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Don Lemon Tonight
Trump and Clinton Battling for Florida; Trump Attacks Rising Obamacare Costs; Oprah Winfrey Supports Hillary Clinton; Clinton Leading in Polls Two Weeks Before Election Day; Interview with Michael Moore. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 25, 2016 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: That's all the time we have. Thanks for watching. CNN TONIGHT with Don Lemon starts now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: A few weeks ago, Donald Trump has plenty of fight left in him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Did you see where Biden wants to take me to the back of the barn? Me? He wants me. I'd love that. I'd love that. Mr. Tough guy, you know, he's Mr. Tough guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But is he blowing his best line of attack against Hillary Clinton?
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Trump and Clinton battling for every last vote in the crucial swing vote of Florida today and Trump begins the day with an attack on ObamaCare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: All of my employees are having a tremendous problem with ObamaCare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But then he says this to Fox News.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
TRUMP: We don't even use ObamaCare. We don't want it. The people don't want it, and I spend more money on health coverage but we don't use it.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON: Meanwhile, in the wake of the news that ObamaCare premiums could skyrocket 22 percent, Hillary Clinton is pretty light on specifics.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, we're going to make changes to fix on problems like that.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON: But is there more trouble in store for the Clinton campaign from WikiLeaks?
We have a lot to discuss. Let's get right to it with former Trump campaign manager, Mr. Corey Lewandowski, and CNN's Mr. Preston, and Ms. Gloria Borger with us, as well.
Good evening to all of you.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi.
LEMON: Corey, I'm going to start with you. I want to play a clip. This is from 2014, an interview of Donald Trump by a reporter and Trump biography, Michael DeAntonio, the audio obtained by CNN. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I was a rebellious kind of person. I don't like to talk about it actually. But I was a very rebellious person and a very set in my ways.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In eighth grade?
TRUMP: And I loved to fight. I always loved to fight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A physical fight?
TRUMP: Yes, all kinds of fight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arguments?
TRUMP: All types of fights. Any kind of fight. I love it including fist fights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, he likes to fight. He's a fighter. We know that. You said, you know, he said he's a counter-puncher, but I'm wondering if that's a double-edge sword. Because he's fought with, you know, in business he's fought in the campaign, he's fought, been fighting with minorities, Gold Star parents, everyone. Is that a double-edge sword?
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I love fighters. You know why? Because I want him to fight for me. I want him to fight for the underdog. I want to fight for the American people. I want Donald Trump to go out and make people proud to be an American again.
And what he's talked about in his campaign is America first. Let's have somebody fights for us for a change.
LEMON: My question, though, does he sometimes fight with the wrong people? Because you can't fight with everyone.
LEWANDOWSKI: You can't fight with everybody, but you know, if he's elected president of the United States, I want him fighting for us. I want him fighting Putin, I want him fighting ISIS, I want him fighting -- I want him fighting to get our money back from NATO. That's what I want. That's what the American people want. Fighting is great. People love fighters.
LEMON: You said Putin. You think he's going to fight against Putin.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWANDOWSKI: He's going to fight Putin.
LEMON: I thought that was a 'bromance' going on between him and Putin.
LEWANDOWSKI: Look, you're going to fight Putin, he's going to fight the U.N. who's been, you know, taking our money, we're not getting what we need every chance we get, you're got to fight the bureaucrats in Washington, you got to fight the swamp.
Let's get a fighter in there for a change, let's get the American people in place for a change.
LEMON: So, Mark, let's discuss more about this. There's been a little war of words going on speaking of fighting between Vice President Joe Biden and Donald Trump. It started after Access Hollywood tape where he talks about being able to grab women, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: He said because I'm famous, because I'm a star, because I'm a billionaire, I can do things other people can't. What a disgusting assertion for anyone to make.
(APPLAUSE)
The press always ask me don't I wish I were debating him? No, I wish we were in high school and I could take him behind the gym, that's what I wish.
TRUMP: Did you see where Biden wants to take me to the back of the barn? Me. He wants me. I'd love that. I'd love that. Mr. Tough guy. You know, he's Mr. Tough guy.
You know what he's Mr. Tough guy? When he's standing behind a microphone by himself. That's when he wants me. He wants to bring me to the back of the barn, oh, some things in life you could really love doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mark, what -- what the heck is going on here?
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: It's awesome, isn't it?
MACDONALD: Yes, it is.
PRESTON: Let's go -- let's go with the theme of fighting because I've been thinking a lot about this, you know, since this war of words happened or so a couple of hours ago. A couple of things, strong personalities.
[22:04:59] This is bare-knuckle politics at its best on two levels, on a policy level. Joe Biden, what he'll be remembered for his time in the Senate, you know, if for a lot of different things.
But specifically he was basically the guy who got the Violence Against Women's Act passed back in 1994 that since been re-authorized several times. So, the idea that like he's fighting for women, like he takes that to his heart.
The second thing is, this is a classic warfare fight. Joe Biden, he's a blue collar guy he looks at Donald Trump and thinks that he has a silver spoon in his mouth and he's an elitist. And you know what; I want to knock his teeth down.
At the same time you have Donald Trump looking at Joe Biden saying who is this hack? He spent all his time in Washington and who is he to say, you know, that he's going to take me behind the barn. So, it really has that underlining of class warfare there.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Can I say one more thing?
LEMON: I think a little old boy for the testosterone ting. Go ahead.
BORGER: Yes, there is a testosterone thing going on. This is Joe Biden's last campaign also. Let's think about that. He's not running and he thought about it as we all know and maybe he regrets it that he didn't run.
But he's out there on the stump, and this is his moment, also, and it's on behalf of Hillary Clinton, but as Mark was saying, the Violence Against Women Act is his landmark piece of legislation, and what he is saying publicly about the language being a disgrace, he's also saying privately.
This is what Joe Biden believes and he is out there on the stump in his last moment in elected office campaigning on behalf of Hillary Clinton but also more important to him -- I wouldn't -- maybe not more important -- but just as important to him is the moment that this represents for him on the political spectrum of women and violence, and this is something he cares about and it's something he can give voice to and has given voice to, and what better place to do it than in his last days on the stump.
LEMON: But here we are though, talking about this when ObamaCare premiums are going to go up in this case by 25 percent.
BORGER: Yes.
LEMON: Even more. I'm just wondering if this was a perfect opportunity, Gloria, and then I'll get Corey to weigh in on this issue.
BORGER: Sure.
LEMON: For him to talk about that it really hit Hillary Clinton on that.
BORGER: It did.
LEMON: And it's a missed opportunity by saying, Joe Biden.
BORGER: Right. And in an interesting interview with Rush Limbaugh today, I thought Trump was honest, completely honest about it and I'm paraphrasing but he said, you know, some of my advisors want me to talk about the issues and not to fight back.
And he was talking about the women making accusations against him for groping, et cetera, and he said, but you know, I have to fight back. And what his, some of his advisors are saying and Corey can speak to this better than I can, is his advisers are saying you have to talk about these issues.
This is a gift basket for you. This question of ObamaCare handed to you on a silver platter.
LEMON: Well, that's what I -- that was my initial question to Corey.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: So you ought to take advantage of it.
LEMON: But he said, you know, he likes a fighter. I' just wondering he can't fight against everything because sometimes -- sometimes you have to stay on message.
But Corey, I want to play this for you and then I'll let you respond. This is Donald Trump what he said about ObamaCare at a rally this morning. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So, we're going to repeal and replace ObamaCare and I can say all of my employees are having a tremendous problem with ObamaCare.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. The problem is this, this is according to Trump that he gives those employees insurance. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump, do you provide health insurance plans to all these employees?
TRUMP: ObamaCare is a disaster it. It's got to be repealed and replace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Don, do you provide health insurance to all these employees.
TRUMP: I do. I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, none of them are on ObamaCare?
TRUMP: Some of them, but most of them, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, So, Corey, then his resort manager later told the press that Trump provides insurance to well over 90 percent of resort employees. Donald Trump went on Fox a short time after and he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't use much ObamaCare, I must be honest with you because it's so bad for the people and they can't afford it. Unlike, for instance, in Trump national Doral in Miami and we don't even use ObamaCare. We don't want it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, that's actually not how ObamaCare works and his employees aren't even on ObamaCare. He provides their insurance. Does it make -- it seems like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
It either shouldn't he know what he's talking about before he goes out -- and again, as I said, perfect opportunity for him to hit Hillary Clinton on but he's not even centered on his message.
LEWANDOWSKI: Look, I think there's two things on this, right. Number one, he has a company that's large enough that provides healthcare for 90 percent of his employees. That's a great benefit to those employee, and we -- he should be commended for that because most companies don't have that privilege.
But what we do know is in the state of Florida if you're on the Humana plan, under ObamaCare, your premiums are going to go up 36.8 percent.
LEMON: No doubt. You're absolutely right. It's going to go up and it's awful that people are going to have to pay that.
But the question is shouldn't he know what he is talking about when he is out there talking about ObamaCare and the bad parts of ObamaCare?
[22:10:00] LEWANDOWSKI: Sure, I think that's absolutely right. He has to know that. But what he also has to know is that today in Florida 1.5, three million residents in the state are going to use the healthcare that is known as ObamaCare, their premiums are going to go up on average 19 percent.
But if you're on Humana plan, it's 36.8 percent, that is a devastating number.
LEMON: Yes, that is a lot of money.
LEWANDOWSKI: And here's the issue. Hillary Clinton has not address this. Donald Trump was outtalking about this. What she said it was HillaryCare, before it was ObamaCare. Today, we see these premiums going through the roof in some states like Arizona, 117 percent increase. Hillary Clinton is silent on this. And what we know is that her e-mails has talked...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: She's just not very specific on it.
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, what we know is also Donald Trump has laid out a plan and what he said was let's buy health insurance across state lines. That's one simple solution. We need to fix this problem. You cannot saddle people with a 37 percent increase in their premiums.
LEMON: I want to go to Colin Powell. Either of you want to respond, Gloria or Mark before I move on?
BORGER: No. Look, I think it's a political issue for Donald Trump if he can stay on message.
LEMON: Yes.
BORGER: That's it.
PRESTON: It could be effective one.
LEMON: Yes. It could be effective. And he has to know what he's talking about when he's hitting this issue, which is an issue that he could hit Hillary Clinton hard on...
BORGER: Sure.
LEMON: ... because she is, you know, she wants to continue the Barack Obama's legacy.
BORGER: Sure.
LEMON: So, Gloria, today, the former Secretary of State Colin Powell said that he'll vote for Hillary Clinton. Is it a big deal?
BORGER: It's a big deal only because we read when his private e-mails were hacked that he said about Hillary Clinton, everything she touches -- -- it shows some kind hubris, right? I mean, that was, that's I'm paraphrasing. So, he has criticized Hillary Clinton silently...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I think he says he sort of screws it up with steps on it with her own hubris.
BORGER: Steps on it with own hubris. He's also called Trump a disgrace. So, I think he's made his choice and I think so in that sense it's not really a surprise given what he said about -- about Donald Trump and given the fact that he did back Barack Obama.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Corey. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Gloria. I appreciate it.
When we come right back, more trouble for Clinton, the Clinton campaign over WikiLeaks and why Donald Trump says the stolen e-mails are also bad news for President Obama.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Donald Trump wasting no time today, slamming the ObamaCare rate hikes.
A lot to talk about with Frank Bruni, the columnist in the New York Times, and Bill Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard.
Good evening, gentlemen.
Donald Trump is on the trail trying to take advantage of what he hopes will be the October surprise, ObamaCare rate hikes. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You saw what happened yesterday, the rates are going through the sky. We all knew that. I knew it before it was passed. I've been saying this for a long time.
My first day in office, I'm going to ask Congress to put a bill on my desk getting rid of this disastrous law and replacing it with reforms that expand choice, freedom, affordability. You're going to have such great healthcare at a tiny fraction of the cost, and it's going to be so easy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Bill Kristol, the increases are staggering. This is a message very popular with republicans. Are you glad to see Donald Trump pushing hard on this even if it's in his own unique way?
BILL KRISTOL, THE WEEKLY STANDARD EDITOR: It looks that the message is popular with independents in a normal campaign this would be exactly the message you would use as a republican candidate having already gotten 90 percent of republican voters to say to independents, hey, look we're both interested in improving healthcare in America.
But look at democrat's way of doing it, typical their government program doesn't work, huge premium increases, driving out insurance companies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
It's a very standard. I think polls are correct. Conservative argument in a normal republican candidate would have been making it for months and could be making it today, but Donald Trump really can't.
LEMON: You don't think, and why can't he?
KRISTOL: Well, you showed earlier in the show he doesn't know anything about healthcare the he confuses everything when talking about how his employees have Obama or on ObamaCare.
Now there is an argument that ObamaCare is driving up premiums for private insurance -- for you know, for company-provided insurance, you got to make that argument. But his employees are not on ObamaCare, because ObamaCare is an individual insurance market.
So, but again, the normal candidate would have become -- would have made himself or herself versed enough in the issues that when a news story like this broke, he -- he or she would either know enough or would study enough to be able to get on this issue or make a coherent argument, stay on it for several days. They would laid the groundwork for it for the last two or three months. Trump's done none of that.
LEMON: Yes. Frank, you have to know what you're talking about if you want to make the argument.
FRANK BRUNI, NEW YORK TIMES COLUMNIST: Yes. I think I heard Bill say three or four or five times a normal candidate, a normal candidate. And that's really what we have.
He's not a normal candidate. He doesn't know the details of ObamaCare. He doesn't know what he has proposed as an alternative and I don't think he's proposed much that's coherent.
I mean, he says it's going to be so great, it's going to be and easy. Where are the details? He can't speak about them. And Gloria has said earlier, he can't stay on message either. you know, it's a minute on ObamaCare and he's swerving to the polls or they're rigged or whatever.
You need to be able -- you need to know the details, you need to know the details, you need to be stay on message. You need to be and as Bill said, a normal candidate. And then this is a great closing issue.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: But it's not going to work for him.
LEMON: I want to read something to you, because this is a New York Times story today. An interview with Donald Trump, it's back in 2014. It's Michael DeAntonio, a reporter and a biography.
A snippet from the interview, he says. He said, "For the most part you can't respect people because most people aren't worthy of respect, Frank." Does that what of you explain some of Trump's behavior and comments during this campaign season?
BRUNI: Well, it sure seems to because he's insulted just about everyone. I mean, the times keep on updating that incredible spread, it's online of all of the people he's insulted. Yes, I'm in there, I'm in there. It's not even a badge of honor
anymore because it's just it's such a big crowd. But you can only insult that many people if you have that philosophy that most people don't deserve reserve -- don't deserve respect.
And I think more than anything else, more than any issue, that's why this ObamaCare thing isn't that big in these closing weeks, more than anything else, it's the way Donald Trump treats other people, it's the viciousness, the vulgarity, that is losing him this election and that is why so many voters are turning away.
LEMON: Yes. When you...
(CROSSTALK)
KRISTOL: You know, Don -- Don...
LEMON: Go ahead, Bill.
KRISTOL: The line that jumped out to me from that New York Times story, the portion in which I read earlier online was, this interview from 2014, friendly interview it seemed like for someone who is writing a biography of Trump and he was cooperating at all, and he says he doesn't respect any people or most people.
But he also, I think he's ask who are your heroes. Kind of very standard question that if you've been around for a long time you either have a -- either you have a true answer but you actually have heroes, or you have a prepared answer in your mind of people whom you should say are heroes because other people think they are, they behave heroically.
He said I don't have any heroes. That's extremely revealing. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I'm sure a psychiatrist could go on at great length about peoples' whose answer to it.
[22:20:04] The question does not pose in a hostile way who your heroes when people -- to people whose answer is I don't have any heroes.
BRUNI: I feel like if we had video of that interview with that moment, we would have seen Trump looking around the room for a mirror, you know, when he was asked who his heroes are.
LEMON: Let's -- there's more audio from the interview. Let's listen to the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Vision is the most important thing. The most-important thing is vision. The most-important thing is being able to have the proper vision and then never quitting.
You know, a lot of people say you have to -- you can never give up. Well, you can give up if you have a stupid vision. So, I always say vision is the most important thing. You need the proper vision and then you have to have the ability to get it done. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Trump's vision is one that millions find compelling and millions more see as ugly and appalling. But it got him with striking business with the most powerful job in the world, Bill.
KRISTOL: It has. I think he'll fall short. You know, look, we can debate forever why he won the nomination. I don't people really were, you know, was attracted to him, and how many -- how much the other candidates blew each other up, and so forth.
He didn't get a majority of the vote in republican primary. But, no, I do think it does show this. I mean, he did have a clear message, you know, America's going on the wrong direction, going to make America great, I'm going to build a wall, I'm going to re-negotiate the trade deals.
I don't think it's a very serious or substantive message. And ultimately, we're going in the wrong direction. But, you know, having a message speaks to no message, and having and simple and clear message often does beats a much more complex and muddied and guarded message. And I guess there are real lessons from that for democratic politics.
LEMON: Frank, I want to move on now and talk about WikiLeaks these revelations that are in there. And in the case of in exchange about Clinton's server.
First, this is a Clinton aide e-mails to communication director, Jennifer Palmieri. It says, "Jen, you probably have more on this, but it looks like POTUS just as he found out HRC was using her personal e- mail when he saw it in the news."
Then the e-mail makes its way to the top Clinton Clinton advisor, and he turn to Cheryl Mills, and writes to campaign manager -- she writes campaign manager John Podesta, "We need to clean this up. He has e- mails from her. They do not say state.gov."
So, Trump has proven that President Obama was in on this e-mail scandal. The White House is saying that the president didn't know the details. Who of the setup, who is right here?
BRUNI: No, I don't know who is right. But what I do know is that this would be an enormous issue in these closing weeks of the campaign if it weren't for Donald Trump.
It's fascinating to me that Hillary Clinton has always said during her career that she gets to short end of the stick with the media and I think she's often been right about that. But she's catching an enormous break here in these final weeks of the campaign, which is this WikiLeaks story, and all the e-mails we're seeing and some of what they show us.
I think that would be dominating your newscast right now if her opponent was not Donald Trump, someone who every day, in every way, provides juicier fodder, bigger scandals, greater outrages. And so, we're not even going to end up having to sort through all that
and that's not going to have much of an impact because there's this bigger presence in the race, there's bigger scandal whatever, which is Donald Trump.
LEMON: Bill, is Frank right that, you know, he is -- he sort of steps on his own message? But even today when he got off -- when he -- I think he got off the plane in Florida, and he said getting right to the issues. He said, I was just watching one of the news channels and they're saying that there weren't that many news people here, the crooked news media, and you're like, OK, the ObamaCare, where is that? You know what I mean.
KRISTOL: More fundamentally, as Frank is suggesting, Trump is the issue because about 60 percent of Americans don't think he's basically fundamentally qualified or fit to be president.
And once you make that judgment, you can have an opponent who's behave foolishly with the server, and you can have e-mails that are embarrassing, you can have ObamaCare failing, you can have American troops fighting again in Iraq, you know, maybe testimony of a failed foreign policy which she was to.
I mean, if you would have said a year ago to me, hey, here's what's going to happen in the last month of the campaign, a huge amount of embarrassing e-mails coming about the democratic nominee, ObamaCare, the single most important achievement of the proceeding democratic administration blowing up in effect.
And the troops fighting in Iraq, the place where that Obama was so proud to get us out of ISIS in Iran, and all this stuff going on in the world, I would have said gee, you know, republicans have a pretty good choice of winning. And after two terms of a democrat, and usually voters want a change after two terms.
You know, I would have said gee, the republicans have a pretty good chance of winning this election. Donald Trump however does not have a good chance of winning this election.
LEMON: Bill and Frank, thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
Up next, you can probably guess who Oprah wants to, wants you to vote for, but you may be surprised to hear just what she has to say about Hillary Clinton.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: There's no surprise that Oprah Winfrey supports Hillary Clinton, but you may be surprised to hear what else she says about the candidate.
Oprah sat down for an hour-long interview with Bishop T.D. Jakes on his nationally syndicated talk show. Here's part of that.
OPRAH WINFREY, ACTRESS: There really is no choice, people.
T.D. JAKES, THE POTTER'S HOUSE BISHOP: Yes.
WINFREY: All the people sit around and talking about they can't decide. There's not a person in the room who hasn't been in the same conversation where people says, I just don't know if I like her.
JAKES: Yes.
WINFREY: She's not coming over to your house.
(APPLAUSE)
You don't have to like her. You don't have to like her. Do you like this country?
JAKES: I hear you.
WINFREY: You do you like this country? You better get out there and vote.
JAKES: I love this country.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Joining me now, T.D Jakes, Bishop T.D. Jakes, the author of "Destiny Step into Your Purpose." It's so good to have you on. How you doing?
JAKES: I'm doing real good, Don. Thank you for making room for me.
LEMON: Yes. Congratulation on -- you're quite welcome. Congratulations on Oprah. That was part of your interview with her. It's going to air on Thursday.
T.D Jakes It was a great interview.
LEMON: Yes. It was. It's getting out Thursday. She's of course, talking about her endorsement of Hillary Clinton. You don't have to like, she's saying, to vote for her. What did she mean by that?
JAKES: Well, first of all, Don, it was very interesting. It's a profile interview. We cover her life. We really brought her on and to celebrate 30 years since she got on talk show, so we talked about every facet of life.
When she got to that I really didn't even ask her a question about Hillary Clinton, but she said you don't have to like her because she knows that so many people find Mrs. Clinton not likeable, or should I say some people do.
[22:30:06] And she's responding to this narrative in this conversation that she thinks is prevalent in the country that's giving some people angst about voting for her as a -- as a presidential candidate.
LEMON: Yes. So, back in 2007, we, you know, Oprah famously -- she was still on TV, then famously endorsed Barack Obama for president. It was a bit different then her endorsement of Hillary Clinton. Let's watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, ACTRESS: It is the same question that our nation is asking, are you the one? Are you the one? I'm here to tell you, Iowa, he is the one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I was caught -- I just caught myself. Oprah was -- is still on television. She had her show then the Oprah Winfrey show then. Does that -- but does endorsement that tone strike you as different than the Hillary Clinton endorsement?
JAKES: It's totally different to me. I mean, she's out on the trail for President Obama. She was really open and adamant about it, the atmosphere was set in such a way that she traveled extensively with him. As far as I know she has not done with that Hillary Clinton.
This kind of just popped out of the conversation in a very organic sort of way and a bit of a humorous sort of way if you saw the way she did it in humorous way. But she goes on to say several comments about her thoughts and her concern about when to say something if at all, because there was such an acrimonious atmosphere and the vitriol was so thick. She says she wasn't sure that her voice could be heard above the rhetoric there that prevalent...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I have that if you want to -- if you want to play. Let's play it.
JAKES: Sure.
LEMON: Because and maybe that speaks to her that you said it was organic, maybe that speaks to, you know, how strongly she feels about it. But here she is talking about you said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: The reason why I haven't been vocal of him I'm with her, is because I didn't know what to say that could actually pierce through all the noise and the chaos and the disgusting vitriol that's going on and actually be heard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And now she's saying it on your show. So, what do you make of that?
JAKES: Well, you know, it's interesting. I think we're down to the last two weeks and really everybody is talking about it whether you're Oprah Winfrey or Sally Johnson. How could you live in America and not be caught up in this conversation on a way or the other? Don, I have remained publicly non-partisan and really didn't know that
this was going to come up in the interview. I can understand where everybody has got an opinion, the cabdriver, everybody is talking about this election.
LEMON: Oh, yes.
JAKES: Oprah is on another level, though. Because when she says something it carries a different level of weight and force behind it because she has been in America's homes for 30 years. There are many, many people who might give it much more credence than they would the taxi cabdriver.
She covers the breadth and the length of it. Because what we were really talking about were women's issues and where she sees women going in the country and what's happening in the workplace.
And out of that question, this conversation moved in that direction. She has really been a ceiling breaker herself, and so, I was curious to see what her thoughts were and what her narrative would be about women moving into positions of leadership not just in the government but all across the country.
And what does that mean for the country and what adjustments do we need to make to make the playing floor level and equitable for all people.
LEMON: Something tells me you've done this before. Or maybe you're looking at my notes here because that's exactly what I want to talk to you about next. Hillary Clinton -- Oprah spoke about Hillary Clinton and shattering this glass ceiling. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: Well, I see that we're about to have a woman president, I see that.
(APPLAUSE)
And that means the ceiling has been shattered for all times for every other woman to rise to. You know, the whole purpose of fame, notoriety, celebrity, power, brokers and makers in my opinion is to let the rest of the world know that is possible.
And when you can look at somebody who has done something like Hillary Clinton's about to do, done something that extraordinary, what it speaks to is what it is within yourself that can do the same. It means that is possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, do you get the sense that, Bishop, that she relates to her personally as two women who have shattered glass ceilings?
JAKES: You know, I kind of look at it this way and I don't want to speak for Oprah because I don't know what her intention really was, but I kind to think that she was kind of saying something similar to what people of color were saying when President Obama was elected that it was the first time in the history of this country that black and brown children could look at the barrage of presidents and leadership and see anybody that remotely looked like them.
[22:35:01] And that principle alone made it possible for little children to grasp the notion that it is possible in this country to move into that realm of leadership.
But I posted something I believe in Time magazine at the time that President Obama was elected, I said we have to move quickly beyond the fanciful notions of this historical moment as illustrious and amazing as it is, because we have real problems.
And I think that is also true now, whether Hillary Clinton becomes president or Donald Trump or whoever, there's much to be dealt with in this country. I'm really more concerned about whoever gets into that office how they unify the nation and never seen us to close to the edge in terms of dissention and aggravation and turmoil.
And then when you look at the economy still is needing to continue to grow, we have global unrest and I think while that is very, very important that little girls be able to see themselves, white, black, brown children can see representative of themselves in every aspect of our government.
What we really need is a great leader. And I hope that America is looking for a great leader and not just a personality.
LEMON: What is your -- we heard what she had to say about Hillary Clinton. What did she -- did she say anything about Donald Trump?
JAKES: No, not -- not by name at all. No, she didn't really mention him. Because again, this was not really a forum. It really was a profile piece on her life, but you can't talk about women shattering ceilings to an Oprah and it not come up in because in reality she has shattered so many ceilings herself.
And I think that point of reference became relevant in the interview because she knows what it is to be the under and to be underestimated, and to be marginalized as a woman and a woman of color, born in Mississippi in abject poverty.
She had a long fight to get to where she is and we've talked about that fight building on, coming on the air with her talk show, many other accomplishments, building schools in South Africa.
And one of the things that I thought was really notable, because we have known each other so long, I have never seen Oprah give an interview, an hour-long interview that comfortable that relaxed.
And it really did me feel like and interview. It felt like we were in Starbucks someplace having a cup of coffee.
So, I don't think this is a political statement like the prepared statement that you just played with President Obama. This is just two people having a conversation.
LEMON: Yes.
JAKES: That the cameras overheard.
LEMON: Well, I think it was very -- and that's because you have gotten so great at this talk show thing, so if you're not watching the T.D. Jakes show, you're completely missing out.
And she looks great by the way, and thank you for keeping me sane through this political process when I text you and call you after the shows.
JAKES: My prayers are all over everybody.
LEMON: What did I do?
JAKES: I'm praying for everybody.
LEMON: Thank you, Bishop. I appreciate you coming on.
JAKES: Thanks for having me. Take care.
LEMON: When we come right back, Michael Moore tells me why it took a candidate like Donald Trump to get him to support Hillary Clinton.
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. I think you're really going to like this conversation.
Two weeks to go until Election Day and the polls are in Hillary Clinton's favor, and there are signs that she is winning over democrats who haven't always been with her.
One of them is Michael Moore, the academy award- winning director, who new film is called, "Michael Moore in Trump Land." Thank you for coming on.
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: Thank you very much for coming having me.
LEMON: Yes. Just watching your film before this, very interesting. So, we're going to talk about the film, but I want to talk some politics. Can we talk politics?
MOORE: Sure. Anything you want to do.
LEMON: OK. So, here's what you said -- you talked about in July -- we'll put that up. You haven't always been a fan of Hillary Clinton first, I want to talk about it. You were a fan of Bernie Sanders, right? She ran against Barack Obama in 2008.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: Yes. Worked for him, voted for him. And same thing with Obama. I was for him in '08. LEMON: So, why the change?
MOORE: No change. Actually ever since she was first lady I thought back then she was a remarkable woman, a lot of integrity was there to fight for the people especially with the whole healthcare thing that she was. She went to when they got -- they got elected when she was the co-president, that she thought all of us there should be universal healthcare.
And she worked so hard for that and was destroyed over it, she was attacked. They humiliated her. The whole thing went down to defeat and I thought back then -- this was 1993, '94, man, you know, there is somebody that cares about the people and is willing to put her head on the chopping block for it.
So, I've always had those feelings about it. I disagree with her politically, which is why I voted for Obama in the primaries in '08 and Bernie this year because she voted for the Iraq war, she's too close to Wall Street, I mean, the things that probably any Bernie voter would tell you that we're concerned about.
LEMON: The initial things that you said about her about healthcare and what she did for the country, Donald Trump said very similar things about her until maybe a year or two ago, right, when he started to run for president.
MOORE: Yes, I actually I interviewed Trump in 1998 and I -- there's small clip of that in my film where I asked him about her and he just lavishes praise about her.
LEMON: Yes. OK. So, let's talk about it. In July you wrote this piece.
MOORE: Yes.
LEMON: Listing five reasons why you think Donald Trump will win including what you call the rust belt Brexit, the last stand of the angry white man, the Hillary problem, meaning her unpopularity, the depressed standards vote, and the Jesse Ventura effect. Basically, that people can pull the lever for whoever they want in the privacy of a voting booth. So, do you think that those reasons have changed at all?
MOORE: No, those are all the reasons why if he's able to pull it off, it will be because on that day, a lot of angry white guys, a lot of guys who have actually are justifiable right to be angry, guys and women, in the Midwest, in the rust belt, who have suffered during the last -- really the last decade or two, and have had it.
[22:44:58] And they see Trump as their -- as their human Molotov cocktail that they want to just -- they want to -- to get to go in the voting booth. I mean, I know a lot. I mean, I grew up with -- I mean, I live in Michigan so I -- a lot of people see him -- not because they agree with him -- the opportunity to use him to just whip him right into the system and blow it up.
LEMON: But you say that they have a right to be, you know, upset, right?
MOORE: Yes.
LEMON: But a lot of folks have a right to be upset. I mean, minorities in this country have a right to be upset.
MOORE: Yes, absolutely.
LEMON: Women absolutely have a right to be upset. There are a lot of folks so why is it -- are they entitled to be upset because of...
MOORE: They are entitled to be upset and to be heard.
LEMON: Of more entitled, I should say.
MOORE: Not more -- not more entitled and in the past, African- Americans, women and others have actually formed movements to organize themselves politically and express their anger and run candidates and get them elected.
The white working class has not figured out a way to do that, and has reacted in this visceral sort of way and responds to the dog whistle and has been manipulated with fear of the other, whether the other is Mexicans, or Muslim or whatever.
So, Trump has very expertly figured out how to appeal people that -- that are down on their luck who used to be in the middle class and are no longer there, and I'm not saying that their response to him is right.
I'm just saying we had all better recognize it because they're -- November 8th, it's the second Tuesday of November, not the first Tuesday.
LEMON: Right, right, right.
MOORE: Usually we vote on the first Tuesday. In Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, we call the second Tuesday winter, and this is going to be about who gets out the most people to vote.
LEMON: You talk about more about this in Trump land. We'll be right back. We'll continue to discuss. Don't go anywhere.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Michael Moore's latest movie is "Michael Moore in Trump Land" and he is back with me now to talk about that. So, let's talk about this documentary now. He's a clip from it, a "Michael Moore in Trump land."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOORE: You live here in Ohio, you know what I'm talking about. Whether Trump means or not, is kind of irrelevant because he's saying the things to people who are hurting and that's why every beaten-down nameless, forgotten working stiff who used to be part of what called the middle class loves Trump.
He is the human Molotov cocktail that they've been waiting for. The human hand grenade that they can legally throw into the systems that stole their lives from them.
And on November 8th, Election Day, although they lost their jobs, although they have been foreclosed down by the bank, next came the divorce and now the wife and kids are gone, the car has been repoed, they haven't had real vacation in years, they're stuck with the ObamaCare (muted) bronze plan when you came and get a (muted) Percocet.
They have essentially lost everything they had except one thing, the one thing that doesn't cost them a cent and is guaranteed to them by the American Constitution, the right to vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, how is that different than any other struggling American of color or single mother, or -- because I asked you before...
MOORE: Yes.
LEMON: ... do they have more of a right to be upset than any -- because you know, some people say, well, now they know how it feels to be back.
MOORE: Yes. Well, I think that's a good way to put it. You have right now in America white men over the age of 35 make up only 19 percent of the population. And you know, they've been very used to a certain way which is way white guy rang the show. And those days are over.
In fact, they've been over for some time. I mean, just had two administrations of an African-American in the White House whose middle name is Hussein as their president.
You know, last month is the second year in Rhode Island (Ph) that the majority of kindergartens who entered school this past month, second year in the row now the majority of them are not white. That is the new America. That's the new America we live in.
And white people and white guys and all the white guys are going to have either get on board the train and understand that this is a wonderful country, that we are a better country for that diversity, or be used to manipulated by candidates who are trying to throw them these bones by Trump going to Detroit and saying, I'm going to put and tear any cars that Ford builds in Mexico.
LEMON: Yes. So, listen. Let's just say, I'm not saying that you are right, but just for the sake of your argument that you are right.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: I mean, I think I'm right.
LEMON: OK. For that, do they understand that they may be being manipulated, do they care?
MOORE: Well, my purpose in making this film and coming on the show another shows is to reach out to them, to help them understand what the manipulation is that's going on. To have them care, to have them understand that there is a candidate on the ballot who does care about, who's going to make this a better country for them and for everybody else. And -- and...
LEMON: That's Hillary Clinton in your view.
MOORE: That would be Hillary Clinton, yes.
LEMON: But do you think that she is speaking to this particular demographic to these folks?
MOORE: Well, yes. I think that -- I think the polls is doing -- I think the things that she stands for.
LEMON: Her rhetoric does it.
MOORE: Well, but that's what I'm here for, I mean, that's what other -- I mean, the -- you know, white guy is over 35, like me, needs to stand up and say that this woman and the feminism that she represents of what she's been through as part of that generation of women who had to suffer quite a bit to start the modern day feminine move back in the 60s and the 70s.
You know, I don't think Hillary Clinton has forgotten any of that. And I think that's all in her soul and nothing but good is going to come from it.
LEMON: Do you think it's harder when we're talking about these issues if you had -- I know what it's like to be poor. So, you know, I would want to really go back -- to go back to being poor.
[22:55:04] I think most people -- most people of color sort of know what that's like. Many women especially single mothers know what that's like to be poor. If you'd never experience that is it harder to all of a sudden wake up and the job is gone, the white picket fence is gone...
MOORE: And you've been on the suburb you had the nice big, three or four-bedroom house, you know the kids are going to be able to go to college, all those things and then suddenly that's gone, yes. I think and I think that messed up a lot of people.
And now they're working two or three jobs part time, maybe minimum wage or slightly above minimum wage and they're upset. And my message to them is yes, be upset. We have an economic system in this country that is unfair, it's unjust and it's not democratic and it benefits the few at the top.
So, you have a right to be upset to that. But there is -- there is only one candidate on the ballot who is going to fight for you on those issues. LEMON: We're over and we're going to build over because I'm going to ask you about, when I said now they know what it's like to be black in some way. And you saw that, I don't know if you saw the CNL thing with the Black Jeopardy where the black contestant and the Trump supporter had more in common than they realized.
And you talk to me in the break about people in Flint or in poor neighborhoods.
MOORE: Yes.
LEMON: Having to move back to poor neighborhood's white because they can't afford it.
MOORE: There is a school district in...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: In black neighborhood.
MOORE: .. in the north in the Flint called the Beach school district and I don't have the exact statistics but it used to be, you know 70 percent black, 30 percent white. And in the last decade during the -- during this decline and more and more white people are becoming poor.
Poor people from the suburbs have to move back in to the north in the Flint. And now the district is approaching 50-50 black and white because of poor white people that's doing this called a home.
So, in a way this assault on working people regardless of color is bringing people together. And I think again, I'm -- maybe I'm just a crazy optimist but I think they will come of this.
LEMON: Michael Moore, thank you.
MOORE: Thank you.
LEMON: "Michael Moore in Trump Land." Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. We'll be right back
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
