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Don Lemon Tonight
Interview with David Boren; Outrage Over N-Word Chant; Unarmed Black Teen Shot by Police in Madison; Suge Knight Says He's Not Guilty of Fatal Hit and Run; Bill Cosby Finally Speaks; CNN Hero: Maria Keller
Aired March 09, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Malcolm X was killed February 21, 1965, 17 days later, the march on Selma. Now half a century on, how much has changed.
This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon, and this has got to make you wonder if America's really made any progress at all on race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FRAT MEMBERS: There will never be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) at SAE. There will never be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) at SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but it will never start with me. There will never be --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It's disgusting. I'm going to talk exclusively to the Oklahoma Sooners star linebacker. He is outraged by those frat members chanting the N word among other things.
Plus protests after a young black man unarmed is shot to death by a white officer. But if you think this is Ferguson all over again, you better think again.
And this shocking video obtained by TMZ. The latest on the Suge Knight murder case.
We have a whole lot to get to tonight, so make sure you stay with us but I'm going to begin with that Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity racist video.
Joining me now is David Boren, he's the president of the University of Oklahoma.
Thank you so much for joining us.
DAVID BOREN, UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Don.
LEMON: I want to play the video that started all of this, and I'm going to get your reaction to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FRAT MEMBERS: There will never be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) at SAE. There will never be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) at SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but it will never start with me. There will never be --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Everyone I think is just -- was just flabbergasted when they -- when they saw or heard that video. What was your reaction?
BOREN: Well, I was angered. I was outraged and saddened. Because we've worked so hard to create a real sense of family and community on our campus. And 99.9 percent of our students, you know, really care about each other, they really respect each other. And then to have a small number of people do that, it was unbelievable that this could possibly have occurred with OU students.
We're just -- Sooners are not racists, they're not bigots, they are people who respect each other and care about each other. And for the sake of our students as well as for the values that are represented here, when something happens that's so contrary to the values of our university, I thought we had to take action, decisive action and take it immediately.
LEMON: Mr. Boren, you said a small number of people. There are people who have come on, you know, on CNN and on other broadcasts, and saying -- they're saying, these are just a small number of people who were caught. That this is pervasive throughout the Greek system, not only in Oklahoma, but across the country. And that many of the leaders on those campuses have turned a blind eye to it. They just happened to be caught.
BOREN: Well, I think that it is happening all across our country. I agree with you. It's not just the Greek system, it's not just colleges and universities. It's Ferguson, Missouri, it's all sorts of elements of our society are involved. And I think the only way you stop it, the only way you put a stop to it is have zero tolerance when it is found out.
Clearly, I think some of our students wanted this exposed. They wanted this video out there, and I've asked them to please let me know when there are other things like this that happen. But if we're ever going to snuff this out in the whole country, let alone on college campuses, we have to have zero tolerance and we have to act right away.
This particular fraternity is off the campus, it is thrown off. It's going to stay off. They have to have their belongings out of their house by tomorrow. And --
LEMON: Do you think that they should be expelled? Do you think the members of Sigma Alpha Epsilon should be expelled?
BOREN: I think you have to be very careful about looking at individual cases. But if we can find out who's responsible, we're going to do our best to either suspend, or to expel, under the federal law. We're examining the 1964 Civil Rights Act right now, Title 6. And we're trying to determine if we have enough evidence and if we can meet the federal standards to prevail in court. And if so, we'll take action.
And I think some of the students themselves may take themselves off the campus, and I hope they do. Because this is not a place that wants racists or bigots on our campus, or will tolerate it. So I think you have to send a very strong signal. There's no excuse for that. And you know, they have to go and settle things all across the country, jokes that are made, offhand remarks that are made in conversation, we have to start challenging everywhere we are.
LEMON: OK.
BOREN: We have to really start challenging.
LEMON: Yes, I think you're right. Listen, I went to a college down south and it was segregated. There were no students of color in any -- you know, involved in the Greek system, fraternities or sororities. As a matter of fact they started their own -- you know, the black fraternities, or the Asian fraternities.
BOREN: Yes.
LEMON: And people say that that is still prevalent today. Is that -- why is that even allowed to occur in this day and age?
BOREN: Well, it shouldn't happen. And at the University of Oklahoma, I can name several fraternities that -- where that's not the case, where we have very diverse fraternities, both racially diverse, and diverse in other ways. And sororities as well. One of our most prominent sororities on the campus, for example, had an African- American president two years ago. And so that's beginning to change. Thankfully.
But there's still some bad actors. Just like any system and there seems to be a culture in some of these fraternities and it just has to be snuffed out. And we have to also, and we're working together, I'm working with a group of students who are calling for change and who are bringing ideas to me on our campus. There are group of African- American students called Unheard. They're very constructive.
They have very good ideas and we're going to make it better. We're simply determined to make it better.
LEMON: Well, you took very quick action in denouncing this and we thank you for joining us here on CNN, David Boren.
BOREN: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: The Oklahoma Sooners football team marched against racism today. There you see them locked hand in hand in response to that N word-laden fraternity video. They didn't say N word. The word they were saying was nigger. They said, "We'll never have a nigger in SAE." That's what they were saying.
So my next guest one of the leaders of that march, and joining me now exclusive me is Eric Striker. He's a star linebacker for the Sooners.
You were outraged when you first heard and you put out a video?
ERIC STRIKER, UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA SOONERS STAR LINEBACKER: Yes. I was angered. I was -- you know, I was outraged. And kind of, you know, had a video that, you know, just quickly showed my anger, but you know, like I said, I apologize for the profanity, but I'm not apologizing about how I felt because that's how I felt in my heart.
LEMON: Let's let our viewers look at the video and we'll let you talk about it a bit more. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STRIKER: I'm so mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) furious right now. SAE just (EXPLETIVE DELETED) it up for all you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) white fraternities. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) all you (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And if anything you mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) affiliated with, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you, too.
The same mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) talking about racism don't exist, be the same mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shaking our hand, giving us hugs, telling them how you really love us. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you phony (EXPLETIVE DELETED) fraud (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You said these are the same people, you said, you know, same m-fers who are shaking your hand when you win a football game. You know --
STRIKER: Yes.
LEMON: You feel betrayed?
STRIKER: Don, before we get started on questions, I just want to state here, I am speaking amongst all athletes here at the university. Not just black, not just football players, this is, you know, everybody that I'm speaking for, and, you know, as athletes here, we agree with President Boren that we shouldn't tolerate that type of behavior here and it shouldn't be accepted. And we feel that is -- that David Boren has taken the right steps to act severely towards the behavior that we saw in the video.
And we have -- it was such a bad reflection on the people here. So many nice people, great people here in Oklahoma.
LEMON: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Is that your statement --
STRIKER: You know, it kind of put a bad rep on the university. Yes.
LEMON: Yes, you said that you had a statement from the football players. Is that the statement that you just said that it doesn't reflect everyone on the football team?
STRIKER: This is from -- this is from all athletes.
LEMON: Yes.
STRIKER: This is all -- we got together.
LEMON: OK.
STRIKER: And you know, like I said, you know, there's so many great people here.
LEMON: But people will understand why you felt so betrayed after you -- you know, all the athletes, anyone who goes there, white or black, you know, you go out on the field, you go out on the court and you play because you want to -- you want to put a good -- you want your team to win, you want the university to be viewed in a good light and then to have something like this, it really just goes against all your hard work. So you must feel betrayed by this?
STRIKER: Right. And, you know, we all do. You know, and I did, you know, that's the sad part about it. You know, that really hurts. You know, these guys, some of them, not all of them, that feel this way after the game, they're smiling, they're taking pictures with us, shaking our hands, giving us hugs. And the fact that some of them feel that way behind closed doors when we're not around, really, really, really you know, hurts, hurts us.
LEMON: But, Eric, they're saying they want -- they would rather have a black person be hung from a tree than to join their dumb fraternity. I mean, come on. That's -- everyone is going on about the N word, about them saying nigger, but I think hanging someone from a tree is much more serious than a word that doesn't really -- you know.
STRIKER: Right.
LEMON: Right?
STRIKER: Right. And I think that was one of the -- I agree, one of the sad parts and bad parts about the whole chant, is the hanging from the tree thing. I mean, we -- you know, we're here in 2015, I thought we were way past, you know, the hanging from a tree thing. You know, just that chant, that it exists in 2015, it's just -- it's sad, you know, to hear.
LEMON: Do you think the school has done enough? Because I asked President Boren if -- you know, if leaders around the country, including at OU, if they were turning a blind eye to this, how could they -- how could university leaders around the country not know that this is pervasive in many fraternities among the Greek system? Do you think the university is doing enough? Do you think the university had warning before? They should have known?
STRIKER: Well, I think it's blatant, it's straight, it's out there. And I'm not saying that it hasn't happened before, but this is something that really extreme. Not saying the little things that happened before should get pushed under the rug. But, you know, we believe that, you know, President Boren is taking the right actions in investigating and doing the right thing. You know, more than just suspensions and expelling these students.
The people who were responsible for it, the people on the bus. This is how, you know, we feel. That action should take -- students should get expelled that had a lot to do with that, the ones on the bus.
LEMON: What would you say to those guys on the bus if you had a chance to say your piece?
STRIKER: Well, you know, just that, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm angry that, you know, that, you know, that happened, but I think to move forward, you know, the ignorance come from us not knowing each other and, you know, you know, really integrating us, you know, as athletes, and/or either, you know, minorities, you know, working with them, getting to know them somehow, to know that, you know, we're all people, you know, we're all equal.
You know, this is not one characteristic that one race has. You know, we all are different people, doesn't matter what race or creed. But, you know, I just hope that, you know, that this is a hard lesson for them. I hope they learn from it. If anything, I hope they change and see that, you know, us as, you know, African-Americans are not, you know, some, you know, evil type, you know, type people, to even say that about us.
LEMON: I want you to listen to this. This is the president of the Black Students Association on another program, I believe it was FOX earlier. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISAAC HILL, BLACK STUDENTS ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT: It is not smart to fight hate with hate. It is only logical to fight hate with love and to show that right now, I do say that I forgive them and I hope that we can take this experience and not -- hopefully they don't turn this into hate towards -- or more hate towards our community, but better yet as a time to learn and grow, and I want to see them -- I invite them to come meet with us and learn from us and learn why that was offensive, so they can maybe get a better understanding and not pass this on to future generations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What do you think? You think -- can you forgive them? Do you think he's right?
STRIKER: I mean, I -- I mean, I agree. You know, we shouldn't fight hate with hate. You know, that's not the way to get it done. You know, and the way we see it is, you know, you know, putting things in that allow, you know, everybody to know, you know, about different cultures, you know, Native, African-Americans, you know, all these cultures, you know, where they learn, you know, learn our history, you know, and how we -- you know, operate as people, and where we came from. I think that's imperative that, you know, we come up with something,
you know, and we're working on it, to get, you know, everybody all in, you know.
LEMON: Yes.
STRIKER: You know, and us working with each other. We can't fight hatred with hatred. You know what I mean?
LEMON: Yes.
STRIKER: You know, we can't, you know, be mad at them. And, you know, and you know, some -- and I'm sure some of the guys, you know, that parents raised them, you know, the right way, maybe they just fell into the -- you know, the environment of the fraternity and they felt like they needed to say that. And if they didn't, you know, they would be dealt with, you know, by the fraternity.
So you know, in some ways, you know, you want to work with them and, you know, hopefully, you know, they'll, you know, learn from --
LEMON: How can you, though --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I understand what you're saying, it takes a big person to say what the young man said and to say what you're saying. But initially, you have to look at it and say, you know what, where did they learn that? Because if your parents raised you right, no matter what somebody else is doing, you don't do it just to belong. A lot of that has to do with home training.
STRIKER: Right.
LEMON: And a lot of them probably learned it at home.
I have to ask you this one last question.
STRIKER: Right.
LEMON: The top America's high school recruit is de-committing to play for OU because of this. What do you think of that?
STRIKER: He's de-committing from Texas to play for OU because of what?
LEMON: Yes. Because of what happened. Yes. He's de-committing to OU. He's a high school top pick in Texas.
STRIKER: He's --
LEMON: Yes.
STRIKER: He's de-committing from OU? Well, you know, I -- you know, I just want to, you know, let, you know, all recruits know that, you know, we're working in a great fashion here and, you know, and you know, like I said, you know, that just ruined it. You know, they kind of -- you know, the great people of Oklahoma, that, you know, that small bit of people just, you know, made, you know, you know, the other fraternities and, you know, people that, you know, mean right, the good people at heart, just look so bad.
LEMON: Right.
STRIKER: You know what I mean? So, you know, right now, as athletes, you know, we're -- we are getting it right and we are getting it straight and, you know, I can't -- you know, I can't --
LEMON: Well, we hope --
STRIKER: Hope we can make him change his mind.
LEMON: We hope that you will come back and we hope that you guys can work it out. We'll continue to follow this, and again, you're a very remarkable young man.
Thank you very much for coming on CNN.
STRIKER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you.
We've got a lot more on the outrage over Sigma Alpha Epsilon's racist chant. But are we fooling ourselves when we think this kind of racism is a thing of the past? I'm going to ask that question.
Yes, we are fooling ourselves.
Plus, take a look at this video, never before seen in public. It captures the exact moment the first bomb went off at the Boston marathon and what happened next. Will Dzhokhar Tsarnaev get the death penalty?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight CNN has learned the University of Oklahoma says that the young woman who made that racist video public is being taken care of by the university, that she has security, but this is far from the first controversy for Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Last month, for example, it was banned from Yale University until 2016 after members allegedly inferred -- excuse me -- interfered with an investigation. Interfered with an investigation.
Joining me now is Andrew Lohse, who is a member of the fraternity at Dartmouth and is the author of "Confessions of an Ivy League Boy: A Memoir." I can't wait to talk to him.
Also CNN frat boy, also joining me now is political commentators Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson.
How are you gentlemen doing tonight?
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good evening. MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good, Don.
ANDREW LOHSE, AUTHOR, CONFESSIONS OF AN IVY LEAGUE BOY: A MEMOIR: Good evening.
LEMON: So, Marc, you first. I heard you on today. You're saying that this is a form of assault, a form of violence. Why do you say that?
HILL: Well, because of the effect that it has. Every study shows this, and (INAUDIBLE) also showed this, and just good old-fashioned common sense tells you that if you live in an environment or go to school in an environment where people are threatening to hang you from trees, where there is an animus toward black people, it's unhealthy. It hurts the spirit, it hurts the mind.
It does psychological damage. It's the day-to-day question of racism and white supremacy that we often don't talk about. And that's just the point here. Even though this was caught on tape, this isn't the only thing that's ever happened from this frat or even on this campus.
LEMON: Come on. Not --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Are you kidding?
LEMON: No, I'm saying, people -- I can't believe people think that this is the only -- it did not surprise me. I was surprised that it was actually caught on video.
HILL: Exactly.
LEMON: But having gone to a school in the south, this happens all the time. This is just a very small portion of the crap that people say.
I mean, Andrew -- Andrew, correct me if I'm wrong here.
LOHSE: No, I think you're right. I mean, I think that racism is alive and well in the American college campus. I mean, even at Dartmouth where I go to school and I saw it in my former fraternity, too, where, you know, members of that fraternity would refer to the civil war as the war of northern aggression. You know, and many of them believe that women have no place at the college itself.
So I think that, you know, I agree with Mark. You know, this -- the story of racism in America is intimately connected to the story of racism and discrimination in fraternities. And until we really get at the root of that problem, which is removing these offending organizations, in general, from college campuses, I don't think we're going to make a whole lot of progress. And we're going to keep seeing these videos like we've seen out of Oklahoma today.
LEMON: You were a former member of SAE. And if we could put it up on the screen, I think it was 130 -- according to your own Web site, SAE's own Web site, lists -- more than 130 cited or suspended people for health and safety incidents since 2010. And that doesn't include several recent incidents. So anyway, if you -- I don't know if we have it up on the screen, but those incidents, let me tell you what they include.
Pleasant University in Texas, shocked with cattle prods, burned with an iron, and on and on and on. Freshman kept in the dark basement for hours. Again, the one I read, banned from Yale University. But we don't talk about all the racist incidents. There's part of it right there.
Ben Ferguson, do you think that this incident is isolated?
FERGUSON: No, I don't. And I also think a lot of this comes down to a bunch of punks that are cowards that would never have the guts to say any of this outside their controlled environment with their group of, I would even call them gang-like members, where they know they're all together, they're all on this bus. It's a controlled environment. They wouldn't say this outside of this area. They wouldn't say it out in public. They wouldn't say it in a classroom. And if anything here --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But, Ben, I would challenge you and say perhaps it would be better if they had the balls to say it out in public or in a classroom.
FERGUSON: Well, look, my point is --
LEMON: Instead of hiding behind closed doors.
FERGUSON: No, I totally agree with you. But my point is this, what we need is other -- we need other presidents of universities to step out and say to the fraternity systems at their universities, you think what just happened in Oklahoma is somehow disconnected from here, it's not. And if we find out there's anything remotely close to this, we will come down on you as hard or harder than the president just did at Oklahoma.
That's the first step in the right direction, but there is a lot of this out there. Because when you put people in a group like this, they say things that they wouldn't have the guts to say on their own time, by themselves, out in the common, you know, argument of a classroom.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But, Ben, I would also say, these people -- these kids did not just learn this when they became 18 years old.
FERGUSON: No, it's a culture.
LEMON: And they got shipped off to college.
HILL: Right.
FERGUSON: It's a culture.
LEMON: Where did they learn it from? They had to learn it from their parents or at home or younger, when they were in elementary, at junior high school?
FERGUSON: This is pledges. But here's the thing. This is what the problem is with pledging. When I went even through it, I told every fraternity I went through, I'm not going to be hazed. So don't give me a bed if you're going to hazed me. And guess what, I got kicked out of a lot of chances.
LEMON: Yes.
FERGUSON: And I was fine with that. But when you haze people and you treat them like this, and you put them into this environment, you get what you sew. I mean, it's disgusting.
LEMON: You went to Ole Miss, right?
FERGUSON: Yes.
LEMON: Where were you -- where were you?
FERGUSON: I was a Kappa Alpha kid.
LEMON: Did you have any black members in your fraternity?
FERGUSON: We did not, no.
LEMON: OK. Andrew --
FERGUSON: But I will say this. But I will say this.
LEMON: Yes.
FERGUSON: My fraternity had an incredible relationship with other minority fraternities on campus.
LEMON: All right.
FERGUSON: And I will also say this. I had an African-American roommate.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: He had black friends, too.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: You had black friends. Andrew --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I'm up against the clock. But I got to ask you very quickly.
HILL: We know some two dogs (ph). LEMON: Smart. Hey, brother.
FERGUSON: Marc --
HILL: I'm sorry.
LEMON: Andrew, Andrew, do you think that the university knew about this? Because everyone's saying, oh my gosh, we didn't know. How could you not know?
LOHSE: Well, you know, I wouldn't want to speculate about that. But I mean, what we do know is that, you know, this problem of discrimination is intimately linked to the history and the idea of fraternities in general, you know, in America. I mean, what do we really talk about when we talk about a fraternity?
LEMON: Yes.
LOHSE: When we talk about collective psychology that gets people to do things that they wouldn't otherwise do. And I really hit that hard in my book.
LEMON: OK.
LOHSE: But you know, what we're really -- yes, I mean, what's --
LEMON: I got to run.
LOHSE: What -- yes.
LEMON: Yes. Marc, sorry. I'd let you talk more, but I already know how you feel, and you're already acting up.
(LAUGHTER)
Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Marc. Thank you, Ben. I appreciate it.
Up next, a call for calm after protesters take to the streets in Madison, Wisconsin, after the shooting death of an unarmed black teenager by a white police officer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Protesters jammed the state capital in Madison, Wisconsin, today in the wake of a shooting death of an unarmed black teen at the hands of a white police officer. Inside the capitol rotunda, they chanted slogans like hands up, don't shoot.
Nineteen-year-old Tony Robinson was shot to death by an officer in Madison on Friday following what police say was a scuffle inside an apartment.
Robinson's family is calling on protesters to be peaceful.
Joining me now is Madison, Wisconsin, Police Chief Mike Koval, Chief, thank you for joining us.
CHIEF MIKE KOVAL, MADISON, WISCONSIN POLICE: Appreciate being asked, thank you.
LEMON: Right off the top, I want to ask you, you're doing things very differently than the Ferguson police and the chief did. You quickly released the name of the officer involved, Matt Kenny. You apologized. You've met with some of the family over the weekend. I'm curious, because we don't know what went on inside the apartment, it's early on. Why did you feel the need to apologize?
KOVAL: Well any time there's been a loss of life, a young man of 19, with all that unrealized potential, his family, his friends, life is sacred to me and to our department, why wouldn't you do the most appropriate thing, and that is to apologize for that loss of life. It just sorts to seem the right thing to do.
LEMON: So you - why is this shooting of an unarmed teen? Why do you think it's different than Ferguson?
KOVAL: Well, it's only -- it's not different in the sense that we have a person of color, cut down in his prime. He was unarmed, by a police officer. So whether I like it or not, I'm inextricably tied to the Ferguson, phenomena. But what I'd like to believe is that in terms of our community, in terms of the trust that's been garnered over time, over many decades, I'd like to believe that we will not be defined by this incident unto itself. I believe that the outreach, the relationships we've established through our neighborhoods and our schools, and so, so many different things that we do that, I'm hopeful that when given an opportunity, the community, the family and their friends, I'm hopeful that they will forgive us and that we can move on constructively and re-establish that trust we need to do good community policing.
LEMON: What's your reaction? You said that you feel you're inextricably linked to Ferguson, just because of the circumstances, an unarmed teenager. What's your reaction to all the protests that have been going on?
KOVAL: It's natural. There has been a sort of mistrust that's been occasioned by this incident, and people are taken aback. They're upset, they resent the police, I dear say, some hate us right now. But, as one of our oaths, as a constitutional officer of the court, we are there to facilitate constitutional rights and one of those rights that are paramount with us is the first amendment, the rights of assembly, the right to speech. And we want to facilitate that, we want to foster that. The only thing that we're tempering all that with is, is please, to the extent that it's possible, we'd like to have people be respectful of one another and property. And other than that, those are our only two predicates. We will walk and walk and we have been walking, as people are very angry and understandably so.
LEMON: Yeah, you saw the Justice Department just last week from the Ferguson Police Department, and now you have this. Do you think that there's a race issue with police departments across the country? KOVAL: I think that it's an inescapable reality, and I think that you
have to look at the caliber and the character, the content of the people you hire. The type of training you offer, is it adequate? Is it sufficient? Is it robust? For example, my department has been doing unconscious bias training for the (inaudible) possibly the last six or seven years. And for some, that's a case of first impression. I'd like to believe that we're on the cutting edge of best practices in that regard.
LEMON: So you've met with the -- with Tony Robinson's grandmother over the weekend. What do you say to a family grieving like this? And what do you say to the country about the entire situation?
KOVAL: It's not so much what I can say. It's so much of what I have to hear. I have to hear her pain, her sense of loss, her anger, her resentment, her mistrust. I have to hear that, because it's very real. It's very organic. And it's something that I don't ever want to get out of my head, because it tells me resoundingly how we need to do better. And the only thing I could say to her and it felt, oh so limiting, is how sorry I am for her, her family's loss of a young man whose life had just begun and had an awful lot of optional potential. He was a graduate, a successful athlete. He was looking to go to college, to pursue a business degree. He had siblings, he had family. He will be lost. He will be mourned, and a lot of untapped potential, never seen. So, I apologize on behalf of myself, on behalf of my department, and I only hope that, given some time, that the community and their family will see it in their heart of hearts to perhaps give us some measure of forgiveness and allow us the opportunity to show that we can and will do better.
LEMON: Chief Koval, thank you.
KOVAL: Thank you, Mr. Lemon. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.
LEMON: Was deadly force justified in this case? And is it the police chief right to apologize for all the facts and in the case are known. Plus, who is Bill Cosby talking to on the phone in his pajamas? We'll find out, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: An unarmed young black man shot to death by a white police officer, almost exactly seven months of the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, but the death of 19-year-old Tony Robinson is not a repeat of Ferguson. Robinson's uncle spoke to the press today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TURIN CARTER, UNCLE OF TEEN SHOT BY POLICE: He was a good, kind- hearted kid, who was very happy, and just wanted to be accepted and wanted to be loved, and that desire for love led him to bad places, but he was somebody who paid his debt to society, according to society and was actively trying to better himself.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So joining me now and talk about Wisconsin State Representative
Chris Taylor. The shooting occurred in her district, a mile and a half from her home. Also, David Klinger, he's a former police officer, best of criminology and the author of the book called, Into the Kill Zone. Representative Taylor, shooting happened in your district, very close to where you lived. Do you believe you heard the gunshot?
STATE REP. CHRIS TAYLOR (D), WISCONSIN: That's correct. I was actually across the street at the gas station, and pulled into the gas station, and saw a disturbance on the other side of the street, heard shouting and then saw people crouching behind their cars, and I hid in my car and shortly thereafter heard a popping and then sirens. I got out of my car, and unfortunately discovered that someone had been seriously injured. At that point we did not know if the person had been killed, but then saw really the aftermath of the shooting.
LEMON: I know that you were instrumental in passing legislation that there'll be independent investigations, following incidents like this.
TAYLOR: That's correct.
LEMON: So where do you stand on this particular issue?
TAYLOR: Well, I'm very grateful that we do have an independent process for an independent investigation. We had an officer-involved shooting just several blocks from this incident back in 2012, which led me to believe that the process need to be better, it needed to be fairer, and you needed to be more transparent. So in this current situation, with the very tragic death of Tony Robinson, I want to see that process...
LEMON: OK.
TAYLOR: Go into place. I want to see and give them a chance to do the independent investigation that the people want and that the law requires.
LEMON: David, did you get a chance to see the -- or hear a few interview that I did with the Madison police chief?
DAVID KLINGER, AUTHOR, INTO THE ZONE: Yes, I did. But first I want to comment on the previous episode do you have with these idiots from Sigma Epsilon, or whatever they are, that's appalling. I'm a university professor. I did -- gone about 22 years. I was a cop for three and a half. Those gentlemen and those women in Oklahoma need to be prosecuted to the full extent of whatever the student conduct code would permit. I'm appalled as a university professor to see students behave that way.
LEMON: Yeah.
KLINGER: Sorry, but I had to get that out there.
LEMON: I think we all agree with you about the -- at least not part of it. He proposes (ph) to apologize. I'm talking about the police chief of you know -- KLINGER: Right.
LEMON: For Tony Robinson's death. Do you think that was the right move?
KLINGER: I don't know. Because I don't know what happened. I think that if there's some indication that the officer's behavior was incorrect, that he used deadly force inappropriately or perhaps with a mistake of fact but would have been legally justified, then perhaps an apology is appropriate. On the other hand, if it turns out that the young man was attempting to harm someone or attempting to murder the police officer for example, then it would be inappropriate. It doesn't make sense to apologize for the actions of a police officer if he's operating within the four corners of the law and the department policy.
LEMON: He said to me, I think that anyone who wears a badge is also a social worker and I don't want to hire anyone who doesn't have that attitude. They are social workers with badges. Do you agree with his assessment of that? And how do you think his officers feel about that approach to law enforcement?
KLINGER: The notion that, that is a component of law enforcement is absolutely correct, and it always has been. Because police officers do all sorts of things for they are attempting to mollify people who are upset, that they can provide services to people who need them, put in touch with people who can provide mental health services, for example. But we also have to understand, that with the badge and the gun come authority. And so, social working -- or being a social worker is one component of being a police officer. It's not the entire role by any stretch of the imagination.
LEMON: Do you --
TAYLOR: Well, I totally disagree with that...
LEMON: Go ahead, representative.
TAYLOR: I mean, I totally disagree, I mean, I think our chief did absolutely the right thing. Regardless of what happened in the circumstance, which we do not know. Somebody lost a son. A grandmother lost a grandchild. There was huge loss, both for the community, for the family, and even the officer and the loved ones involved. So I think it was absolutely the right thing to do, to apologize. We all should feel sorry. We all should feel distressed by the situation, and it shows --
(CROSSTALK)
KLINGER: I disagree, ma'am. I disagree. Here's why I disagree. If someone tried to murder you, and I killed them to save your life, I would not apologize to the family or the person that I stopped from murdering you...
TAYLOR: Listen, this was --
KLINGER: And that's the difference.
TAYLOR: This was an unarmed. This was an unarmed 19-year-old, an unarmed 19-year-old.
KLINGER: But what if he was trying to rape you ma'am? What if he's in the process of strangling you?
TAYLOR: There is no...
KLINGER: Do you want me to let him worry (ph) you?
TAYLOR: Yeah. We'll see how --
KLINGER: We don't know the facts.
TAYLOR: We'll see --
KLINGER: Let's wait until we have the facts.
TAYLOR: We'll see how the facts do unfold, but I think...
KLINGER: Exactly.
TAYLOR: It was the right thing to do, in the wake of Ferguson, in the wake of other issues that have been present with this police department...
LEMON: OK.
TAYLOR: And other instances of using force.
LEMON: And representative...
TAYLOR: Perhaps, it shouldn't been used.
LEMON: And David, let's keep talking about this tomorrow and I'll invite you back, but we have to run. I think that you both have a point. I hate to say that, but I think you both have a point. Number one, we have to wait for all of the information to come out...
KLINGER: Absolutely.
LEMON: But it's a tragic loss anytime someone loses a loved one.
KLINGER: Absolutely.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
TAYLOR: Absolutely.
LEMON: When we come right back, rap mogul Suge Knight is accused of murder and the video has emerged which could play a huge role in his trial. See it next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Suge Knight says he is not guilty of a murder in a fatal hit
and run back on January 29th. The rap mogul was allegedly involved in an argument on the set of Straight Outta Compton, a film about the rap group NWA. The video tapped by the TMZ shows Knight in a red truck, backing up and knocking a man to the ground, and that's not the end of the incident. The video is graphic, we have to warn you.
Here's CNN's Kyung Lah.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The surveillance video obtained exclusively by TMZ appears to show a clear story. Rap mogul Suge Knight is driving this red truck, actor Cle Sloan runs up to Knight, you can see a there is some sort of confrontation. Suddenly, Knight backs up, striking Sloan. The red truck briefly disappears from the picture only to suddenly and violently run over Sloan again, then strikes 55-year-old Terry Carter. Sloan survives, Carter dies. Darcell Carraway was Carter's friend. Carraway believes the video clearly shows Knight killed Carter. Carraway said, Knight and Carter were friends. [corrected copy: Several weeks ago, I did a story for CNN Tonight the day that TMZ released a video of Suge Knight running over two men with his truck, killing one in a restaurant parking lot in Los Angeles. A crime for which he now faces murder charges. For the same segment I interviewed Darcell Carraway, a friend of Terry Carter, the man who died in the incident. During the interview, I said that Carraway believes that the video shows that Knight killed Carter. However, to be clear, Carraway had no opinion about whether Suge Knight's running over Carter and killing him was intentional or not.]
DARCELL CARRAWAY, VICTIM'S FRIEND: He didn't deserve that. I can say that.
LAH: But watch this video again. Defense Attorney Darren Kavinoky, who is not connected to the case, sees something else. Whose case is supported by this video?
DARREN KAVINOKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Both of them?
LAH: For the defense, this fight, it shows self-defense. Suge Knight appears to be under attack. Then after the hit and run, a bystander takes something from one of the victim's hand.
KAVINOKY: What is that thing? Because if you're defending Suge, if that thing is a gun, that opens us a whole world of story-telling possibilities.
LAH: But for the prosecution, this car driving past the scene --
KAVINOKY: That shows that, that was an easy path to get away and that that was a path that Suge Knight rejected.
LAH: Instead, plowing into two people. A brutal move by a troubled man, who remained held behind bars. Kyung Lah, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE) LEMON: Kyung, thank you very much. Joining me now, Mark Geragos defense attorney and CNN legal analyst. So, Mark, this is gonna come down to whether it was self-defense or not. He's -- he has been charged with a murder, right? Obviously, attempted murder. But he claims that he wasn't...
MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right.
LEMON: Trying to run over either man. He was trying to escape. His attorney says the video shows that he was attacked. What do you think?
GERAGOS: I'm telling you, I think this video is a key piece of evidence and it supports Suge. Remember, you have to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Everything that James Blatt, who was Suge's original attorney, was saying to the media right after this happened, seems to be supported by this video. And remember, everybody was saying there was no video originally, and this video...
LEMON: Yeah.
GERAGOS: Seems to support it. And it looks like it's favorable for the defense.
LEMON: OK - OK. It's because if you look at awhile the video was blurred, I would like to be able to see it. It looks like they have said all along, he was holding something. But why would Suge back up and then run over him?
GERAGOS: Well, I've had these cases before, couple of them in L.A., and the idea is, if you're getting attacked, you're trying to escape. So you're conceivably, what your defense is going to be is, I was trying to get out, I backed up, I couldn't back out, so I went forward, I didn't know that I hit somebody, I didn't know that I ran over somebody.
LEMON: OK.
GERAGOS: All of this, all of this, I think seems to support Suge's defense.
LEMON: OK. Let's turn now to Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the Boston bombing case. Today in court, there was new video of the bombing that was shown. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(Blast)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So do you see it there. It's unbelievable, right? A number of witnesses took to the stand today. Many of them, they were without limbs and they were explaining the horror of what they witnessed during that - you know, during that day and their current struggles. What do you think this is going to mean, this emotional testimony? How is that gonna play? GERAGOS: Well, look, if this case is not a, who done it, this case is,
he did it, because his own lawyer said that in the opening statement. So, the prosecution has got the kind of jury that they want, which is skews older, skews white, and they're hoping for a death penalty verdict in a jurisdiction that frankly has not imposed the death penalty in quite a while.
LEMON: OK.
GERAGOS: This is the kind of just absolutely heart-wrenching video evidence that makes it very difficult for the defense.
LEMON: Mark, very quickly, I have just really a few seconds left, I want to just show you this. This is Bill Cosby in a video, and he is talking to his fans. He's wearing pajamas. The video was accompanied by a short message. He said, dear fans, you know it goes on and he said it's wonderful, hope you come out, but he goes, hey, hey, hey, I'm far from finished. What do you -- we can show the video. But what will -- what would you make of this video? What is -- what's the message here?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: Do you really it was Virginia?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GERAGOS: Well, the message is --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Eight o'clock show --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We're listening, Mark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And you know I'll be the (inaudible)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mark, go ahead.
GERAGOS: I was just going to say, the message is, if you're Bill Cosby's lawyers, what they've done. Everybody says from a PR perspective, you don't want to do what he's been doing. From a legal perspective, his lawyers are playing it exactly right. He can't talk, he can't get into this...
LEMON: Alright.
GERAGOS: He's got nowhere to go. And these kinds of things are just devastating to him from a PR standpoint, but from a legal standpoint, there's no way that he can -- he can't engage, he can't... LEMON: I got to go.
GERAGOS: He can't, in the middle of this, because there's no way out.
LEMON: Thank you, Mark Geragos. Appreciate it. We'll be right back, everyone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Tonight's CNN Heroes recognizes a 14-year-old girl who is getting books into the hands of kids who need them the most. Meet Maria Keller.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA KELLER, CNN HEROES: I've always loved to read. It kind of takes you to different places. My mom told me when I was 8 that some kids don't have books and that shocked me because everybody should have the option to read. So I started by just doing a small book drive. And then told my parents that I want to collect and distribute 1 million books to kids in need, by the time I turned 18. So, welcome to the Read Indeed warehouse. I was 13 when I reached my goal. We've given books to about 16 countries and 40 states. All the pink squares... My new goal is to distribute books to every state in the U.S. and every country in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a preschool teacher with English language learners.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm looking for second through fifth grade.
KELLER: Me and the teachers -- it's amazing, because I hear all about the kids they serve.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have about 1280 students. A large homeless and highly mobile population. They're in great need.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Maria Keller came to my school, I was so excited. And she just gave us books for free, and it was amazing.
KELLER: Literacy is so important in education. I want kids to have a better life. I know that reading can do that.
LEMON: Nominations are open right now at cnnheroes.com.
That's it for us tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for watching. See you back here tomorrow.
"AC360" starts right now.
