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Don Lemon Tonight
The Fight for Freedom; Trevor Noah's Controversial Comedy; Cell Phone Video Shows Last Moments of Germanwings Flight; How is Suicide Prosecuted? Aired 10-11p ET
Aired March 31, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:16] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Don Lemon.
We talk a lot on this show about what you can say, what you can believe and who decides. And tonight, the fight for freedom is spreading across this country, but whose freedom?
In the wake of Indiana's controversial religious freedom law which the governor reluctantly promises to fix. There is a similar law on the desk of Arkansas' governor right now. And the backlash is spreading.
Whatever happened to liberty and justice for all?
And that didn't take long. Most Americans have barely heard of Jon Stewart's replacement Trevor Noah and he's already in hot water. The jokes that some say are offensive. But did he cross a line? Or are some people taking comedy way too seriously?
We've got a lot to get to tonight but I want to begin in Indiana. Governor Mike Pence promised today that discrimination against gays and lesbians won't be allowed under his state's controversial Religious Freedom Law.
And CNN's Miguel Marquez is live for us tonight in Indianapolis.
Good evening, Miguel. The governor flip-flopped basically on fixing the law. What did he say today?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He said, look, he doesn't think that the law as that he signed in private discriminated against gays and lesbians, all that said he wants a fix to it. He said one thing, the question is, what is that fix. He said that he will not sign something that includes protections for gays and lesbians in the civil rights charter for the state, but he will accept something different. What it will be we don't know.
I did ask him during his press conference about his personal views on businesses with religious beliefs and whether or not they should be -- should have to provide services to gays and lesbians who are getting married, here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I don't support discrimination against anyone. The question that you pose, though, I believe, it's we are dealing here in a free society with always a careful balancing of interests, and the facts and circumstances of each case determine the outcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARQUEZ: And this is the concern that a lot of conservatives have over religious freedoms versus gay marriages as the two issues as sort of the come up against each other, and like many, the governor today sort of saying he wants it both ways that businesses should be allowed basically to choose their own customers, but that it is something that this bill clearly has attracted a lot of controversy.
LEMON: He didn't say, Miguel, in that press conference what the fix will be, he hasn't said yet, but he did blame the media for a number -- he did it a number of times, smearing -- he said they smear the law and the state of Indiana. What's the reaction been like to that?
MARQUEZ: There was a very interesting moment in the press conference when one of the local reporters asked the governor to call out the names, tell us who it was that you are upset with in the media who did this, and he said, well, there were -- it's not you in the Indiana press, it was some of the folks out there in the national press. She pressed him, saying, you know, tell us who it was, and he would not go there.
I think that they are -- they feel like this was Twitter firestorms, that it was bloggers, that it was basically activists from the left that created all of this, and if it wasn't for that, everything would just be fine -- Don.
LEMON: Miguel, tonight, there is another state that is one step closer to passing a law similar to Indiana's. Where do they stand?
MARQUEZ: That is Arkansas, and the House has now passed a amended version of the Senate version of a law that is very similar to what is in Indiana right now, not entirely an exact copy, but it is similar enough that it is broad enough that there are concerns that businesses that have deeply held religious beliefs could deny gay couples. If they come for floral arrangements or bakers, to bake a cake or for photographers, for especially gay weddings.
The governor there in Arkansas has said as soon as it is on his desk, he will sign it, and we expect he will have an answer on whether he will sign it for sure tomorrow -- Don.
LEMON: Live from Indianapolis, Miguel Marquez. Thank you, Miguel.
Let's talk about this now. The Right Reverend Gene Robinson, the first openly gay Episcopal bishop and a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress joins us. Also Mark Rienzi, the senior counsel for the Becket Fund, is here with us this evening.
Good evening, gentlemen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good evening. LEMON: Bishop Robinson, to you first. This issue really gets to the
heart really of what it means to be a religious person and a Christian, doesn't it?
REV. BISHOP GENE ROBINSON, RETIRED IX EPISCOPAL BISHOP OF NEW HAMPTON: It does, but let's look at the wider context here. Going back to your opening. This is about whether liberty and justice for all will really be for all. And we all cherish religious freedom in this country, but what I think has happened is that religious conservatives know they have lost the gay marriage battle, and they are unhappy with the increasing acceptance of LGBT people here in this country.
[22:05:23] And so they are using these RFRA laws to try to exempt themselves from the anti-discrimination laws that are cropping up also around the country. And our treatment of one another is always a religious issue. And treatment with respect is something that every religion stands for, and so any form of discrimination, it flies in the face of that.
LEMON: OK. All right. But I have to tell you what the governor says. He said this legislation is not to refuse anyone -- to be allowed to refuse anyone to get a service. I won't discriminate against gays and lesbians, obviously you don't think that is the case.
I want both of you gentlemen to listen to this., This is CNN's Poppy Harlow. She got an interview with Warren Buffett tonight. I want you to listen to what he says about this Indiana law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The governor of Indiana Mike Pence has said this week that he will fix the law, that he will move to make sure that it does not discriminate against anyone. However, when he was asked over the weekend whether he would add sexual orientation, be in favor of adding sexual orientation as a protected class in the state of Indiana he said that that is not something that he is working towards right now.
What should be done to fix this?
WARREN BUFFETT, BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY: Well, that sounds suspicious. Well, I think if people can exercise discrimination based on sexual orientation, then it's wrong. And I don't know how the law reads exactly, so I don't know what words you would change, but when you get all through it, when the dust settles, if you can read the law, and you can discriminate against people based on sexual orientation, I would -- I would say that somebody better do something about it.
HARLOW: Do you think sexual orientation should be added as a protected class in the state of Indiana?
BUFFETT: Well, I think -- I think generally, yes. The answer is I think they are entitled to equal rights and equal acceptance, and 100 percent in the eyes of the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Mark, Warren Buffett, powerful man, when he speaks people listen. Does he have it wrong?
MARK RIENZI, SENIOR COUNSEL FOR THE BUCKET FUND: Sure. Here's what he has wrong, and I agree with the bishop that discrimination is a bad thing and that everyone should be treated with respect. The problem is that we have 20 plus years of experience with RFRA laws, and we know what they do and we know what they don't do. They've actually never been used to protect discrimination against gay people. They've been used to protect Native American, for example, from being imprisoned --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Then why not write it into the law? Why not include the language?
RIENZI: Well, I don't think there'd be anything particularly wrong with including the language in the law. But I think there's something very wrong with attack on the ideas of religious freedom protection broadly when that -- those laws protect people like the Little Sisters of the Poor from being shut down by the federal government because they won't give out contraception.
LEMON: So I don't think anyone would have an issue with it if there was that language.
(CROSSTALK)
RIENZI: Well, terrific, Don. If you can --
LEMON: I don't think because it's in a number of states. It's not exactly the same because in Indiana there's no law that protects gays and lesbians as a protected class.
RIENZI: Well, it is in the same in that this is the law at the federal level and in 20-plus states, and it's never, ever been used in the way that the critics are claiming it's going to be used.
LEMON: So what needed to be protected then?
RIENZI: So it is a fake firestorm. I'm sorry?
LEMON: What needed to be protected?
RIENZI: What needed to be protected is the same thing that the federal government protects, and that the other states protect, which is the right of people to follow their religion, without being crushed by the federal government whether put in prison or expelled from school, or a woman in Kansas actually died because the government wouldn't let her go get a liver transplant because it went with her Jehovah's Witness beliefs.
So it's the right of people to practice their religion without the government crushing them for their differences. Again, it's never been used in the way that the critics are saying to authorize discrimination against gay people. The only case that came even close is the photographer who said I can't take pictures at the gay wedding, but she lost her claim. She lost it under a RFRA law and under the First Amendment.
So this is not going to be open season for discrimination. What it is going to do is continue to protect religious minorities, and I'll be delighted, Don, if the -- if the critics of the law take the same position you do, which is as long as it's clear that the businesses won't be discriminating against gay people, they're fine with the RFRA, that's great. RFRA has never done that. RFRA does a lot of other great things. We got 20-plus years of history of that. But it doesn't do the things that critics claim.
LEMON: Bishop, I'm very interested in getting your response, but we're going to have to do that after the break. Stay with me. We are not done talking about this. When we come right back, will the battle over religious freedom laws be a big issue in the race for the White House race.
And the outrage over, of all things, jokes. Some people say the new host of the "Daily Show" crossed the line with offensive tweets. What's funny and who gets to decide.
[22:09:49]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Indiana's Governor Mike Pence is taking a lot of heat for signing the Religious Freedom Law, and one of his fiercest critics, the governor of Connecticut. His state vowing not to do business with Indiana. We'll talk about that in just a moment. But back with me now, retired Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson and also attorney Mark Rienzi.
So before the break, Bishop, Mark was saying that this is not -- this legislation is not going to be used to discriminate against gays and lesbians, but Indiana does not have a law on the books that protects gays and lesbian. But it does have one that protects minorities and it protects women. If it did that, if it put a law on the book protect gays and lesbians, is that the fix?
ROBINSON: If it were added and in a civil rights way for lesbians and gays, bisexual and transgendered people, absolutely. But what we are left with right now is a law that is actually not like all the other RFRAs and certainly not like the federal RFRA that was passed in 1993.
Mr. Rienzi is absolutely correct. The cases that have come before have been government infringement on people's religious freedom. But what this law does is open it up to companies, not just closely held companies like Hobby Lobby, but companies and businesses as well as individuals. And this is something that very, very new. And I think it's where conservatives would like to see the Hobby Lobby case go right down to one person against one person.
[22:15:00] And so we need these protections for LGBT people in place, and I just don't understand why Governor Pence could not answer the yes or no question about whether that should stop in Indiana.
LEMON: OK. I want you gentlemen to take a look at a picture of Governor Pence signing this bill. There are three openly anti-gay supporters standing there with him. OK. Micah Clark, the executive director of the American Family Association, believes homosexuality is a treatable disorder, objected to lesbian high school student wearing a tuxedo to prom, believes it sends destructive message to students.
Eric Miller is the executive director of Advance America, says allowing gay marriage to be acceptable and normal is just not right, distributed fear flyers, falsely claiming pastors could be arrested for preaching against homosexuality. And then there is Curt Smith, president of the Indiana Family Institute. He equates homosexuality to bestiality and adultery.
Here's what Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy said about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. DANNEL MALLOY (D), CONNECTICUT: Republicans muscled this through. They thought it was a great idea. They were patting themselves on the back saying how wonderful this was, that they could get this done. He announced days before that he would sign it. He had a ceremony signing it. He invited three homophobic men who have -- gone out of their way to make gay people in Indiana miserable to the ceremony.
That's what they did. You can't defend it. It's undefensible. If they don't solve this problem, then companies and associations need to move out of the state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. Mark, so can you really say that the motivation for this law, at least in part, to give people an excuse not to serve the LGBT community?
RIENZI: No. RFRA laws again have never used to do that. I'm sure people have all manner of beliefs about religion and sex in America. There's a lot of diversity.
LEMON: So those three people standing behind him just happened to be there? It's just coincidence?
RIENZI: No, they are who they are, and they believe what they believe. The point is that the law that was passed is the same one that Bill Clinton signed and ACLU supported. And President Obama signed in Illinois.
LEMON: I understand that. But let me tell you about that. Let me tell you how I feel about that. Saying that Bill Clinton and Barack Obama signed similar legislation or supported similar legislation has become a talking point.
RIENZI: It is true, though.
LEMON: Hang on. It still does not make it right even if they signed similar legislation.
RIENZI: No, because --
LEMON: So if I had them here, and I was interviewing them, I would ask them why they signed it, and if they indeed do support it now. That's beside the point.
(CROSSTALK)
RIENZI: Well --
LEMON: Still does not make it right, so in this instance --
RIENZI: If they want to run -- if they want to back away --
LEMON: And you accurately say -- hang on.
RIENZI: -- from civil rights legislation where they don't like --
LEMON: Can you accurately say with those three gentlemen in your estimation who just happened to be standing behind him that this was not meant to discriminate against gay and lesbian people?
RIENZI: I can say it 100 percent, Don, because we've got 20-plus years of experience under the law, and it just doesn't do it. So the claim from the other side is we need to strip real people of actual protection, people like Native Americans who'd be in prisons without RFRAs, people like the Little Sisters of the Poor who'd be crushed with government fines without RFRAs, people like Native American schoolgirl who get expelled without RFRAs.
The claim is we need to strip all of those people real protection because of a claim about a type of discrimination that has not never ever been supported under RFRA. It's really shameful. We shouldn't take away people's rights like that.
LEMON: Bishop, I'll give you the last word.
ROBINSON: I couldn't agree more that we shouldn't take away those rights from those people, what I do believe is that when you open up a business to the public, you serve all the public. If you don't want to serve all the public, then you should do something else with your life. And that's what this law threatens. And this is a different law and it takes us further than even the Supreme Court wanted to go in the Hobby Lobby, but it takes us where those people surrounding the governor at the signing would like to see it go. And that is the big dangerous signal. And they can solve it by adding the non- discrimination language for LGBT people in that legislation.
LEMON: Bishop, Mark, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
RIENZI: Thank you, Don.
ROBINSON: Thank you.
LEMON: When we come right back, the uproar over the new "Daily Show" host. We all know comedy isn't pretty but some say Trevor Noah went too far, way too far with his jokes. Are we taking funny business too seriously?
[22:19:15]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Trevor Noah, Trevor Noah. Remember that name, now instantly famous only one day after being named the new host of the "Daily Show." The young comedian from South Africa is being criticized over jokes that some call sexist and anti-Semitic.
Here's CNN's Sara Sidner.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA SIGNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Trevor Noah has only been on the "Daily Show" three times.
JON STEWART, HOST, "DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART": We're always excited on the show to find new talented voices that can contribute to our program, so we are very pleased to welcome our newest contributor from South Africa, Mr. Trevor Noah.
SIDNER: But within 24 hours of the announcement that Noah is the next "Daily Show" host, he's gone from comedy darling to demonized for some of his old jokes on Twitter.
May 2014, "Behind every successful rap billionaire is double as a rich Jewish man," hashtag "Beats By Dreidel." In 2009, "Almost bumped a Jewish kid crossing the road. He didn't look before crossing but I still would have felt bad in my German car." And in 2011, "Oh yes, the weekend. People are going to get drunk and think that I'm sexy, signed Fat Chicks everywhere."
LIZ SHANNON MILLER, INDIEWIRE: The fat chicks of the world don't need to be -- don't need to be reminded that they're seen as less --seen as inferior to not fat chicks. That kind of -- that kind of humor doesn't necessarily play in the "Daily Show" context.
SIDNER: Thus, the Twitter firestorm. New "Daily Show" host Trevor Noah is callous Jew basher on Twitter. The Anti-Defamation League chimed in as well wishing Noah success, but adding in part, "We hope he will not cross the line from legitimate satire into offensiveness with jokes calling up with anti-Semitic stereotypes and misogyny. Some media critics pounced saying Trevor Noah is on the wrong side of the line between funny and offensive.
[22:25:04] MILLER: Honestly I was more offended by how the jokes weren't that good.
SIDNER: But he has plenty of supporters who enjoy roasting the media. @Scotteweinberg tweet, "Morons dig through comedian at Trevor Noah's back tweets, discover lots of jokes, what a scandal, and CNN is on it."
One critic says Noah's biggest problem, most Americans just don't know who he is.
HOWARD BRAGMAN, REPUTATION.COM: This guy 24 hours ago was a relatively unknown guy in the United States. He's only been on Jon Stewart's show three times, and now he's going to be heading really the flagship show for Comedy Central, and you can expect a great of scrutiny.
SIDNER: Comedy Central is standing by their man saying Trevor is a talented comedian with a bright future.
Trevor Noah, himself, tweeted, "To reduce my views to a handful of jokes that didn't land is not a true reflection of my character, nor my evolution as a comedian."
Welcome to America, Trevor, where the biggest sin is not being funny. The good news, even Jon Stewart bounced back from "Death to Smoochy."
Sara Sidner, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: By the way, I predicted that response from him. It's about evolving as a comedian. But I want to talk about this with Artie Lange, comedian and a bestselling author who hosts "Artie Quitter.com" and then John Fugelsang, an actor and comedian, better get my lips -- they join me exclusively tonight. Big fan of both of you.
ARTIE LANGE, COMEDIAN, BESTSELLING AUTHOR: Thanks, man. Big fan of yours.
LEMON: What do you think of this, Artie? I mean, the guy --
LANGE: Well --
LEMON: He barely even has a job. I'm not sure the ink is dry on the contract.
LANGE: Yes.
LEMON: Or he's even finished signing.
LANGE: Well, welcome to the machine, baby. It's welcome to the world now. You know, my favorite comedians of all time are dangerous. I like when a comic is a dangerous. and you don't know what they are going to be saying, and the guys that are dangerous. Like you know what's going to come out of their mouth. Richard Pryor was dangerous. George Collin was dangerous.
This guy looks like an underwear model, and he's edge. I'm happy -- you know, did someone that's; a little edgy and crazy. I don't think the jokes were particularly that funny. Some of them were kind of old jokes. Me and John were talking about it.
(CROSSTALK) FUGELSANG: And some of those from junior high school.
LANGE: Yes.
LEMON: But that's the thing. Like if you think if it was funny, remember the whole thing that happened with E!
JOHN FUGELSANG, ACTOR AND COMEDIAN: Right.
LEMON: Sometimes it's who says it, right?
FUGELSANG: Sure.
LEMON: Because if Joan Rivers said something, everyone would laugh and go, oh that's just Joan Rivers, but if Giuliana Rancic says it, even though it's written for her, there's an outrage.
LANGE: Don Rickles are like that. So he gets away with a lot of stuff. And you read it on paper, out of contact, it looks like the most offensive thing ever. But I mean, I officially support Trevor Noah.
LEMON: OK.
LANGE: I think he should get the job and he'll get out of this controversy, and it'll be fine.
LEMON: Do you think that this -- and maybe it's social media driven, I find now that, John, people are outraged for just the sake of being outraged.
FUGELSANG: Well, you're right. Our the national addiction is umbrage and we can't get enough of it. And everyone out there loves to be offended especially on social media. It's one of the few things that unite conservatives and progressives in our culture. We'd love to be outrage. These jokes would not have been as outrageous if someone like I already said that we all knew would say it. If Howard had said it, if Carlin had said it, it would have been a punchline, not as funny because we don't know Trevor Noah yet. People are willing to judge his entire career and everything he's ever done based on a few old jokes. If that's the case, every comedian should get the chair.
LEMON: You know a couple of folks over at Comedy Central, why -- and some inside info, I'm sure. Why did they choose a relatively unknown for this flagship franchise?
FUGELSANG: Well, I can't actually say why he was chosen. He's a very funny guy and I wish him well on the show, but I do think a lot of folks don't realize the kind of grind it takes to do a 10-hour a day show. You get a national headliner, someone like a Chris Rock who'd be great in that role but Chris Rock make a movie, he's not going to go give 12 hours a day to it.
A lot of us would have loved this -- I would have loved to Louis Black get it. But I'm very happy for this guy and I know that this thing is going to be forgotten because just like we love the outrage, we also have the attention span of the guy from "Memento" and we'll be on toward the next outrage.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And full outrage.
FUGELSANG: Yes.
LEMON: It's amazing, because sometimes you will say something about someone or to someone, and they are not offended, but then you have this (INAUDIBLE), so hard to offend comedians.
LANGE: Everybody has a community.
LEMON: Yes.
LANGE: I mean, there is this whole communities now. Jamie Foxx just got in trouble with the Trans Operative community. Where are these communities from? I mean, the last community you can make fun of are fat guys, and because no one gets offended at that. Like --
(CROSSTALK)
FUGELSANG: I think some Muslims might disagree with that.
(LAUGHTER)
LANGE: There's a guy who calls Obese Witherspoon on Twitter. And you get a bunch of laughs, but should I get the fat community together to protest this guy? No, because I am not offended. I don't care. I got better stuff to do.
LEMON: Do you think what Jamie Foxx said was offensive? I -- honestly I laughed at the joke.
LANGE: Yes.
LEMON: And I had trans friends and --
LANGE: Listen, we're comics. The guy who won the decathlon in 1976 is becoming a broad. If we can't --
FUGELSANG: And he's a hero. And he's a hero. Bruce Jenner doing that is now a hero and there's trans kids that won't commit suicide because they see Bruce Jenner doing it and he's known to these kids from being on a horrible reality show where he's abused by Kardashians. It's a story of survival.
LEMON: Yes.
FUGELSANG: In the case of Jamie Foxx, he wasn't down people, he was making jokes about a celebrity.
LEMON: And if one -
FUGELSANG: If you want to be offended by that, they're easy, too.
LANGE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: In a weird way that -- I mean, maybe in time that'll normalize because then everyone is fair game.
LANGE: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN FUGELSANG, ACTOR AND COMEDIAN: Have you ever hung out with transgender people? They make fun of each other all of the time.
LEMON: I'll hang with the transgender person on -- Saturday night.
FUGELSANG: You and me, both.
LEMON: Yeah. So there you go.
LANGE: Bush out of make it skeptical.
LEMON: No. I'm serious, it did.
LANGE: Bush out make it skeptical by selling it to a TV network.
LEMON: Yeah.
LANGE: He's not trying to do it...
FUGELSANG: Exactly.
LANGE: On the download. He's like, look, I'm trying to make out of this. And that's not a 400 pound gorilla in the room, the gorilla on fire.
FUGELSANG: Jamie Foxx wasn't being a mean to produce gender.
LANGE: Yeah, I mean --
FUGELSANG: He' making jokes about the celebrity.
LEMON: OK.
LANGE: If the comic is not allowed to comment on that story, then what are we even doing this for? We're just going to continue making jokes about airports? I mean --
LEMON: All right. Let's get back to Trevor. We seem gone off to Jamie Foxx and all that. I want to go - he was on your show and - let's watch, let's watch, here's a clip with him on your show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TREVOR NOAH, COMEDIAN: Some of the classiest racism that I ever came across in America was in Lexington, Kentucky.
LANGE: OK.
NOAH: That was -- it was, it was, beautiful racism.
(LAUGHTER)
NOAH: Charming -- no. That was a charming racism.
(LAUGHTER)
LANGE: Well, they perfected it down there.
NOAH: They --
LANGE: Perhaps.
NOHA: They said the most amazing things and you know --
LANGE: That's the -- the Ku Klux Klan are in silk contour sheets down there.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He is talking race there.
LANGE: Right.
LEMON: Should people -- what do you say? In Arkansas?
LANGE: Yeah. He happens to have make fun of --
LEMON: Should they do it in -- Kentucky, Kentucky.
LANGE: Yes, he's making fun of -- you know racism in Kentucky. He is talking about a fact. You know, that's what comics do, you bring up controversial stuff a lot of the times. And you know -- a lot of us get bored with the typical subjects that we are expected to talk about.
FUGELSANG: It's not the comedians job to choose materials that's going to make the audience comfortable especially, a political comedian.
LEMON: All right. Lets' look at him again on your show talking about -- politics now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LANGE: Are you political in the act? Are you political?
NOAH: I don't like to think I am, but politics is part of life and I come from a very political background.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
LANGE: Right. NOAH: You know what? When you come --
LANGE: Why is that?
NOAH: When you come from a place where you were born a crime, it's only inevitable that you --
LANGE: But it's true.
(LAUGHTER)
NOAH: You know, like I mean, I was --
LANGE: You inherently political.
NOAH: Exactly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Do you think the accent is going to be a problem some -- you know, South African talking to Americans about politics.
LANGE: First of all, I think most of our guests understand to me who answer that question.
(LAUGHTER)
ALNGE: I sound like a North Jersey guy on the Sopranos.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: But John Oliver does it.
LANGE: Yeah, but you know --
FUGELSANG: And he sounds like a bad guy from lethal weapon too.
LANGE: Well, when he -- that's a good point. No, not it is. I think -- I mean, there are lots of people mad that no Americans seem to be getting these jobs anymore. I mean, you know, there's nobody from Buffalo, that does going to funny that who can get this gig.
LEMON: There are no women that can get a gig like this? --
LANGE: Yeah, I mean, he -- when he talks fast, it is kind of hard to understand the punchline at times. Like it is when a cockney accent with the brits, you know -- you might be -- to a lot of people might just not understand what he is saying.
FUGELSANG: I hope they don't hold back because of that. Because if -- they can be a great joke teller, but you got to be a great truth teller for the Daily Show to mimic.
LEMON: OK. Let's play this. And I want to ask you. Maybe the problem is sweeter (ph), maybe it's context, because -- this is -- did you guys see the Roast -- the Bieber Roast last night? LANGE: Did not.
LEMON: Oh my, gosh.
LANGE: What about the Martha Stewart.
LEMON: Go ahead. Play it, play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANNIBAL BURESS, COMEDIAN: I hate your music more than Bill Cosby hates my comedy.
(LAUGHTER)
SNOOP DOGG, RAPPER: You released so many horrible and unwatchable videos. You should change your name to Vanilla ISIS.
JEFF ROSS, COMEDIAN: Come on, you said Anne Frank would have been a belieber. If Ann Frank heard your music, she would uber (ph) to Auschwitz.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I mean, that was harsh, but -- is it the problem 140 characters?
FUGELSANG: In terms of context?
LEMON: That's what because he' is --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yeah, it's not really that much for his routine.
FUGELSANG: Well, that's going to make you a good writer approve you can had it. I mean that's the challenge of 140 characters. You got to make the point. The jokes have observed you to the point your making and some of his jokes just had no point, they were just kind of mean. And that joke, could have -- he could have tightened it up a bit. But you know, a Twitter is a -- just because you have a joke that is bad on Twitter, does not mean it won't work in a club or in a TV studio as well. It's completely different mediums.
LEMON: Chris (ph) talks about -- he said back in the summer days in New York magazine, he said that -- basically, I'm just going to sum up, you can put the full screen up. What he says is, people are afraid to try things up because has a -- you know what camera out there...
LANGE: Right. You know, yeah.
LEMON: He said be able to try material out in the club, and you wouldn't get slammed for it. LANGE: That's the whole thing. You have to take a risk. Back when you
know John and I started doing stand up, if you are Cincinnati at a club in midnight, it was just you and those people in that room and you could say whatever you had to do to get off stage, get your check and get out of there. Now it is you and the whole world in a room. It's just to take one person you offend, they throw it up on their Twitter, look what Artie said...
LEMON: Michael Richards.
LANGE: And Tracy Morgan ran into that trouble. You know when --
FUGELSANG: Tosh ran to that trouble?
LANGE: Chris Rock on Saturday Night Live did a monologue about the -- you know, the freedom tower, and everybody goes through it. No one is immune from these so-called P.C. Police, and ultimately it hurt time we because of what Rock said is true. You are afraid to take risk. If you don't take the risks, you are not going to get better at being funny, you know.
LEMON: All right. And by the way my friend Laverne Cox you know...
FUGELSANG: Yes.
LEMON: The cover of TIME magazine...
FUGELSANG: Of course.
LEMON: We did hang out on Saturday night.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:35:00] FUGELSANG: I believe you. I believe with you, Don.
LEMON: I was actually -- I'm going to call him if she is offended by that.
(LAUGHTER)
FUGELSANG: On what in particular?
LEMON: At the joke.
LANGE: Which one?
LEMON: The trans joke.
FUGELSANG: But you know, but that's the thing. That's the thing about this kind of risky humor. The fact that there was the outcry...
LEMON: OK.
FUGELSANG: In the umbrage, shows that more people will hear that controversy and be more sensitive to trans people in the future. LEMON: OK. Stand by, you guys are going to stick around. Nobody should
be surprise when comedians sometimes go too far, but is Trevor Noah -- Trevor Noah the right choice to follow in Jon Stewart footsteps. We'll talk about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Most Americans didn't even know who Trevor Noah was until yesterday, but he is known by his fellow comics. I want you to listen to this bit from his standup in London. This is two years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOAH: I landed in New York and I was fluent in my black American. Chisel my nizzle.
(LAUGHTER)
NOAH: I had to walk and I had the toss so black out (ph) was even laughing out loud. Ha, ha, ha. Oh, yeah. Ha, ha. Oh, my man, my man. Oh, this is you, this you? Ha ha.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:39:55] LEMON: All right. So joining me now, Natalie Shore, journalist and comedian Jay Thomas, Emmy winning actor and host of the Jay Thomas show on Sirius radio and Wendy Todd, a culture and race blogger who wrote a piece in the Washington Post about Trevor Noah and Artie Lange and John Fugelsang join me -- or they were back with me. Hey Wendy, this is what you say, you wrote this on the Washington Post, she said, "Noah might look like in a lightning choice, but his routine show he isn't his jokes often hands on insulting African - Americans, well you can keep him. I like a conscious person of color to the wheel, not someone who has already driven me off of a racist cliff." At the wheel, I should say. You are worried that he will continue to perpetuate negative stereotypes, why?
WENDY TODD, CULTURE AND RACE BLOGGER, WRITER: I just think that -- first of all, you are coming to this country, and you're making fun of their resident, I don't understand that thinking at all, and you are contributing to stereotypes that are perpetuating a construct that is already devaluing black people here. We are getting shot in the streets, because people do not feel that we are value and to make jokes that can tribute and perpetuate that ideal is upsetting. It's upsetting and it's irresponsible.
LEMON: Is that a lot of pressure -- why can't comedians of color have the same freedom as other comedians to practice their craft. They have an extra burden? You feel? Sure they (ph), they are comedians.
TODD: I don't think it's about them practicing their craft. I think it's also about intention. If your intention to move the conversation forward, if you are exploring something as controversial as race, but if your intention is just to get a joke, then who pays for that? And, I feel like African-Americans have paid enough not to have someone come here and make fun of us. LEMON: Natalie, you are a strong defender of him on Twitter. I mean,
comedians are supposed to be offensive. Isn't that part of what being a comedian is, and really at some point it is just about that being funny and top pointing out stereotypes?
NATALIE SHURE, WRITER, JOURNALIST, COMEDIAN: Well to me, I think the question is less about whether or not someone deserves to be offensive and more whether or not Twitter specifically is emblematic of someone's talent and comedic sensibilities. I think that a lot of comedians use Twitter as more of a workyard than -- you know, a final draft, and I think as a result it is a lot less curated than other writing might be. So it's -- I think it's unfair to hole them to the same standards as you would for a televise comedy set which we already know that his sets are a lot different than what we saw on Twitter.
LEMON: Jay, you don't think that his tweets are funny. So where then is the line between funny and offensive?
JAY THOMAS, HOST, JAY THOMAS SHOW ON SIRIUSXM RADIO: Well, first of all, John was supposed to get job. So if John tweeted what he really --
LEMON: He wanted you to say that.
THOMAS: And Artie knows that too. And Artie and I we're going to be special needs correspondents...
(LAUGHTER) THOMAS: So we already had this thing ready to go. Here is the strange
thing. Twitter is like botox with the expressive face. It just takes away all expression, and then the Twitter terrorists who are these people that are just basically shut-ins, and they get the chance to attack and bring the people down, and they've been -- you know, kind of successful in this. I really am proud of the fact that Comedy Central has backed him up, and that Jon Stewart is backing him up, too, because it would be wonderful to see someone not get, get fired for something on Twitter. If you release what Martha Stewart said last night on the Bieber Roast, if you released that on Twitter, her stock would have been cut in half, she would have been reduced. She made homophobia, black people, people in prison, in jail, that means, she just went on and on, it was spectacular, but it was on TV, it wasn't on Twitter. That thing is evil, that Twitter thing. That thing is horrible...
SHURE: I think Twitter can be really great.
THOMAS: But if you back to Jon Stewart -- you know Jon Stewart also backs him, and from one of his greatest bits, you know, which was the faith-off, I think we must just ride the red sea log fume with him, because he thinks this kid is great...
LEMON: OK.
THOMAS: So let's, let's go with him.
LEMON: Go ahead, Natalie. SHURE: I mean, I think Twitter can with be really great. I mean, I
agree with you that there are definitely people who I think sit on Twitter looking for a comment to -- put into an article. But, I also think that's part of the nature of social media that everything that happens is immediately evident to every corner of the internet, and the digital media culture that we are in. I think all of these writers and all of these bloggers are under so much pressure...
LEMON: Here's but --
SHURE: To hit the news peg. And I think that it creates all of this outrage and affects our ability to discern between a big deal and small deal, and this is just like a very small deal.
LEMON: OK.
FUGELSANG: I'm so offended say that. I can't believe you will say that. I'm sorry.
SHURE: I am outraged when...
LEMON: It's Ok. You just defended your --
SHURE: Someone makes fun of African-Americans and they get rewarded for that. I am outrageous with that.
[22:44:57] LEMON: But Wendy, I have to say this, if you look at Richard Pryor...
FUGELSANG: Wait, but what about Martha Stewart last night?
LEMON: You look at -- if you look at all of the great comedians, they've made fun of what they know, they talked about African- Americans, they were very funny with it. Are you --
TODD: And that is the point, they were funny. Trevor Noah for me is not funny.
LANGE: Well, he is not Richard Pryor, or Martha and no one is.
FUGELSANG: And Don makes the good point.
TODD: And it feels that it's going to heritance for Trevor Noah and Richard Pryor. They are not in the same category, it's not the time.
LANGE: It is my thing about Wendy. Wendy is a clearly a very smart person, probably was smarter than me, and she is a very serious person. But a lot of what she says does not belong in the conversation about comedy, because Trevor Noah does a couple of racial -- racially sensitive jokes, does not mean that he devalues African- Americans and wants them to be shot in the street.
TODD: that is not for you to decide.
LEMON: Who is it? Who is it?
LANGE: It is not for you to decide either Wendy
LEMON: Who gets to decide?
TODD: It is. Why is that...
LANGE: Why is that you have to decide?
TODD: If you are a person who is being targeted by these jokes. And you are --
LANGE: You are being targeted by Trevor Noah's jokes?
TODD: The African-American community. The black community here in the United States, that was exactly being targeted --
LANGE: I respectfully disagree with you Wendy.
FUGELSANG: Wendy, respectfully --
LANGE: I mean, still not.
FUGELSANG: I'll bring you to any comedy club in any major city Wendy, and show you African-American comedians making the same exact kind of humor that Trevor Noah make, all of these are funnier.
TODD: And that's their choice.
FUGELSANG: Yeah, all of these funnier.
TODD: But it doesn't mean that it's OK, and there is --
FUGELSANG: But it's -- it's mocking the stereo...
TODD: There is still.
FUGELSANG: It's mocking the stereotype not the way it is.
TODD: But there is a still to telling joke that moves a conversation forward.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS: Wendy, Wendy, it's not about a conversation. It's not about the conversation. The person you descried should be the star of killing Jesus.
LEMON: Yeah.
THOMAS: I mean, that's a whole different -- you're serious. You are talking about some serious person.
TODD: I am serious, and because these are serious issues to me...
THOMAS: Jon Stewart is not serious...
TODD: And the serious issues to other people who are marginalized by these kinds of comments.
LEMON: All right, stand by, standby, everyone. Stand by everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: I'm ambiguous (ph) light brown...
(CROSSTALK) TODD: Because it is not being valued on the same level as other people
from other communities. And these types of comments coming from someone who is not even from here, further adds to the perpetuation of the stereotypes --
FUGELSANG: You know what? Somebody tweeted, these damn foreigners. Somebody tweeted and we're talking about Michelle and that is exactly what comedy central wants us to do.
LANGE: And again, we are taking it way too seriously, guys.
LEMON: I want to continue this conversation, I really want to and I'm wondering if we can -- I want to ask the producers if we can condense the next segment, said love against news (ph). I think it is a very important conversation. So, don't go anywhere, we are going to work it out in the break, and we will be right back, OK?
[22:47:24] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back now with my panel. Everyone is back with me, I begged the producers to give me a little bit more time, so this is a lightning round. Wendy, you are getting beat up on. So who gets to decide?
TODD: It's OK. I think the people who are affected by stereotypes or the people who get to decide how they feel about that. Someone else, someone white telling me that I shouldn't be offended by these jokes, because other black comedians have done it, doesn't make sense to me. If other black comedians want to make jokes about black people, that's the right to do that.
LEMON: OK.
TODD: I don't have to think it's funny.
LEMON: John.
FUGELSANG: Wendy, you are beautiful and articulate and it's a pleasure to almost meet you virtually. I get -- I think in an era when we see black men disproportionally thrown into the prison system and the poverty to prison pipeline we have in this country, where the confederate flag, the symbol of quitting America, because you want to keep people as a livestock still flies above the South Carolina capital, being offended by an artist's jokes may not be the best channeling of your energies. And I say that with respect commemoration.
TODD: It's not about joke. It is about the message that it perpetuates, not about jokes. FUGELSANG: I encourage you to watch the entire special he did. You'll
see, he's making fun of himself, through it.
LEMON: Yeah. We've got 30 seconds, Artie.
(CROSSTALK) LANGE: I think the funniest thing -- the most offensive being said here tonight is that Jay Thomas is a journalist.
FUGELSANG: I agree completely.
THOMAS: Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much.
LANGE: Will you put it down on the resume.
THOMAS: This was a -- this was a decision to try and get people internationally involved in the Daily Show. I think that's the biggest mistakes they are making.
LANGE: That could be at.
THOMAS: they wanted to be some international kind of a thing and...
LEMON: Yeah.
LANGE: It's working.
LEMON: All right guys.
THOMAS: Nobody mind that those jokes in South Africa.
LEMON: That's it. Natalie, sorry we can't get you in. But thank you everyone, we'll have you back. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:56:23] LEMON: Back everyone. Reports tonight from Paris match (ph) and a German newspaper Bild of the cell phone video of the last moments of the doom flight 9525. Investigators say they are not aware of any such video. Meanwhile Lufthansa now, says the co-pilot did tell them about an episode of severe depression.
I want to bring in Aviation Attorney Steven Marks, who represents families of Air France flight 447, and also a Psychologist Bill Schmitz, president of the American Association of Suicidology. Thank you for joining us. Stephen, to you first, this is just -- I mean, it's terrible for the families, but a cell phone video did survived, it does exist from this crash. Is that -- obviously there will be some help in the investigation here, correct?
STEVEN MARKS, AVIATION ATTORNEY: Of course it will be helpful in the investigation, but as far as the passengers, it is only going to traumatize them more if they hear it. Hopefully they won't, there are actually number of victims who have heard cockpit voice recorders and air traffic controller tapes. It is not a healthy for them to do so. So hopefully, that's not going to be public, it's not going to be on the air and they're not going to hear it accidentally. But the whole system from the standpoint of litigation and proving the -- how terrible -- which everybody can imagine this whole event was.
LEMON: And doctor, should -- you know Lubitz told his -- told Lufthansa, that the flight training school in 2009, that he had a previous episode of severe depression. How does depression turn to suicide and then to mass homicide?
BILL SCHMITZ, PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF SUICIDOLOGY: Depression actually is a very common disease. We know they affect 16 million Americans every single year. But suicide is very rare, and unfortunately, we don't have the research money to fully understand situations such as this terrible tragedy that is very infrequent.
LEMON: We are having an issue with your microphone, but I will ask you, because we can still hear you. Are you surprised that he didn't leave a note or none has been found yet?
SCHMITZ: I am not surprised that he didn't leave a note, I am surprised that a pilot would take a flight down because, usually, people I worked with actually have a commitment to caring for others, even if that I am in a suicidal state. You know a lot of psychological anguish...
LEMON: Yeah.
SCHMITZ: They want to end their own suffering much more than others.
LEMON: All right. I'm going to talk to Steven now. If you can see if your microphone is in your jacket or maybe you are sitting on it, but just check your jacket, and I will talk to Steven. You know Lufthansa was aware Steven, of Lubitz psychological issues and now, French prosecutors considering a man slaughter charge. Will criminal charges change any loses moving forward?
MARKS: No, I think in fact, it probably helps the families from the litigation standpoint. As I mentioned on a show previously, the -- there have been many European criminal investigations following airplane crashes, it's rather unusual for America, we don't see that for simple negligence. But in the UK and Europe, generally speaking, they do prosecute when there is -- even it is not criminal by our standards, but it is manslaughter or negligent homicide. You will see those criminal prosecutions, and they do assist the families, because the pressures are on the carriers to resolve those cases, the insurance carriers. And also the airline wants to resolve the cases and get it out of the public's eye. So I don't see that as a negative development.
LEMON: Yeah. Quickly, I had to run it, if you give me 10 seconds. So his girlfriend be held accountable if she knew about this and didn't inform anyone? Steven?
MARKS: Well, if she knew -- if she knew about it obviously, she is holding herself accountable. She -- probably feels terrible, possibly, blaming herself for 149 lives...
LEMON: Right.
MARKS: But I can't comment on whether French should prosecute her or the Germans.
[22:59:56] LEMON: Dr. Bill Schmitz and Steven Marks, thanks to both of you. I appreciate you joining us tonight.
That's it for us tonight, I'm Don Lemon, thank you so much for watching. See you back here tomorrow night.
"AC360" starts right now.
