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Don Lemon Tonight
NBC Suspends Brian Williams for Six Months; Jon Stewart to Leave "Daily Show" This Year
Aired February 10, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, and I'm Don Lemon.
We're going to begin with breaking news. A double shake-up in the nightly news landscape, one in real news and one in fake news, you be the judge of which is which.
NBC's Brian Williams suspended for six months without pay and Jon Stewart leaving "The Daily Show." NBC says that Williams' misrepresentation of events that occurred while he was covering the Iraq war was wrong and completely inappropriate.
What does that mean for the future of the nightly newscast? And the people watching? Tonight we're going to talk to people who know Brian Williams, who worked with him and news veterans as well?
Our breaking news tonight again, Brian Williams suspended for six months without pay. NBC taking action following revelations that Williams exaggerated stories from an Iraq mission back in 2003. The network calling that wrong and completely inappropriate for someone in Brian's position.
And joining now is Brian Stelter, CNN's senior media correspondent, Dan Abrams, the founder of Mediaite, Sharon Waxman, editor-in-chief of "The Wrap," Frank Sesno, former CNN Washington bureau chief, now the director of the -- director of the School and Media and Public Relations at George Washington University.
But I'm going to begin with Brian Stelter.
Brian, let's talk about this suspension. Suspended for six months without pay. How did we get here?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Gosh, it's even hard to try to explain it. This has been an unprecedented situation. I've never seen anything like it in television news. And they really started six days ago with Brian Williams' apology on air for misremembering he said this Iraq war mission in 2003, said an RPG struck his helicopter. That was pretty clearly untrue. So last Wednesday he apologized on air for saying that. But the apology was not enough. It was pretty obviously inadequate because it raised more questions
than answers, and it started a real crisis inside NBC News. The network believes they can calm the storm tonight by suspending him, but the morale is so low at this news division. This is the worst period for NBC News in at least 20 years. I heard from one longtime staffer who says I feel like I just witnessed a sudden death.
LEMON: Let's talk about the response from the higher ups, from people who made this decision. This is from CEO, Steve Burke, he had this to say.
"This has been a painful period for all concerned and we appreciate your patience while we gather the available facts. By his actions, Brian has jeopardized the trust millions of Americans placed in NBC News. His actions are inexcusable and this suspension is severe and appropriate. Brian's life's work is delivering the news. I know Brian loves his country, NBC News and his colleagues. He deserves a second chance and we are rooting for him. Brian has shared his deep remorse with me, and he is committed to winning back everyone's trust."
Do you think he can win back everyone's trust?
STELTER: I think the key details at the end there, he is claiming that Williams will be given a second chance, but nobody else I've talked to at NBC believes it's a sure thing, that he will be back. You know, we're talking about August, six months from now. That's a long time, that's a lot of news cycles from now.
And how is he going to regain people's trust when he's off the air. This is a very difficult position for him to be in, and I know people throughout the TV news world feel a lot of sympathy for him right now, although, of course, there's a lot of scrutiny about his record.
LEMON: OK. Stand by, so I want to bring in Dan Abrams.
Dan, you're champing at the bit. Why?
DAN ABRAMS, FOUNDER, MEDIAITE: No, because I didn't read that statement to be saying they're going to be give him a second chance at NBC. He's rooting for him. Great. They're rooting for him. They hope he gets a second chance. But I'm not reading that to say necessarily with NBC. Now that doesn't mean it won't happen. But that is an incredibly strong statement.
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: Coming from them, because I think when you read between the lines. That's what you have to do in a statement like this. It becomes clear they think this extends beyond just his statements about what happened in Iraq.
LEMON: Well, they actually do say that. They said -- that he made on the air and about other things that are --
ABRAMS: In other venues they said. LEMON: In other venues, right.
ABRAMS: But they didn't identify what the other venues were.
LEMON: That's right.
ABRAMS: And it is clear they are worried about other stuff coming out.
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: And this is their way of punting.
LEMON: Wait, we've known each other for a long time, I think 2001 and 2002, and we shared an office at 30 Rock.
ABRAMS: We did. We did.
LEMON: When you sat down here, I said what a crazy business we work in, and you said, save it for the air.
ABRAMS: Well, Don, I'm just -- because my reaction is, are you kidding me? Brian Williams just got suspended for six months from NBC News?
LEMON: Right.
ABRAMS: I mean, for those of us who've been there, Brian Williams is not just the on-air leader of NBC News, Brian Williams is the leader.
LEMON: Managing editor.
ABRAMS: Of NBC News.
LEMON: Right.
ABRAMS: Brian makes the calls behind the scenes about things that are happening that no one knows. Brian Williams is deciding.
LEMON: You also know, as well, if you are a young correspondent or a young contributor starting out, he also takes you under his wing.
ABRAMS: Look, I wrote a piece on Mediaite basically saying that, you know, off with his head, the obsession to bring down Brian Williams. And said that I thought that he should at least a cushion, right, to basically say, all his other work should matter, but that if there was some other instance that they're going to be able to demonstrate where he didn't tell the truth, they can't keep him.
And the -- what I read from this statement is they don't trust that the other statements he's made about a lot of different things are necessarily true.
LEMON: Yes. You mentioned Mediaite, I want to mention this poll because it -- you received over 13,000 responses on your Web site. The overwhelming response is that Brian should be fired. Do you think he should have been fired instead of --
ABRAMS: No. No. Look, I think this is -- this is the right call. Why? It allows them to delay the decision.
LEMON: But they're clearly temporizing here, they're buying time, because basically this is a more -- a better explained decision, and it's sort of the same decision than they made last week.
ABRAMS: Look, and they get a wonderful guy like Lester Holt, right?
LEMON: Right.
ABRAMS: Everyone loves Lester Holt at NBC.
LEMON: Lester -- right.
ABRAMS: If you don't love Lester Holt, there's something wrong with you.
LEMON: You're not human, right.
ABRAMS: Yes. Yes. So -- so everyone loves Lester Holt, right? So you put Lester Holt in the position, a solid newsman, up there, and you say we're putting him there for six months. It allows NBC to not make an announcement right now about what they're going to do long term.
LEMON: Look at the ratings.
ABRAMS: Right.
LEMON: And see if they hold up.
ABRAMS: It allows them to not fire Brian Williams.
LEMON: Right.
ABRAMS: And make a decision about it later and see we're all these things, what happens here. But I'll bet you, and I talked to you about this before. I'll bet you Brian was part of this decision. I'll bet you that it wasn't the sort of thing where they came to him and they said, OK, Brian, please come in, here's the decision, you have been suspended for six months.
My guess is that Brian was part of this because this is, in my view, a pretty good outcome for Brian, considering where we are today with the public trust.
LEMON: And -- and Brian Stelter, you -- that goes along maybe with what you have reported earlier here on CNN, that there was a meeting at 30 Rock today, and Brian left that meeting, am I correct, and he seemed to be in good spirits?
STELTER: Actually the meeting was at Steve Burke's house, the CEO of NBC Universal. LEMON: OK.
STELTER: He has this, you know, big penthouse apartment here on Central Park West. They met together at the apartment, then they drove together to 30 Rock for the rest of the day. So it does seem like Williams is involved here. You know, no one at NBC is saying this was voluntary, but it does makes sense that he was part of the decision-making process.
What happens tomorrow, though, is anybody's guess. I mean, think about what happened tonight. Jon Stewart's chair opened up on "The Daily Show." I mean, this is a remarkable turn of events over at Comedy Central as well. And I'm not the only one who's wondering if Brian Williams has not been looking over there, maybe at some other career choice.
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: And look --
LEMON: And it's possible, but, you know, we have non-compete, you have to stay off the air for a certain amount of time. In this situation, I don't know.
ABRAMS: That would be a (INAUDIBLE). New reports tonight that Brian Williams is actually trying to get the "Tonight Show" gig. For a while. So there were a couple of reports about that tonight which makes you think -- I'm not saying he's going to be moving over to Comedy Central but --
LEMON: I want to talk about -- we're going to have Douglas Brinkley on, who wrote a very -- a very eloquent article and he talks about the difference between being a newsman and a showman. He was a newsman who is a showman but then he would go on this late-night talk shows, and he would come a showman.
ABRAMS: You know what, that is OK.
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: It's OK. You know, I know everyone wants to -- now all the capital J, journalists, we're all going after Brian Williams.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Are those days -- are those days over?
ABRAMS: Those days are over. You know what --
LEMON: I want -- listen.
ABRAMS: It's a good thing for him to do things like that, to appeal to a larger audience. That's not the reason this is happening.
LEMON: Let's go back then. Let's talk about what happened that brought us here. 2013 -- at least one of the events. 2013 appearance on "Letterman" when he talks about being hit by enemy fire. This is -- in 2013 when he was reporting on Iraq war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Two of the four helicopters were hit by ground fire, including the one I was in.
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": No kidding?
WILLIAMS: RPG and AK-47.
LETTERMAN: What altitude where you hit at?
WILLIAMS: We were only 100 feet doing 104 forward knots because we had this massive piece of bridge beneath us on slings.
LETTERMAN: What happens the minute everybody realizes you've been hit?
WILLIAMS: We figure out how to land safely, and we did, and we landed very quickly and hard and we put down, and we were stuck, four birds in the middle of the desert, and we were north out ahead of the other Americans.
LETTERMAN: Oh, my.
WILLIAMS: And --
LETTERMAN: So, as a guy, as a journalist, what do you think? This is a great position to be in or holy crap, I've got to get out of here?
WILLIAMS: I -- more toward the holy crap.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ABRAMS: It's hard to listen to.
LEMON: I have the sense, you look pained.
ABRAMS: No. You can read it on paper and see the words.
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: And listening to him say it?
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: And now knowing that it's not remotely true. Again, that doesn't mean he's lying.
LEMON: Yes.
ABRAMS: But it means, as I watch it, I'm thinking, ugh, ugh.
LEMON: Stand by, Dan Abram, because I think everyone is. Because -- rarely do you meet a person who doesn't like Brian Williams.
ABRAMS: Yes.
LEMON: I want to bring in now Sharon Waxman and Frank Sesno.
What's your reaction, Frank, to the suspension?
FRANK SESNO, DIRECTOR OF MEDIA AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I don't think it makes any sense. I think that you -- in a situation like this if you've done make any sense. If you've done something that's egregious enough from the corporate and journalistic point of view, that you're going to be suspended for six months without pay, what is that doing?
By the way, I've spoken to somebody very familiar with the thinking inside NBC News, and the feeling there is, among a lot of people, they're livid about this, too, because what it means is that you twist in the wind for the next six months. It doesn't make a clean break of it. It says to the audience that this guy has done something so egregious that he should be suspended for this period of time without pay.
This isn't like an NFL quarterback who's done something bad and is fined and goes away and then comes back and plays again after paying his penance for a few months. The business is trust and credibility. So I think it sends a very confusing signal. And one of the reasons, as Brian was talking about, that that morale is as low within NBC News right now and confusing the public, NBC News -- the ratings dropped on Friday already, is that you've got these very mixed signals, and the danger that these mixed signals and second and third and fourth shoes that are going to drop could continue for the next several months.
LEMON: All right. What's your -- what's your reaction, Sharon?
SHARON WAXMAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE WRAP: I don't know that he's necessarily going to be suspended for six months, I mean, Frank makes a really good point. But honestly what it looks like is NBC wants some time to try to the figure out what else Brian Williams might have done.
If Brian Williams had just, as I initially thought, told the tall-tale on David Letterman, I think it would have been absurd for him to be suspended over that. I mean, if he just -- people do misremember, and people aren't perfect. If Brian Williams started to buy his own mythology a little bit on a talk show that's one thing, the real question is, what did he say that might not have been accurate on his news show when he's working as a journalist, that's the concern. And I think that's the part that we are still, waiting. There's another shoe to drop in that scenario.
LEMON: Quickly, Dan.
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: There -- yes. ABRAMS: Too much is inside the media people, right? The rest of the
public is saying, wait a sec, what about the puppy that he supposedly rescued, that he wrote about in "USA Today"?
LEMON: Yes. Yes.
ABRAMS: What about the robbery that he supposedly endured in the 1970s? And what about Katrina? The bottom line is, we can -- we can try to compartmentalize and say, it's the only things that he said on the NBC "Nightly News."
LEMON: OK.
ABRAMS: But (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: I want to ask you this started -- I'm going to ask everyone.
Frank, in six months, is Brian Williams in the anchor chair again?
(LAUGHTER)
SESNO: I wouldn't put money on it.
LEMON: Sharon?
WAXMAN: I don't think so.
LEMON: Brian Stelter?
STELTER: Don't think so. I think these things have a way of becoming permanent, and Lester Holt is an excellent fill-in.
LEMON: Do you think that they are -- as Dan has been saying and as many people think, they are temporizing here, buying time to see, number one, how the ratings hold up with Lester Holt, and what happens in the interim, because there was also talk that Savannah Guthrie of the "Today" show might be, you know, a replacement or that Matt Lauer might be a replacement or that Willie Geist might be a replacement, Brian?
STELTER: One of the bosses over at one of NBC's rivals said, I mean, he think they're just buying more time for negotiations with Brian Williams. Where those negotiations lead, you know, we won't know at this moment, but we've got to say, Williams plans on being back, and stranger things have happened in television.
This is a medium that, you know, that really lives on this kind of -- you know, strange moments and changes, right?
LEMON: We are armchair quarterbacking here, of course, but what do you think, Frank -- Sharon, what do you think NBC should have done? What -- what had been the right move, do you think?
WAXMAN: I think I would have taken him off the air for the time that the investigation last, and let the facts speak. I mean, that's really what it ought to hang on. And -- when you have these moments, these media firestorms, I'm so struck by it every time, is that the world explodes, it's like, oh, my god, he murdered somebody.
That was actually the bit that Jon Stewart did last night when he was kind of sending up how the media is do indignant over Brian Williams' sin when, you know, he was comparing that to the lies that the government told before we went to war with Iraq and we went to war. So the proportionality, all lost in the moment of the media firestorm.
STELTER: Always.
WAXMAN: So I -- I would have thought that it would have been smart for NBC to take him off the air while they conducted a calm and measured investigation, and then came back to us and said, here's what we think is appropriate.
LEMON: I've got -- I've got to run, Dan, you want --
ABRAMS: (INAUDIBLE) questions.
LEMON: Yes. Dan Abrams, thank you very much. I appreciate you coming on.
ABRAMS: Good to see you, Don. As always.
LEMON: Thank you so much.
ABRAMS: We got to share an office sometimes.
LEMON: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Yes. One of us are happy to go to a different network.
Make sure you stay with me, everybody. My entire panel. Dan is going to leave. He's got other stuff to do. We've got a lot more to come on this story.
As Brian Williams starts his six-month suspension, another shake-up that we're going to talk about. The end of an era in fake news as Jon Stewart prepares to step down from "The Daily Show."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news tonight. NBC News suspends Brian Williams for six months without pay. NBC says Williams misrepresented events which occurred while he was covering the Iraq war in 2003.
So back with me now is Brian Stelter, Sharon Waxman and Frank Sesno. And we're also joined by Deborah Norville, the anchor of "Inside Edition." She's on the phone.
Frank, I understand you have some new information for us.
SESNO: Yes, well, of course we all have friends in the business and so you touch base with them, and I'm told by a very good source inside NBC News that this was a process of buying time for the network and for Comcast, for the company that owns them. But that no one in the inner circle expects him to be back. That this is a fig leaf of sorts for Brian Williams himself,
I'm also told by others that the second and third and fourth shoes that they thought would drop, a lot of them spring from conversations that they themselves have had with Brian Williams in the past. Not on the air, but it contributes to a very damaging profile of him.
One person told me, for example, that he had claimed that he never went to college, and then she found out later, this person found out later that he did or that this whole business with puppies and all the rest. So there are a whole bunch of things happening here, and the real story here is just how damaging this is for NBC News.
LEMON: It's -- it's such a -- I mean, the guy --
STELTER: Whole new level.
LEMON: Last week the guy was on top of the world, right? I mean, and it's so sad to see, and what's awful, too, is when you see the reaction from social media and people actually rooting for his demise, it's just -- it's really awful all of the way around. It's terrible.
STELTER: On one level, extremely sad.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: Brian Williams is someone that I've looked up for years. My mom would -- reminded me this morning about that. He's someone I've respected for decades. And the whole industry has. He is a legend and in some ways a hero of television news. I don't want to -- run that word too much. But he's a heroic figure to lots of young journalists who want to grow up to be in someday.
LEMON: Right.
STELTER: And yet, and yet this has been a devastating blow to his credibility.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: And people are now rethinking all of those thoughts they've had for years about him.
LEMON: Well, we're not that many years apart. We worked at different -- we worked at the same station in Philadelphia at different times and we also worked at NBC News together. And he was a normal guy. He would see me around town even lately and say, you know, I really loved that story that you did and you know, that this was great.
STELTER: Yes.
LEMON: And you really held back on this, and I can tell -- he is a consumer of news and so sort of the perfect person in the perfect role.
STELTER: Yes. And --
DEBORAH NORVILLE, ANCHOR, "INSIDE EDITION": But, Don, I want to jump in here.
LEMON: Go ahead, Sharon. Go ahead, Deborah, sorry about that.
NORVILLE: You know, I have to disagree with -- well, there may be many people on social media who would appear to be taking delight in this. There is no delight to be taken in this.
LEMON: Yes.
NORVILLE: And this is not only a blow for Brian, obviously. We all know how devastating this is for him, and you're right, many of us are his friends and we've admired him and worked side by side, and feel terribly for him personally, but this is also a blow for journalism.
When you look at those surveys that have been taken in the last couple of days, and the high percentages of people who don't trust that he was going to tell the story right, because of all of these -- the puffery that has been made public, it is not only dangerous for Brian, it's dangerous for journalism. I think when you look at the statement that Steve Burke specifically had added to (INAUDIBLE) as a statement, by his actions, he's jeopardized the trust of millions of Americans, his actions are inexcusable.
This is really dangerous for what all of us do in whatever area of journalism we happen to practice. When the public no longer trusts the people who are presenting the information, then the information itself becomes suspect. And I would argue that this is really reflective of the celebrity culture that we all live in, and I'm not talking about Kim Kardashian.
I'm talking about when journalists become noted for the number of Twitter followers or the number of late-night show appearances they make, or the number of funny YouTube videos.
I'm old school. I started doing this -- my first live interview was with the president of the United States Jimmy Carter, that's how long I've been doing this. And as an old-school person, you weren't supposed to be the famous guy or the famous gal, and maybe this is a good wakeup call for everyone.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: I'm with you, Deborah, on the idea that one journalist's fall cause a pain for all. This is a clubby world, it's a tight knit world, it's a cutthroat world. But we should also keep in mind, you know, to outsiders, it makes the whole industry look bad. And I think a lot of folks -- that's why there's not any joy or glee at rival networks tonight, it's because it hurts to everybody involved.
LEMON: Let's talk about --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's talk about keeping -- real quick, though. You can weigh in on this, Frank.
SESNO: Yes.
LEMON: Let's talk about to keeping tabs here on -- and checks and copy editing. Because Brian Williams is the anchor of the "Nightly News" but he's also the managing editor.
Is that a problem? Should there be someone else besides Brian Williams or the -- person who is the anchor of the newscast, meaning every, you know, anchor or every show that may have the anchor as the managing editor? Should there be someone else? Because basically he may be copy editing and approving his own work.
SESNO: Yes. You have --
WAXMAN: Yes, but I don't -- I don't --
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: I don't think so, actually.
LEMON: Go, Frank, first, and then Sharon.
WAXMAN: Well, I mean, I don't think so because I think then you have the opposite problem. We want to know in the public who are watching television anchors tell us the news that they have something to do with the news. I mean we've had other situations where we'd had trusted anchors who -- I think, you know, it was the Dan Rather case, in which they got caught up in a scandal that they didn't write the copy. It wasn't their story.
And so -- then you wonder, well, who actually is writing the story. So there is a double-edged sword there, when you start saying, yes, in this particular situation when you had Brian Williams taking himself off the air, and, you know, basically punishing himself, that was a little bit --
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: A little bit odd.
SESNO: I -- I have to -- I have to say I don't really agree with that.
LEMON: Hang on, Deborah. Hang on, Deborah.
NORVILLE: Sorry.
LEMON: That's OK. Go ahead, Frank.
SESNO: I think every great tennis player has a coach. OK. Every great person in journalism I know should have or has an editor. Every great anchor should have a producer. We all need adult supervision, as I've said before. But in this case, it's particularly important because the dirty little secret and it's not so dirty and it's not so little is, Don, you're terrific on the air, but how many people are going to come up to you after the show and say, Don, that was a really terrible interview you did or that was a stupid question you asked.
We don't do that. That doesn't happen in television. And at the end of the day, forget the industry, forget television, forget the egos, this is about the information that the American public, the public should be getting, and they need to trust it, and they don't.
We have a problem here, but we're not going to go back to the old days, sorry, Deborah. We're not going to go back to the day where we were Walter Conkrites --
LEMON: That's (INAUDIBLE).
NORVILLE: No, and I would --
LEMON: I do have - I do have to say, Frank, though, but there is --
NORVILLE: I wouldn't (INAUDIBLE) that all.
LEMON: I mean, here at CNN, we do have that. We do have those safeguards. We do have very strict approval processes.
SESNO: I know.
LEMON: And vetting processes. And people will say, you know, to all of us, why did you do that?
STELTER: Right. Right.
LEMON: Our bosses all the time. What did you do? What were you thinking? You know, do this -- so I think we still do have those checks. But you're right, I think that train has left the station especially the old school anchorman who is the voice of god.
Sorry, Deborah, go ahead.
NORVILLE: No, I'm not looking for the voice of god. I think, Frank, you misunderstand me, but what I am looking for is -- and what I think is important to remember here is that the idea of being caught up in celebrity may have been something that tripped Brian up.
LEMON: Yes.
NORVILLE: Most of these tales were not told on the evening news. There was this story that was wrong on Friday when he had the guy at the hockey game, and that's what started this entire ball of chain of events going, but most of the stories that are now the problem for Mr. Williams were told on late-night talk shows, in interviews when he was the featured speaker at a college in Connecticut. These were not errors that were committed during this reporting of news on NBC.
STELTER: True.
NORVILLE: But outside, and it's that celebrity culture that is the problem, and I think NBC would do well for all of us in journalism if their process is transparent and if all of us, not just reporters, but us as viewers as well, see how they have gone about verifying this, and whatever the ultimate action is. And I agree with -- I think it was you, Brian, who said it's unlikely that Brian will be returning to the evening news desk.
STELTER: There's one more quirk about all this, and I think Frank brought it up at the top of the segment which is NBC is buying itself more time. NBC is in the middle -- Comcast in the middle of an important merger with Time Warner Cable. This is something that dominated company discussions in recent days. They don't want any distractions from this merger. And I have to wonder, did that play a role in this decision? I'm told that Brian Roberts, the head of Comcast, was involved in these discussions. And you have to wonder, if they just wanted this embarrassment at NBC News to go away while they have these important dealings going on.
LEMON: I think people at home who are watching may think that, you know, we are just are just competitors, but we are all actually comrades and a lot of us in this business are friends, so we're thinking about those of you who work very hard at NBC News, and we are rooting for you.
Stand by, everyone. We'll continue to talk about this and much, much more.
When we come back, the most trusted man in fake news stepping down. Can "The Daily News" go on without him -- "The Daily Show" go on with him?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our Breaking News, a night of shake-up for TV viewers. Brian Williams suspended for six months from NBC Nightly News and at least, as important for a lot of viewers, Jon Stewart stepping down from The Daily Show. Back with me now, Brian Stelter, Sharon Waxman, Frank Sesno and also joining me David Folkenfilk, NPR's media correspondent, he joins us via Skype. David, you said there's a nexus with these two stories.
DAVID FOLKENFILK, NPR'S MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, there really is. I mean if you look at it, Brian Williams is a -- news anchor and some ways that something about throwback of a news man, trying to evoke the ears of Peter Jennings (inaudible) authoritative voice that -- you know, if you look at the videos of him being celebrated for 10th anniversary, it's all about the man of experience as a anchor, has been in war zones positions of peril. And yet, he bridges (ph) to imbibe with the popular culture, he likes to go into Jimmy Fallon then, he likes to 10 times slow jam the news appearing on 30 rock on Saturday Night Live and frequently on Jon Stewart's show itself. And kind to tell you -- you know Brian Williams has comedic chops, he is very funny. I remember him at the White House correspondence dinner and the late 1990's. I mean blew Ray Ramano, who's a featured comic out of the water that night. Williams really enjoyed playing in that realm. Jon Stewart by contract, the guy who is a standup comic and you remember him being the role as the -- that always wanted to fill in for Garry Sanders on the Larry -- Garry Shandling on the Larry Sanders Show in the 1990. Jon Stewart took on the role to satiric host at The Daily Show and really turned it into vehicle core (ph) both political and media criticism, as well as satire...
LEMON: Let's --
FOLKENFILK: And with doing something substantive. You know with the point of view to be sure but nonetheless, doing things that often recorded themselves to face the catch up to do.
LEMON: All right, speaking of that, let's take to a look at a clip from The Daily Show just last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON STEWART, THE DAILY SHOW HOST: Bri.
(LAUGHTER)
STWEWART: Why?
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Why, Bri?
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Why Bri, lie?
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Sigh.
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Were you Bri, high?
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Because if they keep finding (beep) Bri, bye.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Clearly, they are friends. He has been, Brian -- what? On The Daily Show more than a dozen times? I don't sure about the dozen times.
STELTER: Absolutely, he's actually more than a dozen times.
LEMON: How interesting would it be if they sort of switched roles, if Brian Williams ended up at the NBC News in some capacity and he ended up at The Daily Show. Brian?
STELTER: I would --
WAXMAN: I think that silliness, I don't think that's the real thing, come on. I mean, Brian Williams is a serious journalist and even if he wants to move to entertainment, I think that's --
LEMON: Sure a thing? Anything is possible.
WAXMAN: I think that is a fun thing for us to bandy about, I think it serious.
LEMON: I think that, we've heard many people talk about that but, you -- you don't think it -- is serious?
STELTER: You know I am much more open to the idea. Maybe it's because I think Jon Stewart has a lot of credibility, and has moved more toward news as he gotten older at The Daily Show, or as Brian Williams has moved a little more for the entertainment side...
WAXMAN: I would make it -- I would make the argument -- I would make the argument absolutely straight-faced that Jon Stewart is a more relevant news figure...
LEMON: Yeah.
WAXMAN: On the cultural landscape than Brian Williams.
SESNO: Can I just -- can I just -
STELTER: And shouldn't Brian Williams want that job. Even The Daily Show now, the most coveted job and...
LEMON: And maybe a better venue.
STELTER: News, in news.
LEMON: Yeah.
WAXMAN: Yes, but they're not going to give it to a newsman.
SESNO: Well, I just want -- I just want to say, because we are spending a lot of time talking about Brian as we should, and the traditional journalism as we should, and all this kind of stuff. But you know, I was here at CNN when we CNN -- you know, changed the world. We brought the revolution here, and Jon Stewart, we should spend a minute just acknowledging what Jon Stewart has done. Because he's revolutionizes the news or satire or whatever it is in an unbelievable way. You know, I hang out with these young people and my students all the time at the university. They're watching Jon Stewart, and they are not the only one, because it goes all up and down the demographic chain. Jon Stewart as an -- but look at, there he is interviewing the vice president -- the president of the United States. He has unbelievable access, but because he speaks in the satirical ways, he has unbelievable culture impact. He may be the Mark Twain of the time, and he's stepping down in some ways, at least as much an earthquake as what's happened to Brian Williams.
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: 1,000 percent.
LEMON: Let's not do -- because he has a lot of people around him. Jon Stewart, I'm sure has -- you know, a -- whole litany of writers...
STELTER: Yeah, and Don, look around your set, I don't see the dozen writers that are here to help, yeah, I giving you jokes. It is a very different media, am I absolutely right?
LEMON: Yeah.
STELTER: Let's remember, Jon Stewart had talked to NBC about maybe taking over Meet the Press. You know, so at least NBC was interested in Jon Stewart for that. You've got to think that Comedy Central is interested or will be interested in Brian Williams.
LEMON: Yeah.
WAXMAN: Look, I mean, what the strange thing here is that Brian Williams has expressed an interest in doing more entertainment which NBC news kind of slapped down. And Jon Stewart for his part has clearly expressed the interest in doing more serious things like his movie, Rosewater, which is about a serious story of -- repression, and -- you know, what's going on in Egypt, the fact that he had Bassem Youssef, the Egyptian satirist on his show last night. So they are almost like wanting to switch places in a strange way, and that's what Jon -- the direction Jon Stewart going to go into doing more serious and impactful things. I don't think it will be more -- I don't think anything he can do will be more impactful however than the Daily Show.
LEMON: David, let's get to -- do you think that this was -- was Comedy Central surprised by this? Because it had been -- he had even mentioned it for -- you know this maybe my last contract or what have you and that this is -- you know, maybe coming to an end for him. But do you think that Comedy Central was surprised that this -- at this particular date that he would do this?
FOLKENFILK: I don't. I think that, you know, he has conveyed through the various projects, through taking the sabbaticals that through the movie and talking about the idea of (inaudible) that was something worthy of handing it on. That he's been signaling that it's not clear that he can do this forever, he has done it for a very long time now. He's done this for a decade and a half, and he's really done it with a distinction and involved only more impressive over time, you know. You think of the fact that it all has spawned the Stephen Colbert, another money-maker, and real cultural phenomenon...
LEMON: Larry Wilmore.
FOLKENFILK: You think of Larry Wilmore, you also think of John Oliver, had he stuck around for next three years so, it's like Comedy Central. You would see a very smooth transition there...
LEMON: Steve Carell.
WAXMAN: That's why.
FOKENFILK: Jon Stewart but they in going forward. Still, he is spawned, that's a culture of folks were looking and attacking and devouring both the media and political rhetoric, reporting, presentation of the narrative and taking it apart, you know, as though they're...
LEMON: Hey David.
FOLKENFILK: You know hyenas.
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: That's why you are wondering that --
LEMON: Because I want to ask, you bring up a very good point when you mentioned these people, Steve Carrel...
STELTER: Yeah.
LEMON: Larry Wilmore, John Oliver, Samantha Bee, so who -- Colbert, who's going to take, who will take over will it be Samantha Bee, Jason Jones, who is her husband. Amy Schumer, Amy Poehler, variety writes about that awesome...
STELTER: (Inaudible)
LEMOMN: Jessica Williams...
STELTER: Yeah.
LEMON: Chris Hardwick, Joel McHale, Ricky Gervais, I mean, who -- who? -- Yeah.
STELTER: Well, there's an opportunity to bring a woman into late night. There's this ridiculous lack of female talent in late night right now. I got to say, there's been a dereliction of duty here in the Comedy Central. They let John Oliver go, they let Stephen Colbert go and now they're losing Jon Stewart. Now I must say they know, you know, this people may want to leave, maybe they offer they couldn't pass up. But Comedy Central has a real problem here. They've got to replenish their talents. Their rumor is great. I think it has been a great addition.
LEMON: Yeah.
STELTER: But they are now kind of empty.
LEMON: Yeah, I agree with that. But it's like SNL. You become famous and then you move on. Sharon Waxman, same question. Who takes over?
WAXMAN: Yeah, I was -- I was going to agree with Brian and particularly on the John Oliver saying. I think that -- there is no way they were going to keep Stephen Colbert when -- you know, a network -- television network from backs up the truck, and dumps the whole a lot of money at your door. There's really very hard to say no. I mean, honestly, and I think that at a time, Comedy Central said, you know, Godspeed and God bless, and they understood that. But the John Oliver's case, I think that they -- they should have try to keep him and he really would have been, I think the best heir apparent -- yes, I would have loved to see a woman in that chair. And there is wonderful talent even within that show, Samantha Bee and other people that you mentioned who could be potential heirs to Jon Stewart. But remember it takes that particular brand of -- really sharp news judgment and really sharp humor ability...
(CROSSTALK)
WAXMAN: And Jon Stewart was really clear that he was the comedian first.
LEMON: Go ahead David, quickly.
FOLKENFILK: And remember that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert were not, who we think of now on when they started to meet their franchisers. They really evolved into it, they showed their part and come (inaudible) reserves - you know accommodation for nurturing them along and then going and doing the thing now with Larry Wilmore. Exceptionally accomplished, but nonetheless now, going on with the hood (ph). You know -- I'm not too tough on Comedy Central, that they if they rode it out for a very long time...
STELTER: No, that's true.
FOLKENFILK: And tremendous talent they've lost and they got it now, figure out a way to replace them.
LEMON: Both of these gentlemen could end up though at some place like HBO, Right? And follow the -- the John Oliver path.
STELTER: I don't know. Jon Stewart? CNN? Let's put it out there. I don't know if they ever come over here though...
LEMON: All right.
STELTER: he has been pretty critical.
LEMOM: All right. I got to go.
SENSO: I'm pulling for Amy Poehler, here...
LEMON: All right.
SENSO: I'm an Amy Phoehler fan...
STELTER: I love the Amy Phoehler...
LEMON: Stay with me, everyone. We'll continue our conversation of the changing, very quickly. Fast changing media landscape, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our Breaking News tonight. NBC suspends Brian Williams for six month without pay, as Jon Stewart announces he has stepping down from The Daily Show, back with me now, Brian Stelter, Sharon Waxman, Frank Sesno and David Folkenfilk. Brian, you've said to me that t his feels like a real shift for you in the media landscape. STELTER: We've talked a lot about technology, rapidly changing the way media's deliver. Well, this is a rapid change with two of the titans -- you know, on camera in the industry buzz news and entertainment. The dredge report headlines this morning -- this afternoon, this evening actually is -- end of fake news, end of real news, and obviously, he's being playful. But these are two of the biggest stars on television...
LEMON: Which you can really think about it, right?
STELTER: Stepping -- you know, stepping aside, either voluntarily or being forced to. Brian Williams is the most popular news anchor in this country. And he was just benched by his network for exaggerating the truth. That is extraordinary moment. And on the other side, Jon Stewart, who was revolutionize and pioneered a new form of news and satire in this country, also stepping aside creating this vacancy that how we are going to speculate about who might feel that.
LEMON: I -- want to --
STELTER: And you can see the blurry in lines as well.
LEMON: I want to talk about this -- and let's, let's talk about Brian Williams for a moment. If we -- because, in -- the release from Deborah Turness, which also has the (inaudible) from Steve Burke, his own message was added into this. They talked about while -- on Nightly News on Friday, January 30, 2015, Brian misrepresent it and went on, so we know his position. But in the next -- the next paragraph, the next sentences, in addition -- but it doesn't say in Iraq, it's just in addition, we have concerns about. Comments that occurred outside NBC News, while Brian was talking about his experiences in the field, that's not specific to me...
STELTER: No.
LEMON: For Iraq.
STELTER: No, it's open ended and that suggest that in the fact I think an investigation has been going on. They're finding another area that they are concerned about, perhaps that, the aftermath for hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Perhaps that's the Israel Hezbollah war several years ago. There are a number of areas that the network has looking into, and they also mentioned NBC legal counsel being involved, and that's the first time they have explicitly mentioned that as well. This could go in a number of ugly directions for NBC and for Brian...
LEMON: So -- Frank Sesno, I want you to weigh in on this because -- and want I just said, but I think our viewers should know that you guys actually worked together and you were colleagues?
SESNO: Myself and Brian Williams?
LEMON: Yeah.
SESNO: No, actually not. I know Brian, we -- LEMON: You guys never worked together -- at the White House?
SESNO: No. Not -- no, we didn't overlap directly, I was coming and going at the White House at the time when I was a correspondent there for this network. I know Brian was -- was not at the White House yet.
LEMON: Now I apologize, that was --
SESNO: No, not a problem.
LEMON: Wrong information that I got from producers. That's OK. So, what -- do you make of the statement? Because he says, in addition, we have concerns about comments -- stigmatism (ph) that will turns us...
SESNO: Yeah.
LEMON: But in terms about comments that occurred outside of NBC news, while Brian was talking about his experiences in the field?
SESNO: Well, well -- there's a lot of worry inside the network, and -- you know, I heard from somebody who said, I'm shell shocked by this. I mean you have to imagine what this is like to be working the place like this and this is exploding all around you. But comments, these made socially comments, it's made on the air comments, it's made at the university, all these speeches that he has given. This is kind of unsupervised sort of thing and -- there are those who say now that he was known to sort of exaggerate. He was the guy went fishing, and talked about -- you know, the fish that was larger than the one he actually reeled in. It didn't seem to affect what he was saying as a reporter on the air and that is a very important distinction where that changed though, was in the Friday broadcast where he talked about the tribute in his own time in Iraq and his bird being the one that was hit. But as they are having these conversation and they're talking with lots of people, there are a lot of pre-alarms that are going off, and that is the great concern here.
LEMON: So Sharon, do you -- do you believe NBC News knew about this and should have done something sooner?
WAXMAN: I would hope not. I mean what interest could they possibly have, and if -- if they had known earlier -- I first of all, let me say I don't have any reported information that they knew about it earlier, and didn't do anything about it, and if so, that would really be terrible. Because, you can -- you have to deal with your the start on air talent and in such a way you could have pull him back and said, you shouldn't be going on David Letterman, you shouldn't be going on The Daily Show, you shouldn't be giving so many speeches because, your -- maybe you're prone to not watching your words. I mean, I do think that if you do represent a news network, you do have to be truthful and you have to be aware that you represent that network everywhere you go, on your Twitter feed, on your Facebook page, when you give lectures and when you're sitting on David Letterman. The problem is of course that, it's hard to know exactly where the line would be. That's why I think that there's probably more to this than NBC News is telling us now, and there's more that they are concerned about. Because, if it was just a tall tale or slight exaggeration, I just don't think that they would have taken this kind of action.
LEMON: All right, everyone. Thank you very much. David Folkenflick, Frank Sesno, Brian Stelter and also Sharon Waxman, appreciate your coming on this evening. When we come right back, what happens to Brian Williams after six months? Next, someone who believes Williams deserve a second chance, he's going to be on our show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back with the Breaking News tonight. NBC Nightly News anchor Brian Williams suspended without pay for six months after revelation that he exaggerated his Iraq war experiences in 2003. Joining me now, a man who writes eloquently about why he thinks Brian Williams deserves a second chance. Historian Douglas Brinkley joins us now and the author of Cronkite. Thank you for joining us. First of all, let me get your reaction to the suspension?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, HISTORIAN: Well, I think it's appropriate. Six months seems about right. He's going without pay, it's going to give the NBC News a chance to kind of sort all this out. We're just going to see -- tally it up, how many embellishments there were, and hopefully it will give Brian Williams a chance to resuscitate himself. We like to give people second chances, he is a first-rate journalist, he gets on planes, he goes places, and I hope that this isn't the end of him. He was great pro, and I think it's just the celebrity culture that he fell, prey to at the end that caused him damage. He start becoming as much of a showman as a news person.
LEMON: Yeah, he started -- he had - actually had to really walk -- there's a fine line between as you said, showman and journalist. Tonight, you wrote this, you said, "Williams at heart is the broadcast news extraordinaire, everybody's friendly neighborhood TV news anchorman (inaudible) at his worst he double as a multimedia showman, the class clown, on listening last by lampooning his Night News straight man act. So what he accomplish with this strategy?
BRINKLEY: Well, as you can see, it destroyed his career. You know Walter Cronkite things. They went on the Mary Tyler Moore show once. But Brian Williams has been going on this comedy shows one after the other after the other sand it all got blurred when he became was a mega celebrity for NBC. It's just like Donald Trump's spoken in industrialist, and you know, businessperson, but also the -- you know doing, you got fired. It all got all mixed up I think and Brian, likes to not disappoint a crowd. He go -- he wants to make you lean forward by the campfire and hear his story. He is very good with the words, he's very colorful, and it's got him into a lot of trouble. I think if he can't come back, he's going to have to come back as the straight old-fashioned news journalist. Cut doing most of that comedy shows and get back to what he does well, and that's being an investigative reporter and a very fine anchorman.
LEMON: I want to read something else that is in the -- what you wrote on cnn.com and the entire piece is on cnn.com is, "Media critics have lauded Williams just to -- to act juggle. Serious newsman and surprisingly funny clown, but what Williams failed to consider was that death in either war Iraq or national disaster Katrina, shouldn't have a showman front and center. Ernest Hemmingway learned from hunting that one should never milk death or drown in sea of verbiage, being solemn always trumps being out in front in a battle zone." I think that's what you've just -- what you've just said in your last statement there, stick to one and continue on.
BRINKLEY: Well, that is right. And he got in trouble, because he's starting to deal with the U.S. armed forces in a false way. And that is sacred in this country. You don't lie about military service. When I wrote about Cronkite, he, over and over again said, whatever you do, don't exaggerate your war experience as a journalist. So he was flew over d-day, Cronkite over (inaudible) I didn't even know what the beach was, because you don't want to steal the thunder so to speak, for the people that are really doing it, that are going to boot camp and representing your country abroad, and that's where Brian Williams really ticked off a lot of people. You don't want have veterans angry at you.
LEMON: Douglas Brinkley, thank you.
BRINKLEY: Thank as always, Don.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
