definitely if not an incubator, would have facilitated an act like this. Could it happen in the United States? Absolutely.

Is there any intelligence right now that we are hearing about from the secretary of DHS? Not at this point. Still these are the kind of things that can't be ruled out. But keeping it in local context of what the circumstances are, I think helps keep things in a perspective.

LEMON: We have to admit it is frightening possibility. Frightening possibility after looking at what happened at the office of "Charlie Hebdo" and then looking at the hostage situation in the killing today. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Good evening.

MCFADDEN: Thank you.

KAYYEM: Thank you.

LEMON: We have much more to come on our breaking news tonight, a female terror suspect on the run after three male suspects were killed in police raids.

When we come right back, Muslims who say killing in the name of Islam is the worst insult to the prophet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It is early Saturday morning in France where police are searching for a suspected female terrorist. Three other suspects were killed in clashes with police.

Many American Muslims are using social media to express their revulsion and outrage at the attack on "Charlie Hebdo." Posting statements, such as, "I am just livid. These attacks have no place in Islam." CNN's Sara Sidner has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Friday prayers at the Islamic center of Southern California, the imam's entire sermon a reaction to the terrorist attacks in Paris. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I made a few notes that were swirling in my mind. I listened in horror, once again, at another crime perpetrated in the name of Islam in Paris.

SIDNER: The message killing in the name of Islam is by far the worst insult to the prophet. In recent months that's exactly what we have seen. A string of attacks perpetrated in the name of Islam from "Charlie Hebdo" headquarters and a kosher market in Paris to a school in Pakistan.

We talked with many at the Islamic center in Los Angeles about the mix of Islam and terror, including Muslim Los Angeles Police Officer Omar Ricci.

(on camera): What is it about Islam that attracts this?

OMAR RICCI, LOS ANGELES POLICE OFFICER: We are living in the dark age of the Muslim world. So just like Christianity went through its dark age. We are now at that point.

SIDNER (voice-over): Salam Al-Mariati (ph), the president of the Muslim Public Affairs Council blames some on a lack of moderate leadership in Muslim countries.

(on camera): Should moderate Islam take some role in trying to combat extremism?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it has taken a role and I think that all depends on how we define moderate Islam, if we expect governments of the Middle East and South Asia to be that voice of moderate Islam then no. They don't represent Muslim communities worldwide. They represent whatever is in their self-interest for the immediate future, for the short term.

So if it makes sense to them, sure they will say a few things here and there, but the reality is if you look at the long term, if you look back to what has been happening, the last 10, 20, 50 years, if anything they have only fueled more extremism either deliberately or indirectly.

SIDNER (voice-over): Attendees at the mosque couldn't wait to speak with us saying, it is always the extremist in the spotlight when it comes to their religion. The real voice of Islam they say is rarely heard and doesn't get enough attention.

CHERYL SOLIMAN, WORSHIPPER: The media doesn't ever hear that. The media is very silent and it's very boring to hear this side. There is no thrill. There is no excitement. I think the media is responsible because you glorify that end.

SIDNER (on camera): Gets a lot of attention?

SOLIMAN: It gets so much attention, but the actual facts get no attention at all.

SIDNER (voice-over): And once again, terror in Paris, terror in the name of Islam has taken center stage. Sara Sidner, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Let's talk now with Zuhdi Jasser, the president and founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy and author of "A Battle For The Soul Of Islam" and also, Mubin Shaikh, a Jihadist, turned undercover counterterrorism operative and author of "Undercover Jihadi."

Good evening to both of you. Mubin, I spoke with Fareed Zakaria yesterday, and he said there is a battle going on within Islam. This isn't just Islam versus the west.

MUBIN SHAIKH, JIHADIST TURNED UNDERCOVER COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATIVE: Of course, there is a battle going on in Islam. There is a battle -- there seems to be a bat between Islam and the west, the west and Islam, and Islam and Islam and the west. It is a complete mess.

So I think a lot of it is this desire to see changes being triggered by western educated Muslims, people who have the luxury of education.

That the Muslim world was once known for, the Christians in Europe would flock to the Muslim world to obtain education in areas like philosophy, astronomy, medicine, so on. And it is just now the roles are reversed.

LEMON: Last night, do you remember when we spoke with Reza Aslan, I believe you were here, Mubin, he said what happened in Paris is specific to the issues they're having in France. But do you connect all of these violent attacks we are seeing around the world or do we need to look at each specifically to try to figure out what is going on?

SHAIKH: Look, a basic concept in psychology called fundamental attribution error and situational attribution. They give the example of a girl who slips on a banana peel and someone says because she is a cluts. No, she slipped on a banana peel.

So every country has its particular context. Yes it does, but I want to like draw attention to the general thing that applies across the world and that is extremist ideology. It's medieval, backward, Dark Age thinking.

LEMON: Do you think he is correct? Is Islam the underlying cause of -- at least backward idea of the theology, what is the underlying cause here?

ZUHDI JASSER, AMERICAN ISLAMIC FORUM FOR DEMOCRACY: I have to tell you listening to a lot of this. There is too much vagaries and apologetics. We have a problem, Don, and it's a clear problem of ideology. What is that ideology? It's political Islam. It's the Islamic state.

Not just ISIS. All forms of the Islamic State. Why? We are at the same time in history as Christianity was when it fought back against theocracy. We need Thomas Paynes and Thomas Jeffersons. So to say that they're unrelated, you know, the attacks on free speech in France. Today, a blogger, Raif Bedowe was whipped by the Saudi government, why, because he had a web site very similar to ours, the American Islamic Forum.

These are not unrelated. It's not just the violence. As long, Don, as we have the narrative about violent extremism, we are not going to win this.

LEMON: Did you say all of Islam?

JASSER: No. No, it's a large political movement. The Muslim Brotherhood, for example won, 30 percent, 40 percent of the vote in Egypt. One year of opening up that society did more to defeat Islamism than 60 years of Nasir, Sadat, and Mubarak.

Same thing in Tunisia, the Islamist were more organized, they won that election, but now they just got rejected. But the west has been missing in that, and Muslims are too busy, we're being victims. There is Islamaphobia. There is bigotry.

They are not dealing with the theology. You're not talking about the Sharia that is driving the instruments of kill the apostates, women get second and third class citizenship. There is no equality. Islam has to be constitution versus a western form, liberty based constitution based in reason.

LEMON: So, along the lines of whatever you are saying, here is what Rupert Murdoch tweeted out tonight. He said maybe most Muslims are peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing Jihadist cancer, they must be held responsible. Does it sound like he is blaming all Muslims to you, first to you, Dr. Jasser, and then I will get Mubin.

JASSER: No, I don't believe so. I think we need tough love. We need to take the tough medicine that ultimately. If you love Islam then the best thing that can happen to it is the rejection of theocracy and it's huge movements of the brotherhood, Iran Hkhomeini's movement.

But there are green revolutions and others in these countries. Yes we, have to acknowledge, that there are some Islams, political Islam, that's a threat.

The solution against that Islamopatriotism is patriotism for countries like America and France that believe in equality of all and the universal declaration of human rights not the Cairo declaration.

LEMON: I want you to respond, Mubin, but many people will say what you are saying, Dr. Jasser, is Islamaphobia, that you are somehow being bigoted in your comment and that you're targeting Muslims? How do you respond to that?

JASSER: That is people who don't want to deal with the issue that want to divert it from engaging in true reform. Was Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Payne, those who didn't want the word Christian in our documents, anti-Christian or were they pro freedom and wanted a personal relationship with God.

That's what I, I pray, I fast, I go to mosque, I believe in my scripture. But I don't want any imam and any government telling me how to do that. That's anti-Islamists, but it's pro-Muslim.

LEMON: Go ahead, Mubin.

SHAIKH: OK, first of all, Rupert Murdoch did blame all Muslims, it was very clear in the tweet and it's pretty obvious, and it's a ridiculous notion. Yes, sure most are peaceful, but we are going to blame you anyway for the actions of the extremists.

Point number two, these extremists consider most Muslims not Muslim enough as it is. So the idea that the vast majority of sensible Muslims can just, in the west, separate, what's happening in the Muslim world that we are going to influence the rest of the Muslim world is not realistic.

And number three, you know, I don't blame the religion. It's the interpretations. We are hearing about Thomas Payne on a lot of these philosophers being quoted.

European renaissance philosophers, Aristotelian philosophy came to Europe through the Muslims. Muslims were studying philosophy. Wait, let me finish.

LEMON: Let him finish.

SHAIKH: They were studying all these things because they had a desire for knowledge, scientific pursuit, the scientific method introduced into Europe by Muslim scientists.

So the argument that I'm making is that today there is a huge deficit in the Muslim world in turning to that kind of thinking that brought Islam to the golden age, which a lot of these guys are trying to gain again minus all of the critical thinking.

LEMON: OK, I have to run. They're in my ear telling me I have to go. But Dr. Jasser, do you want to respond and very quickly?

JASSER: Yes, those apologetics, sorry, are in the 12th, 13th century. We are finishing, we are dealing with 500-year-old, that says you should kill apostates, if you look at books, Saudi, and it says people who leave the faith should be killed. They should not speak against Islam.

That is 12th, 13th century mindset fueling radicalism, need the advocacy of liberals you are not engaging the idea. You are dismissing it. We are in denial.

SHAIKH: How did I dismiss it? I talked about history of Islamic science. I agree with you about backward interpretations, medieval thinking. I agree with you on that but to deny --

JASSER: The problem is the Islamic state.

LEMON: An ongoing conversation. I promise if you will both come back, I will have you both back.

SHAIKH: Well, it was history, not apologetics. Please use the correct terms. Thanks.

LEMON: Thank you, Gentlemen. We have a stunning story out of the hostage crisis to tell you about the kosher grocery in Paris. French media is reporting that hostages survived by hiding in a refrigerator for nearly five hours.

One father reportedly hid his toddler son wrapped in a jacket. Authorities praise the quick thinking of those hostages saying it might have saved their lives. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: This is breaking news here on CNN, police in France on the hunt for a suspected female terrorist and French media reporting this, that some hostages in the kosher market in Paris survived by hiding in a refrigerator for five hours.

Joining me now is Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, CNN military analyst and retired Delta Force commander. We are hearing about this in the refrigerator.

We are also hearing reports that a father had his toddler inside the supermarket refrigerator as well and an employee who texted tactical information to police from beneath a sink. Survival methods kick in when this happens. For many people, they've calm, cool, and others become frazzled.

LT. COL. JAMES REESE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Don, you are right. It's fight or flight. Big credits to the father of grabbing his son, in a situation like this, the best thing is to go. If you don't go, you could be dead. He decided to go. It's a good call.

LEMON: You should leave first. Never get in the car with someone. Never leave the original scene with someone. So your first response is the most important one and in this particular situation you said that should be flight.

REESE: Yes, Don, you know, it's fight or flight. And when I say by, now you can either stand and fight and see what happens or you try to get away. If a guy comes in with a gun and you are by yourself, you might as well try to get out of there.

LEMON: It is a split second decision. The people who were in -- in this market when it happened, you see many them, they hesitate in the beginning obviously because they don't know what is going on.

And then as soon as they -- I mean, the split second that they realize that the -- those tactical officers are in there. They're out of there very fast. One could only imagine the trauma that they are dealing with even at this moment.

REESE: Don, you know, I have seen this before in other hostage rescues. Families get to them. They have counselors there, but these people, they integrate back pretty quickly. They've been through a traumatic event, but they're just glad to be home at the end of the day.

LEMON: This happens in a public place, same thing. You should get out of the way. I want to read this just coming in. This is what some of the people said. An employee of the kosher supermarket who spoke to us after he survived and escaped said, "We are having trouble."

This is something else. Sorry about that. He said, when we came upstairs running, I went towards the cold room. I opened the door. And many people got into the cold room with me. I switched off the light and switched off the freezer.

Coulibaly asked us if all come upstairs otherwise he would kill everyone who is downstairs. I asked my colleagues what they thought, should we go upstairs or stay here.

With me there was one person with a 2-year-old baby. When I switched the light off in the cold room, I closed the door. I told them, you stay calm. I am the one who is going to go out.

I took the elevator, went upstairs, and when I went upstairs. I looked on the left then on the front then on the right, and I saw no one. I started running. I saw the policeman.

They told me to go down and put my hands on my head. This is just coming in, reading it as we are getting it here. To be able to give all of that matter of factually, this person had their wits about them.

REESE: Don, they did. You know what happens, when fear cuts in, it's a chemical reaction. Most people freeze. This guy had his wits. He had an understanding. He came out. He just made the right call. You know, god bless him he did that, but he made the right call.

LEMON: Is it smart not to obey what, what -- what the captors may be asking you to do?

REESE: Now, Don, if you are caught in that situation and it's between you and the gun barrel then the best thing for you to do is comply. And hopefully wait it out. Then the assault force can get in. But again, who am I to say and who are you to say.

I mean, whatever person comes up with, if they see a chance, just like we saw it in Australia. A couple people, they saw that break in the door. They jumped up and ran out. Good call.

LEMON: As we look, if we can put the video back up. I want to ask you about the video. We talked a little bit earlier about it. You said it appears that some of the gunfire that was going on and the officers -- and the people who were killed.

They may have been killed by the police officers, the hostages, I should say. They may have actually been killed by officers trying to rescue them? REESE: Now, Don, I do not think.

LEMON: Or shot by officers.

REESE: No, I don't think any hostages were shot. I think those hostages, when you saw that front, that mechanical door coming up. You can see the gentleman unfortunately laying there on this back.

LEMON: So you think the hostages had been killed before this happened. But, one or some of the officers if they were shot they may have been shot by their own men or women?

REESE: I do. If you look in the beginning there, there is an officer on the left-hand side who literally rushes in. And then breaks right in front of his, of his partner who is shooting for him. And just masks his gun. Lucky, he didn't get shot in the back.

LEMON: We're looking, just a frozen shot of, one of -- one of the captors trying to -- trying to run out, one of the shooters. Why would they try to do that? Is it just a last-ditch effort? I am going to try to go out in a blaze of glory. Does he really think that he could survive this?

REESE: You know, in the old days, hostage rescue forces were trained to shoot and the first thing to look for is hands. If there was nothing in their hands that meant they were no threat. But, you know after 9/11 with suicide bombs and everything else.

When a threat comes running at you, you are a threat until you are down on the ground. You know I think the guy just, he -- it was his last-ditch effort. He might have been out of ammunition. Because like I said, the French police shot, I counted, 71 rounds of ammunition. He might have been out of ammunition and decided to just go for it.

LEMON: Lt. Colonel James Reese, thank you very much. Breaking news here on CNN tonight, French media is reporting that some of the hostages in that kosher market in Paris survived by hiding in refrigerators for five hours.

Did French intelligence miss warning signs of the deadly attack on "Charlie Hebdo"? U.S. officials tell CNN they were worried about a strike like this so where might terrorists strike next? We will get answers when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Our breaking news tonight, the hunt for a female terror suspect in France. Did French intelligence miss some warning signs? Back with me now is Mubin Shaikh and joining me now is Kimberly Dozier. She is CNN's global affairs analyst and contributor to "The Daily Beast."

Hello to you again, Mubin. Hi, Kimberly. Thanks for joining us. Mubin, you first, as someone who communicates with potential terrorists, what do you think the next target could be? SHAIKH: Wow, that is a tough question. The reality is that they could pick from a number of places to make targets.

LEMON: It could be anywhere?

SHAIKH: There are so many trajectories that could come out of it. You could be a copycat's inspiration. Feeling emboldened by the success of the attack. Not just, tactically, but in theater in the media, right? They're looking for the headlines. It is very easy to do very easy to grab and can be done at any time, really.

LEMON: Kimberly, I know you have sources. What are your sources telling you about the French intelligence? How did they miss this?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Looking at which branch knew what, when did they know it? U.S. intelligence officials have told me, that they -- in their talks with different French intelligence agencies.

They have noticed that sometimes the internally focused agencies aren't communicating everything to external agencies. The same way the CIA and the FBI didn't share information before the attacks of 9/11.

So what this could be right now is a moment for those French officers to look at where we sharing everything we needed to share across the board? Were there any signs that we missed that could have prevented this?

LEMON: Kimberly, it's no not just, talking about this competition that concerns many people especially officials, but tonight, U.S. officials are telling CNN that this week's attack demonstrate that the boundaries between all of these affiliates are breaking, and now the threat is spreading, what are your sources telling you about that?

DOZIER: Well, they have been warning for quite some time that the different groups have been reaching out across the globe, trying to inspire people and that they have decided that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and ISIS both have decided that, a plethora of the small scale attacks can get as much media attention as much funding and as many followers as the attacks of 9/11.

You just need to throw more out there. Look at this attack in Paris on the magazine. It was fairly low-tech. With about a day's training, you could have the kind of expertise you need to open fire on victims at close range.

So, all -- al Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula had to do if they're clearly responsible for this is to give one brother training many years ago. Give him the idea of what to do and how to do it, and then just wait for him to declare a time and place.

LEMON: You know, there were new statements, Mubin, today from the FBI, and the Department of Homeland Security, State Department, all of -- warnings and different messages and that realistically though, what can the United States do to protect itself against this type of terror?

SHAIKH: Look it is going to be impossible to stop every single act. If there is an individual who is keeping quiet, who is off the grid, there is no signal or intelligence. There is no human intelligence.

You are not going to be. Don't have any eyes or ears on them. You are not going to find them. You are not going to stop them. The U.S. has, you know, has two things working for it. Not just, very robust, national security mechanism but resilience.

I think among the people, the population. American Muslims are well integrated. Support from inside and outside is helping the U.S.

LEMON: Kimberly, I want to ask you this. Have we've really entered a new era of terror where it doesn't matter how many people you kill, but rather how many people watch you do it. There are some who think that the media is doing the terrorist bidding by playing this, running it as breaking news. Is this a new era in that?

DOZIER: You know, I have to say for as long as I have been covering attacks of terrorism, it is a question you ask yourself every time you put the pictures on the air. You know, you know that you are in part spreading the message doing the terrorists job and doing their recruiting for them.

But at the same time, these attacks are happening. We have a responsibility to not just report the violence, but also the underlying causes --

LEMON: I have got to run. Kimberly, thank you very much for coming on a Friday. Thank you, Mubin as well. The leader of the Catholic league condemns the attack on "Charlie Hebdo."

But says that Muslims have a right to be angry at the satirical magazine, but Bill Donahue is being criticized for blaming the victims. I will talk to him about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Police in France are on the hunt for a suspected female terrorist. Three other terror suspects were killed by police today including the brothers accused of executing the satirical cartoonists of "Charlie Hebdo."

Joining me now is Bill Donohue, the president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights and Michael Smerconish, CNN political commentator and anchor of CNN's "Smerconish."

OK, Bill, you say Muslims are right to be angry. Here's what you write. You said those who work at this newspaper have a long and disgusting record of going way beyond the mere lampooning of public figures especially true of their depictions of religious figures.

You go on to say, it is too bad that he didn't, too bad that he didn't understand the role he played in his tragic death. In 2012 when asked why he insults Muslims he said Muhammad is not sacred to me. Had he not been so narcissistic he would not still be alive. Sounds look you are blaming the victims?

BILL DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE FOR RELIGIOUS AND CIVIL RIGHTS: No, I'm explaining what happens and this is a lack of common sense on this tragic individual was killed. Had he had any brains he would know that you don't keep, taking the red, the red flag, and throwing it into the bull's face.

Now who is responsible? The Muslim thugs are responsible. All right, let me make that very clear and I unequivocally condemn this. I'm not going to claim these guys are virgins, these people who are basically provocateurs, pornographers. We are not talking about an offensive --

LEMON: Had he not been so narcissistic he may still be alive.

DONOHUE: He would not be dead today had he exercised a measure of restraint. That's an explanation. Not justification for what the thugs did.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It sounds like both. I mean, respectfully it sounds like it is a justification of sorts for what went on here. We are talking individuals who made their living with magic markers, pens, pencils, not with guns and knives. I don't think it requires the sort of explanation that my friend is willing to offer.

LEMON: And you are getting lots of blow back for this.

DONOHUE: Yes, as well as from conservatives as well.

LEMON: You are not making conservatives or liberals happy these days?

DONOHUE: No, but I'm not in the popularity contest. I'm here to tell the truth. The country suffers from a deficit of restraint on the part of a lot of people in our society led by academe and the artists. If they exercise restraint and they reinterpreted freedom not in a maximal sense to do whatever the hell you want. Then people like him wouldn't be dead.

LEMON: What about free speech?

DONOHUE: Freedom of speech is not an absolute to begin with. There are all kinds of exceptions to freedom of speech, libel, slander, harassing phone calls and the like. Freedom, speech is one, one thing. But look, freedom of speech is the means to an end. The end is the makings of the good society.

LEMON: Go ahead, Michael.

DONOHUE: I don't like much of what I see especially in social media. People say horrific things about me online. You know, it goes with the territory, but by Bill's standard. It almost seems like you are giving somebody a pass to go after Bill Maher or even Jackie Mason.

And I think it gets awfully dangerous when you start to try and be the arbiter of what is good taste. This is filth, OK. This is not Mel Brooks. There is no role for it in western civilization. I'm not asking the government, by the way, to come in here and be the remedy. I'm saying why don't they exercise some self-censorship?

LEMON: All right, you were parodied on South Park at one point, let's watch it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: St. Peter was a rabbit and a rabbit should be pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kill him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He goes against the church. He must die.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, that does it, Bill, I am pretty sure that killing Jesus is not very Christian.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are soft, weak. You leave me no choice. Take them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am the pope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are no longer able to fulfill your duties to the Lord.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: You are saying throw Jesus in the jail. You are laughing now. How is this different than "Charlie Hebdo?"

DONOHUE: Because Jesus killed me in the end.

LEMON: But how is this different than "Charlie Hebdo"?

DONOHUE: I think that is a lot of fun. As a matter of fact, it's interesting because when that happened, Trey Parker, was one of the co-creators with Matt Stone, talking about me and complaints and the like. This is the sad commentary. He was honest.

He said, if Catholics don't like the way we depict Catholics on South Park then they can act violently like the Muslims and they don't have to worry. This is what is wrong with people like him. The only motivator to decency is fear. That's the answer.

LEMON: It sounds to people like you're saying, freedom of speech, freedom of expression as long as speech and expression, as long as you agree with it?

DONOHUE: People said you should sue them for libel they didn't have your permission. I got a kick out of it like the animated version of being roasted. If I don't like it as a public figure I would get out of the business. I have no problem with that depiction.

LEMON: The Catholic Church, they're no stranger to this.

SMERCONISH: One thing we would agree. I think the Catholic Church. I am a cafeteria catholic. He is the real deal. Take a little. Leave a little behind. I would argue the Catholic Church gets victimized the most.

LEMON: Don't you think satire is a way to bring to light at many times some key truths.

SMERCONISH: Truth in jest my parents said in raising me. I think that is appropriate in this instance.

DONOHUE: I have seen you and you could be comedic. I have never seen you insult people. I've never seen a mean spirited thing out of you. I have seen it out of Jon Stewart, out of Bill Maher. There is a big difference, people like you and people like them.

LEMON: Meaning?

DONOHUE: Meaning that they're mean. When you have Jon Stewart going on TV showing a naked woman with her legs spread and an emblem, picture of the Holy Family between her legs and they laugh at it and have a good time. He is not the friend of freedom. He is an enemy of freedom.

LEMON: Bill Donohue, Michael Smerconish, thank you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for watching tonight and this week. I'll see you back here next week. Our live coverage continues now with Errol Barnett and Natalie Allan. They are at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Have a great weekend.