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Don Lemon Tonight
Boston's Record-Breaking Snowfall; Super Bowl Highlights; Worst Play in Super Bowl History; Politicians Show Support for Voluntary Vaccines; Doctors: Vaccination Should Not Be Up for Debate; Christie, Paul Comment on Vaccination Freedom; 104 Cases of Measles Across 14 States
Aired February 02, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, this is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Breaking news, frozen. Boston breaks a record for daily snowfall. 15.9 inches and counting. Even the New England Patriots' victory parade has been postponed because of snow.
A fitting end to a season full of problems -- the domestic violence allegations, the murder trial of a former Patriots' star, an NFL analyst and Hall of Famer arrested for soliciting prostitutes just hours after the Super Bowl, not to mention deflate-gate.
This play called the worst in Super Bowl history and this commercial that falls under that same heading.
We're also going to have the very latest also on Whitney Houston's daughter, Bobbi Kristina Brown, fighting for her life tonight. A source says she opened and closed her eyes just a few times today, but doctors say thye warned the family not to read too much into that.
We have got a whole lot to get to this evening, but I'm going to begin with a deadly storm that's got the northeast in an icy grip tonight.
CNN's Jennifer Gray is braving the cold for us in Boston where they broke a snowfall record today.
So, Jennifer, tens of millions affected by this storm. What's it like where you are?
JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, the snow is still falling. It's been falling since yesterday evening and you're right about those records. It has now been the snowiest seven-day stretch ever here in Boston. It has been the snowiest February 2nd ever here in Boston. And since January 1st, we have received more snow since -- than we typically get in an entire year.
So yes, even for Boston standards, this is a lot of snow. And just look behind me, the plows have been out. Very busy over the past week or so, trying to get all of this snow out of here. They've actually used front-end loaders, put it in big trucks, hauled it out of the city. They have three snow farms that they put it. They also have these big machines that will put the snow in and melt it and put it down in these drains that go underground.
So they have really been trying hard and it's been a race against time. Of course that parade, as you mentioned, postponed until Wednesday. Not only people in Boston trying to get to the parade, but people all around New England. The mayor said it's just not safe. We need one more day to help get these roads better before people start filing into the city. And just look at the road, it's a slushy mess.
And with these winds, temperatures are going to be dipping down well below zero. The windchill is going to be anywhere from 10 to 20 degrees below zero. So all of this is going to freeze. It is going to make the morning commute extremely dangerous.
Not only here in Boston, Don, but even in New York City, they're worried about that flash freezing as well.
You can see the plows coming up right there. And they've been coming one right after another, trying to get all of this clear before the morning commute -- Don.
LEMON: When is it going to let up? When is the storm going to let up, Jennifer?
GRAY: Well, the snow is ending now, but the temperatures are going to stay very, very cold. So that's it for the snow for the next couple of days. So we'll just be left with the cold temperatures tomorrow and also on Wednesday. By Thursday, though, we could see a little bit more snow. Lot of uncertainty on that forecast right now, but we'll be watching for Thursday.
But the good news is, the snow for now, Don, is letting up tonight.
LEMON: Stay warm, Jennifer Gray in Boston for us.
Now we want to turn to the other story that everybody is still talking about tonight. That unsettling Super Bowl ad from Nationwide Insurance. I want you to take a look at what I mean.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
I'll never learn to ride a bike. Or get cooties. I'll never learn to fly. Or travel the world with my best friend. And I won't ever get married. I couldn't grow up, because I died from an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At Nationwide, we believe in protecting what matters most -- your kids. Together we can make safe happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So it's just definitely a powerful message, but it's got people talking in a way that Nationwide may not have intended them to be talking. Joining me now, CNN and Turner Sports anchor Rachel Nichols, Richard
Kirshenbaum, CEO of New York advertising agency NSG/SWAT, and "New York Times" columnist Frank Bruni.
Hello to all of you. Did that bother -- did that commercial bother you?
RACHEL NICHOLS, CNN AND TURNER SPORTS ANCHOR: I just thought it was the wrong way to deliver a good message.
RICHARD KIRSHENBAUM, CEO, NSG/SWAT: It was buzzkill.
FRANK BRUNI, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST: Bob is too big a word.
LEMON: What do you mean?
BRUNI: I mean, I thought it was an odd commercial. It was confusing. I'm not sure what you're supposed to go out and buy that prevents a childhood accident. That's not what insurance does.
KIRSHENBAUM: It's a weighty issue, but it's not something I would have recommended.
LEMON: Is this a case of what were they thinking, you think now that --
KIRSHENBAUM: I think so. I think that, you know, it's a very tough situation to be in when you do something like that and the reaction is so negative.
NICHOLS: But -- there are ways to tackle social issues during the Super Bowl.
LEMON: Yes.
NICHOLS: This is the largest tenet we have in this country. The most people are watching the television at once than anything else that goes on any other time of the year. So it's actually a good time to get people's attention with social issues. But if you look at, say, the always commercial, that throw like a girl, run like a girl, that's a great way to get people talking about something that's very important, but in a way that sort of blends with the Super Bowl a little bit better.
LEMON: Go ahead, Frank.
BRUNI: I don't know why everyone's assuming this is a net loss for Nationwide. How many times have we said Nationwide right here? So I wonder, in some ways, did they anticipate this could have been one of the reactions. In politics, you see it all the time. Campaigns make ads they never expect to have long TV lives, but they expect everyone to talk about them.
KIRSHENBAUM: Being in the agency business, I don't agree. I think it's a very bad PR move for them. It's been a --
LEMON: Well, they said the ad wasn't about selling insurance. That's what they said afterwards.
KIRSHENBAUM: Right.
LEMON: It was about starting a conversation. And if it is about starting a conversation, if indeed it is --
KIRSHENBAUM: The --
LEMON: If you're going to spend millions on an ad for the Super Bowl I think I would --
(CROSSTALK)
NICHOLS: But you can start that conversation without having people be upset with you. Again, I'm going to give the always --
LEMON: But didn't they test this?
NICHOLS: -- that was a positive way to start that conversation.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSHENBAUM: The conversation is very important. But one has to remember, that while they tested it or not, the Super Bowl is about entertainment. And so people want to be entertained. And this was a very sobering message.
NICHOLS: Over even the commercial that ran the PSA against domestic violence. That was a very sobering ad. We talked about it on this show last week.
LEMON: We're going to talk about that later in the show, but we kind of warm people up to that.
NICHOLS: But they're not. And it's not (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSHENBAUM: Right.
LEMON: Yes.
KIRSHENBAUM: And that ad is not a bait and switch. It doesn't begin in one way and then deliver a --
NICHOLS: Exactly.
KIRSHENBAUM: Yes.
NICHOLS: That's exactly what I mean. There are ways to present important things. There's way to present serious things. There were serious themes about loving your dad and families that were part of these commercials.
BRUNI: I don't know we're having a serious conversation about keeping the bathtub level low. LEMON: Yes.
NICHOLS: Exactly.
LEMON: And maybe didn't strike me, I was watching, maybe it didn't strike me as -- it was a little serious, but I don't -- you know, I'm not a parent. So I thought maybe it was a good message for parents.
KIRSHENBAUM: When silence descended over the game for people and that's a really hard thing.
LEMON: Yes. 114.4 million people watched the game last night. That's a lot of people watching, they're watching the shark forget its dance moves.
NICHOLS: Left shark. I am team left shark. Are you team right or left shark, Don?
LEMON: I didn't think it was that bad. I didn't think it was that bad. But I mean, what was it like?
NICHOLS: You didn't answer the question.
LEMON: What did you say?
NICHOLS: You didn't answer the question.
LEMON: Am I -- I didn't hear you.
NICHOLS: Are you team left shark or team right shark?
LEMON: I'm team both sharks. That did not look easy to be in that stupid shark suit.
NICHOLS: Like being a Republican and a Democrat.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: And dance around. One can be that. You can have some conservative values and some liberal values. But what was it like both in the same quarter game and for the half-time show?
NICHOLS: Well, for the half-time show, there's a lot of expectation. I've been to a lot of these Super Bowl halftime shows. I will say, personally, watching Prince in the rain in Miami is sort of the benchmark for a lot of us who go to repeat Super Bowls, who were lucky enough to be there. Beyonce did a blow-out show.
So I think Katy Perry sort of fell a little bit short of those, but certainly there was a big push when Missy Elliott took the stage. I don't know what it was like for people at home. And then the dancing sharks was pretty exciting for those of us who are team left shark.
LEMON: Yes, and speaking of what did we say, 114.4 million people watching, Nationwide wasn't the only ad with a serious, somber, or emotional tone. There was the "How Girls Throw." Rachel mentioned that a little bit ago. That Dove took on fatherhood. You also saw the Nissan commercial featuring a race car driving father who couldn't be with his family. Take a look.
What happened to the commercials where we were like, oh, yes, that commercial was great.
NICHOLS: The frog with -- the Budweiser frog?
LEMON: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Madison Avenue has ceded creativity (INAUDIBLE) and all those things.
KIRSHENBAUM: I think we had that this year. We're not mentioning Kim Kardashian. I mean, like people love that. We don't -- we underestimate how -- what an incredible, you know, Internet celebrity she is. I mean, let's not, you know, underestimate her.
LEMON: Let's listen to your favorite commercial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM KARDASHIAN, ACTRESS: Hi, I'm Kim. Each month millions of gigs of unused data are taken back by wireless companies. Tragic. Data you paid for that can be used to see my makeup, my backhand, my outfits, my vacations, and my outfits. Sadly, all lost.
Please, help save the data.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KIRSHENBAUM: I think she was so great. She was a 10. She's a 10. She was brilliant. And I was really impressed by the commercial. I think it's going to do amazing.
LEMON: I'm sure a lot of people were impressed by some things in that commercial. I'm stunned every time I see it.
NICHOLS: Yes. You know, revealing.
LEMON: It's huge.
(LAUGHTER)
NICHOLS: (INAUDIBLE), Don.
LEMON: Yes. Ginormous. Anyway --
BRUNI: But there were six million likes, I believe, before the commercial even ran.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: And that's what the Super Bowl is about today. LEMON: But I want to get back to -- so you don't think that Madison
Avenue has ceded creativity to Instagram and Vine and all of that because you don't have the talking frog commercials anymore? Have we --
KIRSHENBAUM: But that's an example of it. I mean, Kim went on, I believe, "Conan" I believe, and introduced the commercial. It was a pre-Super Bowl launch, and she did a brilliant job at it. And then it went all over social media. So I think that -- in my mind, it's one of the greatest successes.
LEMON: Yes.
NICHOLS: He certainly see these rollouts before --
(CROSSTALK)
NICHOLS: In a way -- in a way that we didn't before, right?
BRUNI: I'll tell you what did strike me, this crop of Super Bowl ads versus previous ones. The most celebrity heavy, celebrity dense. I mean, think about the roll call. Pierce Brosnan, Liam Neeson, Sarah Silverman --
NICHOLS: Right.
BRUNI: It felt like the Oscars more than the Super Bowl commercials.
NICHOLS: And what's amazing is that to be sitting in the stadium, and we don't see the commercials, those of us who were in the stadium watching the game. But of course you're on your phone, you're following along on Twitter. And the Nationwide commercial got such a huge reaction online. But that's the only one I was really aware of before I walked out of the building. People then making fun of Nationwide, making fun of, you know, gee thanks for the dead kid.
That sort of thing. Julia Roberts, I believe, voices the Nationwide commercials, but there were people who -- I don't know if she voiced that one, but we're upset with her. So it's interesting the rebirth that this had through social media. I personally didn't hear that much on social media about Kim Kardashian's assets.
LEMON: Do we read --
NICHOLS: But I did hear about the Nationwide.
LEMON: Read too much into that? Because sometimes it's just -- Twitter is there just for reaction, whether positive or negative.
KIRSHENBAUM: Yes. Yes --
BRUNI: People were upset with this commercial before. People got on Twitter.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: But people are waiting for moments to get on Twitter.
KIRSHENBAUM: That's right.
BRUNI: So Twitter upset is the sort of ginned-up upset to begin with.
LEMON: Thank you very much. I agree with you. It's just -- that's what it's there for. The people that come on --
BRUNI: Right.
KIRSHENBAUM: Social media goes back both ways.
LEMON: Yes.
KIRSHENBAUM: That's what's different today.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it.
All right. See you a little bit later on in the show. And you guys as well. You're going to stick around, too.
We've got a lot more to come from the worst commercial to the worst play. What was Seahawks' head coach Pete Carroll thinking? I could not believe this play. That's the question that everyone is asking tonight. But is it just because we all love to whine?
I'm going to ask the man who says we're in danger of becoming a nation of complainers. And he's sitting right here on this set.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tough times for the NFL. Before the Super Bowl was even over, Coach Pete Carroll's decision to pass on the one-yard line was blasted. Some people saying it was the worst play in Super Bowl history. And even the Patriots' win came in the wake of the deflate- gate.
Back with me now, Rachel Nichols.
Rachel, we're going to talk about that play.
NICHOLS: OK.
LEMON: But now the Patriots have returned to Gillette Stadium. I'm wondering if the deflate -gate controversy has gone away now, as that victory has taken the heat off.
NICHOLS: I would actually say the opposite. Now you have the Super Bowl champions, who are under suspicion of possibly cheating the game. Not playing with integrity. This is going to be a bigger problem for the NFL now and a dicier investigation because the pressure has now ratcheted it up. How did they get there, to be raising that trophy? Did they bend the rules?
LEMON: I want to -- I want to listen now to some of your one-on-one interview with Patriots owner Robert Kraft. Let's take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICHOLS: How did all the accusations about the footballs and deflate- gate affect this team and how did it influence how this win feels?
ROBERT KRAFT, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS OWNER: I'm pretty proud, especially I'm proud of Brady and Belichick and the way they've handled themselves. People can throw anything out there and leak anything and then you folks in the media take that as fact. It's hard to compete with that. That's why, if you hear the statement that I spoke when I got here Monday, that says exactly how I feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So you say the NFL has more explaining to do. But what about the Patriots themselves? Have they vindicated themselves publicly?
NICHOLS: Well, to their fans. Their fans now say, hey, look, people who said that we had to cheat just to win a football game, we won the Super Bowl without cheating because those footballs were under the control of the NFL and we can win anything, we're the best team in the world. However, for people who love to hate the Patriots and there's certainly a lot of those in the football America, it's actually made them feel like they got it unfairly. And we think that they're less of a champion because of it.
And I do want to point you to Robert Kraft in that interview. I think you could tell he was angry and uncomfortable. And it wasn't with me. It was with Commissioner Roger Goodell. He did not acknowledge him during the trophy ceremony. That is huge. That never happens.
LEMON: What's up?
NICHOLS: So -- well, there's a real conflict here. There are people on one side who think that the closeness of Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell, and you may remember that a recent "GQ" article called Robert Kraft, the Patriots owner, the assistant commissioner, they were so close, is going to impede this investigation. And then on the other side, Robert Kraft and the Patriots are kind of upset there even is an investigation because they have been so close.
LEMON: Goodness.
NICHOLS: So he's sort of like, hey, I'm your buddy, I'm your pal, why are you investigating me? And also when he talked about the leaks and the people in the media, what that's about is that they think, the Patriots think, that the NFL has purposely leaked information to make the Patriots look bad.
LEMON: OK --
NICHOLS: This is shaping up into a real battle.
LEMON: I've got to get this in. And I'm sure Robert Kraft loved this play. But everyone is going, what were they thinking? What were they thinking? What were the Seahawks saying about that, about this play? NICHOLS: Pete Carroll, the Seahawks' coach, said that he did not have
the correct personnel match-up when that ball, when it was snapped, so basically that he could not run Marshawn Lynch because there was too much of a run defense there and that his idea was to throw the ball, at best to get a touchdown, at worst, you get an interception.
And for the people who say, no, no, I mean, at worst you get an incompletion. For the people who are saying, no, at worst, it's an interception. His point was hey, I trust my players. That's great. But let's trust the guy to run the ball who's the best in the NFL right now.
LEMON: Hey, I'm really out of time, but I want to get your reaction on Johnny football, Johnny Manziel, and also on Warren Sapp, of course with prostitution, Johnny Manziel rehab.
NICHOLS: Yes. Johnny Manziel clearly has had some issues through his rookie year. I think everybody should applaud him for taking a step to make himself better. And I think he has the well-wishes of the NFL. I think if he had ignored this, he would be more -- it would be more of a problem. The fact that he is going to get help. He's really got the support of the NFL community.
Warren Sapp, this is not his first strike and I'm not surprised that as an NFL employee, remember the NFL network is owned by the NFL, talk about a league that cannot take the heat right now. One of its employees soliciting prostitutes at the Super Bowl.
LEMON: Yes.
NICHOLS: I'm not surprised they let him go.
LEMON: All right. Stay right there, Rachel.
I want to bring in now Bob Stelton, host of "Bob and Groz" on 710 ESPN Seattle. I know it's Seattle.
So, Bob, what's your reaction in Seattle? What's the reaction to that final play where quarterback Russell Wilson decided not to pass it off to Marshawn Lynch? Instead he threw the ball from the one-yard line for an interception. That's got to be what everybody's talking about.
BOB STELTON, HOST, "BOB AND GROZ" ON 710 ESPN SEATTLE: It's all we talked about all day. It's all you're going to hear about for the next week. It's -- I mean, everybody seemed to have the same reaction. I mean, there was a lot of anger, there was a lot of confusion. And I was dumbfounded. I was sitting there watching this game with a bunch of friends. And I felt like one of those people that had been in a car accident.
You're in a state of shock and you don't realize how hurt you actually are. I really didn't have a reaction because it was so surreal. You're on the one-yard line. You are the best rushing offense in the NFL with the best and most unstoppable running back in the NFL and you elect to pass the ball in a heavily congested area on a slant route to probably your fourth or fifth option as a receiver in Ricardo Lockette, with all due respect to him. The play made no sense.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And they had two more chances.
STELTON: It didn't make any sense.
LEMON: Yes. Nobody understood that or still understands it.
Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll, you heard Rachel talk about it a little bit, refuted multiple reports that he changed that ill-fated goal line interception play to pass after another -- after Seahawks offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell called a running play.
What are you hearing there in Seattle? Who made that call and who is to blame for this?
STELTON: Well, listen, everybody's taking ownership of it. After the game, Darrell Bevell said, hey, it was my call. Pete Carroll has the opportunity and obviously the right to overrule me. Pete Carroll said nope, I said go ahead and throw it. I was on board. I think it was the right call. Tom Cable, the assistant head coach, the offensive line coach, they're
all on the headsets when that call is being made.
So if they viewed it the way we in Seattle, everybody else around the country, former players, currently players, if they thought it was as ridiculous as everybody else thought, somebody had the opportunity to step up and say, wait a minute. What are you talking about throwing the ball? We've got beast mode, we've got Marshawn Lynch and we are three feet away from taking the lead with 20 seconds left in this game.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And who was having a great game. Marshawn Lynch was having a great game.
Go ahead, Rachel.
NICHOLS: And I will say, if there's any solace for Seattle fans, and I understand there just might not be, the fact that, to your point, that everybody took responsibility. Russell Wilson said it was his fault. The receiver said it was his fault. That shows you this just might not be the kind of thing that will destroy this team because it certainly could. You certainly could have a lot of pointing fingers.
You could have it rip apart at the locker room as you go into next season. You're talking about a team that's a potential dynasty and maybe they will be able to move forward from this because they are taking a team first approach, but, man, it is going to be hard.
And Russell Wilson, you know, all of the commentators, everyone around me, talking, saying, oh, my gosh, you know what, this guy's underrated. He's quiet, he gets the job done. Everybody's talking about Tom Brady, but they're not talking about him. And all of that in one fell swoop is out.
NICHOLS: And that great catch.
LEMON: Yes.
NICHOLS: It's on the play before.
LEMON: Right. Right.
NICHOLS: That could have been the best catch in Super Bowl history and now we're not even going to remember it.
LEMON: Yes.
NICHOLS: People were saying David Tyree catch was jealous of that catch. Look at this.
LEMON: There it is. Look at that.
NICHOLS: I mean, this is -- this is amazing. This is a thing of beauty. And it was wasted.
LEMON: Wasted.
Bob, you hosted a three-hour show today. What were fans saying?
STELTON: They were mad. They were disappointed. There was anger. There was sorrow. You had a couple of people trying to put a positive spin on it, with, hey, we had a great season, and then they got back to the Super Bowl. And, you know, let's look at the bright side. But I think the day after a play like that, a day after a play that is being deemed the worst call in the history of the Super Bowl, that's a tough day to come back and go, hey, guys, it's OK, because look at all these good things that happened.
It doesn't work that way. People are going to dwell on this. And you know what, no matter what happens moving forward, the Seahawks could go to the Super Bowl next year and win, and people will still reflect on this one moment and talk about, yes, we've won this year, we've two out of three, but boy, we had a chance for a three-peat if not for this crazy, ridiculous play call that nobody can seem to truly justify and make sense of.
LEMON: They beat themselves, Rachel. They really did.
NICHOLS: They did. Everyone loves a redemption story, though. And I will point to the exhibit of the San Antonio Spurs who let Ray Allen take that shot in that game six, that everyone thought was surely won for San Antonio. The Heat went on to win the NBA Finals and it took them months to collect themselves again.
But they worked their way through the next season and then got the chance to face that team again and thrashed them and said that that victory was even more sweet because of what happened the year before.
Now it takes a while to get to that point. I don't think the Seahawks fans or the Seahawks players themselves are there yet, but I'll throw in with some of your callers. There's a little hope, it's just god, it's hard -- it's hard to talk about right now.
LEMON: I wonder what the call-out sick rate was or, you know, how many people feel they just got hammered.
NICHOLS: Drinking all day.
LEMON: Bob, thank you very much. Rachel, stand by.
Coming up, parents and politicians go head-to-head over kids' health. Should families' rights take a backseat to public health when it comes to measles?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Amid growing concern about the measles outbreak in the United States, two Republicans who are expected to run for the White House in 2016 took the issue of vaccinations into the political arena.
Today New Jersey Governor Chris Christie and Kentucky Senator Rand Paul both said that vaccinating children should sometimes be done on a voluntary basis.
Here's CNN's Jake Tapper.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: All I can say is that we vaccinated ours. But I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER": Today potential 2016 contender Governor Chris Christie entered the fray of the raging debate over the childhood measles vaccine.
CHRISTY: I didn't say I believe in people having the option. What I'm saying is you have to have that balance in considering parental concerns.
TAPPER: The New Jersey governor made his concerns in London about whether parents should be able to not vaccinate their children.
Also this morning, another 2016 potential hopeful, Senator Rand Paul, threw his opinion into the ring, saying most vaccines should be voluntary.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: While I think it's a good idea to take the vaccine, I think that's a personal decision for individuals to take.
TAPPER: Both statements seemed in contrast with President Obama on NBC, who minced no words.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is every reason to get vaccinated. There aren't reasons to not get vaccinated. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you telling parents should get their kids vaccinated.
OBAMA: You should get your kids vaccinated.
TAPPER: The medical community says that the question of whether or not parents should vaccinate their children is not up for political debate, it is better left to science, and the science is clear. Getting your children vaccinated prevents disease. According to the Centers for Disease Control, among children in the U.S. age 2 to 21, vaccination will prevent an estimated 322 million illnesses and 732,000 deaths.
JENNY MCCARTHY, ANTI-VACCINE ACTIVIST: I believe vaccinations triggered Evan's autism.
TAPPER: But some high profile spokespeople have launched a public movement against childhood vaccinations, based on the false and discredited theory that vaccines in some way, caused autism.
MCCARTHY: We deserve safe shots and a safer schedule.
TAPPER: The medical and scientific communities are very clear on this. There are no links, they say.
DR. ANNE SCHUCHAT, CDC'S NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES: There have been rumors, there have been concerns, there have been questions, there's a huge evidence base now, that the MMR vaccine is not linked to autism.
TAPPER: But the quackery, built on the tragedy of a rise in autism diagnoses has propelled an anti-vaccination movement, one that is now linked to the spread of preventable contagious diseases that can kill.
DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, CDC DIRECTOR: Choosing not to vaccinate your child also endangers the health of others in your community.
TAPPER: A recent outbreak of measles that began at Disneyland now accounts for most of the 102 measles cases spreading across more than a dozen states, putting the most vulnerable at risk. Those kids too young or too sick to get immunized are the most in danger. The science and medicine on childhood vaccines recommended by the CDC is settled, but the presidential contest may inject some serious ignorance into the bloodstream of this important public health issue.
Jake Tapper, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: One additional note from Jake Tapper. He's seen a list of required immunizations for children in New Jersey to Governor Chris Christie and the list of required immunization for children in Kentucky to Senator Rand Paul, and asked each man which immunization they thought should be made voluntary if any. He did not hear back from either Governor Christie or Senator Rand Paul. Up next, Frank Bruni of the New York Times, he writes about the Vaccine Lunacy and why a disease that was once just about eliminated is now a threat to Americans again.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Measles was declared eliminated in the United States in 2000, but now it is back with a vengeance and Frank Bruni is back with me now. So let's talk about the --
FRANK BRUNI, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Vengeance.
LEMON: With the vengeance yeah, right. Let's talk about these numbers here, up on the CDC the case of -- 102 cases Frank, in 14 states just in the first month of this year...
BRUNI: Right.
LEMON: Despite the growing numbers, we heard what Chris Christie had to say to parents about a choice, right?
BRUNI: Right.
LEMON: And you've heard with Rand Paul said. Rand Paul also said this. I want you to listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PAUL: I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal
children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BRUNI: I'm really glad you played that clip, because we've been
talking about Christie and Rand Paul in the same breath, and if you look at what both of them said today, -- both of them have issues with what they said. What Rand Paul said was infinitely more responsible, and it's kind of mind blowing to think he's the one who is a doctor.
LEMON: Why is it infinitely more irresponsible?
BRUNI: Because Chris Christie was trying to say, -- I'm not exactly sure what he was trying to do, but he --
LEMONM: He was trying to have it both ways, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BRUNI: He did at least say, when we're talking the measles vaccine, absolutely vaccinate your kids, and he did say I vaccinated my kids. And the balance of this message was pro-vaccination. Wasn't as far in that direction is the president went, the president was in the right place. Rand Paul, actually kind of brought to you, hey, I've seen kids get the vaccines and turn into zombies, is what it sounded like. The number of cases where that happens are so small, there's no proven link between the vaccine and what happens to these kids that he's thinking of. If you talk to responsible doctors about this, a lot of bad stuff happens to kids at a young age. Some of it happens right after they got vaccinated.
LEMON: Yeah. BRUNI: Do we -- do we know that the vaccine is the cause? No, in fact we know pretty well the vaccine isn't the cause.
LEMON: Yeah. When I was a kid, you could not go to school. You could not go to school. You had to have your shots. I'm not a parent, so I don't know what it's like nowadays, but the fact that it's a choice, is mind-boggling to these people.
BRUNI: It's somewhere between a choice and a mandate. It varies from state to state. There are interestingly only two states that limit your vaccine exemptions to a proven medical exemption. Meaning, your immune system is compromised or something like that, those states are Mississippi and West Virginia...
LEMON: West Virginia, right.
BRUNI: And it's odd to have a conversation in which we're kind of holding them up is almost progressive on this issue.
LEMON: Yeah. Is this gonna matter in 2016, as we go -- you know, run towards the presidential election and the elections --
BRUNI: Depends entirely on the size and the duration of this outbreak.
LEMON: Yeah. What do you think about the spread of the disease in such a short time, as we said 122 -- 102 cases of measles in 14 states, just the first month of this year?
BRUNI: Right. Well, last year we had somewhere in the mid 600s, so we're on pace to well exceed that. Here's what's really scary. The fatality rate with measles is about 1 in 1,000. We're on pace right now, to have more than a thousand measles cases this year, right? If you do the arithmetic?
LEMON: Right.
BRUNI: I really hope we don't see a measles death, a preventable measles death.
LEMON: OK. As you say it was infinitively more irresponsible and you were surprised because you said, Rand Paul is a doctor.
BRUNI: Yeah. The last time I checked, yeah.
LEMON: OK. Let's look at this, you write about this in an Op-Ed it's called the Vaccine Lunacy, OK? You said but, what's in play is more than one -- one affliction, right? -- One affliction resurgence. The size and the sway of the anti-vaccine movement reflect a chilling disregard for science or at least a pick and choose cafeteria approach to it. That's also evident for example, and many Americans' refusal to recognize climate change. You -- you think that these are the -- sort of natural people who are promoting this. And really people of privilege who are promoting this?
BRUNI: Yeah. You mentioned this, which is interesting. I think a lot of anti-vaccine people probably would hate to hear themselves lumped in with the climate-change deniers, but they're doing the same thing from different places on the political spectrum. They're basically saying, when my gut or when what I want to believe is different from science, I'm gonna go with my gut and what I want to believe over science. And I think it happens across a spectrum of issues, I think it's a problem.
LEMON: Why are we seeing so many parents? Especially parents, when you think of the -- when you think of the natural crowd, wouldn't you think that these are more learned people, maybe I'm wrong.
BRUNI: Some of them are.
LEMON: Yeah.
BRUNI: But I mean -- I think learn it is a term they can work in a lot of ways. They may be packed full of a lot of information, they may not be that bright about the way they process it. But --
LEMON: Yeah.
BRUNI: You -- you used the phrase all natural. And a lot of these people are -- be on natural crowd. If they really want to live all natural, are they getting dentistry for their kids? Are they getting orthodontics -- I mean, all natural. When we live on all natural you go back far enough, we were dying at 30 and 40. I don't think we really want to live all natural.
LEMON: Yeah, interesting. Chris Christie now, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) NEW JERSEY: All I could say is that I -- we vaccinated ours. And so, you know, that's the -- the best expression I can give you on my opinion. You know, it's much more important I think with what you think as a parent, than what you think as a public official. And that's what we do, but I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well. So that's the balance that the government has to decide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The question of choice has become the presidential question of the year. As I asked earlier, this gonna be key in 2016. It is certainly the question right now.
BRUNI: Yes, right. But we don't know what's gonna happen with this outbreak and -- I mean, you see how quickly we move from one issue to another, I mean, very, very quickly. Listening to him talk about it, I got the distinctive impression of a politician who hadn't really caught up to speed on this. I got the feeling he didn't know what to say or what he wanted to say, because the story has exploded so quickly over the last couple days. He didn't feel prepped in a way you often see politicians prep.
LEMON: I want to talk to you about outrage, the real outrage and faux outrage, but do you think that the outrage of some people see around this particular issue, that people are just taking science and throwing it out the window, do you think that they have every right to be outraged by this? Especially, if your child has to be in school...
BRUNI: Absolutely.
LEMON: Or in close proximity?
BRUNI: Yeah, because -- those people who aren't getting their kids vaccinated, and they were bringing to us to appoint where we could lose what's called herd immunity.
LEMON: Right.
BRUNI: They're endangering potentially everyone's kids. They infancy can't be vaccinate yet. The vaccine isn't a 100 percent effective even if you have it. So, this is a public health matter and when you decide not to vaccinate your child, you are potentially -- if enough people do that, that could affect any of everyone's children. It's not just a personal choice. There are all sorts of things in society where we limit personnel choice when it has to potentially severe a public impact.
LEMON: Yeah. So I was in a place the other day, and I said would you -- I -- on the menu, this -- would you like this or this? And I said which one would you like? And the person said, I'm taking a class on -- it was some sort of -- you know, your -- choice and your brain works, and I'm gonna say, I just want you to know which one you like better or which one you like better. Whatever they said, I was gonna eat it, right?
BRUNI: OK.
LEMON: But I'm wondering if there is some sort of cache, social cache and you know that goes around not getting your child vaccinated. I'm taking classes on how -- with naturalism and blah, blah, blah and it's just the wrong information.
BRUNI: Well, I think there's a little bit of I'm smarter than the others. Everybody else is blindly following the herd and I'm thinking for myself. But you know what? The people who are not having their kids vaccinated, they're not really thinking for themselves. They're getting a lot of this from internet sites -- that they've gone. The internet is a problem here, because it allows everybody to be their own researcher. It brings you the sites that are there in abundance whether they have any merit, or whether they have no merit at all. So there's a whole -- there are a whole lot of self-education going on here -- that's dangerous.
LEMON: Yeah. Get your child vaccinated?
BRUNI: Get your child vaccinated.
LEMON: Thank you, Frank Bruni. Thank you, appreciated. Up next, two pediatricians go head to head on vaccinations for children, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Last year, there were more than 600 cases of measles reported in the U.S. that is the highest number since the disease was declared eliminated in this country in 2000. But today, a CDC official expressed concern that we already have 102 cases of measles in 14 states and we're only one month in to 2015.
Here to talk about all of this is, Dr. Bob Sears, he's a pediatrician and author of "The Vaccine Book", and Dr. Harvey Karp, also a pediatrician and a fellow the American Academy Pediatrics and the author of "The Happiest Baby on the Block".
Good evening, doctors. Doctor Sears' first. Parents come to you for advice about vaccinating their children. You know that study after study has been done finding the evidence to suggest that vaccines are dangerous, are connected to no evidence, connected to autism. Why do you continue to tell parents that it's OK for them to vaccinate or to delay it when there's no evidence showing that?
DR. BOB SEARS, PEDIATRICIAN: Well Don, as you know, every parent wants to do what's best for their child. They want their children to be healthy, and they want to make the decisions. And all these parents on both sides of the issue, they love their children. And -- you know, for me in my office Don, it's not so much -- you know about vaccines and autism as the parents just don't want to see their babies suffer any sort of bad vaccine reaction. Frankly, the vaccine reactions are rare, but when they do happen, you know, the parents are afraid that their baby will be one of those statistics. And when they're not afraid of the disease, like measles, which hasn't been around much, a lot of my parents actually opt out of the MMR vaccine, because they haven't seen measles as much of a threat until recently.
LEMON: Is it still a choice though? Is it still a choice doctor, when your child has to be around other children, especially in a public school situation?
SEARS: Well Don, I think one of the most important things we have in medicine is what's called informed consent. If for any medical procedure, you have to inform the patient, whether its surgery, the medication, or vaccination, you have to inform them of the pros and the cons. What could the side effects be? What could the harm be from this treatment? And would be the benefits of this treatment, and because, every single vaccine has a very small potential to cause harm, I think parents do have the right to receive informed consent and to make that educated decision for their child.
LEMON: OK. But Dr. Karp, again, there's no scientific evidence of this. What's your response?
HARVEY KARP, M.D., F.A.A.P., PEDIATRICIAN: No, No, it's just nonsense, to be honest with you. I mean, of course there can be a small risk to one thing or other thing. Hey, there's a bigger risk of driving in your car. We don't have patients going I'm not going to drive in my car, because that's a risk on my child's life today. We have to -- you look, parents have a tough job. I think -- I really agree with, with Dr. Sears on that. They're trying to make their best choices, but as doctors, we know more than just living in the moment. We've lived over decades. We've learned about these epidemics. We're seeing it with whooping cough and with measles. The only reason that we're not seeing a lot of illness is because, the parents before us and the parents before them were thrilled to get their kids immunized. That's the reason why the diseases are gone. and if parents no longer feel that sense of responsibility, if we don't encourage them and say, hey, you need to do this, not just to protect your child, but what about that kid in preschool and your next-door neighbor's baby and your cousin's baby? We're all in this together. We don't live in a bubble.
LEMON: Dr. Karp, is it irresponsible to delay that vaccination process?
KARP: I think it's irresponsible to avoid vaccines. You know, we have a set schedule, because it gets very complicated. I'll do this one now and I'll do it that one then and then doctors forget and the patients forget. And what happens then is that babies don't get their full vaccinations. So we do a schedule so that it allows us -- number one, to give the most vulnerable kids the protection they need and so we can be organized in it. And that's -- that's the big reason. So is it irresponsible, not to get your kid the right vaccines. Some of the vaccines -- you know, if you don't want to give your child a tetanus shot, that's OK. I mean your child is the only one who's gonna suffer from that, no one else will gonna suffer. But to not give your child, you know, a whooping cough vaccine or a measles vaccine, that's gonna make everybody else suffer. And ultimately, kids are gonna die.
LEMON: OK. I want to read something here. This is what Hillary Clinton just tweeted (ph) a short time ago. And I'm reading (inaudible) just gonna say, the science is clear, the earth is round, the sky is blue, and vaccinations work. Let's protect all our kids. It says grandmothers know best -- as you know grandmother last year but, --
KARP: Yes.
LEMON: There -- there you go. Hillary Clinton is tweeting (ph) this. First, I want to get your response, Dr. Sears and then Dr. Karp.
SEARS: Well Dion, You know, of course vaccines work. I'll be one of the first people to tell you that they work and they work very well. Some work, you know 99 percent, some not so much. But I think, Don, ultimately, it does come down to the fact that no matter how much everyone wants to try to ignore it, vaccines can cause severe reactions. You know, every year in the United States between 3,000 and 4,500 severe vaccine reactions are reported to the centers for disease control. Not mild reactions, severe reactions that land somebody in the hospital, the Intensive Care Unit or cause a permanent disability or death.
LEMON: Yeah.
SEARS: 3,000 to 4,500 --
KAPR: But as long as it goes --
SEARS: Vaccine side effects. Now, now, now I agree that the diseases also pose a risk. There's a risk no matter what you do and I think one side can't ignore...
LEMON: OK.
SEARS: The other side's worry. We all have to come together on this.
LEMON: Reaction, Dr. Karp?
KARP: Yeah, before at number one, many of those side effects are not related to the vaccines, except that they happen after the child gets the vaccine. So they're not really vaccine side effects as much as things are reported after the vaccines. But what we know for sure is before we had the measles vaccination. Children were dying, there were thousands of children hospitalized, they were hundreds of children dying for measles, it's not just a mild illness, it's a severe problem.
LEMON: OK. Since you're said that --
KARP: And so --
LEMON: Since you're saying that and you continue on with this. But let me put this up. This is some facts. This is from the CDC, OK? Is it among children ages 2 to 21 vaccinations will prevent -- 2 to 21 vaccinations will prevent, 322 million illnesses. It says, 21 million hospitalizations, 732,000 deaths during their lifetime.
KARP: It's a no-brainer Don, it's a no-brainer. And even, even Dr. Sears will say, this is a huge blessing, vaccines have saved millions of lives and incredible suffering. I mean, he probably remembers. I certainly remember kids with meningitis, kids with blindness, kids who died in my practice, who now kids are protected because we have vaccines against those...
LEMON: Dr. Sears --
KAPR: And they're incredibly safe, a thousand times safer than getting the illness.
LEMON: Dr. Sears, the conference last year, you spoke to a group about vaccines and here's what he said as she's in L.A. Times quotes you as saying this, OK? He says, "I do not think that the disease -- I do think -- excuse me, that the disease danger is low enough where I think you can safely raise an unvaccinated child in today's society. It may not be good for the public health but, for your individual child, I think it is safe -- it is a safe enough choice." You said, "I do think the disease danger is low enough where I think you can safely raise an unvaccinated child in today's society." Do you stand by those words?
SEARS: Yes -- Don, and I -- would still hold to that, that some parents do have the freedom in America to make this choice, because we shouldn't force medical care on anybody. But I -- have to acknowledge, you know, Harvey is right, Dr. Karp is right. Vaccines have brought us to this tremendous place where we can live almost disease-free. You have to acknowledge that vaccines are largely responsible for that. I think now that the diseases are so rare, that parents can feel somewhat safe --
KARP: But they're rare, but they --
SEARS: About not vaccinating?
KARP: Can come right back. They're rare, but they can come right back.
SEARS: You're right. You're right. It's a public health.
KARP: Yes.
SEARS: I would just say public health means the health of the child next door, instead of the health of your child. And we need to be concerned about the whole community, because you know what? It's gonna be your next child who's gonna catch it from the next-door neighbor...
LEMON: Dr. Karp...
SEARS: If people stop getting vaccinated.
LEMON: And Dr. Sears, thank you, very much. Appreciated both of you gentlemen, we'll be right back.
SEARS: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
