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Don Lemon Tonight

Ferguson PD's Race Problem; Netanyahu Warns Congress Against Iran Deal; Fear of Terror Attacks Rising at Home

Aired March 03, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, and I'm Don Lemon.

The people of Ferguson have known it all along. Their police department has a race problem. They live it every day and now a Justice Department investigation confirms it.

By no means is anyone suggesting, however, that the every officer there is racist, but the numbers don't lie.

Take a look at this. The Justice Department says that 85 percent of people subject to vehicle stops in Ferguson, African-American. Nine out 10 of those receiving citations, black. Ninety-three percent of those arrested, black. In 88 percent of the cases where force was being used, it was used against, you guessed it, black people.

I want you to bear in mind, 67 percent of the population in Ferguson is black. And over 97 percent of its police officers white.

And then there is this. Racist jokes shared by police and court officers. Barack Obama wouldn't be president for long because, punch line, what black man holds a steady job for four years?

There is more where that came from. We've got a lot to talk about tonight including the fallout from a bold speech from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and the American college professor ISIS wants dead.

But first we're going to go to Ferguson and CNN's Ed Lavandera is there for us. And also justice reporter Evan Perez is in Washington for us this evening.

Evan, I want to start with you. I want you to walk us through the details of the Justice Department's finding.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, this is some really stark findings from the Justice Department investigation. You just hit just a few of the high points, but -- or rather the low points, right? But this department, according to the Justice Department investigation, was using traffic stops, jail sentences, targeting African-Americans routinely for very minor offenses.

And they went beyond the Ferguson Police Department, according to the Justice Department's investigation. They also -- the Ferguson Municipal Court System was also used to essentially raise the money off the backs of African-Americans and low income people in that area.

I'll give you one quick statistic from this -- from this report. We expect to hear a lot more of this tomorrow when the Justice Department releases its findings, but according to the Justice Department, 21,000 people who live in Ferguson, there are 16,000 people who have outstanding arrest warrants, and most of these are for very minor offenses like traffic tickets and parking infractions.

And what that amounts to, Don, is that people who can't show up in court or those who can't afford to pay their fines, end up having to go -- you know, be thrown in jail because of that.

LEMON: Evan, so what's next? What happens after the Justice Department formally announces the finding?

PEREZ: Well, the Justice Department will then seek to enter into a consent decree, they call it a consent decree, which is an agreement with the city of Ferguson under which the city will agree to fix the police department, make some changes with training, perhaps some leadership changes to make sure that this police department will -- you know, for once will begin to be protect and serve the community it serves there.

And then beyond that, we expect that the department will also -- the Justice Department will also announce that there will be no charges against Darren Wilson, the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown. And those are the two big announces we expect tomorrow from the Justice Department -- Don.

LEMON: All right. Evan Perez, thank you very much.

I want to bring in now Neil Bruntrager. We were talking about Darren Wilson. He's the attorney for Darren Wilson, the Ferguson police officer who shot and killed Michael Brown on August 9th. A grand jury decided in November not to charge Darren Wilson.

Neil, hello. What's your reaction to the Justice Department's finding?

NEIL BRUNTRAGER, DARREN WILSON ATTORNEY: Well, Don, I obviously haven't from the Justice Department. They haven't called me to tell me what their findings are, and so I've just been given the same information that everyone has which are these leaks that have the same as everyone which are the leaks that have come out in the newspaper.

In terms of the information that we have, the thing I would say is what I've been saying all along. I think we have to be really careful to make sure that we don't rush to judgment before we hear everything. Now I've heard the numbers, I've read the numbers. I understand that those numbers certainly don't look good. And I'm certainly not saying that in a situation where someone's activities are racially motivated, we shouldn't take action because we should.

But I think the Justice Department owes us an explanation. You know, to release just these facts or just this information as little as this is, as bare bones as this is, it is so incomplete for us to draw any real conclusions from this is really hard. We're going to have to go forward and we're going to have to make changes but from this.

And doesn't it strike you as odd, Don, that they're releasing this now? Why do it this way? Why not give us all the information so that we can drill down into this? I think it -- I think it raises more questions than it answers.

LEMON: But, you know, it's no different than other reports that have been over recent years that have been taken closer to St. Louis, in the Missouri area. It's not very different from other reports.

BRUNTRAGER: I've lost you, Don.

LEMON: So some people are saying it's not really new. Neil?

OK. We lost Neil Bruntrager. Let me know when we get Neil back. We'll move on. When we get Neil back, we'll talk to him.

Let's go to CNN's Charles Blow now who is a columnist for the "New York Times" and a CNN contributor.

Charles, what do you make of the findings here?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, on their face, they're incredibly disturbing. We -- I do agree that I want to wait and see the entire report tomorrow, because in media reports of this, you heard two things. One is that there is systemic bias and these numbers, if they are correct, would support a system of bias, but also the word "targeting" denotes intent. And that is a very different construct.

If you are actually targeting that it is not just that the system itself is biased and that it is an implicit bias, and people are not necessarily operating on a conscious level to oppress, but the system is oppressive, that's one thing. If, however, you are targeting with the expressed intent to pad the coffers of a local jurisdiction, that is a whole other level of charge.

So I want to wait to see what the actual report says. Number one. And number two, though, I think we need to back up and remember one thing. If it were not for the killing of Michael Brown and for the people who came into the streets to protest around that killing, we would not have had an investigation in Ferguson.

We would not have had the Justice Department looking at two years of data for this tiny place in Ferguson, and if their findings are correct as they are being reported tonight, those people who live in Ferguson would still be suffering from that oppression going forward.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: That's a really important thing to remember here. That that -- this situation is -- what happened there is not in vain.

LEMON: Yes.

BLOW: It was not -- it's not just people venting and, you know, blowing off steam. Something happened from that.

LEMON: And what you saw on the street, there was more than just Michael Brown, that was such a thing that sort of -- that tipped it off. The last straw, so to speak, Charles.

Stand by, Charles. I want to bring Neil Bruntrager back into this.

Neil, when you -- when you look at this, again, you look at the statutes, you said you want to know more. Charles says he wants to know more as well.

I want to put this up again. 67 percent -- and this is 2010 U.S. Census. 67 percent of African-Americans the population of Ferguson. 29 percent white, and there's 4 percent other. And I think full screens of this if we can get that up. And then the Ferguson Police Department, this is according to the "Washington Post", 53 members, 50 white officers and three black officers.

Do we have that? OK. And then Ferguson, the arrests in Ferguson from 2012 to 20 2014, 93 percent of the arrests were of African-Americans. This is the police department when you look at it. That is the 50 officers, three African-American officers.

That's pretty stark, Neil. Don't you think?

BRUNTRAGER: Well, again, let me say it this way. We don't know what their recruiting histories have been. They don't mention that at all in this article, Don. So when we talk about those numbers, I don't have any information from this to say that there was an effort on the part of Ferguson not to hire minority officers.

The other problem that I have is the 67 percent. They want to compare that number to all of the numbers. When you look at Ferguson, when you look at the surrounding municipalities around Ferguson, on one side you have Berkeley, which is over 87 percent African-American. On the other side you have Jennings, which is over 90 percent African- American. What we don't know is in terms of the people who are stopped, where are they from? Are they from Ferguson?

Are they from Berkeley? Are they from Jennings? Are they from the city of St. Louis? We don't know all of that. In order to understand these numbers, there is so much more that we need to know. And again, until we have all that information, we have to be very careful to withhold judgment.

I think that this effort to release this information is manipulative. I think this is designed to basically create thoughts in our head without any underlying supporting information, and anyone is going to tell us in order to make something of this, in order to make this truly useful, in order to take the tragedy of August 9th and make it useful, we've got to understand it all. Then we can invoke real reforms.

LEMON: I don't think --

BRUNTRAGER: And we're going to have to do that. LEMON: I don't think anyone disagrees with you, but when you put the

numbers up, unless there are some --

BRUNTRAGER: Good.

LEMON: Something that is out of the ordinary in explanations, one cannot say that the only people who go in and out of Ferguson, to go in and out in shop, are black people. There are people of all different ethnicities.

BRUNTRAGER: Of course.

LEMON: The numbers are still high even if you look at them just on a surface level.

BRUNTRAGER: Right.

LEMON: And when you put that picture, we are talking about the number of people we had in our newsroom today, comparatively, and how many of those people were diverse. And that's pretty stark.

I know there has been an effort by many police departments to recruit black officers. And that it's not always easy to do. But still as we said the numbers are pretty stark at the surface.

BRUNTRAGER: Right. And look. Let me tell you what we do in the city of St. Louis when it comes to these numbers. We collect all of this information every year on all of these categories that you've talked about. And we send this information out to sociologists who drill down into this so that we have an understanding of this. And they look for things like outliers, they look for those police officers who perhaps tend to arrest or to stop more African-Americans than they do white when it doesn't seem like it would fit into the area.

Again, we need so much more to understand this. That's all I'm saying, Don.

LEMON: OK.

BRUNTRAGER: I'm not trying to defend these numbers.

LEMON: No, I -- no, I --

BRUNTRAGER: We can't.

LEMON: I don't think anyone disagrees with you about that. We need to have more so that we can analyze them better, and from what we have now, that's the read --

BRUNTRAGER: Right.

LEMON: That's where we are. We are where we are now.

So I want to ask you about Darren.

BRUNTRAGER: Sure. Right, right. LEMON: So you spoke to Darren today. What does he -- is he

optimistic? What -- how is he doing?

BRUNTRAGER: Well, I mean, you know, like anyone else who would be in his situation, he is anxious for an answer, he's anxious for it to be done. And so again, we're going to see what tomorrow brings. We're certainly hoping that there'll be any answer tomorrow.

I've been told in my capacity as the general counsel for the Police Officers Association, that it looks like there will be a determination that will come tomorrow. I know that the Justice Department is reaching out to a lot of people. No one has called me, Don, and no one has said, hey, this decision is coming tomorrow, so we'll see. I hope it does, and again, I hope after tomorrow, after tomorrow, we can all sit down and we can all learn from this because, as Charles said, hopefully something good will come out of this terrible tragedy.

LEMON: And as we -- as I said in the beginning of this broadcast, no one is suggesting that every person in the Ferguson Police Department is biased or racist in any way. As Charles -- pointed out accurately, it could be something that's built into the system, and people are acting upon it, they're not even aware of.

Does Darren now believe that there is, quote, "a pattern and practice of discrimination" against African-Americans among the Ferguson Police Department?

BRUNTRAGER: Don, I did not talk to him about the contents of these newspaper articles, basically because we wanted to make sure we had all the information before we said anything.

LEMON: OK.

BRUNTRAGER: I'm not in a position where I can speak for him tonight. Tomorrow when we have some decisions that are made, perhaps we can do that a little bit better, but at least as -- as far as tonight is concerned, I really can't speak to that.

LEMON: OK. Neil, I want you to hang around because we're going to bring Charles back and some other guests as well. So stand by to Neil Bruntrager.

We've got a lot more on this story to come.

When we come right back, the reaction in Ferguson to the Justice Department's scathing report on discrimination by the police. We'll go there live.

Plus the Memphis college professor marked for death by ISIS. Why he says he's more afraid of the radical right than ISIS.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Justice Department report on discrimination by the Ferguson Police Department won't be released to the public until tomorrow afternoon, but Ferguson already reacting tonight.

CNN's Ed Lavandera is there for us.

Ed, Ferguson officials met with the Department of Justice today. What happened in that meeting?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we understand that they were presented with the report. They haven't commented officially on it yet, Don. We're told that the city officials are reviewing the report. And that they will hold a press conference on Wednesday to talk about it, so no official response.

But it's interesting, I've talked to various -- several community leaders here in the Ferguson area, and what they have to say or tell me tonight is that they hope that this is really a wakeup call across the St. Louis area. And to kind of understand why they say that, you have to understand that St. Louis itself is a small city, St. Louis County is made up of many cities like the city of Ferguson. And what many people here are saying that this isn't just a Ferguson

problem, that this is something that is much more widespread in various other little municipalities like Ferguson operating much the same way, but much of the focus has clearly been on Ferguson because of what happened here back in August.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Ed Lavandera.

I want to bring back in Neil Bruntrager, Charles Blow, as well as Jeff Roorda of the St. Louis Police Officers Association and John Gaskin, a community activist and Ferguson native.

I do have to say, gentlemen, I spoke with a source at the Ferguson Police Department. I said, would you like to come on and they said not after -- not until I've had a few scotches first. So this information is hitting them hard.

So, Jeff, you know, when you hear the stats of 86 percent of vehicle stops involved African-Americans, 90 percent of citations went to African-Americans, 93 of the arrests were African-Americans, you live in the area, what's your reaction to the Justice Department findings?

JEFF ROORDA, ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: Well, Don, to me the most shocking statistic is that 100 percent of police departments that the Justice Department investigates for pattern and practice violations are found to have engaged in some bad pattern or bad practice.

I think that would lead one to the conclusion that every police department in America engages in these bad practices, and I just don't think that that's the case. And I don't think your viewers believe that's the case.

LEMON: You don't think that every police department has a few bad apples, surely every company has a few bad apples, and no one is perfect, no department, no business.

ROORDA: Sure.

LEMON: No company is perfect.

ROORDA: Right. But what do we accomplish by painting this entire police department or all of law enforcement with one brush because of those few bad apples as you've described them?

LEMON: Do you see this as painting every police department with a broad brush, John Gaskin?

JOHN GASKIN, FERGUSON COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: Absolutely not. I think it puts the neighboring police departments on notice. Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Jeff on that one. The Ferguson police department has been historically known to have these types of problems as you mentioned in your coverage earlier tonight.

This is no surprise to the residents or the people of St. Louis County. We've known that these statistics are way, way out there, and obviously much higher than what they should be, but what I'd like to know, and like to see is the DOJ remain committed to taking a look into the practices of police departments in neighboring communities so that we can shed the light on these types of problems.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Is there finally a sense --

GASKIN: Because of the --

LEMON: With you and with other people there that something that -- at least the Justice Department is getting to the bottom of this in some way?

GASKIN: Yes, you know, people -- since the protest started back in August, you've seen the civil disobedience, you've seen the marches, you've seen the protests. This is the type of justice that people were talking about, a level of accountability, a level of transparency, and some type of action.

You know, it's so unfortunate that Michael Brown had to be killed, but as Mr. Blow mentioned earlier, you know, his death will not be in vein because there are going to be some changes moving forward, and I'm encouraged by what we've heard at least by the leaks, and I'm looking forward to the DOJ's, you know, full findings that will be released tomorrow hopefully.

LEMON: When I was on the ground in Ferguson and very early on, and we went there with the intention just to listen to people, to both sides, the police officers and to the people of Ferguson, and a lot of people were expressing their frustrations with the police department.

I want you to take a listen to some of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: How many of you trust the police in this area?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can go three feet to the left and three feet to the right, and you are in a different municipality, but I'll tell you what, on every corner, they're flooded out down the street with black people. Black people need all the way out to the street, and that Pagedale, Hillsdale, or Ferguson, traffic court which makes up most of the budget. Most of the budget comes from traffic tickets which is the black folks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So that conversation went on live for at least 20 minutes, and you know, I kept hearing, keep going, keep going, this is a great conversation, and so we went on for at least -- maybe 25, 30 minutes with that conversation with people in the community, Charles, all saying the same thing.

You heard that man expressing what the Justice Department review will likely conclude that there is an emphasis on generating revenue from people of color through citations, court fines. That's a bigger issue here, isn't it?

BLOW: Right. Well, it's the intersection of poverty and minority populations, right. So there -- you know, we'll wait to see what this particular report says. But the larger issue is whether or not people across this country are using or preying on poor people who overlaps significantly with minority populations and then -- getting them into the system in a way that they cannot in effect get their way out.

I mean, if you're poor already and you don't have the money to pay the fine and then the warrant is issued, you see how the snowball begins to roll down the hill, right? And so that is -- that becomes the problem. And I think that what you were hearing on the street, if people's lived experiences, what this report appears to be is data to back up the lived experiences in America.

LEMON: OK.

BLOW: And I think one of other thing which is that the gentleman before me saying, you know, the Justice Department always finds some level of bias, I think that -- and viewers don't believe that. I think that the inverse is true, that in fact what we are demonstrating is what the sociologists tell us which is that bias is embedded in the American psyche, and that, when they -- if you go looking for it, you will in fact find it.

And what we need to deal with is not necessarily looking at the police officers, and saying, whoa, it's them, because the bias has been pointed out, but look at the victims of that bias, the people who are operating on the architecture of that oppression, and look at what effects it is having on that population.

LEMON: I want to talk to you, Jeff. You know, with all due respect, do you think that you are so close to it, that you can't see it? Because basically what I'm hearing, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, is that you don't think the police have done anything wrong or can do no wrong. And if you are listening in a position of leadership, you listen to the people of Ferguson, there should be at least some degree of acceptance as to what they are living is true.

And you have to listen to the other side and say, and relent a little, and go, OK, maybe you are right, because if you stand your ground, and you say, we're not -- we haven't done anything wrong, and then they say, we haven't done anything wrong, how do you accomplish anything?

ROORDA: I agree, Don. There needs to be that level of dialogue, there hasn't yet, and I think that --

LEMON: But you don't appear to be open to it, Jeff.

ROORDA: I think that --

LEMON: Knowing the numbers -- the numbers come out.

ROORDA: Absolutely.

LEMON: And you can say, you know, do the arithmetic, here's the math. Here are the numbers. Yes, we do need more information.

ROORDA: But we got to get some context to that number -- those numbers.

LEMON: I agree with you but you're still not admitting that --

(CROSSTALK)

ROORDA: That 67 percent tells us --

LEMON: -- with any police department across the country including Ferguson.

ROORDA: Absolutely, absolutely. I get that, Don. I hear what folks are saying, but 67 percent tells us who's lying in bed at night in Ferguson, and tell us that the census population, who's sleeping in bed at night at Ferguson, not who's there during the day when people are awake and police are having more contact with folks.

I mean, we have to put some context to these numbers and we've got to understand them, and Michael Brown will have died in vain if we don't get to the real problems. And to go back to of Mr. Blow's point, the real problem is in relation to this overlapping phenomenon with blacks and African-Americans in this country being more likely to be in poverty and being more likely to come into contact with the police, and as a result, we have what looks like racial disparity, and when really it is something else.

LEMON: Neil, I want to get one more question to you, but unfortunately I have to go. Hope we will see you back here tomorrow once the information is in. If you guys will all come back on and thank you all gentlemen for being candid. I appreciate it.

BRUNTRAGER: Thanks, Don. This was easy. I didn't have to say anything.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, guys. I really appreciate it.

Coming up, did he convince his critics, including an angry White House? Israel's prime minister in a controversial address to Congress slammed an attempt by the U.S. and its allies to get Iran to freeze its nuclear program.

We're going to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Good evening. Both praise and criticize, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu whose address to Congress warning against the deal to freeze Iran's nuclear program. He calls it a bad deal that will involve in Iran to build nuclear weapons threatening the existence of Israel. White House official say the speech was all talk and Netanyahu offered no viable alternatives. Join now by Michael Smerconish, CNN political commentator and host of CNN's Smerconish, and Newt Gingrich, former Speaker of the House and also a CNN contributor. Newt, did Prime Minister Netanyahu convince Americans that President Obama is on the road to making a bad deal with Iran? Is that what he came to do?

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, he came to convince the people who matter in Congress, that a bad deal is worst than no deal, and the shape of the deal that Secretary Kerry is negotiating is a terrible deal. And I think his speech was very effective, and for the 2/3 to 3/4 of the Congress that's open to persuasion, I think they left there much more unified in being opposed to a bad deal.

LEMON: OK. Let's take a listen to both men, first Netanyahu, making his case, and then the president, rebutting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL: We have two major concessions. One, leaving Iran with a vast nuclear program, and two, lifting the restrictions on that program in about a decade, that's why this deal -- is so bad. It doesn't block Iran's path to the bomb, it paves Iran's path to the bomb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Here's how the president responded to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The alternative to the prime minister offer is no deal. In which case Iran will immediately begin once again pursuing its nuclear program, accelerate the nuclear program without us having any insight into what they are doing, and without constraint.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So Michael, first, who is right?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR, "SMERCONISH": Don, I think that Benjamin Netanyahu delivered a provocative speech, a forceful speech, you knew it, it was going to be a strong speech just because he has that skill set, but I don't think that his substance alters whether at this time, he should have come and deliver it. I think a better course of action is to give the president and the secretary of the state the opportunity to negotiate some type of a peaceful resolution of the situation. I'm not convinced that we know enough about the deal where he can weigh in so forcefully today and say, it's a bad deal.

LEMON: Speaker Gingrich?

GINGRICH: Well, I think that the Israelis have a pretty clear sense of what the agreement is going to be. And I think the objective fact is, if you are Israel as -- the prime minister said at one point yesterday, we talked about national security, Israel talks about survival, and I believe they are terrified of an Iranian nuclear weapon, and they believe that this deal will lead to the an Iranian nuclear weapon within a decade if not sooner. They also have a powerful case that the Iranians keep lying to the International Atomic Energy Association, I mean over and our agency. Over and over and over, and we have no reason to believe the Iranians will tell the truth.

LEMON: Democrats, most of Democrats skipped the speech. Nancy Pelosi did go, and Michael, she said that Netanyahu is insulting the intelligence of American. He was talking down to Americans and the administration.

SMERCONISH: I don't think that the implication was so much about the intelligence of the administration of the American people. But I do think by implications, this was the Israeli prime minister, essentially paining the president, despite the platitudes of the outset of the speech as a patsy. Somebody who is being duped by Iran, and I don't think that's fair. And I also think that it is important that America speak with one voice on matters of foreign policy. I don't like the precedent that this sets, if in 2017 President Rand Paul is in at spat with Speaker of the House Debbie Wassermann Schultz, and she takes it upon herself to invite a foreign leader with whom the president is then in disagreement to come address the Congress, we will be back in the same position. I don't think that's where we want to be.