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Don Lemon Tonight
Ferguson Police Chief Resigns; SAE Admits Chant Started Several Years Ago; Two Expelled by University of Oklahoma; Race Relations and Fraternities; California Jury Says "Blurred Lines" Ripped Off Marvin Gaye
Aired March 11, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon.
Some things never die like racism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FRAT MEMBERS: Hey, there will never be a nigger at SAE. There will never be a nigger at SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but it will never start with me. There will never be a nigger at SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That chant by Sigma Alpha Epsilon members is horrifying but should what you say get you kicked off campus even if what you say is ugly and racist? What is the price of free speech?
We're going to debate that tonight.
And what about free speech for the KKK? They're alive and they're recruiting in Selma, in Ferguson and beyond.
I'm going to talk a leader of the clan who says he is sickened that anybody was punished for that racist chant.
Plus Pharrell and Robin Thicke, got to give it up for ripping off Marvin Gaye.
(MUSIC)
Maybe they're going to that part. This is the part that got them. Tonight I'm going to talk to Gaye's former wife. It is a CNN primetime exclusive.
We're going to talk about all of that tonight. But I want to begin with the very latest news out of Ferguson, Missouri. Everybody knew that this day was coming, and today, Police Chief Thomas Jackson announced he is resigning.
Sara Sidner and I spent a lot of time in Ferguson last year and she joins me right now.
Can I read this note? Because we've been going back and forth with the mayor and good sources and he sent me this personal statement. He says, "I am encouraged by the final paragraph conclusion of the DOJ report. We agree that Ferguson can do the tough work to see this through and to merge the best small town it can be."
It is going to be tough work.
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure.
LEMON: Is this the first step, you think, in restoring the confidence between the police department and Ferguson? Can it be?
SIDNER: Yes, and no.
LEMON: Yes.
SIDNER: Yes, because people have been -- those who have been protesting have been out, and they -- this is the first thing they really asked for, right?
LEMON: Right.
SIDNER: They wanted to see punishment go towards Officer Darren Wilson who we have got to keep saying --
LEMON: Is exonerated, yes.
SIDNER: The DOJ said there were no charges, civil rights charges and the grand jury did not indict him. So that's not going to happen. And that's the way the law is and that's the way it should be. Two different groups have decided that he have been exonerated, but the police chief admits himself that mistakes were made after the shooting of Michael Brown, and perhaps before if you look at this DOJ report, and what it found when it looked at the department and how it was treating people of color, and the ticketing that it was doing.
LEMON: Will this appease people? You've been there for what? What, about four months you've been there?
SIDNER: Yes. It will appease people for about five minutes. Because I know and I've talked to some of those who have been constantly out there protesting, some of the reverends who have been out there, some of the other groups, the young people who have been out there, and what they've said is, this isn't enough.
LEMON: Right.
SIDNER: This is too little, too late, and we want more resignations, we want to see this department dissolved.
LEMON: They want it dissolved.
Listen, both of us have interviewed the chief.
SIDNER: Yes.
LEMON: This is -- this is my interview back in August then we'll play part of yours. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: People are calling for you to lose your job.
CHIEF THOMAS JACKSON, FERGUSON POLICE: I understand that.
LEMON: For you to be fired.
JACKSON: I understand that. Yes.
LEMON: What do you say?
JACKSON: I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay and see this through.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was back in August. And this just last week, it was a Thursday or Friday, when you -- last week. Here it is. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: Are you planning on resigning?
JACKSON: I will let you know.
SIDNER: Are you thinking about it?
JACKSON: I have told you that. I have told you that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So that was basically saying the same thing.
SIDNER: Right.
LEMON: That he planned on staying, but then saying I'll get back to you.
SIDNER: I'll get back to you. But we knew from a previous interview that I did somewhere in the early to late September where he said -- because I was there for many months, where he said, you know, I have considered resigning. I have considered that. But I am taking it day-to-day, and then eventually he said, no, I'm going to stay put and take care of this.
And I want to be fair here. There are people in the community who I've talked to who do not want him to resign, who did not want to see this happen and who want to keep that police department intact.
LEMON: Intact. Right.
SIDNER: There are people, and I don't want everybody to think the entire town is against the police department. There are those who are very frustrated with it, mostly African-American. There are some people who are Caucasian that are also frustrated, but there are some group of people who don't want to see it gone.
LEMON: When you meet him in person -- you've met him, right?
SIDNER: Yes.
LEMON: He's this affable guy.
SIDNER: He is.
LEMON: He seems like a nice enough guy but when you look at the report of the systematic things that have happened, it's tough to -- how do you -- how do you meld the two? How do you say, you know what?
SIDNER: Well, people can -- people could be very nice, but ultimately if the job they're doing is having a really big detrimental effect on the citizens that they are supposed to be serving.
LEMON: Right.
SIDNER: Then that's a huge problem. You can be nice in person all day long.
LEMON: Yes.
SIDNER: But if you are giving people trouble, trying to get money and revenue, and that's how you're trying --
LEMON: Yes.
SIDNER: To feed the base.
LEMON: The coffers of the city.
SIDNER: The coffer.
LEMON: You know what? We need to talk about this because it happens in a lot of cities with ticketing.
SIDNER: It does. It does.
LEMON: You know, get the tickets up. You see it during the holidays.
SIDNER: Right.
LEMON: They are doing it at the end of the year when you talk about -- maybe this is something we need to explore.
SIDNER: I think so.
LEMON: Nationwide. Who would want that job, though, as the Ferguson police chief after all that --
SIDNER: Well, someone is going to want it.
LEMON: Yes.
SIDNER: Because someone is going to feel like they can go in and they can make a difference.
LEMON: Make a difference. Yes.
Sara Sidner, great reporting, thank you very much for joining us here.
SIDNER: Thank you.
LEMON: And now I want to turn the outrage over to that racist chant. Our coverage over now to that racist chant brought on by members of the University of Oklahoma fraternity.
CNN's Miguel Marquez live for us right now in Oklahoma.
Miguel, good evening. SAE admitting that the song, its vile lyrics, has been chanted for years. What are you hearing about that?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a small disclaimer to that, it was an alumni association that looked into that here at the local chapter here at O.U. Specifically at the SAE chapter at O.U., saying that for the last three or four years, what they call a cancer had taken over that fraternity and they had not stopped it. They begged forgiveness, they asked for people to take a step back, and to realize that they understand the seriousness of this, and that they want to disassociate themselves from that racist chant.
But they do say that over the last three or four years what they call a horrible cancer was in this fraternity house. And it is now clearly excised as the fraternity has been completely shutdown -- Don.
LEMON: So, Miguel, we see the two -- the two young men who are leading this chant, but there's a group full of people, a bus full of people. Do you know if there are any other students who will be punished in connection with all of this?
MARQUEZ: It is very likely that we are going to be see more disciplinary action, perhaps more expulsions. The University of Oklahoma saying that its investigation is ongoing, and that it will continue to look into it. One wrinkle in all of this is that Friday begins the spring break here, so it may be delayed by a week while that -- while that holiday occurs, and then they'll pick up that investigation as students returned and they begin questioning them, and trying to figure out who exactly had what role on that bus -- Don.
LEMON: In Norman, Oklahoma, Miguel Marquez for us. Thank you, Miguel.
Jay Vinekar is a founding member of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter at the University of Oklahoma and he joins us now.
Good evening, sir.
JAY VINEKAR, FOUNDING MEMBER, SIGMA ALPHA EPSILON AT THE UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA: former Thanks, Don. Good evening.
LEMON: OK, so the O.U. SAE Board of Trustees says that the chant, and this is a quote, "is a horrible cancer entered into the O.U. chapter of SAE three to four years ago and was not immediately and totally stopped."
Did you know about this horrible cancer of a chant?
VINEKAR: Absolutely not. No. When I saw the video on Sunday, my heart sank. That had never been a part of our institution or our culture. The chant nor that type of behavior, those types of viewpoints were never a part of the house when I was in it.
LEMON: So it's interesting that, you know, if you're happy, you know, clap your hands, and copy written, you know, in 1971, and all of a sudden just two to three years ago that this entered? Do you know how it entered, from whom and why wasn't it stopped then?
VINEKAR: I don't -- I don't know. I am in contact with various alumni who are part of the investigation. I am hearing that it was -- they're trying to narrow down the source of that chant. And --
LEMON: The reason I ask is because, you know, in 1971, because this is done on "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands."
VINEKAR: Sure.
LEMON: You would think that if it was just entered three or four years ago, that it might be a modern song? That someone would pick from 1971, this seems like something that goes back a long time, not just from 2010, '11, or '12.
VINEKAR: Well, I think the -- a lot of fraternity songs, not just SAE, but across the Greek system, a lot of their songs, the lyrics might be changed, but they're adapted for existing tunes. So I don't know that that's -- that's something that is really impactful.
LEMON: OK.
VINEKAR: But I'm surprised by the tune. It's just that -- I think I was more shocked by the verbiage of it.
LEMON: The two students who were expelled, do you think the punishment fits the crime?
VINEKAR: That's a tough call. You know, they're 19-year-old children -- well, 19-year-old adults. They made a mistake. I am not going to excuse their mistake. It's not really for me to comment on whether the punishment is justified or if it's too severe. I don't know, but I do trust in the university's ability to make that decision based on their investigation.
So I do hope that these fellows at such a prime time in their life, just getting their life started, that they will overcome this and move forward and that they are not treated too severely as long as they accept the punishment and try to change their ways and their outlooks and their behavior.
LEMON: Well, they've had to come to a very harsh realization of what they've done and to understand what they have done.
VINEKAR: Yes.
LEMON: I want to go through this because this is not the first time. And I'm going to reel off a couple of times here. This isn't the first time SAE has been caught up in something like this, Jay. Just a few months ago, Clemson University SAE threw a party where its members dressed as gang members.
2013 Washington University in St. Louis, the chapter there was suspended for an incident involving pledges who allegedly sang racial slurs to black students. SAE was also suspended in 2007 at the University of Memphis over the harassment of a member who had a black girlfriend.
So I would ask you, does it have a race problem? It's obvious it has a race problem. What's going on? Why -- why is there so much racial -- why are there so many racial issues when it comes to the SAE?
VINEKAR: So, again, I don't know. I have been a part of the university -- of the fraternity since 1992 and I never experienced that type of racial hatred or ugliness. I originally pledged at Boston University which was an extremely diverse chapter and then I came back to the University of Oklahoma and was a founding member of that chapter. It was going through restructuring, and we built a house based on diversity and cultural awareness and social responsibility.
So if you look at the Greek system, I think every house has its own culture at every university even within their own fraternities, their national organizations. So those universities that you're listing have an ugly culture that they were using while representing the fraternity. I think that's deplorable.
LEMON: Yes.
VINEKAR: The chapter that we started at the University of Oklahoma in 1993 and chartered in 1995 never had that culture.
LEMON: Well, it does now, and here's what you have said. And I've got to run, but here's what you said. You said racism, elitism, hazing, these all seem to be more systemic than localized and the culture needs to change. It needs to be overhauled comprehensively and not just swept under the rug."
The Greek system as a whole, you think has an issue, yes or no?
VINEKAR: I think there -- I don't know if it's an issue across the board but it does exist, just like it might exist in any other institution.
LEMON: OK, Jay.
VINEKAR: Wherever it exists, it needs to be eradicated.
LEMON: Jay Vinekar, thank you. Appreciate your time.
VINEKAR: Thank you very much, Don. LEMON: We've got a lot more on this. When we come right back, did
the punishment fit the crime here or is free speech under fire in the wake of that racist chant?
Plus, we told you this story last night. The attempted kidnapping of a toddler caught on camera. But wait until you hear the end of this story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Legal questions need to be asked and answered in the wake of that racist chant.
Did the University of Oklahoma overstep it when it expelled two students?
I'm joined now by Robert Snibley, he's executive director of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education. Areva Martin, attorney and legal analyst. Also Joey Senat, associate professor at Oklahoma State University School of Media and Strategic Communications.
Good evening to all of you.
OK. So let's talk about these two Oklahoma students expelled for leading that racist chant. But was their punishment, was it justified or was it even legal?
Here's the chant uncensored.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FRAT MEMBERS: Hey, there will never be a nigger at SAE. There will never be a nigger at SAE. You can hang them from a tree, but it will never start with me. There will never be a nigger at SAE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I want to read to you, Robert, because I want you to respond to this. This is what the president of the university said in a letter to the students. He said that they were expelled for their, quote, "Leadership role in leading a racist and exclusionary chant which has created a hostile educational environment for others."
Racist speech. Hateful as it may be. Isn't it protected by the Constitution?
ROBERT SNIBLEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FOUNDATION FOR INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND EDUCATION: It is protected by the Constitution. And regardless of how offensive you or I or somebody else may find that speech, people have the ability and the right to express unpopular and even, you know, frankly, repugnant ideas on a college campus when it's a public college campus like the University of Oklahoma.
LEMON: Areva, do you want to respond? You want to listen to the president -- to what the president of the university said before you respond or you just want to do it now?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL ANALYST: No, I know what he said, Don, and I absolutely disagree with Robert.
Yes, you can engage in any kind of vile and negative -- you know, negative speech that you choose to, but not on a college campus. Federal Anti-Discrimination Laws make it very clear under Title VI you cannot create a hostile educational environment and that president had an affirmative duty to rid that campus of conduct that created such an environment.
LEMON: That's what he said. He said Section 6 of -- Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 provides that when you create a hostile learning environment that is a misuse of free speech. Professor?
MARTIN: Yes.
PROF. JOEY SENAT, OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDIA AND STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: Well -- well, actually the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights back in 2003 said that to violate its rules, which by the way it said must comply with the First Amendment that what must -- what would be harassment or hostile learning environment must be go beyond the mere expression of words and thoughts, symbols that are offensive, and I'll be the first person to tell you that what those students are saying is horrendous, it's repulsive.
LEMON: But --
SENAT: And if it's repulsing me, then I understand how other people feel.
LEMON: But do they have -- can they take legal action now against the university and the state?
SNIBLEY: They could if they want to.
SENAT: I believe they could --
(CROSSTALK)
SNIBLEY: Yes. The thing about Title VI is that Title VI does prohibit discrimination, but what these students are doing actually doesn't rise to the level of hostile environment harassment. There's a 1999 Supreme Court case called "Davis vs. Monroe County Board of Education" that sets forward that standard and it's a tough standard, and a single chant on a bus can't possibly rise to that standard.
LEMON: Go ahead, Areva.
MARTIN: We're not talking about a single chant on a bus. We've already heard African-Americans at this college come forward, Don, and talk about the racial isolation that they feel and the other discrimination that they feel on this campus. This president had to take action. The federal law is clear, I totally disagree with the other
correspondents or the other speakers tonight. The law is very clear. Students have a right to be --
(CROSSTALK)
SENAT: But the law is not clear.
SNIBLEY: But Areva, we're --
LEMON: Let her finish. Let her finish.
SENAT: The law is clear that they --
LEMON: And then, Professor Senat, you can respond.
MARTIN: Racial animus. Students have a right to be in a -- climate on a college campus that does not cause racial animus.
LEMON: OK.
MARTIN: And that chant, it is not the chant, it's the leadership of those students leading that chant.
LEMON: Professor Senat?
SENAT: Well, they are being suspended only for what they said on the bus. There is no evidence, there's no discussion that they committed any other sort of discriminatory act, and therefore they are being suspended or expelled for actually protective speech.
LEMON: But the chant -- doesn't include the N word --
MARTIN: The conduct.
LEMON: It doesn't just include the N word. Some might argue that it incites violence with the language. You can hang them from a tree --
SNIBLEY: It does not --
SENAT: Well, it doesn't --
MARTIN: Don, can I give another example?
LEMON: Yes, go ahead.
SNIBLEY: Well, before you do that.
MARTIN: I just want to give an example. If you --
LEMON: Hang on. Let -- Areva, let me hear from Robert first and then -- go ahead, Robert.
SNIBLEY: But before you do that, it doesn't incite violence. There's also a very specific standard for incitement. Incitement has to be incitement to immediate unlawful action. It can't be incitement to something that might happen sometime in the future which is the most you could say about this chant.
LEMON: Yes.
SNIBLEY: Again, I feel like people are taking the offensiveness of this chant and expanding it to somehow put on the people who are in this -- who are performing this chant all of the problems, all of the racial problems that might be --
LEMON: Areva is not buying it.
SNIBLEY: Taking place at O.U.
MARTIN: It's not the -- it's not the offensive language that they're being expelled for. It's the discriminatory conduct. If you are in a workplace and men were making sexist comments --
SNIBLEY: But it is. President Boren said --
MARTIN: But wait a minute, men were making sexist comments in a workplace that employee would have an absolute obligation to rid that work environment of that hostile work environment. That's the same standard that's applied to universities that receive federal funding under the Title VI.
SNIBLEY: It's not the same standard.
MARTIN: It absolutely is the same standard.
SNIBLEY: It's not the same standard.
MARTIN: That university -- let's face it.
SNIBLEY: There's a difference --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Professor Senat?
MARTIN: That university be free of a hostile environment for those students. How are black students supposed to go to that university and be subjected to that kind of language and perform?
LEMON: Go ahead, Professor.
MARTIN: And receive an education?
SNIBLEY: Here's the thing, they actually --
SENAT: Well, the university objected to that kind of language on the bus by these people. That isn't the claim that people are making. President Boren very specifically said that it is for what they said on the bus and that simply doesn't rise to that level. I understand --
LEMON: He said it was for their leadership role and what happened on the bus. Listen to this. (CROSSTALK)
SNIBLEY: Right. But that's the chant.
LEMON: Areva, especially, I want you to respond to this. According to Rush Limbaugh, Rush Limbaugh says that if Kanye West recorded the chant, it would be an instant hit. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, CONSERVATIVE RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: If this had been a song by Kim Kardashian's husband and then sung this song at the Grammy's, it'd be a hit. Can we agree with that? Well, I'm telling you this stuff gets awards and the people that sing it are portrayed as American royalty in terms of celebrity. You can't deny that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Areva, does he have a point?
MARTIN: They can sing that song at the Grammy's, they can sing that song out on the sidewalks in the public. But if white students sing that song on a bus at a public university, Title VI says the president has an obligation to rid that campus of that racial hostility, so that those students, those black students can be free to learn in the same way that white students are.
LEMON: Robert?
SNIBLEY: But you can't -- you can't cabin, you can't cabin the First Amendment. You can't say the First Amendment says that it doesn't apply when it's white students saying something. One of the things that unites us as a country is rule of law applies to everybody equally, and I understand the frustration that people feel, but that doesn't mean that we get to blame these students because they haven't actually --
MARTIN: It isn't just frustration, it's -- it's the conduct.
SENAT: The U.S. Supreme Court also said it's protected.
MARTIN: It's the conduct. The language is incidental to the conduct. The standard that's applied by the courts is different.
SENAT: No, there's been no precedent.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Professor Senat, I'll give you the last words.
SENAT: The U.S. Supreme Court has already said twice when it comes to public university campuses, they are not on place immune from the First Amendment, that it does protect offensive speech no matter how offensive to good taste. And you are now trying to equate their speech, which is what they were punished for, with conduct. And yes, if they have been involved in decision making at the fraternity, that was discriminatory then that would be a conduct. But --
MARTIN: They're the leaders of the fraternity to exclude African- American students.
SENAT: We are now having -- we now have a zero -- please let me finish.
They now have a zero tolerance policy at this university that was set unilaterally by the university president. And the question that my problem then also become that you have government stepping into the side now in the form of David Boren what speech gets into the marketplace of ideas.
LEMON: OK. All right. That's going to have to be the last word.
Thank you very much, Areva Martin, Joey Senat and Robert Snibley.
That racist song creating a crisis on universities and campuses, sparing debate about racism but some see it as an opportunity.
Up next a member of the KKK on how the clan is recruiting today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: These past few days we've heard a lot of people express outrage over the racist chant by that Oklahoma fraternity. My next guest has a very different perspective.
So joining me via Skype is James Moore. He's Imperial Kludd of the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
JAMES MOORE, IMPERIAL KLUDD OF THE LOYAL WHITE KNIGHTS: Thank you for joining us, Imperial Kludd.
Thanks for having me.
LEMON: So we had you on because you're using the events in Ferguson for recruiting, Selma as well. I'm wondering if you're going to take the same opportunity -- what's happening at Oklahoma. But what do you think of the national outrage in response to the Oklahoma University SAE fraternity chant?
MOORE: Well, I think there's a double standard. Black universities all across this country, fraternities and sororities and so forth. But we get singled out because we're white. We're not allowed to have anything exclusive for our people like the rest of them.
LEMON: So you mean the fraternity should be an inclusive place for white people?
MOORE: There's black fraternities.
LEMON: You understand there are black fraternities because blacks couldn't get in white fraternities?
MOORE: Well, I still can't get in black fraternities. LEMON: That's not true. I know white people who have are in black fraternities.
MOORE: Why can't we have our own? That's a double standard.
LEMON: The question is why do you want to?
MOORE: Because, we have the right to -- basically associate with (inaudible). We believe in the freedom of association, and people want to have on immigrate fraternities let them do it. But what's the crowd (ph) must want to have all white fraternities, just like there are all black fraternities. Blacks have the new Black Panther Party. The (inaudible), how can, we can't have things to stand up for interest of others.
LEMON: I think that you -- I think that you are a member f a white fraternity, right now...
MOORE: I am.
LEMON: I think when you are going into a university, part of the rules is that you, it's integrated university. There are no rules that say that this is a white fraternity.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And you are allowed to have a white fraternity, but KKK is one.
MOORE: Yeah, but what would happen is like just like what would happen in Oklahoma city, if we tried to have our own fraternity -- you know school campus. You know, this is the kind of stuff that happens. People shout, marks his words like racist, and you know bigot, and so forth, nobody pays attention to these all black colleges out here, it's Negro College Funds and so forth.
LEMON: Do you understand -- I mean, we move on, but you understand that the reason that there are black colleges in the United Negro College Fund is because of the history of racism that blacks cannot get into any other school, universities, so there's a reason for them.
MOORE: Well, they can get into it these days, while they are still around.
LEMON: OK.
MOORE: And for that question...
LEMON: People would ask, why white universities are still around, why is KKK is still around?
MOORE: There is no such thing as white universities than...
LEMON: OK.
MOORE: More integrate (ph).
LEMON: OK.
MOORE: No more freedom of association, that's a constitutional right...
LEMON: Has you --
MOORE: That's a God given right.
LEMON: Would you --
MOORE: Exodus 33:16, not people shall remain separate from all people upon the face of earth. Leviticus 21:14, thou shall take a woman of that own people or white. Do yourself are mixed so well -- will see what happens with you.
LEMON: Yeah, and it says that you know, man was created in God's image, so I think that I'm mixed, so I was created in God's image, God must be --
MOORE: Adam was created in God's image.
LEMON: So -- OK.
MOORE: Adam was the first man. Adam was the first white man. Talking about --
LEMON: Let's move on. You know about the bible. You know Adam was probably not white. So OK, so listen, let's move on.
MOORE: Adam was (inaudible)
LEMON: Would you become a member of the KKK --
MOORE: Don't try to cut me off. The American people want to hear what I have to say.
LEMON: I am not trying to cut you off. I just want to move on to different sides, because there are things that I need to talk about that are more important.
MOORE: Revelations (ph) do not. But to say the other two that are not --
LEMON: Alright. We are not here for a bible lesson, I am here to talk about -- so let's talk about you're a -- became a member of the KKK in your teens. What drew you to this organization?
MOORE: People like yourself that discriminate against me to say I could not stand up for my people. That I was a racist for being white. We get walked out to the classroom for bring white on all black school that I attended. I'm sick and tired of it and I'm not gonna watch (inaudible)
LEMON: What does your America, your version of America look like?
MOORE: Looks like a peaceful place that -- Revelations, do not stand, if you drop at synagogues that Satan (inaudible), no one's think, you don't sure that is safe now for our government, that control Hollywood to be. Entertainment --
LEMON: Alright. Alrighty. (ph)
MOORE: You don't want to hear it, but just did.
LEMON: No, I just don't -- you are not responding to the questions I asked you. What an America looks like. What your America looks like.
MOORE: That's it.
LEMON: And I was asking you about being anti-Semitic or about Jews or about anything likes that. Alright. Thank you, sir. Thank you Grand Kludd -- Imperial Kludd, excuse me, James Moore of the Loyal White Knights of the KKK, up next, if the KKK still relevant in America in 2015? My next guests have a lot to say about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: And we're back. On the one hand you have the University of Oklahoma expelling two students for the racist chant. On the other, the Klan is openly recruiting in Selma and Ferguson and beyond, which is the reason we had that last guest on to figure out why. So where are we when it comes to racist in this country? Joining me now, CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill, wow.
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICVAL COMMENTATOR: Hey, notice neither of us are broadcasting from our mom's basement tonight, Don.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: And I also will say this, you know when the government starts a program we always worry that it is never going to be finish. Couple of years ago, they said that they wanted to bring internet to everyone in America. I think it is official. They finally did it, so congratulations...
LEMON: Yeah.
FERGUSON: To that guy, we've got internet everywhere now.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Yeah. OK. So again, the reason because they are using this is an -- they are using this as a recruiting opportunity. It's sad when you have -- you know the 50th anniversary of bloody Sunday and then you have Klan fliers being passed out or being handed out. A candy being handed out in some places, are they desperate to seem relevant now, Ben Ferguson?
FERGUSON: Did you see where the guy was broadcasting from? When you are in your mom's basement wearing the earphones, yes, you are desperate...
LEMON: But the truth -- FERGUSON: There's no doubt in my mind.
LEMON: here's the truth...
FERGUSON: They are the most irrelevant group in 2015. I mean, these guys literally refer themselves as like the Grand Cyclops...
LEMON: Yeah.
FERGUSON: How bored do you have to be...
LEMON: But, Ben--
FERGUSON: To come up with special names for one another like this.
LEMON: Ben, I'm always honest to have to say Marc, before you get in here. We had him at a studio, the studio had an issue with who he was and what organization...
FERGUSON: Good.
LEMON: So they would not allow him in. That's why he was broadcasting (inaudible)
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good for them.
LEMON: Go ahead Marc...
FERGUSON: Good.
LEMON: Sorry to cut you off.
HILL: Well, I think it's perfectly reasonable to make fun of Klan, remember, and to talk about how irrelevant the Klan is, who joins the Klan in 2015, right? I get that, right. But at the same time, I don't want to marginalize that ideology to such an extent that we forget that a whole bunch of people believe this. That's what makes...
LEMON: Right.
HILL: The video tape...
LEMON: That is why we had him on. It's shocking that in this day in Asia this happens. I would rather, know what people like that are doing, instead of keeping them in the dark. Continue, Marc.
HILL: Exactly. Or needing a videotape on the bus to find out what they are really thinking, because that's the point, right? We like to frame this whole crisis of the last week, with an aura of unusualness. As if this is something that happen in this some outlier and a video tape to let us to know it. No, the truth is, just like with Eric garner, just like with the school bus thing. The video tape is give us access of something that black people that have been saying for a very long time. And these Klan members might be extremism until what they do in terms of anti-Semitism, in terms of anti-black racism. I read those flyers that they handed out in some. They were talking about immigration. They were talking about Obama not being from here...
FERGUSON: But Marc, here's the thing --
HILL: And they were talking about the truth of Dr. King. That's not something familiar.
LEMON: Yeah, and --
FERGUSON: But here's the thing. They are not --
LEMON: There are flyers, Ben...
FERGUSON: They are recruiting.
LEMON: Just as Ben is talking, we put the flyers up. Go ahead, Ben.
FERGUSON: Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. They are not really recruiting, they are trying to stay relevant and jump up and down wherever there is a camera, saying, hey, we are still here, I brought my aunts, uncles, cousins and sisters down, and we're gonna get on TV. To me, that's actually encouraging to know, that's how irrelevant they are, because you are not recruiting people in Ferguson, you're not gonna get me recruit at Selma. You are basically saying, I am going to be a media whore.
HILL: I don't know about that, Ben.
LEMON: Go ahead, Marc.
HILL: I don't know about that, Ben. Because, in Ferguson, we were down there, the Klan had rallies on the other side of the town. When things happen to black people...
FERGUSON: But this guy came in from out of states.
HILL: Black people respond. It galvanized the other side. But you listen to my point in --
FERGUSON: This guy came in from Virginia...
HILL: I'm not -- I'm not, Ben, I'm not saying the Klan is relevant. I'm saying the ideologies that they exposed are still somehow filter throughout the mainstream. There are a whole bunch of folks who are anti-Semantic. There are whole bunch of (inaudible) immigrants. There are whole bunch of -- who think Obama is not from here. All these types of narratives are filtered to the mainstream. I don't care about the Klan, I care about the fact that there are kids on the school bus in Oklahoma, who might share...
LEMON: You are making --
HILL: Some of their beliefs.
LEMON: I want you -- you are sort of making the point of my next question is. Do you think that there is a shift in -- because the Klan is extreme. Do you think there is a shift in racism in this country? It's obvious that the number -- are people in the Klan, that's declining. But it shift to --
HILL: Right.
LEMON: Where that -- it is hidden now. Your people are saying on buses rather than saying it in public. Ben and Marc, go ahead Marc.
FERGUSON: Yeah.
HILL: Well, I will go and say, I mean, not to talk to me...
FERGUSON: Anytime you have bigotry. Let me say this Don, anytime you have bigotry, and you have, you know, a world that we live in now with so much access to the media and cameras, and anything else. People are gonna be able to probably a little bit more cautious about where they say really stupid stuff, in places that they feel are safe. I don't think that means that it is growing, I think that it just shows you that people are being a little bit more introverted, there's always gonna be bigots. There always gonna be who hate black people, or white people, or Hispanic people, or Chinese people, anything else. But in the grand scheme of things, when there is enough people out there nowadays, that I think that shake their heads and idiots like the last guy, I think that means we are probably moving in the right direction and the worlds, it's not, you know...
HILL: No.
FERGUSON: We're not on it. This is not getting worse.
HILL: That's my issue, Ben. Again, I am not worried about the guy in his mom's basement in some town with Klan uniform worn. But it's not who makes it a long time ago. Some of them have traded in the sheets for police uniforms. Some of them have traded in the sheets for three- piece suits. Those kids on the bus who may or may not -- who I believe are racist. Those kids who are racist on that school bus are gonna -- going to become judges and doctors and...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And a policy makers and politicians. Bosses...
HILL: Yes. That's what scares me.
LEMON: Yeah.
HILL: When I'm going for a job interview, one of them -- when my kid goes in for a job interview, one of them maybe on the side -- the on other side of the desk, and I have don't know that they believe that stuff, but they still do. That's what scary. And that's why this video is so telling us, so chilling to us.
LEMON: Yeah. Ben, let's talk about the children -- the kids on the bus, which is, again...
FERGUSON: Sure.
LEMON: I think it is a very good point. If this is not just isolated, we say, oh, these kids, you know, they are acting up, or whatever they said something stupid. Many people who are in fraternities and sororities -- that is how they get the first job, right? And so they carry what they have learned from these universities, from what in these organizations, into the working world, once they become a member of Congress, a member of the Fortune 500 Company, a boss or a manager in the company. That is pretty frightening. That's the legacy of what happened in Oklahoma.
FERGUSON: Well, and I think there are also the legacy could be this. Everyone out there that thinks that this is appropriate, you are on notice, and you probably gonna get busted for it. I mean, this is probably gonna be one of the greatest teachable moments of reform in 2015 beyond. Every fraternity in America that has a brain, and every chapter that has a brain is going to sit down with the new recruits and with the president this week, I promise you, and say, we are never going to allow this to ever happen, and there is probably gonna be more, of an initiative now to bring in minorities into his -- and any...
LEMON: OK.
FERGUSON: You know any fraternity...
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Black or white or Hispanic...
LEMON: So we -- FERGUSON: So I think it could be used for good.
LEMON: Should these kids be expelled? Should we allow people to say this openly? Would that help? Because -- but here is what -- here is what Rush Limbaugh, let's listen to that.
HILL: Let me. Let me, let me respond to that.
LEMON: Go ahead, go ahead (inaudible)
HILL: Well, first Rush who said --
FERGUSON: You should say --
LEMON: And then you can respond.
HILL: We can say it first...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: If this had been a song by Kim Kardashian's husband and they had sung this song at the Grammy's, it'd be a hit. Can we agree with that? Well, I'm telling you this stuff gets awards and the people who have sing it are portrayed as American royalty, in terms of a celebrity, you can't deny that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Marc, are we just allowed everywhere, just let the kids say it, so that we know that it is there?
HILL: No, I don't think we should -- I don't think we should police people's speech. People should be able to say what they want. We should be able to have transparent ideas and circulating in this nation, but there should be consequences for speech. If you say something while you are walking down the street, that's your business. But if you create unhealthy and unsafe environment for other people, when you say things like that on college campus, that is something different, but let's be very clear, when we talked about changing the culture of fraternities, which are on white fraternities. All of sudden, everybody wants to be universal when white people do something wrong. Black fraternities don't do this. Black fraternities have always been welcoming. Black fraternities have always been open. Black --
LEMON: There are white people involved in fraternities...
FERGUSON: Marc, marc, marc, with all due respect...
LEMON: I know that there are white people fraternities.
HILL: Absolutely.
FERGUSON: But Marc, there are -- look, there are some African- Americans and white fraternities and there needs to be more of the mingling between the two. But if you don't think --
HILL: No, they don't.
FERGUSON: Let me finish, if you don't think that when I was in college, I promise you, it was not very welcoming to go into African- American fraternity houses with the college...
LEMON: Yeah.
FERGUSON: That I attended. There is a divide, let's not act like it is this one side.
HILL: That might because of you, you Ben.
LEMON: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Alright, listen.
FERGUSON: I am saying it's because --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Look, what have you in there, but it's because you're Ben Ferguson.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Alright. FERGUSON: Marc, Marc, Marc...
LEMON: I want to talk...
FERGUSON: It didn't recruit white guys.
LEMON: I want to talk --
(LAUGHTER)
HILL: That's it, black fraternities.
LEMON: That is a whole other show. That's a whole another show.
FERGUSON: OK.
LEMON: Let's talk Ferguson right now, because who would want this job as a police chief. And again, this are live pictures that you are looking at now by the way. This is in front of the Ferguson Police Department, and I just wanted to show you that obviously, there are folks that are gathering there, and you see police officers setting up a shield around the department. What do you guys make of the resignation today, is it enough? First Ben, and then, Marc. Quickly.
FERGUSON: I think it's a step in the right direction. I think that this was a long time coming. I think you got to have a whole new leadership role there and their people in leadership, and then they need bring in a whole lot of new cops...
LEMON: Marc?
FEGRUSON: To change it.
LEMON: Marc?
HILL: They need -- they need a leadership. This means to be happened months ago. But right now, the people need to select the next police chief. If we're gonna have police in communities, that's a whole of a conversation. They need to be community based on the community driven...
LEMON: Yeah.
HILL: The people of Ferguson must pick the next chief.
LEMON: I need to figure out what a name for your segment. Because I would -- I'd love to have you guys on every single night, great conversation. Thank you guys, appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Of the story that we first brought you last time. Remember the story in credible surveillance video from Washington State, the attempted kidnapping of 2-year-old Owen Wright, over the weekend. The toddler's older brother and sister chasing after the suspect screaming, and alerting two nearby teenagers who chased him until he put the child down and run away. We are learning now that a 15-year- old has been arrested. A photo montage was set up and one of the -- of Owen's siblings, positively identify the suspect. The suspect is a juvenile. He is not being publicly identified. You can (inaudible) to the story. Coming up, the mega hit Blurred Lines, well the rip-off of a Marvin Gaye classic. The late sole singer's wife, Jan Gaye, joins me now at the Primetime Exclusive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams, apparently didn't blurred the line, they crossed it. Their song Blurred Lines ripped off the Marvin Gaye sole classic, Got to Give it Up, that's according to a California jury, which ordered them to pay more than $7.3 million for copyright infringement. Joining me now in the CNN Primetime Exclusive is Jan Gaye, former wife of Marvin Gaye and the mother of his children. Also, Richard Busch, attorney for Marvin Gaye's family. How are you doing tonight? How are you guys doing?
JAN GAYE, FORMER WIFE OF MARVIN GAYE: We're both doing very well.
RICHARD BUSCH, ATTORNEY OF MARVIN'S GAYE FAMILY: Incredible.
LEMON: OK. I'm glad that --
J. GAYE: Doing well.
LEMON: I'm glad that you are here. First, I want to play the two songs back-to-back. Here they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARVIN GAYE, SINGER: Because I was too nervous, to really get down.
ROBIN THICKE, SINGER: Maybe I'm going deaf. Maybe I'm going blind. Maybe I'm out of my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So Jan, I know that you sing back up. When you first -- when I first heard this song, I remember being in the car with the group of people saying, oh, my gosh. They redid Got to Give It Up and...
J.GAYE: Right.
LEMON: Now this. Did you immediately recognize the song? The similarity?
J. GAYE: Absolutely, didn't take more than a minute to hear the similarities.
LEMON: So why do you think --
J. GAYE: Having been in the studio -- well, having been in the studio and having sung the song and having my children grow up listening to it, I knew it immediately. LEMON: Yes. $7.3 million the jury awarded you in damages, the family
in damages. Are you pleased with the verdict?
J.GAYE: Absolutely. It could -- I don't think that we could be any happier -- I really don't.
LEMON: And you know, it was a huge hit for Pharrell Williams and for Robin Thicke, how -- how did you feel knowing that this infringed on Marvin's song. Because I mean, Marvin is an icon, and he is beloved by so many people. I think it really upset a lot of people beyond the family.
J. GAYE: I think it did upset a lot of Marvin purist, and beyond that. People that just loved Marvin's music generally speaking, and to have Mr. Williams and Mr. Thicke deny that there was no copying done, that there was no sampling done, that there was no similarity, but then to hear stories change, it was very -- it got depressing, it was -- I thought that it was disrespectful and I know if Marvin were alive, he wouldn't have stood for it.
LEMON: Yeah. I would -- can I read the statement to you, and this is - this from Pharrell from Robin Thicke and from T.I. they issued the statement that says, "While we respect the judicial process, we are extremely disappointed in the ruling made today, which sets a horrible precedent for music and creativity going forward." Williams, Thicke and T.I. said this in the joint (ph) he said, "Blurred Lines was created from the heart and minds of Pharrell, Robin and T.I. and not taken from anyone or anywhere else. We are reviewing the decision, considering our options and you will hear more from us soon about this matter." Richard, do they have an appeal? Anything to appeal here?
BUSCH: I don't think so. They were able to obtain every evidentiary ruling they wanted to obtain. We fought this case with one arm tied behind our back, really one and a half arms behind our back. This was a copyright infringement case where they claimed innocence, but at the same time, they fought tooth and nail to prevent us from actually playing Got to Give It Up in the courtroom. We had to play the excerpts of Got to Give It Up and compare those excerpts to Blurred Lines. And even with that, even with that arm behind our back, we were able to prove the jury that it was a taking of the composition Got to Give It Up. It was not the taking of the genre. It was not the taking of the era. It was not the taking of the groove or a feeling, which is their argument. We had terrific musicologists, Judith Finell and Ingrid Monson, they dissected the songs, they broke it down, they showed note to a copied, vocal melodies were copied, baseline and keyboard, structure of the song...
LEMON: Yeah.
BUSCH: It was a copyright infringement.
LEMON: I don't understand, here, a number of people in the music industry who were concerns saying, oh my, gosh, this was an, oh, this was (inaudible) this was an (inaudible) to Marvin Gaye. I don't want to speak for you Jan, but I don't think you would have an issue with it. They licensed it. I think you would have been really have about it.
J. GAYE: Well, that's the difference between infringement and -- infringing and not infringing. Had they sample it properly or licensed it properly. Had they come to the family and said, this is what we want to do...
LEMON: Yeah.
J. GAYE: Much like what Eric Sermon did the song Music...
LEMON: Yeah.
J. GAYE: He came to the family first...
LEMON: Yeah. I got to go...
J. GAYE: With respect for Marvin and for the family. And had the number with it, and we love Eric to this day.
LEMON: Well, we love Marvin Gaye.
J. GAYE: And have a great man a respect.
LEMON: We love Marvin Gaye and we love that you came here tonight. Thank you very much, Jan Gaye and Richard Busch. Best of luck to you, OK?
BUSCH: Thank you.
J. GAYE: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Thank you. We'll be right back.
J. GAYE: Thanks for inviting us.
LEMON: Of course.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: What a show. Thanks for watching.
"AC360" starts right now.
