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Don Lemon Tonight
Belgium Raids Foil Imminent Terror Attacks; Plot to Attack U.S. Capitol Ready to Go?; Complex U.S. Relationship with Saudi Arabia; Anti-Semitism in Europe at Peak Since WWII; Pope Francis Speaks Out Against Terrorism; The Whitest Oscars Since 1998
Aired January 15, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Tonight, breaking news. Belgium launches an extensive anti-terror operation thwarting what it describes as imminent major terrorist attack. A source says the terror cells had orders from ISIS.
We're going live to Belgium for all the latest information on that including the Belgian links to the terror attacks in Paris.
Also tonight a blogger sentenced to 1,000 lashes in a country the United States considers a major ally. What's going on here? How can this blogging and government beheadings happen in 2015?
And a surprising consequence of Europe's wave of hatred. Why one country finds itself a safe haven but for how long?
We're going to begin tonight, though, with the breaking news. Belgium Police launched 10 raids against suspected terrorists who say they were planning to mount major attacks. At least two suspects, we're told, in a gun battle with police.
We have all the very latest. All the angles of this story covered for you.
CNN's Phil Black is live in Verviers, Belgium, Deborah Feyerick is in New York, and Frederik Pleitgen is in Brussels.
Phil, we're going to start with you for the very latest. You are in Verviers tonight. We are watching video of the raid that happened earlier tonight. Tell us what happened.
PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, that video we showed just in the street behind me. It was in the early evening. It was at a time when locals tell us the police moved in very quickly. Shut down this road and then moved in, in force, in big numbers, heavily armed into a property just up the road here.
And the authorities say that when they entered this building the occupants, well, they opened fire pretty much straight away. And that gun battle followed. The locals tell us it went for five to 10 minutes. It was pretty fierce. Some very heavy weapons were used, they say. They heard a number of distinct large detonations, one of which they believe triggered a fire on the ground floor of that building.
When it was all over, the authorities say that two suspects had been killed, a third had been injured, and is now in custody.
This raid and others across Belgium tonight are all the result of an investigation the authorities say has been going on for some time now, pre-dating those recent terror attacks in Paris -- Don.
LEMON: So you said, others that are going on tonight. There are raids going on right now?
BLACK: We don't know where or to what extent where else in Belgium they are taking place or if they are taking place now as we speak. They're not happening here in Verviers. We have had reports that they and the Belgian authorities have said that they are taking place in other cities as well, although we don't know precise numbers, we don't know who else has been detained, or precisely what they have found -- Don.
LEMON: All right, Phil, stand by.
Deborah Feyerick, what are your sources telling you tonight about what triggered the raids conducted in Belgium?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We are learning that authorities -- dozen authorities already had these known extremists on their radar. However they developed key pieces of information which really accelerated the urgency and the timing of these particular raids.
Now you have to keep in mind, Don, that there are investigations going on all across Europe. It's not just France and Belgium, it is also the Netherlands and Germany, according to this source, but with respect to Belgium, two pieces of information, one from a Belgium arms dealer, the second involves two men recently returned to Belgium from Syria.
Now the Belgian arms dealer, it's believed that he provided weapons to the kosher market gunman Amedy Coulibaly, and when he was stopped and questioned, his place was searched, authorities went through all his belongings, his possessions, and he had names that actually matched names of known extremists already on the Belgians' radar. So that was a critical.
A second piece, two men returning from Syria also flew into Belgium. They were taken into custody over the weekend, and information that they provided during interrogations also led authorities to really step up the efforts there. They realized something was imminent as they have said and therefore they realized that time was of the essence, and they couldn't wait any longer -- Don.
LEMON: You said something was imminent. Do we know the possible target of the attack?
FEYERICK: Well, there are a number of obviously high value targets in Belgium. We are not hearing specific targets, but you have to keep in mind, for example, that European Commission headquarters are there, NATO is there, there are a number of U.S. troops that are stationed there, and the terrorists always go after the same targets again and again and again.
So, Belgium, very, very significant, symbolically, but also for the number of people and countries that could effectively be targeted.
LEMON: All right, Deb and Phi, both of you stand by as well.
I want to talk more about tonight's developments. Paul Cruickshank is a CNN terrorism analyst and the co-author of "Agent Storm."
Developments are happening very quickly in Belgium. What are your sources telling you?
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: They're happening very quickly indeed. I was speaking to a senior Belgian counterterrorism official earlier. He said they've been investigating this cell for some time. They believe they connected with ISIS in Syria. They suspect they were directed by ISIS in Syria to launch at an attack to retaliate to these airstrikes against the group for fighting on this base and other countries including Belgium.
Belgium is launching airstrikes against the group in Iraq. It's believed that the target may have possibly been police stations but they're not absolutely clear about that, that they had heavy weapons, Kalashnikovs, automatic weapons at their disposal. They're treating this very, very seriously indeed, and they're trying to round up this whole network in Belgium at the moment.
LEMON: So they believe that this was a terrorist cell that they have broken apart a larger network here?
CRUICKSHANK: Absolutely. And which was posing an imminent threat that might have been raised or launch the attack within perhaps even hours that this group was under surveillance. It's possible that wiretaps led to this of their cell phones' generated information which is very concerning to Belgium officials. Obviously there was that attack in Paris as well, and some concern that that could have inspired these guys to accelerate that plans -- Don.
LEMON: Was all this triggered by what happened at the kosher grocery store that they believe?
CRUICKSHANK: There does not appear to be any link between these two groups, between the group in Paris and this group in Belgium, the group in Belgium linked back to ISIS in Syria, the group in Paris linked back to al Qaeda in Yemen, and this other guy here was an ISIS inspired guy but didn't have that foreign travel (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: This is the -- the weapons guy, the arms dealer that's supposedly connected to Coulibaly. What do you know about that?
CRUICKSHANK: Yes. Well, the supposition is that he may have provided some of the weapons for that attack on the grocery store.
LEMON: Yes.
CRUICKSHANK: It's unclear at this point exactly what links he had to some of these other Belgium militants Deb has been reporting some new stuff tonight. They're still looking through all of that trying to figure it all out -- Don.
LEMON: And reports from people who are living there, and again this is not our reporting, but there are raids that are going on in different areas in Belgium tonight, right?
CRUICKSHANK: There have been raids all -- you know, all across the country in several locations in Belgium. There have been reports of loud bangs in different parts of the country. Everyone is really on edge.
LEMON: Yes.
CRUICKSHANK: Some false alarms in some places like Liege, but this is really an unprecedented moment for Europe. The idea that this group, ISIS, is now pivoting towards focusing on launching attacks against Europe and using all its resources has about 1,000 European recruits in its ranks, and all those training camps, has all that money, and the worry is they're going to be able to inflict carnage on the streets of Europe.
LEMON: And there's a suspect in custody and they're to get information from him, but you say this is a game-changer, right? This is because of ISIS. Why is this a game-changer?
CRUICKSHANK: The game, what I was just describing, that they may be pivoting towards launching attacks against the West using all those resources, and the worry is that Syria and Iraq are only going to be a safe haven for several years to come. We're seeing just a few kind of airstrikes every day, maybe at most 20. That's not a concerted air campaign.
I think there are very big questions for the international community, for the United States and the administration here, do they need to sort of accelerate the program in terms of taking on ISIS in Syria and Iraq, because otherwise we're going to see more of these kind of event unfold on the streets of major Western cities.
LEMON: And we'll be watching it very closely here on CNN, along with Paul Cruikshank.
Thank you, Paul. Appreciate it.
We've got a lot more ahead tonight, including more on our coverage of the anti-terror raids in Belgium. There are a lot of jihadists in that country. Why is that.
We'll get some answers coming up.
And what do we know about Christopher Lee Cornell, the Ohio man accused of plotting to attack the U.S. capitol. A former wrestling teammate and friend says Cornell's anti-government blog postings turned him off.
We're going to speak to him next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news tonight, Belgium Police launched a series of raids against suspected terrorists across Belgium saying major terrorist attacks were imminent.
Senior international correspondent Frederik Pleitgen live for us in Brussels right now.
What's going on in Belgium? Is it the same situation that we're seeing occur in France?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly is a very similar situation. And you could tell that the city here, I wouldn't necessarily say the whole city is on edge, however, there are a lot of security services certainly are on edge here, Don.
I'm standing right in front of the National Police Headquarters and the folks here certainly are at a very heightened state of alert. Their state of anti-terror alert has been heightened from two to three, on a scale of 4. As you can see a cop car actually racing past me right here, as we're speaking. That's the state of the security forces at this point in time.
We heard that the raids here in Brussels and other places were going on until very well into the night, might possibly actually still be going on. Another indication of a big concern here in society, Don, is the fact that Jewish schools in towns like Anthrop, also in Brussels, will be closed tomorrow. That's how concerned people are here -- Don.
LEMON: Why are there so many jihadists in Belgium, Fred?
PLEITGEN: You know, that's a very good question, because one of the things that we've been talking about for two years now is that there was this threat of jihadists leaving places like Belgium, places like France, like Germany, and coming back -- and going to Syria, and then coming back here to Europe to possibly perpetrate attacks. And something that these European societies have been talking about for a very long time.
They're always seem like an abstract threat to them until what happened in Paris, and now until what happened today. It's interesting because Paul Cruikshank was talking about this being a game-changer. It certainly is in the way that the Europeans perceive this threat.
Belgium specifically is a very, very special case. First of all, it's got quite a large Muslim population, about 6 percent of the population is Muslim. They enacted some very tough laws in the aftermath of 9/11 in 2001, for instance, women are not allowed to walk around in veils here, that is illegal. And also they have about 300 to 400 people who apparently went to Syria to go fight there.
It doesn't seem like a lot, but this is a country of only 11 million, and Belgium is in fact the country with the highest per capita amount of people who go to fight to places like Syria and Iraq. So they have a very large population, a lot of that is due to the fact that you have a very large Muslim population here that simply feels disenfranchised and has done so for a very long time -- Don.
LEMON: Frederik Pleitgen in Brussels. Frederik, thank you very much.
Tonight we are learning more about the Ohio man arrested for allegedly plotting to attack the U.S. capitol. The FBI says Christopher Cornell and a partner hatched a plan that was in its late stages and ready to go. But Cornell didn't know that his partner was an FBI informant.
So I'm joined now on the phone by a former high school wrestling teammate of his who asked us not to use his name.
I want to thank you for joining us. Tell me about your classmate Christopher.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris is more of a quiet guy. He never really talked much. He wrestled seventh and eighth grade, and in the freshman year, and then he quit. And after he quit, I really never talked to him after that, but I would see him around halls, and it was just -- he was more of a quieter type. And he never really talked.
I only really saw him hang out with his brother, and after high school, I followed him on Facebook for a little bit, and he started posting more and more anti-government post. And that's when I un- followed him and I didn't see anything about him until yesterday on the news.
LEMON: What kind of things was he posting?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just different anti-government, anti-military, just -- he was just against everything, every government, and every military thing there was.
LEMON: Did you ever think that he could be capable of what he is accused of?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't think that he would ever be able to do something like that.
LEMON: Yes. He never spoke to you about ISIS or any sort of terror organization?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not at all. He was just quiet all the time. And it was a surprise to me when I found out that he did it.
LEMON: Did you -- how did you find out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I actually -- my girlfriend texted me and told me about it, and then my mom texted me, and her friend was getting blown up in their minds about it. LEMON: OK. Thank you. We appreciate you joining us here on CNN, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
LEMON: All right. Let's talk now with Colonel James Reese, CNN military analyst, retired Delta Force commander and CEO of Tiger Swan, and Juliette Kayyem, CNN national security analyst and former assistant secretary to the Department of Homeland Security.
Is this -- straight out of central casting, but is it -- is it -- what is it?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's not surprising. Disaffected kid, who begins to sort of go against America, go against the military. He's probably reading things on social media, probably has a sense of himself that is greater than who he is ever going to become.
LEMON: All of the markings?
KAYYEM: All of the markings then starts talking. And what we don't know from the investigation perspective is the chicken and the egg factor, was this a -- is this a guy who was just sort of talking big talk and then the FBI comes in and says, oh -- with their informant and says I know how to get you guns or was this a guy further enough along. That will come out in the affidavit.
But, you know, this is -- this is what we've seen before.
LEMON: Textbook.
KAYYEM: And what unfortunately we'll see again.
LEMON: Quiet, kept to himself, all of a sudden he starts to post these things. What do you think?
LT. COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, just like you said, you know, a lot of these young kids today, they're disenfranchised. They're looking for a group. They don't know where to go, and then, you know, ISIS is so good at this propaganda and they get sucked into it, and it's their chance to be a rock star kind of, you know. Be in the spotlight.
LEMON: Yes. When I spoke to his last night, he said there's no way he was part of ISIS. And you don't think he was part of ISIS.
REESE: No, I don't think he's part of ISIS, but again it's that self- radicalization here in the U.S. that's most concerning.
LEMON: All right. I want to talk about the video that we have been seeing coming out of these anti-terror raids that are going on in Belgium. Video from one of the raids. Let's break it down first. Here it is.
REESE: So here's what you got right here. This is the initial breach here. LEMON: OK.
REESE: And again any time at 4:00 in the morning, if you hear a big boom, people get up out of their beds. This is what's happened here. This fire happens right here by what we call a flash bang. It's a diversionary tool that's used to make the bad guys looking opposite directions and unfortunately is in apartments like that calls fires very quickly. It's a clear case going up. The toughest thing these guys had to do here was flight up the stairs.
That's the one piece here.
LEMON: So it happened in the dark. It wasn't laid in a -- I understand it was in the evening just before 6:00 p.m. but you see, is this done under the cover of darkness usually?
REESE: Yes. That's the best thing you want to do. I mean, that's what -- you know, in Paris, the one thing I think they wish they could have done is wait until it got dark because everyone can see the approach and everything.
And the three elements of all these things you want to be able to do is surprise, speed and violence of action, to let these guys get in and really close with the bad guys.
LEMON: OK. Let's look at another piece of video here.
REESE: OK. So now you're at the top of the stairs. And this is where the engagement is really happening.
LEMON: You can see the smoke and then the camera go up here.
REESE: Right.
LEMON: What's going on?
REESE: What happened there is when flash bangs went off that the overpressure cracks those windows and shatters the windows, so the fire at the base of the staircase, smoke going up and the assault force is just moving up the stairs. And that's where you have the engagement. You can hear the different calibers of the -- between the AK-47s and the pistols going off by the people.
KAYYEM: And one thing, this is happening simultaneously in various places throughout Belgium, so the organization to pull this off simultaneously in different places is pretty remarkable. We saw the same thing in France, that if you are going to be take out multiple spots, take them out at the same time so that no one can communicate that, you know, that it's over.
LEMON: How equip do you think is a European government or are the governments in Europe to handle these operations?
KAYYEM: Well, not very in some respects, I mean, this is -- this is the scenario that everyone had been worried about that the organized, sophisticated, well planned targeted attacks that we saw on 9/11 in the years immediately after, would not reform in some other way in -- you know, on the European streets. We had a gap of time, fortunately in which there was this sort of lone wolves, these self-radicalized guys, and then sort of a big hit this week.
And I think everyone is waking up to it. I think the intelligence sharing is probably going to get more sophisticated, but it's clear that the challenges we have in the United States with intelligence sharing that the Europeans are having as well. Their agencies abroad know more or less than the agencies domestically, and ultimately, really it comes down to the radicalization that's happening in their own country.
LEMON: You said, to Colonel, that disconnection and nice in Belgium makes it -- makes ISIS a transnational --
REESE: Terrorists.
LEMON: Terrorist?
REESE: Yes. I mean, they have just focused on Syria, and they were focused on getting land -- and to build a caliphate, now they've had these fighters that were in Syria, have come out, this makes him them transnational.
LEMON: Do we have to change strategy now?
REESE: Does the U.S. have to change strategy?
LEMON: Yes.
REESE: Well, I don't know if it's changed strategy. It's just another organization on the block that we just have to watch your cell.
LEMON: Right.
REESE: There are different easy and unfortunately we just don't have all the assets to track everybody.
LEMON: I have to run. All right. Thank you, guys. Appreciate that.
Up next, two nations that could not be more different, one, a representative of democracy and the other an absolutely monarchy that flogs and beheads people. It's Saudi Arabia. It's one of America's hostess Allies in the Middle East.
We're going to explore the complex relationship.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The U.S. doesn't have many strong allies in the Middle East. In addition to Israel, its greatest ally, is the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. A nation that at first glance couldn't seem more different than our Western democracy.
CNN's Miguel Marquez has more on this complex relationship. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT ((voice-over): The man in the white shirt, Raif Badawi, is a Saudi Arabian citizen sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes with a cane. His crime -- starting this blog called "Free Saudi Liberals."
ENSAF HAIDAR, WIFE OF RAIF BADAWI (Through Translator): Every lash killed me.
MARQUEZ: His wife and three kid fearing for their own safety have now fled to Canada.
HAIDAR (Through Translator): Raif did not do anything. Raif did not carry a weapon. Raif's only weapon was his pen.
MARQUEZ: Convicted of insulting Islam, this his fate every Friday, handcuff, put on public display and hit 50 times with a cane. His first round last Friday, 19 Fridays to go, 950 lashes ahead.
The shocker here, the lashes carried out the same week the Saudi ambassador to France marched along with millions of others in the name of free speech. Saudi Arabia, home to Islam's holiest sites, Mecca in Medina, says in its system of Sharia law, the punishment fits the crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Kingdom will not back down on the issue of justice.
MARQUEZ: Badawi's case sharply criticized by human rights groups, the U.N. and governments worldwide.
JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: The United States government calls on Saudi authorities to cancel this brutal punishment.
MARQUEZ: But we've been here before. Saudi Arabia long criticized for its dismal record on free speech, women's issues, death penalty by beheading, and cutting off of body parts for crimes such as theft.
ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The Saudis, you know, they play to their own tune. They don't care.
MARQUEZ: Former CIA operative Robert Baer has written extensively about Saudi Arabia. He says the country in large parts gets a pass not only because it alone can control the price of oil, but it is America's best friend in a tough neighborhood.
BAER: I think the way we look at it is the Saudi royal family keeps a lid on a country that could come apart if it weren't for them. And it can be something much worse.
MARQUEZ: American presidents, whether Bush Senior, Clinton, Bush Jr., or Obama, have forged close relationships with the Saudis. That relationship tested like never before after the September 11th, 2001 terror attack. Fifteen of the 19 9/11 terrorists from Saudi Arabia. BAER: We still haven't seen the 9/11 report related to Saudi Arabia
and the financing.
MARQUEZ: The kingdom has made reforms aimed at curbing terror financing. But classification of 28 of the 9/11 report pages still hotly debated. It was highlighted in the 2004 Michael Moore film "Fahrenheit 9/11."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when Congress did complete its own investigation, the Bush White House censored 28 pages of the report.
MARQUEZ: A sharp reminder of the dual nature of the U.S.-Saudi relationship, a relationship being questioned again because of this man, Raif Badawi and his 1,000 lashes. Tomorrow, his wife says he's due for his next installment of 50 more.
Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Miguel, thank you very much.
I want to talk more about American-Saudi relations, the relationship, with Sarah Leah Whitson, executive director of the Middle East and North Africa Division of Human Rights Watch.
James Zogby is the president of the Arab-American institute.
Good evening to both of you.
Sarah, you wrote a piece for cnn.com posting this question you say, "Where are some Muslims getting the idea that violence against journalists who offend them is OK. Why do they see beheadings as a fitting punishment?" You say we need to look at Saudi Arabia, why?
SARAH LEAH WHITSON, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Well, Saudi is carrying out just exactly the source of punishment, violence against journalist, violence against the writers like Raif Badawi, and carrying out the beheadings as a fitting crime, doing so in the name of Islam, doing so in the name of defending Islam. So, we should not be surprised if ISIS and Al-Qaeda are modeling this behavior, and it makes some mockery really of fighting a war against ISIS and Al-Qaeda, because we are shocked at their behavior when our ally in this war is Saudi Arabia and it's doing the very same things.
LEMON: And you say that you also make the point that there's not much government can do the influence the extremist groups, but there's more that they can do if they influence an ally. What should the U.S. and other countries be doing that?
WHITSON: Well, at a minimum, they need to do more than put out meek little statements so that they say they are troubled by his gross abuses of the human rights by a very close ally. I think they should rethink their alliance in a war in an actual military campaign and political campaign against ISIS, because it really undermines the war against extremist groups when the ally is an extremist group. There are many levers that the international community does take against human rights abusers, including sanction, including travel bans and asset freezes, all of these can and should be readily be deployed.
LEMON: Alright. I want to get James in. James, I know that you condemn what they are doing to this blogger, but do you agree with Sarah? Should the U.S. put more pressure on Saudi Arabia?
JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT OF ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: No, I don't think so. I don't think it would -- it would end up being productive. I think the Saudis are making changes. They're making them at their own pace. And there are Saudis who want change to occur. There's a liberal current, as well as the conservative current. And frankly, there are people in Saudi Arabia that I've spoken to, who aren't happy at all and frustrated with the pace of change. But they understand that change is coming, and -- and I think that's the important thing. Understand something that we look at Saudi the Arabia and its behavior. We also have to look at Saudi Arabia and our relationship with them. They look at us and our behavior, and, and so there's a bit -- you know, I always think that governments need to approach each other with a sense of humility. We do after all have terror and torture that was exercised by the U.S. government in Iraq and around the world and they know those videos. They've seen the pictures from Abu Ghraib, and frankly, there was no accountability in our country for this behavior. And so, you know, I believe that the president has struck the right tone. He's been critical of them, he has spoken to them about it, but then he has not gone to the length of trying to publicly embarrass them...
LEMOMN: OK.
ZOGBY: Because frankly, that wouldn't work. Because, we don't have the moral authority as far as they are concerned to take that kind of stance.
LEMON: OK. So Sarah, do you want to respond?
WHITSON: Sure. We've been hear the change is coming to -- for a very, very long time in Saudi Arabia. But in fact, if you look at the record, change -- the only change that's been coming in Saudi Arabia is regression and more activists in jail, and more people being flogged and no real serious loosening of the absurd restrictions against women. And in fact, just in January, already, in this year alone, Saudi has beheaded 10 people already including a Burmese woman beheaded today. Again, if we don't think that these are good things when ISIS and Al-Qaeda do them, then there are also not good things when Saudi Arabia does that.
LEMON: Sarah, listen --
ZOGBY: And they aren't --
LEMON: Go ahead.
ZOGBY: And they aren't good things. And they aren't good things at all. And we understand that and in fact, the fact that we speak about them, Sarah, the fact that you take the lead in speaking about them is really very important, and it is important for those in Saudi Arabia who also want that change. But don't say there's no change. I've been going to the kingdom for 35 years there've been enormous changes. And just in the last year or so, textbooks have been revamped, thousands of teachers have been fired and imams have been removed from mosques, and Saudi Arabia has just contracted the American company to reform their entire education curriculum. Because they know they have a problem and they want to change for themselves, because they know that they have to enter the modern era. Breaking the back of the religious establishment and the control that he has in the country is something that this king has been committed to, and it is the slow work but it is happening, and frankly, the religious have much less control in the country today, than they had 20 years ago.
LEMON: The U.S. has -- among said that the -- the relationship with Saudi Arabia isn't important one but, honestly, how much of it has to really do with oil and money -- for excuse.
ZOGBY: Oh --
LEMON: Go ahead, Sarah.
WHITSON: Well, I mean, I think -- I think the U.S. relationship with Saudi Arabia is a -- is a complex one, and oil is only one factor.
LEMON: Yeah.
WHITSON: Another factor of course, stability and the other factor is who's willing to fight ISIS? And you know there are many strange bedfellows in this alliance against ISIS...
LEMON: Go ahead James.
WHITSON: It is a complicated reason.
ZOGBY: Well look, when we were fighting in Iraq that was not a war that Saudis thought was a really good idea, but they helped us. The surge was made possible, because the Saudis helps support the Sunday awakening movement that helped stabilize the situation and allow American forces to leave. Similarly, Saudis have taken it upon themselves to try to deal with other problems when they didn't find us being supportive. They took the initiative to do the Arab peace initiative, which has not got in recognition. That was a big deal in the Arab world, to the say 12 years ago, in the middle of everything that was going on with the second intifada to say, we will have recognize Israel and normalize relations if Israel makes the agreement to withdraw from the territories. It was a very big deal and no one paid attention to that.
LEMON: OK. We've got to run. Thank you, James Zogby, Sarah Whitson, appreciate you coming on.
ZOGBY: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up, many believe anti-Semitism in Europe is the worst it has been since World War II. Should there be cause for a concern in France's Jewish community? Next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Among the 17 killed in the Paris terrorist attacks were four Jewish customers of the kosher market that was taken over by a gunman. Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was among the world leaders present at the Paris unity march against terrorism on Sunday. With me now Ambassador Ron Dermer, Israel's ambassador to the U.S. and former senior adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Ambassador, as you look at the attacks in France and the killing of four Jewish patrons in the kosher grocery store. Do you think the world is more dangerous for Jewish people right now?
AMBASSADOR RON DERMER, ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Absolutely. Certainly, in Europe, you've seen a rising tide of anti-Semitism over the last few years. I think last year, France had about 400 different anti-Semitic incidents and a lot of French Jews have decided to move to Israel.
LEMOAN: Alright, so we gonna ask you a long question. Number one, the bodies -- four bodies have been brought back to the Israel to be buried. My question is why weren't they bury in France and may be it has to do with the prime minister telling Jewish people that they should leave France or Europe if they should, they are welcome in Israel. Is that the right message to be sending now?
DERMER: Well, it's a message that every Israeli Prime Minister has sent for the last 65 years. Israel is the homeland of Jewish people, and our message to Jews everywhere is you should safe where you are, we hope governments would take the actions necessary to make sure that the Jewish communities, they are safe. But, every Jew around the world should know, Don, that Israel is a place that they can call home. And when they come to Israel, they are not treated as foreigners who are arriving, but they're treated as people who are finally coming home to our ancient homeland.
LEMON: And so what is the message about sending the bodies being taken, the people being taken back to Israel to be buried?
DERMER: Well, I think it's a -- I actually think it was a request of the families and it is an offer that -- the prime minister made, and I think it's a personal decision for the families. You had a huge turnout at their funeral, because it is important to send a message that the Jewish people stand with those families, and I think that it is a very special place to be buried.
LEMON: Ambassador, the prime minister was front and center at the unity parade in Paris. Why not encourage French Jews to stand their ground in the face of terror and stay. Doesn't France need its Jewish population?
DERMER: Well, I think it's good for France to have a Jewish population, and I think the French Prime Minister said that if the Jews leave France, France will not be France anymore. But look, Israel is a country that -- since its inception, has called on Jews throughout the world at to come wherever they live. We hope they will come because they want a better life in Israel, maybe a more mean meaningful life in Israel. We hope they're not having to flee persecution, but it is very important, Don, to the understand something. One thing no one is asking themselves today, about those French -- the French Jewish community is do they have anywhere to go? They were Jews throughout history who -- faced persecution, who faced murder, they had nowhere to go, and the gates were closed to them. The gates of America, the gates of other countries were closed to them. Israel was established to make sure that Jews everywhere will always have a refuge, and that is a message that every prime minister proudly says, and he said it in France.
LEMON: Yeah. You talked about acts of violence being carried out against Jews, anti-Semitism. Specifically, France so the staggering number of Jews who have left and have gone to Israel, in 2013, it was 3,000 -- 2014, 7,000, 2015, 10,000 Jews expected. Are European leaders doing enough to protect the Jewish population and condemn anti- Semitism?
DERMER: Some are. Chancellor Merkel was a good example. She showed up a rally a few months ago in Germany and spoke very forcefully against anti-Semitism. The French President Hollande and the French Prime Minister had spoken out against anti-Semitism. But, you know, at the end of the day, what's happening to the Jewish community? Are they being protected? This is not the first attack on the Jews France. Two years ago, we had this horrific attack against the school in Toulouse where four children were killed, three children were killed. And there were a lot of commitments there were made then, a lot of strong expressions of solidarity and support. But unfortunately, the Jewish community feels very unsafe in France today, and I hope maybe this will be a wake-up call to French authorities to not only talk the talk, but to walk the walk, to do whatever they can to protect their community, I think it's important for France...
LEMON: What --
DERMER: And support for that Jewish community as well.
LEMON: What does this do for the relationship between France and Israel? Does it strengthens their relationship or does make it weaker? What does it do?
DERMER: Well, I'm sure it actually strengthens it, because the prime minister came to France, came to Paris because he wanted to express his solidarity with the French people and their battle against terror. You know Don, you know, Israel asked the world to the stand with us, in our battle against terrorism, and we think we're actually engaged in the same battle. So, I have no doubt that through this common experience who does this common struggle against terrorism -- militant Islamic terrorism I should say, that Israel and France will actually grow closer together.
LEMON: What about France's support though for Palestine?
DERMER: Well, I think that was unfortunate. And I think they rewarded bad behavior among the Palestinians, you know. One person was with the march in Paris was President Abbas of the Palestinian authority, and that's great. That he is -- is marching against the attacks that occurred in Paris. The problem for President Abbas is he is in a government with a designated terror organization. Hamas whose charter calls for the murder of Jews worldwide, so what kind of message that does that stand? If you're gonna stand against terrorism, stand against all terrorism. Not just terrorism against non Jews but also terrorism against Jews.
LEMON: Ambassador Dermer, thank you.
DERMER: Thank you.
LEMON: Coming up, Pope Francis speaks out about the Paris terror attacks and we will gonna discuss it with the host of New Day. Alisyn Camerota and Chris Cuomo, they join me, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Pope Francis has spoken out about the terrorist terror attacks, while never mentioning Charlie Hebdo by name, he did say that killing in the name of God is wrong, but it is also wrong to provoke people by bid leveling (ph) their religions. So joining me now to discuss this, CNN's New Day's Alisyn Camerota and Chris Cuomo -- of course you can watch them every morning on New Day starting 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. right here on CNN.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN'S NEW DAY CO-ANCHOR: Thank you.
LEMON: Now that we have the --
CAMEROTA: Thanks for that intro.
LEMON: Alright, let's talk about Pope Francis. He was asked today in regards to the Charlie Hebdo Muhammad cartoon. He was asked about freedom of expression. And he responded by saying, "One cannot make war or kill in the name of one's own religion." Right? So, and then he goes on to say that there are limits on freedom of expression, "A great friend, says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him. It's normal, it's normal. One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith" What do you say? Was it OK? You think it sound like his, in some way excusing what happen or blaming the victim?
CAMEROTA: No, he is saying two separate things, and you have to think about these things separately. He said the freedom of expression is a fundamental of human right -- that was one answer he gave. He also said that you cannot kill in God's name -- that's another answer. Separate and apart from that he was talking about decency and decorum and saying, you can't insult somebody's mother or insult somebody and expect they're not to be repercussions. They were separate thoughts -- I guess.
LEMON: He said there are limits. Most of it likes to think that there are no limits on freedom of expression.
CHRIS CUOMO: What does Don Lemon does not? Are there limits?
LEMON: Yeah. CUOMO: Sure there'll be limits?
LEMON: Absolutely. Because, I can't put swastika somewhere and said, "Oh, this is I am, it's just satirical." I can't put the N-word on assigned --
CUOMO: Legally? Or -- in terms of political correctness.
CAMEROTA: But it was talking morally.
LEMON: Yeah. I can do it. But, just because I can, doesn't mean I should and doesn't mean that people want to.
CUOMO: Well, there is a paradox, right? Do you have the right to do it and is it right to do it? Often, you do a very different conclusion. What we are dealing with right now, with Charlie Hebdo and what we we've seen -- very often in the United States is, people saying, hey, it's free, it's free. You know, it is free expression, everything's OK. That was never the intention of the first amendment, it was never that. That you can insult me as much as possible, but that's what the limit is supposed to be.
LEMON: But by that -- what the pope is saying, by that measure, any criticism of religion can be answered with violence. Does he actually understand that some people may interpret it that way?
CUOMO: I would have to believe. One, I'm a big fan of the pope, OK? So whatever he says, I'm -- I tend to agree with him, not because I'm a Catholic, I just think that he doesn't intend ill will, that's not how he is presented himself. But he is going too far -- obviously. You can insult religion, certainly in the United States and pretty much everywhere that allows freedom of expression.
CAMEROTA: But I think we are lumping it together. I don't think the pope is saying that time you insult religion, you should expect a punch in the nosed.
LEMON: No, he is saying don't do it.
CAMEROTA: I think that -- he is saying that have to --
LEMON: Think about it. Diminishing it (ph)
CAMEROTA: But there are decency and decorum, think about it, there may be repercussions. I don't think he's advocating violence or a punch on the nose.
CUOMO: But you know what? And yet he is, because he is saying, if you talk about my mom...
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: I'll punch you in face, and you know what? The irony is, he may be right on that, because hate speech is not allowed under the first amendment. And very likely, insulting this man's mother to his face and if Mr. Bergolia -- the pope's real name, loves his mother so much and you know it, and you know that it will violent if you say it and you say it Anywhere? You're not protectively. (ph)
LEMON: OK. Let's move on --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's talk about the --
CAMEROTA: The punch --
CUOMO: Punch you in the nose.
CAMEROTA: In the nose.
LEMON: Early this morning, on your show. The Oscar nominations came out, and you've talked about it. Let's talk about who got snubbed, some are calling it the whitest Oscar's since 1998. In fact, Oscar's so white is trending on Twitter. Did you guys see the Oscar is so white?
CUOMO: Yes. I've tweeted about it.
CAMEROTA: You know, what do you think?
CUOMO: I ask people what they think. And I got someone early on a very clear racial divide.
LEMON: Have you heard about this hot new trend call white men. The Oscar's and that's Kevin O'Keefe, that's what he tweeted.
CUOMO: Is it fair? Because you don't have anywhere near equal representation, does that mean that it is intentionally exclusive?
LEMON: OK. I answer that question after this. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those that have gone before us say no more.
CROWD: No more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more.
CROWD: No more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That means protest that means march that means disturb the peace that means jail, that means risk, and that is hard.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will not wait any longer. Give us the vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So that is Selma, it got nominated for best picture, but they thought Ava DuVernay, the director who get nominated on --
CAMEROTA: And she didn't.
LEMON: Yeah, David Oyelowo. Well, they thought he would get nominated as well for best actor.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I've only seen a few of the movies. That movie was spectacular.
CUOMO: And it was nominated for best picture.
LEMON: Actually, it was amazing.
CAMEROTA: But -- but none of the actor's were --
LEMON: I thought the directing was amazing --
CUOMO: Does it mean it's racist?
LEMON: No. It but. It still speaks to diversity. So, if you ask me the question, yes I would say there's an --
CUOMO: Hollywood? Probably the bastion of p.c. You think that as an industry would want to be intentionally exclusive?
CAMEROTA: No, but the academy.
LEMON: I don't think it's intentional.
CAMEROTA: The academy itself is not actually that diverse. There are 5,765 voting members of the academy, 94 percent of them are white.
LEMON: Yup.
CAMEROTA: 77 percent of them are male, for only 14 percent -- are under 50 that is not representative of the United States.
LEMON: Yeah.
CAMEROTA: That is a skewed representation.
LEMON; And I say it, because I -- as having watched Selma, which is real -- and I don't go to the movies a lot. That got went to a screening of Selma, and went back to see it. It's an amazing movie.
CUOMO: But it's an inherently an opinion.
CAMEROTA: Yes...
CUOMO: There's nothing objective about this...
CAMEROTA: It should the academy be more reprehensive --
CUOMO: Because there's no woman...
CAMEROTA: Be more diverse, should be the academy.
CUOMO: Look, we always want to strive to have every institution, be a reflection of who we are as a people.
LEMON: Of course.
CAMEROTA: Look, nobody is saying they want a female director or writer or black actress to be nominated gratuitously, just to check...
LEMON: Right.
CAMEROTA: Some sort of for (ph) the box. But it does seem peculiar...
CUOMO: I think the curiosity of --
CAMEROTA: That the academy is so white and so mad (ph)
CUOMO: Even enough to substantiate the point. I think my point is better for you, which is that you had, 12 years a slave and A Butler and only one got attention...
LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: Is that because they were both black films, and you only get one allowed.
LEMON: This --
CAMEROTA: Probably.
LEMON: We gonna leave you with this. At least this --
CUOMO: That's a problem.
LEMON: This was nominated. It's Selma, the song Glory, from the movie Selma by Common and John Legend is nominated for an Oscar. Thank you, guys.
CAMEROTA: Our pleasure.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
CAMEROTA: See you in the morning.
CUOMO: I love Legend.
CROWD: Glory...
JOHN LEGEND, SINGER: Now the war is not over, victory...
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: While some think the academy awards snubbed the film Selma, there is one place where the movie is getting recognition though. President Obama will host the cast and crew of Selma, for private screening at the White House, tomorrow night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cannot be taught by my own destiny.
LEMON: That is it for us tonight. Thanks for watching, I'm Don Lemon. AC360 starts right now.
ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. We begin tonight with Breaking News in the fight against terrorism in Europe.
