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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Calls for Special Prosecutor to Investigate Clinton; Trump Postponing Major Immigration Speech; Will Trump Release His Tax Returns?; Trump Reaching out to Black and Hispanic Voters. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired August 22, 2016 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: That does it for us. CNN TONIGHT with Don Lemon starts now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Donald Trump ramping up his attacks on Hillary Clinton's character calling for a special prosecutor to investigate her.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

He is also postponing a major speech on immigration giving his new campaign a chance to fine tune the policy. But Trump at a rally tonight in Akron, Ohio, doubling down on his signature policy idea.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to build a wall, folks. We're going to build it.


Don't worry. We're going to build the wall. That wall will go up so fast your head will spin.


LEMON: Well, Trump touching on a lot of issues at his rally. I want to begin, though, with CNN's correspondents Phil Mattingly and Jeff Zeleny. Good evening to you, gentlemen. Phil, you first, Donald Trump stumping in the key state of Ohio tonight. What did he have to say to his supporters?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, what you really heard was the influence of his newly minted campaign team. There was kind of that renewed outreach to minority voters. Kind of expanding a little bit on his what the hell do you have to lose line from last week but you also saw a sharpened focus on Hillary Clinton, attack after attack after attack.

What you're seeing with this, Don, with this right now is really a dual message approach to a renewed campaign. One push by the new campaign manager Kellyanne Conway and the new campaign CEO Steve Bannon, one that they believe can help turn around a campaign for the last few weeks has really been lagging in the polls, Don.

LEMON: All right. Let's listen to a clip.


TRUMP: Another major part of our agenda is immigration security. We need to protect American jobs. We need to protect American safety.

(CROWD CHANTING "Build that wall")

TRUMP: We're going to build a wall, folks. We're going to build it. And you know what else I mean? Mexico is going to pay for the wall.



LEMON: So, Phil, the campaign is answering a lot of questions about his immigration policy after his campaign manager was asked whether Trump still planned to deport 11 million illegal immigrants and she said to be determined. What more can you tell us about that?

MATTINGLY: Well, we know the wall is it. And obviously the wall will still be part of the policy. What we don't know is really the other details of this immigration proposal. You noted Donald Trump had a major immigration speech scheduled for Thursday. That has been postponed.

And what we're seeing publicly is a lot of what's going on behind the scenes privately. There's a lot of talk and debate over what the final approach to immigration would be. Donald Trump obviously very hardline on immigration issues up to this point.

But his new campaign team very cognizant of the fact that they need to soften if not the policy then at least the message or language that they use talking about that. If they are to kind of achieve outreach to enough voters to actually win in November.

That's the debate that's going on behind the scenes. We're seeing a lot of shifting messages back and forth depending on the advisers that you talk to. But as Donald Trump notes at least the wall for sure is it, Don.

LEMON: And, Jeff, my question to you is, did you guys call each other? You're wearing the same thing tonight. You, guys look exactly alike.


LEMON: Tonight, your outfit looks exactly alike. But, Jeff, you have been covering Hillary Clinton today. She got some unwelcome news concerning her e-mails. What's the latest with that?

ZELENY: Don, when you think this e-mail controversy is done, it's not. A federal judge here today in Washington ruled that the State Department has to accelerate the release of 15,000 new e-mails and documents that we have not yet seen.

This is all part of the FBI investigation. They turned these up in their year-long investigation of that private e-mail server that she used as Secretary of State.

Now the FBI has looked at these, so there won't be any sort of new examples of any criminal wrongdoing, but the public has not looked at them. We have not looked at them. So, this will definitely be a question here, "a," why didn't they turn them over, and "b", what is contained in them?

So, you know, just when they think they're turning the corner, they are not here, and it's all because of that decision to use a private e-mail server back at the beginning of the Obama administration.

LEMON: It's also fodder for her opponent, Donald Trump, here's what he said tonight about it.

ZELENY: Right.


TRUMP: Hillary Clinton said she turned over all of her work-related e-mails. She...

(CROWD CHANTING "Lock her up")

TRUMP: She testified to Congress under penalty of perjury. Now we learn about another 15,000 e-mails she failed to turn over and they've just been discovered, I guess, today.



[22:05:01] LEMON: Yes, is that true? Because it's documents and they don't know if they are duplicates, so is his statement true?

ZELENY: No, his statement was not true. "A," they were not turned over today. The FBI turned them over to the State Department in July actually after their year-long investigation. And we don't know how many of them are new or duplicates.

But the State Department are telling us they believe many of them are new. We have not yet seen them. So, the challenge here for Donald Trump, obviously his crowd is chanting "lock them up, lock them up." This gets his base going.

It gets the Clinton base going as well because they are, frankly, sick of this e-mail talk. Bernie Sanders famously said, you know, "enough of the damn e-mails." Democrats believe that. But it is those voters in the middle who may be turned off by Donald Trump, maybe you're just on the cusp of holding their nose and voting for Hillary Clinton, republicans or whoever, who maybe, you know, have some more questions about this. So, that's why the Clinton campaign is not welcoming this news. They

wanted to be talking about Donald Trump's temperament today, the new advertising campaign.

But that federal judge ruled today that, you know, these 15,000 e- mails must be released starting in a month or so. So this is not going to go away.


ZELENY: This is going to be a drip, drip, drip until election day.

LEMON: I had to say, though, I mean, it's not a good week for her starting off. Because Donald Trump continues, Jeff, to accuse Clinton of using her position as Secretary of State to do favors for Clinton Foundation donors. What can you tell us about that?

ZELENY: That definitely is an accusation, but so far all of our investigations have not shown any examples of concrete favors.

Our colleague, Drew Griffin, has been investigating the foundation. There are questions for sure about access that donors had. Meetings with the secretary. And other things. But there is so far no exact evidence we've been able to find of a quid pro quo.

But the Clintons are so sensitive to this, Don. They are changing the rules of the foundation. Saying that if she is elected president, they will not accept any outside contributions, any foreign contributions and in fact, the former president will step down as part of this foundation here.

But some critics are like why should you wait until the election, why shouldn't you do that right now here? So, this foundation and the e- mails, they are linked. They're going to continue to be fodder for many questions and much criticism between now and election day.

LEMON: It's the old self-inflicted wounds we're talking about. Thank you, very much, for that Jeff and Phil, I appreciate it.

I want to bring in now Betsy McCaughey, she's the former lieutenant governor of New York who is supporting Donald Trump, and CNN political commentator Kayleigh McEnany, also a Trump supporter, Bakari Sellers is here, a Hillary Clinton supporter, and Ms. Ana Navarro is here as well, back from vacation and fresh I am sure.

So, good evening to all of you. Thank you for coming on. First to you, lieutenant governor, again, thank you for coming on tonight. Donald Trump said at many times, no uncertain terms, that 11 million illegal immigrants had to be deported. Some question. Do you think he's backing off now?

BETSY MCCAUGHEY, TRUMP ECONOMIC ADVISOR: No, I'll tell you what he's doing, and this is the natural evolution of the campaign as he moves from the primary to the general election. He's made it clear there will be a wall. No surprise about that. Every nation has a right and an obligation to enforce its borders and

sadly, the United States has failed to do that in the past. And that created an enormous economic burden for particularly for labor in this country.

But on the other issues, he needs the cooperation of Congress. He understands that there are three branches of government in the United States and when he met with Hispanic leaders this weekend, it was obvious that he would have to map out a practical way and he's always used the word, fair and humane, practical, fair and humane way to deal with illegal immigration.

But I would say this, more than anything Donald Trump's approach to immigration, it is not racial. It is based on two things. Economics and public safety.

LEMON: OK. But my question is, he's not -- because initially he said we would have them deported, they would be able to come back in, talking about illegal immigrants. And now it's yet to be determined. Let me -- I'm going to play Kellyanne Conway on State of the Union then we can talk about it. This is campaign manager.


KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: As the weeks unfold, he will lay out the specifics of that plan that he would implement as president of the United States.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Will that plan include a deportation force, the kind that he just -- you just heard in that sound bite and that he talked about during the republican primaries?

CONWAY: To be determined.


LEMON: So, she's saying to be determined because it's a deportation force at first, he said. And then now he's saying maybe not.

MCCAUGHEY: But that was -- require action by Congress as well. And so, naturally as you move forward in a campaign and talk to all the constituents...


LEMON: As you move forward or as he's learned better?

MCCAUGHEY: No, I think as you move forward in the primary process, he mapped out his values. He made it clear that in enforcing the border and preferring legal immigration was his values.

[22:10:00] That's what he presented to the American people. And as I said, he strongly believes that every nation on earth has a right, an obligation, to enforce its borders and determine who comes in.

LEMON: OK. I was going to get to Kayleigh, but Ana, I know you're rearing to get in. What did you want to say?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Frankly, I was just listening to what she was saying. I have a hard time reacting to what Donald Trump is going to say because I think none of us know what he's going to say, in fact, I don't think he knows what he's going to say which is why that immigration speech was postponed.

Look, Kellyanne Conway is a very decent human being, she's a very sensible human being. She has been a republican politics for a really long time. She's been in the trenches and she has pulled this immigration issue back and forth. She has been an advocate for immigration reform.

She tried to convince republicans to get it passed because she knew it was the sensible thing to do not only from a human perspective but also from a political perspective. She's got a very tough cat to skin in a sense that Donald Trump has based a large part of his campaign on building a wall, on bashing immigrants, on bashing Hispanics, on just being very divisive.

His rhetoric has been very hostile. And so, how does he balance it, how does he balance this immigration issue that on the one hand makes sense to pivot on during a general election but on the other hand it's what a lot of his base really likes. That's this one issue that he has laser focused on for the last year plus.

LEMON: And that is really the conundrum that the campaign manager and the campaign manager faces, Kayleigh, as they go through, because the lieutenant governor is saying, no, you know, he is just, I guess it's sort of a pivot, he's learning that you have to go through Congress and you have to do these things.

But initially as we've been here for a year talking about this, he said they would have to go and then come back. Correct? You don't think this is a change in policy?

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do think it's a change. But, look, in the March debate, Donald Trump said something that I think was very smart. He said great leaders are flexible. Because they do have to work with Congress.


MCENANY: You have to be flexible on the margins of your policy. What republican leaders care about is not sending illegal immigrants out of this country. That is not the number one thing republican voters care about. They care about having a secure border, they care about not having illegal immigrants on the street.

So, Donald Trump said, look, we're still going to build the wall, we're going to have the overriding principle of border security but we're not going to do what this democratic administration has done with is let out 19,700 criminal illegal immigrants onto the street, 800 with sexual convictions, 200 with murder convictions.

That is the contrast that Donald Trump has put forward. He changed on this and I think it was a good thing he change on the margin of this policy.

LEMON: Bakari, do get stand by. I want to get one more answer from Ana, then I will let you in. Because, Ana, this weekend, Trump met with some - while we are in the subject of immigration and the Hispanic voters. He met with some Hispanic advisers. Do you feel like he is trying to find a way to pivot toward the center here?

NAVARRO: Look, I have no idea what he's trying to do. I think he's reading the polls and I think he sees that he is in the teens in support with Hispanics, and that's very bad particularly in some swing states like the one I live in in Florida.

The problem is that it is, frankly, too little too late. For 14, 15 months Donald Trump has now been bashing Hispanics. He launched his campaign by calling Mexicans rapists, by saying they brought crime, and that yes, there were some good people.

He went after Judge Curiel because of his Mexican heritage. He kicked Jorge Ramos and Jose Diaz-Balart at a press event. He has done thing after thing after Hispanics.

You don't start building a relationship with a community less than three months before an election. This is something that takes a lifelong commitment.


NAVARRO: Now, I will tell you, I do think that it's important to recognize that Hispanics like African-Americans like every other group are not one homogeneous bloc and there's difference of opinion. As far as I'm concerned, he has burnt the bridges. There are others who feel different.


LEMON: Go ahead, Ms. McCaughey. Governor, you want to respond.

MCCAUGHEY: I don't believe he has burnt the bridges. Because there's a very large Hispanic community in our country who respects the law, who obey the law if they came in as immigrants themselves. They are hardworking people. They want to see economic success in this country.

And for those people, as for many other Americans, they understand that immigration is not a racial issue. It's an economic issue. Look at our northern border to Canada...



MCCAUGHEY: Just a moment. Look at our northern border to Canada which welcomes in more immigrants even than the United States proportionately. But they have rule, never mind what your ethnic origin is, if you can demonstrate that you can make a contribution to the economy, that you are self-sufficient, that you are educated and have skills and can support your family, welcome in. LEMON: OK.

MCCAUGHEY: And that should be the rule in the United States.

LEMON: Bakari, go ahead.


NAVARRO: Yes, it's not the racial. I get that. I guess that's why Donald Trump has suggested a wall with Canada.

SELLERS: I just think -- I just think that the lieutenant governor -- no. I just think that the lieutenant governor is just completely wrong when she states that this hasn't been racial whatsoever.

In fact, Donald Trump patterned his immigration policy of 1948, Dwight Eisenhower's operation wet back. And we know that to be true. And that in itself, I mean, his campaign, when he opened his campaign, he talked about Mexicans being rapists. So, yes. There's definitely has issue of connotations...


[22:15:07] MCCAUGHEY: Well, there is a lot of illegality on that border and unfortunately, illegal immigrants are the victims of it.

SELLERS: And unfortunately, I'm just going to -- I let you -- I let you finish. I just want to get this last thought out. Unfortunately, all the hardworking immigrants that you talked just a moment ago has not been something that Donald Trump has uttered.

When we talked about his speech at the convention which was supposed to set the tone for the last few months in this candidacy, in this campaign, he didn't mention one positive image of a Hispanic-American, of an immigrant. Not one.

Instead, it was desperation doom and despair. Instead it was every immigrant, every person of color is one of a criminal background who has an affinity to break the law of this country.


MCENANY: That's not true.

MCCAUGHEY: That's not at all his characterization.

SELLERS: And that's just not the case.

MCENANY: And, Bakari, he has said immigration is good, and he wants immigrants to be here, he wants them to come the right way. There are American citizens who have lost their lives because illegal immigrants were let out by this president and by the policies of sanctuary cities and Kate Steinle is one of them.

And that is not fair. Not one American citizen should lose their life because a criminal is let out on the streets. LEMON: OK. We'll take a break. We're going to talk about African-

American outreach. We'll be right back.


LEMON: Well, Donald Trump holding a rally tonight in Akron, Ohio.

Back with me now, Betsy McCaughey, former lieutenant governor of New York, also Kayleigh McEnany, Bakari Sellers and Ana Navarro.

Bakari, I want you to listen to this, all of you as a matter of fact, Trump talking about African-Americans and Hispanics tonight. Listen.


[22:19:59] It is a disaster the way African-Americans are living in many cases. And in many cases, the way Hispanics are living. And I say it with such a deep-felt feeling, what do you have to lose?

I will straighten it out. I'll bring jobs back. We'll bring spirit back.


We'll get rid of the crime. You'll be able to walk down the street without getting shot. Right now, you walk down the street, you get shot. Look at the statistics. We'll straighten it out.


LEMON: So, what's your reaction, this refrain to African-American voters now is what the hell do you have to lose? Bakari?

SELLERS: I mean, I have a lot to lose voting for Donald Trump. I mean, we've been hearing this on repeat the last four or five days now. And it just gets more and more insulting, more and more condescending.

But it actually shows that the reason that you have to have diversity in your workplace, diversity in your business, diversity on your campaigns because I believe if he had some African-Americans around him, they may be able to get to Donald Trump and tell him that's not how you talk to people.

One of the things that Donald Trump has done over the past few weeks is paint African-Americans and Hispanics with this very broad brush, not talking about the African-Americans who get up every single day and go work hard at two, three jobs just to provide for their families.

Not talking about the African-Americans who are teachers who actually are parents of students who go to parent/teacher conferences.

LEMON: He's saying that go to the people he want to reach that he can make, give them a better than the democrat. SELLERS: Well, actually that's not what he said. He said you all have

no jobs, you all go to broken schools, you walk down your streets and get shot. And that's not just the America that many African-Americans live in.

That's not the America that many African-Americans know. I mean, I actually feel as if Donald Trump is trying to not speak to African- Americans or Hispanics but he's try to convince white college educated voters that he's not intolerant.

LEMON: Go ahead.

MCENANY: Now, Bakari, you know, I heard that sound bite on loop. That one sound bite we've heard over and over again. But 90 percent of the speech tonight was devoted to what the community would gain from a Donald Trump presidency. And he did uplift African-Americans. He talks about African-Americans fighting in every war.

He talks about African-Americans small business owners, and how many own small businesses and how he would lift regulatory restrictions and put in place by the Obama administration to help the small business owners.

So, he has to talk about them in a positive light. The other 0 percent of the speech was entirely about that. We can focus on one sound bite, though.

LEMON: Go ahead.

MCCAUGHEY: And let's point out the real racist candidate in this presidential contest is Hillary Clinton. She has crisscrossed the nation telling African-American audiences that they're the victims of systemic racism and actually accusing public school teachers of creating a school to prison $ pipeline when they suspend or discipline African-American students.

Why is that racist? Because it's obvious that Hillary Clinton thinks that African-American students can expect to behave in school, to perform in school, to succeed in school.

LEMON: But lieutenant governor, just looking at the data here, is looking at the data. There is a report done by -- hang on. There is a report...


SELLERS: Don, Don, Don. Let me...

LEMON: I just want to get the facts in here and then you guys can answer. There's a report done, civil rights data collection, report done in 2014 that does say African-American students are disciplined hasher than white students for the same -- for the same things in schools, suspension of preschool, children by race, because of ethnicity and gender.

There is disproportionately high school suspension, expulsion rates for students of color, the you can read the data and you can make of it any, you know, whatever you want.


MCCAUGHEY: I cannot believe that teachers...

LEMON: But those are the facts. Go on.

MCCAUGHEY: ... public schoolteachers, the most liberal profession in America, are guilty of systemic racism. It just doesn't confectioning.


SELLERS: Well, then open your eyes, lieutenant governor. When then open your eyes, lieutenant governor.


SELLERS: For you to sit here on national TV and act as if systemic racism it doesn't exist.

MCCAUGHEY: We have to expect African-American children to live up to the same high standards...


LEMON: Let him finish.

SELLERS: If you're going to -- if you're going to sit here and act as if systemic racism doesn't exist, then I don't know what to do. Systemic racism is prevalent not only in our criminal justice system but on our education system.

Go to Flint, and look at the environmental injustices in Flint. I mean, I don't understand how you can actually formulate your mouth to say systemic racism does not exist. I mean, we point out the statistics that African-Americans are more likely to have the use of force when they interact with police officers.

We point out the statistics that African-Americans are more likely to be suspended. We point out the statistics that they're more likely to be punished harder in the criminal justice system. What else do you want us to point out to you to let you see that systemic racism exist. Please, welcome to 2016.

MCCAUGHEY: Don. Can I answer that question, though.

LEMON: Let Ana get in, governor. And then we'll go ahead. Go ahead, Ana.

NAVARRO: Look, Donald Trump asked the question tonight, he asked it before, what do African-Americans, what do Hispanics have to lose by voting for him? I don't speak for all Hispanics. I speak for myself.

Maybe the 80-plus percent of Hispanics we don't approve of him. Some of them may agree with me. I think what we have to lose is our dignity, our sense of self-worth. I think what we have to lose is our moral compass. I think that if we allow ourselves to vote for a man who has been making textbook racist remarks, and in my book, that makes him a racist.

[22:25:03] For over a year against Hispanics, against immigrants, you're voting against your own self-interest. I think that we would lose our political leverage. We would lose any power if we allow somebody who has been bashing us for over a year to win the presidency.

It means the Hispanic vote does not matter.


NAVARRO: So, that's my answer to Donald Trump, what we have to lose by voting for you? Our dignity.

LEMON: I don't want to give short surf to the e-mail controversy so, if you want to respond quickly, you can or we can move on and talk about Hillary Clinton.

MCCAUGHEY: What Donald Trump is offering all communities the United States is an opportunity for real economic growth, for prosperity. Hillary Clinton is dividing us by race and ethnicity. Donald Trump is addressing all of us and saying let's create a stronger America.

LEMON: OK. Donald Trump is accusing Hillary Clinton of pay-for-play giving access to State Department in exchange for donations to the Clinton Foundation.

The conservative legal group, Judicial Watch, released 725 e-mails they obtain. They say these e-mails shows the cozy relationship. And I want to read out the full exchange and then we're going to talk about it. OK?

So, let me get to this. So, this is Clinton Foundation executive Doug Band. And he writes "Crown prince of Bahrain in tomorrow to Friday asking to see her. Good friends of ours. Then Huma Abedin replies at the request who has already been made via official channel."

And then writes, "I asked, and she says she doesn't want to commit to anything for Thursday or Friday until she knows how she will feel. Also she says that she may want to go to N.Y. and doesn't or go to N.Y. and doesn't want to be committed to stuff in N.Y. And then -- which is New York. And then she corrected to say stuff in D.C."

And then Band responds to the first message, "Cool." Two days later, Abedin writes to Band -- writes band, "Offering Bahrain crown prince 10 tomorrow with meeting with HRC. If you see him, let him now." And then adds, "We have reached out through official channels."

And then Band replies, "Nice, Abedin is his guy, he is great." Abdullah is his guy -- excuse me, Abdullah is his guy and then, great."

So, here's the question, Bakari. What do you make of this? Were these ties between the foundation and the State Department a conflict of interest or illegal?

SELLERS: I mean, no, they're neither. I don't even know what are we talking about. There's no smoking gun here. We keep...


LEMON: You don't think it looks bad when you read these?

SELLERS: Oh, when I -- does it look bad? Of course. Are the optics bad? We've been saying the optics have been bad since the beginning. But they went through the official channels. You had someone who went -- who set up a meeting through the official channels, who orchestrated this meeting the way it was supposed to be done. Period.

There's no smoking gun here. We want to see some pay-for-play, some type of quid pro quo. And that's simply not that...


LEMON: Ana, do you see a problem here?

NAVARRO: I absolutely do.

SELLERS: It is bad optics.

NAVARRO: I think, look, I think it is more than bad optics. It is bad judgment. It is blurred lines between the Clinton world of philanthropy, politics and business. People were making money here.

Doug Band wasn't just working for the Clinton Foundation. He also was, you know, in the leadership position of a Tenniel, a consulting company. Then that, you know, you had Huma Abedin who had three or four different jobs at the same time while she was working with the State Department. It is overlapping. It is conflict of interest. It is ethically disturbing.

It is frankly a very bad picture. And I really question the judgment of the Clintons who knew Hillary Clinton was going to run, for continuing to do this. They should have announced a long time ago the moment that she started running for president that the Clinton foundation was not going to receive more foreign donations.

I don't understand why it is that they've never met a dollar they haven't liked. Whether it is for a paid speech, whether it is for a philanthropy donation, whether it is for money made through consulting.

At some point, you've got to say no to things that don't make sense. This didn't make sense. It is very disturbing. Look, America has two bad choices. That's the damn truth. We have two bad choices. It's just that one choice is bad, the other one is horrible, awful, racist.

LEMON: Lieutenant governor, we don't have you here often, so I want you to respond. Kayleigh, you're going to be back later on but if you'll let her quickly, please. MCCAUGHEY: Yes, in 2009 when, Mrs. Clinton came before the Senate for

confirmation as Secretary of State, democratic and republican senators expressed their deep concern that she would use her office as Secretary of State to sell America and garnish -- garner money for the Clinton Foundation.

They expressed their concern, they asked her to disclose it. To disclose the amounts. The timing or not to do it at all. She refused. Every single request. She knew what she was going to do. She knew she was going to sell American influence to raise money for that foundation. And she did.

LEMON: All right. Bakari, do you want to defend her real quick? Do you want -- what do you...


SELELRS: I mean, look, there is no smoking gun. We keep going through these e-mails. And I'm sick and tired of these damn e-mails to quote Bernie Sanders.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Just ahead, a republican member of Congress who is supporting Donald trump has one message for the candidate, release your tax returns. That's next.


LEMON: Less than three months until Election Day, and Donald Trump still has not released his tax returns.

I want to talk about this with Congressman Mark Sanford, republican of South Carolina who is supporting Trump but calling on him to make those documents public.

Good evening, congressman. Thank you for joining us.


What do you think of Donald Trump's approach to immigration before we talk about that? He has added words like humane, now when he talk he says humane when he talks about deporting people. Thursday's speech is delayed now. Do you think he is changing his position when it comes to immigration?

SANFORD: I would doubt it. You know, I spent a lot of time out talking to folks at grassroots level. And they are very, very fired up and enthusiastic about what he said thus far on immigration. I think that part of the jet fuel of his campaign to the primary process was in fact based on his stance on immigration.

If he backs away from that, you're going to see an awfully upset base that is I think part and parcel to his support going forward.

LEMON: When -- is immigration one of those issues that gives you pause when it comes to voting for Trump? [22:35:06] SANFORD: I don't like the language he's used, which was

discussed with the last panel that was just on. This notion of classifying every Hispanic was rapist or murder is the kind of thing that, you know, may be great rhetorical red meat but disastrous in terms of formulating policy.

It creates walls politically that I think become insurmountable. And so, I would say the notion of having a secure border is something I absolutely stand for and believe in. The way in which he's talked about it I don't like.

LEMON: OK. Earlier this month, you wrote an op-ped in The New York Times asking Donald Trump to release his tax returns. And he said that he would but claims that an audit is holding up the process.

It's two years ago he's talking about. I want to play this for you about the issue that you also quoted in your op-ed. Look at this.


TRUMP: Maybe if I decide to run for office, I'll produce my tax returns, absolutely. I would love to do that.


LEMON: Do you think that Donald Trump is undermining his own argument against Clinton and transparency by not releasing those returns?

SANFORD: Absolutely. I mean, if you want to talk about somebody else's glass box, make sure that yours is not equally glass. And, you know, I think he has so much to go on with regard to the Clinton e- mails, and all the pay-for-play questions that exist over there with the Clinton Foundation, and whatnot.

But you first got to clean up your own house. And part of that for the Trump candidacy means doing what you said you would do with regard to releasing your own tax returns. It's something he was emphatic about and promising several years ago prior to running.

It's something he was equally emphatic about throughout the primary process, saying they're coming up, they're almost there, they're almost there. And now the door seems to close and that's why I wrote the op-ed I did.

I think for him to do what he's talking about would be not only a mistake in terms of not keeping his word on the subject, but I think more importantly, more importantly than the Trump returns themselves, have major implications going forward with regard to other presidential nominees going again in the years...


LEMON: You said it's precedent setting in your op-ed.

SANFORD: ... releasing their returns. I'm sorry?

LEMON: You said it's precedent setting in your op-ed.

SANFORD: Correct. We've had a 50-year tradition in this country of presidential nominees whether it's in the republican or democratic side releasing their returns. There's a reason that the banker when you apply for a mortgage don't say, well, just give me a, you know, the thumbnail sketch of how your financial had been. They say show me your returns.

Returns tell things that oftentimes get embellished particularly in the world of politics. And so, I think it's an important tradition to uphold and it's not only important at the presidential level, it's incredibly important for state officeholders.

I ran for governor twice. In both instances, I had to release my tax returns. I didn't like it, I like it in my op-ed to a colonoscopy. It's not fun. But it was a tradition that you kind to have to live up to it based on the fact that others have done so.

If the presidential nominee stops releasing their returns, be certain that a whole host of gubernatorial nominees across this country won't release theirs and I think that that hurt our country in terms of (Inaudible)...


LEMON: Why do you think he's won't do it.

SANFORD: ... that whether you're a republican or a democrat. Why? Well, you know, Mitt Romney would say that there's a smoking gun. Maybe he's not worth as much as he says he is, maybe he hasn't donated as much as he says he is. Maybe he pays a lower return.

I don't know. But again, I think his return is of much less consequence then the larger tradition of releasing returns. And I think that, you know, the American public I guess in short form is a lot smarter than people give them credit.

LEMON: Right.

SANFORD: Some people say, no, maybe he paid too little in the way of taxes. They get it. He's a real estate developer. I think it's, again, less about his returns and more about the larger notion of what happens with gubernatorial candidates, what happens with Senate candidates, what happens with other presidential candidates.

LEMON: Thank you, congressman. I appreciate you joining me this evening.

SANFORD: My pleasure.

LEMON: Coming up, Donald Trump reaches out to African-American voters stating his case in a very Trump way.


TRUMP: What the hell do you have to lose? Give me a chance. (CRWOD CHEERING)

I'll straighten it out. I'll straighten it out. What do you have to lose?




LEMON: Donald Trump reaching out to African-American and Latino voters tonight.

I want to bring in now Charles Blow, op-ed columnist for The New York Times, and Bruce LeVell of the National Diversity Coalition for Trump. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. I want you to both take a listen to Trump tonight speaking specifically to African-American voters.


TRUMP: We are also going to reject the bigotry of Hillary Clinton who sees people of color only as votes and not as human beings worthy of a better future.


Our government has totally failed our African-American friends. What do you have to lose? I will straighten it out. I'll bring jobs back.


We'll bring spirit back. We'll get rid of the crime. You'll be able to walk down the street without getting shot. Right now you walk down the street, you get shot.

Look at the statistics. We'll straighten it out. If you keep voting for the same failed politicians, you will keep getting the same results. They don't care about you. They just like you once every four years. Get your vote and then they say, bye-bye.


[22:45:09] LEMON: Sorry. Charles, is there any truth to what he's saying that democrats take black votes for granted, black people for granted?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first let's back up and with a -- you started with a question of whether or not this is outreach. I don't believe that it is. You said that he was reaching -- he was speaking to black voters. I don't believe that he was.

I believe he was speaking to the people in that room. This is a speech designed specifically for white people and not for black people. It is designed for moderate white people who want to vote for someone who they don't want to believe that they're racist, they look for a reason to stick with Donald Trump.

This is designed for people who are kind of set in their ways and believe the set of stereotypes he is pushing out. This is not about us. This is not about us.


LEMON: Listen, I think we should talk about that. But again, do you think that democrats take black votes for granted?

BLOW: This is what I will say about parties because I've written so much about how both parties have failed the black communities, right? But this is what the history that is missing here. If you walked into any room 100 years ago, every black person in there would have been a republican.

But during the southern strategy, the Republican Party basically said we no longer want you, we want the people who hate you. They called them Negrophobes, that is what they told The New York Times magazine, this is on the record.

We, the more democrats, the blacks that we push to the Democratic Party, the more we will attract the Negrophobe, whites in the south. This was their strategy. So, then to leave out that history of how you pushed out the people who had been loyal to you, this is the party of Lincoln, in order to attract the people that hated them, that is -- you can't leave that part of that history out.

LEMON: And there is a history with both parties, Bruce, as he points out.


LEMON: I mean, if you want to look at the reality now, he has just 2 percent of the black vote. That's according to McClatchy/Marist poll.

LEVELL: It doubled.

LEMON: That is a steep hill to climb. Bruce?

LEVELL: Yes. Well, first of all, Don, the answer to the question you were trying to get from him is yes, the democrats have failed the black community, so I'll answer that for you, Charles, since you didn't answer that for him.

And case in point, reason being, a lot of the cities that Mr. Trump is referring to has been under democrat leadership for 50, 60, 30, 40 years and it's not working. So, the question is, sir, is that, you know, you've had your chance. You played the fiddle but now it's time for Donald Trump to come in and bring in another voice and a new life and just like you said, give us a chance.

What do you have to lose? Because it's not working right now. So, the answer is yes, they have, Don, they have failed. LEMON: Yes. So, what is it about, what is it specifically do you

think, Bruce, that makes Donald Trump more apt and a better ally of African-Americans than Hillary Clinton is?

LEVELL: Well, I think, well, I'm a businessman, and once again, I'm a volunteer. I don't work for the campaign. But I will tell you this. The attractiveness to Donald Trump is the fact that he is a very proven and very good businessman for many, many years. Been out in the public for 40-plus years.

And I've always said this, to what better way to vet someone who has been all over the public for many, many years from you've seen him everywhere. He's been on all kinds of shows. And, you know, that ability to be successful and go through a lot of different economic downturns, and sustain and build a good business, that is very appealing and very attractive to people especially in a lot of communities that has -- you know, we have a potential to put a man in office that has that strong business background. That is very appealing.

LEMON: Yes. Charles, you write in your op-ed in part, you says "Trump says this is an area where the Republican Party must do better. Can the GOP do better with this nominee?" Sorry. I don't have the -- sorry. I don't have that, but it's on the screen and I can't read it because the monitor is too small.

But Donald Trump I think is the paragon of racial, ethnic and religious hostility. He is the hobgoblin of retrograde racial hegemony. So? Sorry. I don't have that, I don't the quote with me. But, anyway, what do you -- what do you think of that, why did you say that?

BLOW: Well, because over -- what this businessman has done over the entire history of his life, in addition to the 14 or 15 months of this campaign, is to use bigotry and hostility as a tool to get ahead, right. And that started from the very first time that most people were introduced to Donald Trump, he was being sued by the Justice Department for anti-black bias, his rental department.

[22:50:00] And he continued and continued and continued, taking out ads against the Central Park 5 when they were just teenagers, calling for the reinstatement of the death penalty.

It just continues his entire life. And if you have -- if this is a person who's supposed to be egalitarian, this is a businessman who's supposed to be using his business acumen to advance social cohesion, harmony among races, social justice. Any of that, you should be able to look over the course of his life.

He's 70 years old. You should be able to find something, many things in that life where you have stood up. Use your profile to advance that. That is not what we see.

And in fact, he fed hate to his base as long as it worked. And when it stopped working, and when it stopped working he started to pretend he had this fake appeal to minorities because now he knows he realizes he needs them.

LEMON: You don't think minorities...


BLOW: People already know who this man is.

LEMON: All right. We'll be right back. We'll continue our conversation.



TRUMP: At the end of four years, I guarantee you that I will get over 95 percent of the African-American vote. I promise you.

[22:55:00] And he says by 2020, he's going to have 95 percent of the African-American support. Why are you laughing?



LEMON: So, back with Bruce LeVell and Charles Blow. I mean, Bruce, even his running mate had to laugh at him. I mean, as we said, that's a pretty high bar.

LEVELL: Actually, it's not, Don. And I'm going to tell you the reason why. Back in June when Donald Trump announced for president, I was one of those folks, unlike (Inaudible) that said in an establishment environment and they literally laughed me out of the room.

And so, and now here we are today, you know, 16 candidates that were, you know, beat off the stage, whatever you want to call it when we're sitting right here today, 70-plus days away from him becoming the next president of the United States.

But also, Charles, I just want to say something real quick, I noticed that you didn't disagree when I said that democrats had failed policies in a lot of these cities. I'm glad you do agree with that.

LEMON: He said he's written about it before.

LEVELL: The second thing is...

LEMON: He said he's written about it before.



BLOW: Let him go, Don. he's just trying to base. You're just to base.

LEVELL: No, it's not, sir.

BLOW: I'll get to it.

LEMON: One at a time. Go ahead.

LEVELL: I get to it.

BLOW: I know your eyes, you smirk, but I get to it.

LEVELL: But here is my question since we're on the topic -- since we're on the topic of African-American subject -- that's what we're on, name one statement that you've heard Donald Trump say about African-Americans. Name one.

LEMON: Yes, I've got a short amount of time. Go ahead, Charles.

BLOW: No, first of all, I don't know I totally listen to the phrase.

LEVELL: No, no, sir. Exactly.

BLOW: No, no, first of all, be quiet. The way I was being quiet when you were talking. Right? That's how this works.

LEMON: Go ahead, Charles. We're about to run out of time.

BLOW: So, here's the deal.

LEVELL: Name one.

BLOW: Here's the deal.

LEVELL: No, no, name one.

LEMON: Bruce, it's his turn.

BLOW: You want to talk about race -- you talk to him.

LEMON: Bruce, let him.

BLOW: Because I won't do that.

LEMON: OK. If he doesn't want to answer your question you don't have to do that.

BLOW: OK. I won't do that. All right.

LEMON: Go ahead, Charles.

BLOW: Because he can't. That's why. Thank you.

LEMON: Charles, Charles.

BLOW: Who is this person? And why is he on TV?

LEVELL: Why are you on TV?

BLOW: Listen. Here's the deal, right? So Donald Trump is a bigot. There's no other way to get around it. LEVELL: Wow.

BLOW: Anybody who supports, accepts that, supports it. Anybody who supports it is promoting it. And that makes you a part of the bigotry itself. Now you have to decide whether or not you want to be part of the bigotry that is Donald Trump.

You have to decide whether you want to be part of the sexism and misogyny that is Donald Trump. You have to decide whether you want to be part of the bullying that would allow him to make fun of one of my disabled colleagues at The New York Times. You have is to decide that.

There is no other space for you. There is no place for you to say, I'm going to put that to the side because I believe in conservative principles. I can't put that to the side because I believe that I do not want to vote for Hillary.

You have to make a decision because your party has now decided that this is the person, this con man is your front man. And you have to decide whether or not you're going to follow that.

LEMON: That's a lot. First, I'm literally running out of time. So, go ahead, I'll give you the last word.

LEVELL: Well, Charles, you know, I'm sorry you can't answer the question because you know that you can't. You know...


BLOW: I don't know you, and I don't want to talk to you and I don't want to answer your question.

LEVELL: OK. Well, that's fine.

BLOW: Give me question somebody else who is interested -- because I don't.

LEMON: Bruce, make your point. And this is your final point, Bruce. Go ahead.

LEVELL: Well, the point is we knew back last year that the Clinton campaign was going to try to bait and create, this false facade of Donald Trump being someone that he's not.

BLOW: I'm not part of the Clinton campaign.

LEVELL: And -- well.

BLOW: I'm a black man in America

LEVELL: I hope -- OK.

BLOW: And I know a bigot when I see a bigot. And you are supporting a bigot and that makes you part of the bigotry that's Donald Trump.

LEVELL: I know someone who doesn't tell the truth on national TV when I see it, sir.

BLOW: Right. And I know this. A bigot is a bigot. You're supporting a bigot. That makes you part of the bigotry. And you are part of the problem that black America faces. That what black people don't need is not somebody to solve our problems like we are some sort of algebraic equation. What black people need is dismantling...


LEVELL: We are trying to -- Charles.

BLOW: ... and that is not what Donald Trump is offering.

LEVELL: Charles, Charles.

BLOW: And that means I don't have to answer your questions.

LEVELL: Charles.

BLOW: Which -- because you're not the moderator here. You're not the person who is asking...


LEVELL: OK. But you can't sit on national TV...


BLOW: No, no, no,

LEVELL: ... you can't sit on national TV and call someone a racist, sir.

BLOW: I called him a bigot and I called you a supporter of that bigotry, and therefore part of that bigotry. And you are part of what the problem with African-Americans.

LEMON: Let him get in. Let him get in. Go ahead, Bruce.

BLOW: Yes, I said that to you.

LEVELL: Charles, I'm sorry that you're so misinformed and, you know.


BLOW: No, I'm correcting that.

LEMON: Let him finish.

LEVELL: You know, it's so sad. Here we are with so much going on with terror going on, we don't know who's going to strike us. We're $19.4 trillion in debt. We paid $160 billion out in student loan payments which is killing the retail.

We haven't had a decent GDP, 1.2 percent was what we had since the Great Depression. You know, our nation is crumbling. And the only thing we could keep bringing up is this stuff about race all the time that's totally false.

BLOW: And that's also called a deflection because you do not want to understand...


[23:00:03] LEVELL: No, because I would like to debate, I would like to debate substance and policies instead of -- instead of fantasy.

LEMON: I've got to run. You're like 4 minutes overdue. You guys want to take a break or you want to get to the top of the hour the producers tell me now. All right.