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Don Lemon Tonight

Fight Against ISIS; Pilot's Father Demands Revenge Against ISIS; ISIS Masters the Art of Propaganda

Aired February 04, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. military moving assets to Iraq to fight ISIS. We're going to have the very latest on that.

Plus, it's being called the most sickening thing you could see. The execution of the fighter pilot burned alive by ISIS. And while CNN is not showing it, this may be even worse.

Reports that ISIS played the video of the pilot's murder on big screens to cheering crowds in Syria, including at least one child. All part of ISIS propaganda war. Are they winning?

Plus planes, trains and crashes. Two deadly accidents caught on camera. A pilot's doomed effort to avoid this deadly crash. What went wrong and what do the black boxes tell us?

Also, terror on the tracks. A train smashes into an SUV, bursts into flames. How commuters on their way home escaped the inferno.

And drama in the court. What happens in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial when the victim's mother sees a photo of her son, and why the jury doesn't even know about it.

We're going to get to all of that tonight. But I want to begin with the breaking news. U.S. military moving assets to Iraq to fight ISIS.

Michelle Kosinski is at the White House. Jomana Karadsheh is in Amman, Jordan.

Michelle, I'm going to begin with you. You know, the breaking news is that the U.S. again has shifted into northern Iraq. What is the very latest?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. This is the shifting a specific search and rescue asset, or in this case, aircraft, into northern Iraq. Now these aircrafts are moved and shifted on a constant basis as the mission changes, as the location of airstrikes changed. So I think what you can gather from this is that there is going to be more action in this area in northern Iraq.

We're talking over flights and airstrikes. Any of these situations where the pilots would be overhead, and as a result would be at risk. So clearly the U.S. military wants to make sure that those rescue assets are there just in case something happens.

I think it'll be interesting to see whether this is a result of Jordan promising more airstrikes in the near future. We'll just have to wait and see where those locations are. In talking about this, this U.S. official who's giving us this information, it's not as if they're giving away something to the enemy as it might seem, the fact that we're talking about locations. Just because these airstrikes have been constant, the locations have been spread out and changing, and a lot of these targets that they're hitting are fixed, they're stationary.

So it's not as if ISIS can move a building or an airplane hangar in a big hurry. I think it's clear that we're going to see more of these airstrikes and soon -- Don.

LEMON: And Michelle, you know, we have heard today that the United Arab Emirates has stopped airstrikes on ISIS. Is the U.S. military moved a response to this?

KOSINSKI: Well, this official is saying, no, that these assets are shifted as the mission is constantly changing. I think what's interesting is that the UAE was saying that they have stopped airstrikes, and they were an important partner. Still a member of the coalition, but they were an important partner in actually conducting these airstrikes. I mean, so few other -- other nations are doing this, especially in Syria.

But they said that they felt once this Jordanian pilot was captured in December, that they felt that the response to rescue was too slow, that that might have contributed to him being captured, and they were concerned about their own pilots being at risk. I mean, this is a big deal. The U.S. response, though, is that there was an intensive rescue operation initiated right after this happened.

As a result of circumstances on the ground, they could not get to this pilot. But the U.S. is disputing that those rescue assets were not available. They say that was not the case in this situation and that precautions have been being taken so that pilots aren't at risk. In fact, some analysts think that the UAE is doing this, and saying that that's the reason for stopping the airstrikes.

LEMON: Right.

KOSINSKI: It's kind of a smoke screen or an excuse for maybe political pressure inside the UAE because, you know, in some of these Arab countries, the opinion, especially public opinion, has been split.

LEMON: Right.

KOSINSKI: But the thought is now with -- with the terrible murder of this Jordanian pilot that the pressure will be on again. And some analysts saying that the UAE will soon resume those airstrikes.

LEMON: And Michelle, speaking of the Jordanian pilot, Jomana, the father of the Jordanian pilot that ISIS so brutally killed, is demanding the government avenge his son. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SAFI AL-KASASBEH, FATHER OF JORDANIAN PILOT (Through Translator): I demand that the government of Jordan avenge the blood of Moaz. I demand that revenge should be bigger than executing prisoners. I demand that this criminal organization Daesh should be annihilated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There are reports that say that the pilot's mother ran into the streets, screaming and ripped off her scarf. The king is vowing a severe response, and Jordan will increase airstrikes.

Will that be enough for the public, though?

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, this is what people want to see. They say that they've heard these promises from the Jordanian government, from the king here in Jordan, and officials have promised earth-shaking response when it comes to the killing of the Jordanian pilot. And now they say they want to see this and they want to see it fast.

As you mentioned, there is talk that Jordan could increase its airstrikes as part of the coalition mission. And this is something we're getting a sense that many Jordanians want to see. Not everyone in this country supported the government's decision to take part in that U.S.-led coalition against ISIS, but today, we were out on the streets, and we spoke to people here, and there seems -- following the killing of the pilot, there seems to be a change in sentiment, change in opinion here.

More people are rallying around the government and the king, and they see -- they want to see a military response against ISIS.

LEMON: Are they worried, Jomana, about becoming maybe an even bigger target of ISIS because of the airstrikes?

KARADSHEH: Well, from what they're seeing so far, Don, Jordanians believe that they already are a target, especially with this latest brutal killing of Moaz al-Kasasbeh, the Jordanian pilot. This really has shocked the nation and really reminded them of what a target Jordan is to these extremist groups.

Jordan has been hit before in the past as we saw in 2005 by suicide bombings when al Qaeda had taken hold in a neighboring country in Iraq. Now Jordanians have been concerned for awhile as they see so much territory controlled in two neighboring countries and two borders, Syria and Iraq. And they are concerned as we've been seen security being increased over the past year so especially as ISIS was making those advances in Iraq.

And of course there's always the concern, Don, about the jihadi threat from within. Jordan has always struggled with the problem of extremists within its own borders, too.

LEMON: Jomana Karadsheh, thank you very much. I want you to stand by as well.

Joining me now is Fareed Zakaria, he's the host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS."

The breaking news today is U.S. military shifted into northern Iraq. And then we're getting word now that the UAE has suspended now its participation for ISIS strikes.

What's your reaction?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: The UAE had suspended it awhile ago. It was in response, as you pointed out, to this fear that there wasn't enough search and rescue, and I think it appears more of smoke screen than real. The issue here is really where they're shifting assets in a war that is actually going pretty well for the United States and badly for ISIS.

The -- you know, the execution and the brutality of it is masking a reality which is ISIS is not doing particularly well on the ground. It's not doing well in Iraq. It has not done particularly well in Syria, though there it's more mixed. They did lose the battle of Kobani. They're having difficulty governing. And my hypothesis would be, remember this all began because they took two Japanese hostages?

LEMON: Right.

ZAKARIA: Why would you take Japanese hostages? Japan is totally irrelevant to the Middle East. It's because Japan is a rich nation. And they asked for $200 million.

LEMON: And they wanted more.

ZAKARIA: Maybe -- yes. Maybe they're not doing as well on the money- making side as people think. So all in all, ISIS may not be in as great shape as we think.

LEMON: ISIS is showing this video of the pilot being burned to crowds. Why would they -- why would they do that? Watching the execution of this pilot and cheering? Why would they do that? What are they trying to accomplish by that?

ZAKARIA: The key strategy of terrorism is fear. What they're trying to do is scare us.

LEMON: Showing it on big screens?

ZAKARIA: Well then, they're trying to show you that we've got these big crowds. They -- you know, they love us, we have support, we have support for our brutal methods. The whole idea is frankly to make us, you know, scared, overreact, fearful, and in doing this, what they're trying to convince you is that they this big army out there. You know. And again, generally speaking, what's true about terrorism is when it all -- when it's all over you're surprised how small the force was.

But because of almost this kind of illusionist trick, by doing the kind of things they're doing now, they make you think they're much more dangerous than they are. And much bigger than they are.

LEMON: Senator Lindsey Graham today. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: No Arab countries have flown since December 24th in Syria except Jordan. We're flying 80 percent of the combat missions inside of Syria. Jordan had about 600 hours of flight. All of the other Arab coalition members combined have been less 150 hours of combat time in Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So if discussing the desecration of a Muslim doesn't, you know, get Arab countries to act, then what will?

ZAKARIA: It's a good question, and on this issue, I agree with Lindsey Graham. I think that his implications that some of this the Obama administration is to blame. It's not. It's -- this has been a problem for the last 15 years. All these multilateral, so-called multilateral missions, by and large the United States bears disproportionate burden, whether it's Iraq, Afghanistan, you know, Libya, Kosovo, Bosnia, and all of these cases.

And as you say in this case if this doesn't get these countries going, what will? The UAE is a good example, and it is because, as we said, the population is somewhat divided. The government likes to play it safe. All these governments are very cautious because they're not democratic, let's be honest. They have a tenuous legitimacy. And so they don't want to be too bold.

They don't want to lead because they don't -- they don't know whether anyone is following. It's not like they won an election.

LEMON: Right. Right. Right. You know, we've have talking about whether -- how Islam has been perverted by these guys. There -- a French hostage of ISIS told CNN that in the 10 months that he was held captive, he never saw a Quran. So what kind of twisted version of Islam are they practicing?

ZAKARIA: These guys are thugs. They're local thugs who are trying to dominate a region. You know, it's very familiar in a sense whenever you get closer to these organizations, what do you discover? It's really not about religion, it's about power. And these are disaffected young men, some of whom may feel that they've been, you know, cut a raw deal by the government of Baghdad or the government in Damascus, in Syria.

But they then latch on to the ideology of discontent and the ideology of discontent in the Arab world these days is this kind of Islamic radicalism. So they mouth this stuff without knowing very much about it. It's quite possible that these guys burned the body without knowing that this is profoundly un-Islamic because they don't know much about Islam. They know only a few things that they've been taught. But it's not like any of these people are religious scholars or particularly devout even.

LEMON: Then -- if you said that there's no evidence they're particularly devout, why do people then follow them?

ZAKARIA: Because I think what has happened in the Arab world, there's a lot of regimes that are regarded as corrupt or dictatorial, or illegitimate in some way and these guys come around and say, we're the answer. We're going to give you a pure version of -- you know, the rule that's going to be different, it's going to be better. So there is a lot of discontent in the Arab world, and these guys feed off of it.

There's huge unemployment, there's a lot of -- you know, there's a huge youth bulge, 65 percent of the population is under 28 or something like that, and so these young men have nothing to do and they're told by these guys, trust me, Islam is the answer.

When I was growing up in India, they -- you know, Marxist revolution was the answer. Anyone who wanted to be a revolutionist, you were told follow Mao. Well, now in the Arab world, it's follow their version of Islam.

LEMON: I thought maybe my -- what I thought was just too simple when I said, it's something to do. And many times, it's just something for them to do.

ZAKARIA: You know, the more people analyze these groups, the more they find it's young men with nothing to do, a deep sense of frustration, and alienation, and this gives them some sense of great power. It gives them a sense that we're doing something important, meaningful.

LEMON: All right. So do you have to put boots on the ground, the U.S., you think?

ZAKARIA: I think that's what ISIS wants. Why do you think they're doing all these videos? They want to draw us in.

LEMON: A 7-year-old joining ISIS. We're going to see a video of that.

Stand by, Fareed Zakaria. We have much more ahead on the war in ISIS. When we come right back, is all of this brutality part of ISIS propaganda war? Are they winning?

Also, what happened in the last moments before that -- this spectacular crash, look at this. Was the plane doomed from the start?

And what's behind the deadly crash on this commuter train? Our experts are going to weigh in on that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: By releasing video of the barbaric execution of the Jordanian pilot, ISIS has upped the ante on its propaganda war against the coalition of nations seeking to destroy it. Propaganda has long been a tool of war and ISIS uses it effectively in getting the world to pay attention to its message. But there may be a downside to all of this.

Here's CNN's Dan Simon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It may be one of the most gruesome acts of terror caught on tape. Now imagine that video shown on giant screens in Raqqa, Syria. The de factor capital for ISIS.

A little boy seen smiling, even joyful as he describes seeing images of the burning pilot.

"I would have burned him with my own hands," he tells an ISIS interviewer.

Like Hitler and the Nazis, the Soviets and their tanks, or parade of North Korean soldiers, ISIS seems to be master in the art of propaganda. The goal of which is to unify supporters and help recruitment.

(On camera): This video, does it meet the very definition of propaganda?

DOUG BRINKLEY, AUTHOR AND HISTORIAN: This is the most heinous form of wartime propaganda as we have seen in a long time. As the president said medieval in approach.

SIMON (voice-over): But historian Dough Brinkley says there was a danger to unleashing this exceptionally brutal propaganda, beheadings and now a burning, that ISIS may not understand. And it can serve as a unifying force for ISIS enemies.

BRINKLEY: I don't think ISIL's propaganda campaign has really been effective in the long run, the whole world hates them, and they're going to get destroyed in the end. But on a short-term basis when you're looking for the bodies, they're offering excitement for young people. It looks like almost a video game or something, a Darth Vader kind of wear the black mask and join a gang.

SIMON: What's striking about some of their videos is the sophistication and slick Hollywood effects. A far contrast from the low definition Osama bin Laden videos. ISIS may hate the West but it is using Western tool like YouTube and Twitter to spread its venom.

BRINKLEY: What's unique is the modern technology. In fact you can get it on your iPhone a snuff film made via courtesy of ISIS. This is different. But the idea of just using butchery to kind of reinforce the morale of your troops and put fear into the enemy is as old as time. You know, we used to do posters of, you know, Uncle Sam wants you as a form of propaganda, to recruit people.

But Uncle Sam pointing a finger at somebody with a beard is not putting a human being in a cage and lighting them up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: The question now some have is what could ISIS possibly do next? Experts say as long as their video and acts of barbarism stir passion like what we saw on the streets of Syria, they have little incentive to stop -- Don.

LEMON: Dan Simon, thank you very much.

Joining me now is Bob Baer, CNN intelligence and security analyst and former CIA operative, and Mike Rogers, CNN national security commentator and former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Hello, gentlemen.

So the question is, Mike, what will ISIS do next? Isn't that exactly what they want us to be? Is that the thinking right now?

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Well, they are doing this for a couple of reasons. One, they're using violence to control their population. They're not really structured to govern very well, Don, and so the way that they control villages and outlying areas is by sheer violence. That's why they went through these areas and cut off hands, and summarily executed people and had beheading.

So this target audience is two places. One, internal. And two, for the rest of the world to show that they are extremely violent, will do anything they need to do, and they're hoping that fear portion gets concessions for them.

LEMON: We hear so much from the president about destroying and degrading, Mike. We know now that the U.S. and allies have dropped more than 2,000 bombs on ISIS.

Has their momentum been halted? And if you look at it in Iraq, 1242, in Syria, 1,022, about 2264 strikes on Iraq -- on ISIS. Are they being degraded?

ROGERS: Well, I always worry when the White House tries to temper these things in sheer numbers that, you know, 1,000 bombs being dropped equals the fact that we're really doing something. The proof is not just if they've stopped their momentum, and if you listen to that language, what that tells me is we're not winning this thing.

And so that is a recruiting tool for ISIS. So yes, they've dropped a lot of ordinance over the last six months in different places. We don't really know how effective they've been but the real measure of that is do they still have command and control? Do they still have logistical ability to operate in Syria and Iraq? And unfortunately the answer is yes and yes. So they're using these videos.

It's a huge recruiting tool. And remember, we see this great act of barbarism that we just -- and it takes your breath away, but the folks who are aligned with their philosophy say, wow, they're beating these great Western powers, they're beating the -- the kingdoms of Saudi Arabia and UAE, and Jordan. That's where I want to be. I want to be a part of that. That's what's so concerning about this.

LEMON: Yes. Let's talk more now about propaganda because that small boy that we saw in Dan Simon's story, saying that he wanted to burn the pilot after watching the video.

Is that common? Bob?

ROGERS: Well -- again. Bob?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, I -- yes, it's very common. I think what we're, Don, we've got to pay attention to is these people are believers. They are willing to give up their lives in this war. And they look at the world as us and them. And these little children you see, that are -- you know, are goading -- you know, going along with this are also agreeing to become suicide bombers.

And I think in fact that the Islamic State wouldn't mind some sort of offensive this summer led by the West, and they can say, look, we told you the West is out to destroy us. So I agree with Mike, this is an enemy that's going to be around for a long time. It's a virus that's going to be very difficult to kill, because it's going to pop up in different parts of the world. And they are almost begging for the United States to put ground troops so that they can have a real enemy that they can fight and get more recruits.

LEMON: And Bob, they have used and made extraordinary use of technology with the cameras, some editing gear, and the Internet. They're terrorizing the world. So why can't -- why can't we shut them down?

BAER: You can't shut them down because they are sophisticated, they're using the mobile Wi-Fi, they'll stop in the desert. Take a shot at a satellite, upload their images. And that's the way they communicate. And, you know, they'll be up for 40 minutes, and they have found holes in the National Security Agency, in the Cyber Command's defenses. And they understand this. And they've reading Snowden.

You know, it's just a matter these people are very sophisticated. They know what they're doing, and we simply can't close them down in a cyber warfare.

LEMON: You know, you said something last night that resonated to a lot of people where you talked about the psychology of ISIS. You said basically that these guys were psychotic.

What can you tell us about the mind of an ISIS fighter?

BAER: Well, they are looking at this as a clash of civilizations. I spent a lot of time in Israeli prisons, talking to suicide bombers, and they look at it we have to kill Israeli children and women because they will grow up to produce more soldiers, and we have to exterminate them all. It's very close to fascism. And they simply don't care. And these losses we're inflicting on -- I mean, we are from the air, but at the end of the day, they look at it, they are producing martyrs, and they're simply going to recruit more.

So it's much more than just simple propaganda. They are actually convincing people it is worth dying in this fight, and this is why it's going to be so difficult to destroy this movement. LEMON: The question is, Mike, though, are they as powerful as many

people think they are? How many men does ISIS actually got and how much territory do they really control?

ROGERS: Well, they still think that territory is about the size of Indiana, maybe a little less now. But remember, they are still pretty robust fighting around Mosul. That hasn't been done. Kobani is not -- Kobani isn't Syria, Mosul and Iraq. Neither one of those have been completely routed out so yes, they've stopped their advance. And this is very important language to listen when the president says it or some of his folks providing the messaging for the president.

They have stopped the advance of ISIL to other -- to greater territory, but they have not been able to disrupt their logistical operations and their ability to control large swathes of territory. That, again, is very concerning. Now they have had an impact, they've hit a lot of the mobile production units that make gasoline for their -- for their own troops and for sale on the open market.

That's happened. That's a good impact. But you have to remember, our intelligence on the ground inside of these areas is not very good. It's just not great. We don't have good eyes on their ability so when you're talking about 1,000 bombs, that's great if you only hit, you know, three things out of 1,000 drops, that's not a very successful event. That's why we should be very careful not to judge this in how many bombs we drop.

LEMON: Gentlemen, I have to go. Thank you very much to both of you.

Up next, a cockpit radio's mayday before this plane clips a bridge and crashes. Amazingly some people on board made it out alive.

Our aviation experts are here to explain what might have happened to this plane.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Let's take a look at this. This is amazing dash cam video, shows a plane -- there it is, look at it. Clipping a highway, could a taxi cab -- as a matter of fact, the highway bridge in Taiwan and crashed right into a river below. Killing at least 31 people -- there it is again, incredibly though, some of those on board survived and got out of the wreckage. Meantime, the officials are investigating the collision of a commuter train and a SUV north of New York City that killed six people. So there is a lot to talk about with Mary Schiavo, she's a former inspector general of the Department of transportation, now in aviation -- now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents which includes aviation. And David Soucie as a CNN safety analyst and the author of Malaysia Airlines flight 370. Good evening to both of you. David, you investigated plane crashes for the FAA, what can you tell, just by looking at this incredible dash cam video in Taiwan?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well what I see is that the left engine is obviously not producing power. The blades are not pulling forward like they would under power, there actually bending backward. Then also the aircraft, it appears to me that the -- propeller is not fully feathered, what that means is that, when the engine quits, it's suppose to auto-feather where the blade is parallel with the line of flight so that it doesn't resist the air flow. But if it doesn't do that, you basically got a 12-foot diameter block that stops any air from going through it, and it can stall that left wing, and that appears to me that, that's what happened there.

LEMON: It's very quick though, but I want you to listen, the pilot calls out mayday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayday, mayday, engine flameout.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Mayday, mayday, engine flameout. So David, what can the

investigators learn from this mayday call?

SOUCIE: Well, the mayday call -- it depends on exactly when it came, but it's interesting in the video that when you first see that video here, plane wings are level, it's still flying straight, which would tell you that, at that point he had power in -- with at least one engine, and then nothing has restricted that left side of the engine. So, when that mayday calls, it appears to me that he knew that he had an engine out, and at that point, he may have actually made the decision to turn left. When I've flown out of Taipei doing surveillance in the cockpit before, and flying out, there you have to kind of follow the river down, if you don't, you'll going to go right over the apartments. So it appears to me from his track that's what exactly he was doing, and then when he lost that engine, he want to make sure that he didn't take -- making it anymore fatalities and he may have just intentionally gone to the left if it wasn't from what I said before, which is that feathering issue.

LEMON: I want you -- before I get to Mary though, I want you to -- show us this animation that you brought in, which shows the plane taking off with low speed, low altitude, and the engine is out. Can you explain to us what is happening in this example that you brought in?

SOUCIE: Yeah, what we have here is, this is from previous accident, from an in the air (ph) accidents. But what this tells you is when this aircraft is taking off, this is a critical point of the flight, when you lose powers in that engine, you're low altitude, low air speed and then you risk the stall, so the aircraft starts to stall, you really lose control. If one wing or the other goes out first, then you can see how almost identically this animation which was done years ago from the previous accident, this is from the ATSB, from Australia. And this is almost exactly identical of how you see that other aircraft crashed, so and this one was caused from low altitude, low air speed and the lost of the left engine.

LEMON: Oh my goodness. It's just unbelievable video there. Let's go from planes, now the trains. The Metro-North train collision yesterday, the deadliest crash in the train line's history, and this is the second busiest commuter row which we tell you -- commuter line, as I should say in the country. The NTSB has officially taking control of the scenes. So Mary, many people around the country and world commute by train and -- they go to work every day and some just travel by train. How likely is something like this to happen?

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: Well actually, it's very rare. There are about 270 deaths per year in the United States from rail accidents. But when you think about it, there are -- I think it's 212,000 highway rail crossings, and in almost every case where there is a death or accident at a rail crossing, it is where someone has entered or crossed the track, and usually the accidents are close to people's homes, so there is an explanation for what happened and the federal government has managed to reduce over two decades the deaths by about two-thirds. But it's still is usually a case of human error and somebody entering the track and in many cases trespassing on the track.

LEMON: Yeah. I have a lot of questions for you, so if we can go through this quickly, what are these people likely die, from smoke inhalation or impact, Mary?

SCHIAVO: I think in this case, he died from smoke inhalation, and impact. Usually, like an -- there was an accident in the subway a few weeks before that was smoke inhalation...

LEMON: Right.

SCHIAVO: But here, it was both.

LEMON: The question that I want to know and many people, on planes, you get this mandatory safety instructions about seatbelts, escape procedures, even titration devices, emergency procedures. Why don't they do that on trains?

SCHIAVO: That's a very good question, because there is no reason not to do it on trains, and in some cases the windows on trains can be harder and more difficult to open, they're not more as uniform as they are on planes. And I think that's the one of the things that the NTSB will be recommending after this -- after this crash.

LEMON: The majority, the people who died are in this crash were in the front car, is there -- a particular hazard or danger up front?

SCHIAVO: Well actually, there is. On train crashes, often they occur with the engine hitting something on the track, that's the most typical way it occurs. And the engine in the first couple of cars, of course, they act as the crash zone. And so often in those cars that take the brunt of it, so the place where you less likely to be injured is in the middle of the train or towards the back, not the very last car, the middle towards the back is the safer.

LEMON: I want to ask both of you more questions about survival in the next hour, so stick around. Thanks to both of you. And their emotional testimony in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial. The mother and girlfriend of murder victim Odin Lloyd takes the witness stand.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. An emotional day in the murder trial of former NFL star Aaron Hernandez, both the victim's girlfriend and his mother took the stand. But the jury never saw what may have been the most emotional moment. CNN's Susan Candiotti has more now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Remembering a painful

day. Shaneah Jenkins watching herself on security camera video, visiting the home of New England Patriot tight end Aaron Hernandez. Jenkins is hugging Hernandez's fiancee, older sister Shayanna. After learning boyfriend Odin Lloyd has been shot dead less than a mile away from the Hernandez home. Shaneah testifies Hernandez is also in the house that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he seem very shaken up?

SHANEAH JENKINS, ODIN LLYOD'S GIRLFRIEND: He seemed stressed.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: Nine days later, Hernandez is arrested for Lloyd's murder.

The murder weapon is still missing. Prosecutors show jurors home surveillance photos of Hernandez's fiancee holding something in her hands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This likes a man (ph) she is -- she's holding. Do

you know what that is?

JENKINS: The black trash bag?

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: Authorities suspect Hernandez's fiancee sitting behind him

in court, uses the trash bag to hide the missing murder weapon inside a box and throwing it away after getting a coded message from Hernandez. His defense team questions Jenkins on how much time her boyfriend Lloyd spent with Hernandez. Jenkins telling jurors it was mainly during visits with her older sister, Hernandez once treating them to a sky box for a Patriot's pre-season home game. Lloyd, on the far right of this group shot with Hernandez and his brother, on their way to a night club, a powerful moment coming when prosecutors asked Odin Lloyd's mother to identify a photo of her dead son at a hearing without the jury present.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does that depict your son's body?

URSULA WARD, ODIN LLOYD'S MOTHER: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the part of the body that shown is just his head. Is that true?

WARD: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: The judge warning Lloyd's mother to control her emotions on

the stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUDGE SUSAN GARSH, HERNANDEZ TRIAL JUDGE: It's very important that you

manage during this time you are testifying, to retain control of your emotions, and not to cry while you are looking at any photo that may be shown to you. Do you understand that?

WARD: Yes, ma'am.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: When the jury is finally brought in again, she keeps her

emotions in check. The jury not allowed to see the autopsy photos, until they deliberate. With Hernandez watching intently, Ward said she knew many of her son's friends, but not Hernandez.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had you ever met him before?

WARD: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had he ever come to your home?

WARD: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: But she clearly remembers seeing her son on Father's Day

2013.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WARD: I just saw his beautiful pink gum smiling coming across the

street towards me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: It was the last time she'd see him alive, hours before he

was shot to death.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CANDIOTTI: And on Friday the jury will be taking on a bus tour -- a

guided bus tour. First they will go to Odin Lloyd's home where he lived with his mother in Boston. And then they'll take a 45-minute drive to crime scene which is close to Aaron Hernandez's home. Prosecutors will also show them cell phone towers where they alleged that they picked up a ping from Hernandez's cell phone that puts him at the crime scene. But finally, Don. Finally, the defense will also give the jury a guided tour of Aaron Hernandez's home to show them the security system. But of course, they'll also get a look at his trophy case. Don?

LEMON: Susan, and it's opening the defense asked again and again why would Aaron Hernandez kill his girlfriend, someone he spent so much time with his friend -- excuse me, so much time with. The reason I said girlfriend is because the defense team got a chance to cross- examined Odin Lloyd's girlfriend, Shaneah Jenkins. Were they effective in the cross-examination?

CANDIOTTI: Well you Don, it is unclear. But I will tell you this. She was very cool and collected on the stand. She testified that Odin Lloyd, her boyfriend, and Aaron Hernandez did hang out together and that they smoked a lot of pot. But she said that they got together mostly because of her when she was visiting her sister. And so she said, it's important to remember that -- that they did hang out, however she acknowledges there was one time, one very important time that she didn't know about them hanging out, and that is when Hernandez and Lloyd partied at a nightclub and later on at an apartment that Hernandez kept. And that, prosecutors say that Hernandez got angry at Odin Lloyd and it turns out, Don, that two nights later, that's when Odin Lloyd was gunned down.

LEMON: Susan Candiotti, thank you for your report. When we come right back, our expert team of judges, weigh in on what happened in the courtroom today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The judge in the Aaron Hernandez murder case warned the victim's mother today to control her emotions on the stand. So I want to know what our judges think about all this. Joining me now is Judge Larry Seidlin who presided over the Anna Nicole Smith trial, and Judge Glenda Hatchett, host of the Judge Hatchett show and a consultant to the NBA and the NFL -- it's quite dramatic animation there, we love it. OK. So listen, the victim, Odin Lloyd's mother took the stand today and right after she identify the photo of her son's body, the judge said this to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GARSH: It's very important that you manage during this time you are

testifying, to retain control of your emotions, and not to cry while you are looking at any photo that may be shown to you. Do you understand that?

WARD: Yes, ma'am.

GARSH: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Judge Hatchett, it's a grieving mother, have you ever?

JUDGE GLENDA HATCHETT, CONSULTANT TO THE NBA AND NFL: I have never. I can see her saying, please try to manage your emotions. And I understand that she doesn't want the jury affect and Don, I have never ever seen that. And I have had a lot of family members crying in my courtroom, and you just cannot say that to a grieving mother. I just don't know how you expect that. And the question I have Don, is what she have done, had she started crying. I mean, she's not going to, put her in jail, she's not going to...

LEMON: Contempt. Find her contempt during --

HATCHETT: Put a fine on her. And she's not going to -- I mean, she can't -- I mean, I can't imagine that you could do anything --

LEMON: Judge Seidlin, you famously teared up when you came down with the Anna Nicole Smith decision. And we already saw Odin Lloyd's mother crying in court before. Emotions do play a role in court particularly, in a jury trial.

LARRY SEIDLIN, JUDGE WHO PRESIDED OVER THE ANNA NICOLE SMITH TRIAL: Absolutely. And this judge -- was it very harsh admonishment that the judge gave the mother. And the trial is supposed to be the search for the truth. Supposed to be a search for the facts, and you can't tell an individual how they should react to certain questions and certain bits of evidence. It's just bad form, and I think -- I think it causes issues for the jury. Besides that fact, the defendant, a good lawyer who represented the defendant is going to tell the defendant, put your family members on the front row, and let them be crying when certain evidence comes out to try to prejudice that jury...

(CROSSTALK)

SEIDLIN: And try to have an effect on the jury.

LEMON: Was the judge trying to say, listen, maybe you're putting on and you maybe swing the jury by -- is that what possibly was going on here?

HATCHETT: Well, you know --

SEIDLIN: But this --

HATCHETT: Well, the mother went out twice --

LEMON: Sorry, judge.

HATCHETT: I'm sorry. Mother went out twice...

(CROSSTALK)

HATCHETT: And -- when the times when these photos were shown, and I think that the judge was anticipating that she might be very emotional on the stand today. But I think she took it too far, Don.

LEMON: Yeah.

HATCHETT: I really do. And there -- I mean, I do know that there are people who are very theatrical, but you have a grieving mother, and it seems almost unnatural for her not to show some emotion on the stand...

LEMON: Right. OK.

HATCHETT: When she sees pictures of her son.

LEMON: This is -- I want to talk about this. This is so odd, Odin Lloyd's girlfriend and Hernandez's fiancee, they're sisters and they were both in court today.

HATCHETT: Right.

LEMON: We saw a video in the court of the two sisters hugging the day that after Odin Lloyd had been killed. Now they're sitting on an opposite sides. HATCHETT: Right.

LEMON: What do you make of this? First to Judge Hatchett.

HATCHETT: Yeah, I think it that point, they were -- you know, consoling each other at time that was very difficult but now, you know, Hernandez's fiancee is going to stand with him, and the victim's girlfriend is going to stand with the mother and that family, and I think this is a house divided. And I think there's going to be a lot of pain, and a lot of tension in this family for years to come...

LEMON: Judge Seidlin...

HATCHETT: Regardless of the outcome.

LEMON: Judge Seidlin, have you seen anything like this, two family members on opposite sides in your courtroom?

SEIDLIN: Yes, you have it in probate court with a fighting over money. You have it in a family court where the husband and wife are ripping each other apart and destroying the children. You see it every day in that courthouse.

HATCHETT: Yeah...

SEIDLIN: Who else are you going to fight with, but people like...

HATCHETT: I think in murder trials, too.

SEIDLIN: Yes. Who else are you going to fight with, but people that you know, people that you are related to. That's who you are going to fight with.

LEMON: Yeah.

SEIDLIN: That's why most crimes, the victim and the suspect, there's a relationship. That's how they, the police --

LEMON: They know each other. They know each other.

SEIDLIN: Yes.

LEMON: So Judge Seidlin...

SEIDLIN: Yes.

LEMON: Looking ahead to Friday, the jurors may be taking this field trip to tour the crime scene in Aaron Hernandez's home. Is this typical -- I remember seeing it doing in the O.J. trial, they put them all on a bus and they take them to the scene. How typical is this Judge Seidlin?

SEIDLIN: It's -- it's important to do that, it's called -- what I would term, on-site inspection, it's not a trip to Disneyworld. They try to re-enact what took place, a picture is worth a million words, and it's --it's very helpful, it's very important. I am worried though that this jury has been polluted. That you have 18 jurors, and they were allowed to go home, they're allowed to watch TV, they're allowed to listen to radio, talk to their friends and family. Are you telling me that all 18 members are so honorable...

LEMON: Yeah.

SEIDLIN: That they happened -- been polluted by someone outside?

LEMON: And Judge --

SEIDLIN: I think that this judge should stand up to the court administrator who says, we don't have the money to sequester the jury. And I think Judge Hatchett would agree with me.

LEMON: And Judge Hatchett, one of the jurors got kicked off yesterday, because she's a bigger fan and she let on to be.

HATCHETT: Right. And that she had made some comments, that she said that weapon was never recovered...

LEMON: Yeah.

HATCHETT: And that -- you know, she didn't think that this could be won by the prosecution. I mean, that was a real blow to the defense. They lost somebody, argue (ph) believe that it was going to be an ally to them. But the Judge's point Don, if the debate that goes on when you have cheating (ph)...

LEMON: I've -- I've got to run.

HATCHETT: Oh, OK.

LEMON: OK. That was quick. Usually it takes people a long time. Thank you Judge Hatchett. Thank you Judge Seidlin.

HATCEHTT: I know how this works.

LEMON: Yes, I appreciate both of you. Yes you do. Coming up, another high profile trial, the life and death of a real life American sniper, jury selection begins tomorrow. And the trial demand accused of killing Chris Kyle, we're going to take a look at the case against him, coming up.