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Don Lemon Tonight
Unity Between GOP and Dems; Representative Scalise's Condition Improving. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 15, 2017 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: But Anderson, I want to keep you around because you have been watching at the ballpark and I have been watching you. Great job by the way. What stood out to you tonight?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: You know, I think just to see the huge turnout first of all. I mean, this is a game that I'm told usually attracts maybe 10,000 people. There were some 25,000 people said to be here. That's the last count that I got.
And you know, I think a lot of people who hadn't been to this game before but just wanted to show up not only as a sign of support but also just as a sign of sort of sending this message they are not afraid and they're not going to be coward and they wanted to be here and to take part in it.
And I think there was kind of a different atmosphere from what I understand from past years of what this game is like.
LEMON: I want to talk to you about, you know, I think there are two heroes that we haven't spoken enough about. There are a lot of heroes going around, but David Bailey and Crystal Griner and they were the two officers who really stopped this from becoming a massacre out there on the field. He threw out the first ball, Anderson. Tell us about that.
COOPER: Yes, that was incredible. I mean, to see him out there, you know, obviously the crowd just went wild and you know it was just an incredible moment. To think -- I mean, I remember, while I was watching them do that I was just thinking where he was what was it, more than, you know, some 36 hours ago and to be, you know, from that horror, from that tragedy to be on that mound thrown out the first pitch it was -- it was just extraordinary moment.
I'm not sure if he was all that happy with, you know, bouncing the ball. But it doesn't really matter. It's a, you know, he's certainly win over the crowd and there were, you know, I mean, so the first responders were heroes in this.
LEMON: Yes.
COOPER: That security detail. You know, I mean, it's horrible to even talk about but had they not been there, had those three officers not been there, I mean, you had, you know, a lot of members of Congress. You have a 10-year-old son of one member of Congress. You have aides all in the dugout, they were sitting ducks.
And it was just a lot of heroism. And every member of Congress I talked to was there that is the first thing they say that thin blue line, it was particularly thin that morning but it was strong enough to do what they had to do.
LEMON: Absolutely. The president didn't attend tonight because of security reasons but he did send a video message. How was that received by the crowd?
COOPER: You know, I checked in with Phil Mattingly who was down in the crowd because we were up on the garage kind of overlooking. So it was hard to tell exactly the response. Phil said that, you know, at the beginning of the president's message though, it kind of few boos from some democrats in the crowd.
But by the end when the president said, you know, play ball it was -- there was overwhelming cheers from all sections of it and even when, you know, some democrats were introduced there was some scattered booing.
But Phil points out that in previous years there was a lot of that, you know, that this is a playful competitive game in past years. But there was much less of that sort of booing in the other side. There was a really I think a strong show of unity here. And I think everybody in the crowd kind of really felt that.
LEMON: It wouldn't be a baseball game if there wasn't booing. I mean, you don't cheer for the other team. I think that was probably part of what should happen.
COOPER: Sure.
LEMON: Yes. Anderson, so you mentioned the president. We mentioned the president just now. That while all of this is going on there is a darkening cloud at the White House tonight.
And as you have been reporting and we have been reporting here, the Washington Post is saying special counsel is looking into Jared Kushner's business dealings. What have you been reporting on that?
COOPER: Yes. We talked to one of the reporters who broke that story to the Washington Post. You know, in some ways you can look at it as a national progression of any kind of special counsel.
I mean, there are, as Matt Rosenberg of the New York Times pointed out this is a counter intelligence investigation as well as a criminal investigation. There are a lot of moving parts to it. But certainly they are going to be looking and then apparently are looking at the financial dealings of Jared Kushner.
You know, there is the Kushner family has a building 666 fifth Avenue. It was known that he had met with not just the Russian ambassador in Trump Tower during the transition but also at the request of the Russian ambassador met with a Russian banker, a very, you know, Russian banker who has a background in intelligence training and whose bank is on the list of -- bank is under sanctions.
So there is a lot of questions about why he met with them. There were conflicting accounts according to the New York Times about that were given early on about why that meeting took place. So I think there's a lot of questions that's not perhaps too surprising to know that the special counsel would be, were looking at it.
But it certainly brings this even closer into the White House and into the inner circle of Donald Trump and the family circle of Donald Trump.
LEMON: Yes. Anderson Cooper, thank you. Great reporting. We'll let you go now. We have more business to attend to at the ballpark.
[22:05:02] And I want to bring in now live from the ballpark Congressman Mo Brooks of Alabama, a republican from Alabama. Did you do any booing tonight? Because I understand your team lost. But there really are no losers tonight so I'm going to congratulate you anyway especially after this air, this new air, let's hope it last, of bipartisanship.
MO BROOKS, (R) UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: Well, thank you. I'm disappointed. The republicans and the democrats as you can imagine are quite competitive not only in politics but also in the baseball field. And today we took a licking. Senator Richmond their pitcher was spot on. We were a little bit flat and us a relatively a lot sided score.
LEMON: Yes. So tell us what happened to the winning trophy.
BROOKS; Well, the winning trophy goes to the democrats. Thank you for reminding me of that. I think they get to hold onto it for a year. On a happier note we did have about 25,000 tickets that were sold, a crowd of similar size. That beats all past records for this charitable baseball game that the United States Congress puts on.
And that was very heartwarming for us of course to see David Bailey, I don't know if you were watching the beginning of the game.
LEMON: I was.
BROOKS: But when the players and lineups were introduced we stretched from first base to third base and we alternated republican, democrat and republican democrat. And I saw David Bailey over in foul territory near the first base, excuse me, third base dugout and the emotions compelled me to go over there.
I talked to him. I thanked him and gave him a hug. I don't normally do that but under those circumstances it was wonderful to see him and to be in a position to let him know how much I appreciated what he did.
I don't know if you know, Don, but yesterday I was in the dugout and I started hearing gunfire above and behind me. And I was immediately concerned that we might have a second shooter, another adversary to worry about. And at the same time I was doing that trying to figure out what the proper response would be. But when I looked up it was one of our guys, a good guy. That gave us
a renewed hope that we would be able to come out of the situation and then for David Bailey to do what he did to put his life at risk in order to minimize the loss of life that there otherwise and certainly would have been for a number of United States congressmen, staffers and even a 10-year-old boy.
I wanted him to know that we were as appreciative as we could possibly be and that we love him. And we hope he gets better. But in our eyes he showed tremendous courage, he is a hero.
LEMON: Yes. And he is out of the hospital, obviously, throwing the first pitch. Crystal Griner is still in the hospital tonight and the president and the first lady did visit her and her wife in the hospital last night.
But speaking as you are now, let me ask you about do you think that tonight's moment of unity between democrats and republicans will continue? And what do you say to those who are engaging in partisan finger-pointing about the shooting?
BROOKS: Well, I hope what will happen is that the general public will understand that in a way we lead dual lives. When we are in the political arena and if anyone has played sports when you are in a sports arena you are a fierce competitor. If you ever play a pack -- pick a basketball game a buddy of yours might get picked for the other team.
When you are on the basketball court you might jostle a few ribs with your elbows and you're going to compete as best you can to be able win. But once you get off the House floor, once you get off the Senate floor, once you get off that basketball court you can still interact with each other in a social environment and call the person who you compete against on that basketball court or on house floor a friend.
And I hope tonight was the message to the American people that it's fine to have this kind of political discourse, that's what republicans are all about and to have it in an election setting is fine, to have in a campaign setting is fine.
But outside of that particular arena these are our friends. These are our fellow Americans and we are all in this together. America is either going to sink or it's going to rise together. And it's important to keep in mind to have 25,000 people show up tonight that was the message from this ballpark to the American people.
LEMON: Yes. Congressman Mo Brooks of the great State of Alabama, of which I used to be a resident down in Birmingham of WBRC. Thank you so much, sir.
BROOKS: Roll tide.
LEMON: Well, I'm an LSU Tiger. So we won't go that far. Go Tigers.
BROOKS: I wore your hat a little bit today, but that was only temporary. LEMON: Yes. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. You know, just to say I need to get to Sanjay. But I want to show a wide side of our panel here. Because the same thing sort of happens because we have - we involved we have this political talk on television.
And as you can probably remember last week I tweeted out a picture of all of us in the green room and we were all talking and everyone is like, oh, my gosh, you get along and you know, there were some harsh words said. They don't realize that sometimes we go out for a beer after this.
[22:10:07] Republican, democrat or whatever you want we all actually get along. We may disagree on television, but nobody hates each other on these panels.
CHRIS CILLIZZA, POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE, CNN: You can disagree without being...
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: Well, that's a lie.
LEMON: Yes.
CILLIZZA: But you can -- look, the phrase disagree without being disagreeable.
LEMON: Yes.
CILLIZZA: It used to be a thing that we taught our kids and talked about. The congressman makes the right point which is, you can. It's fine to disagree. We have two parties for a reason.
LEMON: Right.
CILLIZZA: Brian and Amanda don't see things always exact the same way. That's fine. It doesn't mean that one of them is a terrible person and one of them is a good person. That's where we get in trouble.
LEMON: But I tell you who I always agree with and that's Dr. Sanjay Gupta because he's going to -- he's the man and he knows everything. And he is going to tell us about some encouraging news about Congressman Steve Scalise. He was injured in yesterday's shooting. He is our chief medical correspondent. Dr. Gupta, what do you know, update us on the condition at this hour.
SANJAY GUPTA,CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, there is some good news about the congressman. They say that he has improved over the last 24 hours. He is still in critical condition. And you know, I think, Don, you and I talked about this last night. People think a gunshot wound to the hip maybe not be as concerning. It can be a very serious injury. And that's why you are hearing that he has had a couple of operations and other procedures. There are blood vessels in this area. And when you got a rifle wound, a bullet wound from a rifle, that's a
high velocity injury. That means not only do you sort of follow the trajectory of the bullet and sort of figure out what the bullet did but it also creates a blast injury or cavitation injury as it's called.
So that's what the doctors have been focusing on trying to understand exactly the extent of the injuries stopping all that bleeding. And I'll point as well, Don, this is not unexpected that he would have more than one operation because sometimes you just stop operating to allow the patient to sort of recover from the operation, give some blood products back and give some clotting factors to allow the blood to clot back all of these sorts of things.
So that's what sort of going on. But the encouraging news, to your point...
LEMON: Yes.
GUPTA: ... they say he has improved over the last 24 hours, probably he needs less blood now, probably he needs less medications.
LEMON: And just because he may have other procedures, procedures don't necessarily mean surgery. There are just things that they needs to attend to, correct?
GUPTA: Right.
LEMON: Yes.
GUPTA: And there may not be things that he requires general anesthesia for and maybe a smaller type of thing.
LEMON: Got it. So, witnesses have said, Sanjay, that they saw the congressman dragging himself roughly like 15 yards shortly after the shooting. Could that possibly have affected his injuries?
GUPTA: You know, the magnitude obviously of the injury was from the bullet injury. So everything else sort of pales in comparison to that. What is interesting is that, you know, certainly he was able to do that. He was able to according to his office statement that he was stable, that he was in good spirits and he was even able to speak to his wife on a cell phone for a period of time.
But just to give you an idea of how quickly things can turn with these sorts of injuries and this is what trauma surgeons always think about. From the time that he was at that field, it was about a five to ten minute transport by helicopter to the hospital so they say he was in good spirits and talking to his wife at the field.
Five to ten minutes later he is in critical condition. And that's because of the bleeding. So that deterioration happened during that time. So whether it was the dragging, you know, himself out to the middle of the field clearly there was a lot of bleeding and his body was able to keep up for a period of time. By the time he got to the hospital he was, he needed to go to the operating room. LEMON: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much for updating us on the
congressman's condition.
GUPTA: Yes, of course.
LEMON: We appreciate it.
I think we have some breaking news now. This is about Jared Kushner, it's from our senior White House correspondent Jeff Zeleny. Jeff joins us now. The Washington Post, Jeff, reporting that special counsel is investigating Jared Kushner's business dealings. What's the response from Jared Kushner tonight?
JEFF ZELENY, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, Don, the lawyer for Jared Kushner is responding in this way. Let's take a look at this statement from Jamie Gorelick, his lawyer and she says this. "We do not know what this report refers to. It would be standard practice for the special counsel to examine financial records to look for anything related to Russia. Mr. Kushner previously volunteered to share with Congress what he knows about the Russia related matters. He will do the same if he is contacted in connection with any other inquiry."
So don, what this is all about is here the people who are close to Jared Kushner who have spoken to him say that look, this is something that is standard and routine. We knew several weeks and months ago that members of Congress this committee were interested in this. This is just simply the special counsel saying that this is part of their investigation as well.
[22:15:00] But Don, again, this drives it even closer to the Oval Office to the president. Jared Kushner, Of Course, the closest of close advisers here. He says he has done nothing wrong here and he is more than willing to share any information with the congressional committees as well as the special counsel, Don.
LEMON: All right, Jeff Zeleny, thank you very much. Also, we are going to continue to talk about this vice president lawyering up, as well tonight and my panel will discuss that.
But I want to get back to the ballpark. We're going to find some congressmen there. Congressman Barry Loudermilk and Kevin Yoder both joining us. Representative, thank you both for joining us by the way. Representative Loudermilk was at practice yesterday when a gunman opened fire seriously wounding Congressman Steve Scalise. So, how do you feel?
BARRY LOUDERMILK, (R) UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: You know, pretty exhausted right now. Most of the guys on our team had really lived a traumatizing experience yesterday. You know, we are happy to be here. We are winners because we are here. Things could have been a whole lot worse.
You know, anybody who was out there yesterday got very little sleep last night. We are just blessed we had the Capitol police there. Several shots were hitting the ground all around me throughout the entire fire fight. But you know, they drew fire away from us so we can try to help some of the wounded. And they were the true heroes.
LEMON: And Congressman Yoder, what's going on with you tonight, how do you feel?
KEVIN YODER, (R) UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I think it has been a surreal atmosphere in the last 24 hours or so. Tonight was a great opportunity for everybody to come together, we have democrats and republicans hugging and people were crying. You know, in this tragedy it brings people together.
And you really have seen Congress come together in the last day and a half or so. And tonight, you know, playing America's past time here in Washington national stadium we have had a record turnout of 25,000 people. You know, the democrats won unfortunately, but more than anything it was an opportunity to just get together, play a game of baseball and try to heal our Congress, heal the country.
You know, we're feeling going forward that this is an opportunity to really redouble our efforts at civility and working with people across the aisle and solving problems and sort of changing the tone in this country trying to get people to work together more and listen to one another.
And you know, things have just gotten so caustic that it boiled over yesterday and I think Congress is really coming together and I hope the country does, as well.
LEMON: Yes. I think you guys need a well-deserved rest. I think you are right now you're on fumes or adrenaline as they say and well- deserved. We've seen you all over television. I'm sure you probably haven't gotten a good night's rest last night.
But we appreciate you joining us tonight and we hope this spirit of bipartisanship will last in Washington and around the country. So again, thank you so much, gentlemen. I appreciate it.
LOUDERMILK: Well, you, too.
YODER: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you.
I want to bring in now CNN politics reporter and editor at large, Chris Cillizza, political analyst, Tara Palmeri, and political commentator Ryan Lizza, also political commentators Brian Fallon, Amanda Carpenter and Mike Shields. And I've got Cillizza and Lizza tonight.
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: That's right. Is that making it hard for you, Don.
LEMON: So I'm going to go to you, Ryan just because he think...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN LIZZA, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: Yes, remember that time -- remember that time you called me by Chris's name?
LEMON: I did. And he wasn't -- he wasn't even with the network.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You too?
LIZZA: I don't want to bring that up.
LEMON: So, I would like to talk about you saw the gentlemen at the ballpark there all three congressman and they're saying, you know, it's time for it to stop. How realistic is that?
LIZZA: I mean, I don't want to be pessimistic. I think it's great that people are reflecting on what happened and talking about that and maybe looking for opportunities that didn't seem so obvious before what happened yesterday.
But you know there are pretty deep differences between the two parties for a reason. I think it's going to take -- it's going to take a lot of soul searching and real effort by both sides to figure out if there are issues that just huge before haven't been obvious that can be worked on together.
Just think of the main issue that democrats want to talk about in the wake of a tragedy like this, gun violence and what to do about that. You don't see any movement on either side on that issue. And we have had, you know, shooting after shooting that just has not affected that issue.
So that's the most obvious thing that has just been stuck no matter how many times there is a tragic shooting like this. So I don't see anything changing there unfortunately. Maybe there are some other issues. You know, it's not -- it's good that people are at least talking about that maybe reflecting a little bit more.
LEMON: Amanda, I think it is interesting that you have these guys at the ballpark saying, you know, everybody needs to tone it down, ratcheting it down. And then you have a president of the United States tweeting today and really using his Twitter feed in the same way he did on just as the image, just as vocal as before the shooting. How do you reconcile the two?
[22:20:03] AMANDA CARPENTER, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: I mean, it's strange. You can see Donald Trump is like the good angel on one shoulder and the bad angel here. Good angel release that lovely video statement. Bad angel tweeting these conspiracy theories about the deep state.
I mean, look at everything that's going on with the Russia investigation. He has essentially spun a conspiracy theory about the deep state to deflect questions about Russia. This isn't just about him protecting himself. He is discrediting the American institution. He is discrediting the law enforcement. He is discrediting the people who keep us safe.
That's what I'm worried about big picture. I don't know how he gets out of this. He needs to take a step back and realize what he is doing when he is thinking he is protecting himself he is damaging an important American institution.
LEMON: Mike Shields, I know you want to respond to this. Go ahead.
MIKE SHIELDS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: Yes. I mean, the first thing I would say is the leaks are real. So you are saying it's conspiracy theory about the deep state. There is clearly a coordinating pattern. It's not like we've just one leak or two leaks. There are people. And my dad was an NSA contractor. I have deep admiration for the national security apparatus and their staff.
But there are people that are taking it upon themselves to say, you know what, I don't agree with what the voters did, I don't like the policies of this president so I'm going to leak something which by the way in other countries turns into military troop, right?
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: But here's the thing. I feel leaking...
SHIELDS: So that's the same intellectual argument that you have a choice. If you don't agree with what the government is doing of the elected people you resign from office. That's what Jim Comey actually should have done, right? Instead, we have people that decides upon themselves, I don't like what the government is doing so I'm going to do something illegal and leak it. And now we're seeing it in this investigation.
CARPENTER: And here's what we're going to find. One point, we will find out whether the leakers are leaking because they saw something and they wanted to speak out against it or they wanted to smear the president.
We're going to find it out. It will all be exposed and we will know if there are leakers that want to smear the president or there was a blower because there is a big difference.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: I would say the pattern...
LEMON: But Mike, let me ask you a question before you respond. Mike, Mike, let me just you a question before you respond. My question was about tone about can't the president say I don't like these leaks but I think everything should be investigated with the Russia situation because we need to figure out what's going on so that we can move on with the business of the country?
SHIELDS: Yes.
LEMON: Isn't it really about tone rather than...
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: You know, what I find in Washington is that a lot of people have been hung up on the president's tone since he started to run for office. And guess what, he's not going to change his tone no matter how many people on television or all of us kept talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But that's the whole point of what every single lawmaker we have had on in the wake of this shooting has said. We all need to watch our tone and tone it down.
SHIELDS: Yes.
LEMON: The change comes from the top. And if the president doesn't do it then, if he doesn't set the example.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: Right. But now you are trying to connect tone to stuff that we have seen going on and I think that's the bad connection to make.
LEMON: How is that a bad connection?
SHIELDS: Because we're talking about the tone he has about fighting back against an investigation and we're talking about members of Congress who were literally shot yesterday.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No one is saying that -- no one is saying that he is responsible for that.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: OK. I thought you're going there with that length.
LEMON: NO, no, no. No one is saying that he's responsible for that. But what I'm saying is that everyone who has come on and the congressmen who were involved in the shooting were the people who actually raise it in saying we need to watch it on social media, we need to watch it on television.
SHIELDS: Yes.
LEMON: So if the president isn't doing it why should anyone else?
SHIELDS: Look, the president right now is being attacked as an autocrat, someone who is to be resisted who shouldn't even been elected to office, who doesn't deserve to be in office. He is responding to those types of attacks.
I think that that kind of rhetoric is what's been ratcheted up and what people are saying that's what needs to be brought down.
I was talking to a reporter tonight who was unaware of how many death threats members of Congress get. I mean, we've seen the town halls that we covered on television. We had cameras on all of them because it's such a great theater to come to these town hall meetings.
In fact, what was going on to some people were taking it too far and the rhetoric was getting high and higher and higher and threatening members of Congress to the point where they are worried about their families.
CARPENTER: Well, I think that's for everyone. In the political system and you can speak to this has become high stakes everything. There are staff panels, there's global warming that is going to imperil the world. Staffers get it all the time, too. I'm sure you've been (Inaudible) and working for a high pressure...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And Brian, do you mind you guys, I need to get to a break. We went a bit long because we had the congressmen. And so everyone stick with me. We're going to continue our conversation. Also stay ahead. Much more on the report that the special counsel is investigating Jared Kushner's business dealings.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back to CNN Tonight, everyone. I'm Don lemon. We're live here in Washington.
My panel is back with me. Brian Fallon anxious to get in this whole conversation about tone and we were talking about the president's tone and tweeting.
BRIAN FALLON, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: Well, I think that the president should tone down the tweeting just for his own legal reasons. I don't think it's his best legal interest for him to continue tweeting. But in general, I think coming out of this moment where he saw so many gestures of bipartisanship today that we should set realistic goals for ourselves.
I think that if we act like suddenly democrats and republicans are going to forget their political differences we are just be setting ourselves up for disappointment. Keep in mind we have a healthcare debate that is about to resume in Congress soon.
Democrats are really upset about the process that's being run by the Senate republicans. So I'm sure that they are going to approach that at debate just as fiercely notwithstanding the attack that happened yesterday. And that's not a bad thing.
The town halls will happen again during the Fourth of July recess and August recess. That's not a bad thing either. I think a reasonable goal we could set for ourselves which I don't think is too poly-inish (Ph) is to say let's stop with the outright condoning of violence. Let's stop with the outright glorification of violence.
So that means on the left when you have imagery like with Kathy Griffin a couple of weeks ago that should be called out across the board. And to a large extent it was. But it also means that the type of rhetoric we heard from the president himself during the campaign which offering to pay people's legal bills if they punched someone in the face that needs to be called out too. I think that is a realistic goal and bar that we could all meet
collectively without getting set up for disappointment by acting like if democrats and republicans debate fiercely again on the floor of the House that that's a setback.
CILLIZZA: If we can't meet that bar we're doomed.
LEMON: Tara, I want to put this up. This is from Glenn Thrush who was the White House correspondent for the New York Times who tweeted this out today. He said, "Any debate about civility and politics begins with Trump. No one has degraded discourse more while embracing the fringe. Fact, not opinion."
Do you agree with that?
TARA PALMERI, POLITICAL ANALYST, CNN: Well, I just would like to say that there was a lot of reporting thinking that Melania coming into the White House might tone down his tweeting. And I think we can put that to rest that she's not able to keep him in check.
But you know, I think that it's great that we are talking about rhetoric and we're talking about the tone. But at the end of the day, you know, Reagan said that you can't blame society every time an individual does something wrong. This is one crazy person. This is a crazy man. Someone might say something he makes me angry.
[22:30:06] But he has a history of punching a woman, you know, punching his ex-girlfriend I believe. And we can't blame society for that. Like this is the way it has been. Maybe the political rhetoric is more divisive than ever but I wouldn't say that we should take away from the fact that this is an individual who did this.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: He has a history of punching a woman...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
PALMERI: So he has a violent past.
Well, he denied it but had a history of violence.
LEMON: I just want you to be clear about that but that is...
(CROSSTALK)
PALMERI: Yes, he has a violent past.
LEMON: ... that's an accusation that he denies.
PALMERI: That he deny. Well, he denied it but he has a history of violence and...
(CROSSTALK)
CHRIS CILLIZZA, POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE, CNN: We are talking about the shooter here.
LEMON: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: Yes. The shooter and Tara is exactly right.
LEMON: Yes, I'm glad to clarify that.
CILLIZZA: He has a past.
LEMON: Because I'm sure people at home may have been the same thing.
CILLIZZA: Yes.
LEMON: But go on. Do you -- I want to get -- but I want to get a direct response to this from Glen Thrush. Do you agree with what Glen Thrush tweeted out? Do you think he's right?
CILLIZZA: Yes. I think that Donald Trump has degraded the -- look, I mean frankly, this is going from 0.5 to 0.2. I mean, it was not as though everyone got along before Donald Trump started running for president. And not as all people has said nasty things about one another because they did.
I think has he given sort of a broader umbrella acceptance of it. I think he has. But I will say this. There are only 140 characters that come to these tweets so Glen didn't include this.
I would say this. I also think Donald Trump has radicalized both the right and the left. I do think the liberal left is more willing to believe anything that is said about Donald Trump, any story from any place. And run with it. You didn't see with Barack Obama.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I call it...
CILLIZZA: You didn't see with George W. Bush.
LEMON: Yes.
CILLIZZA: So that is different. So yes, I do think he has his willingness to not understand that a statement at the congressional baseball game which is quite good thoughtful and a tweet, they are both communications from the president.
One isn't a ten and one is a one. They both matter. But there is zero question on my mind I see every day on Twitter and people who interact with me on e-mail and various other forms. The left is ready to believe if I said I saw Donald Trump had a tail and horns people would be like I knew it.
LEMON: I knew it.
CILLIZZA: I knew it. (CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I call it -- I call it Trump derangement syndrome. Because I go in places and people say, well, is he gone yet? When is he -- I'm like he's not going anywhere.
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: Why does the Congress (Inaudible).
AMANDA CARPENTER, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: But how much is this Donald Trump or how much has the internet has actually changed the political system and Donald Trump is the Twitter candidate that conquered it. The internet has provided a centralized place where all there discussion can happen like before even the break we're talking the break we're talking about Twitter.
Before it would be very hard for me to see all the terrible things that are said about me. But now there is a place where all comes together and we all see it. Everybody has this meeting ground now that is largely social media.
Look at the fake news stories spread on Facebook, look at how it spreads on Twitter. I think that has changed our political system much more than Donald Trump has. But Donald Trump is the vehicle for it, that understands it has manipulated it and has reason...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But also -- I do -- listen, hold on, hold on, I do think -- I do think that you are right in a sense. But I also think that we need, people need to be trained in how to absorb and take in media, right. You need to be media savvy.
CILLIZZA: Absolutely.
CARPENTER: Right.
LEMON: And because people sit around and I know it's been said over and over again and they watch the same news program. They read the same blogs where everyone agrees with them. And if you are watching a network that's to the left you are going to believe that Donald Trump is going to be impeached at any moment, right.
And if you are watching it on the right you think Donald Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And the truth is somewhere in the middle.
MIKE SHIELDS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: Can I -- I'll just point out that somehow or another we are making this tone Donald Trump's fault. So once again he is responsible. Did Donald Trump cause person...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No one has said that. SHIELDS: Well, we're saying -- he set the tone. You're going Thrush's quote. That's what we're talking to.
LEMON: We're asking you if...
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: I mean, did Donald Trump cause democrats to say if republicans are going to get rid of Obamacare and he's going to kill people, literally kill people? Donald Trump didn't cause democrats to say that.
He didn't cause Kirsten Gillibrand to use the f bomb the other night. People need to be responsible for their own actions instead of us saying well, he set the tone so pretty much anything goes because that's what the president said.
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: No.
SHIELDS: That's what Glen Thrush is getting at and I think it's absurd.
CILLIZZA: Let me say this. I'm not going to spend a whole segment defending Glen who is my friend. But I will say this. To me what Glen is getting at is Donald Trump has mainstreamed some of the language in the ways in which we talk about one another.
Lying Ted, little Marco, you know, low energy Jeb and talking about everything down there is just fine.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Crooked Hillary.
CILLIZZA: That does not excuse things that democrats say or things that if I said something. If I said something that is offensive it's not that Donald Trump's fault.
[22:35:01] BRIAN FALLON, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: But Chris, I was trying to get distinction again between coarseness. There is so much in my mind that Donald Trump has added to the coarseness of the debate. But that's even my problem.
So lying Ted, crooked Hillary. he unleashed crooked Hillary again today. I can deal with that. I agree that it doesn't condone swearing. I do think democrats are now feeling compelled to match it to show that their own voters that they are willing to stand up to him and be just as tough. And that's not good either.
But what I think we should all be able to agree on is that when Donald Trump goes out and says you know what the problem in today's society is, is that we don't solve enough things in physical confrontation anymore. He said that during the primary at a rally. RYAN LIZZA, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CNN: I think you are engaging in a
little bit of both sides do it that is just out of whack with reality here. Donald Trump accused Ted Cruz's father of having something to do with the Kennedy assassination, he accused the Clintons of being murders.
As brian pointed out during the campaign, he at least implicitly condones violence at his rallies. Someone going on, a democrat going out and dropping an f bomb one time is not the same thing. And by the way, when you're President of the United States it is far more important to set a proper tone than some random...
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: But he said something...
LIZZA: So I -- what's that?
CILLIZZA: What has he said since he was president of the United States since he's sworn in along those lines that does what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the residue of that, we're seeing...
LIZZA: His Twitter account still right now has a picture of Ted Cruz's wife being -- you know unflattering picture compared to Melania Trump. I mean, he hasn't taken these things down. He hasn't retracted any of them and he hasn't apologized.
FALLON: And just last week there was a front story in the New York Times about groups on the alt-right that are militant groups they've done paramilitary costume. They're called the alt-knights and the proud boys. These are groups that have sprung up based on Donald Trump's cultivating of this sort of nationalism and condoning of violence and they are out there staging rallies where they are looking to beat up liberal demonstrators.
LIZZA: No that is not for a second to say anything that Donald Trump has said or the way that he has cause some political rhetoric has anything to do with what happened yesterday.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: Right. But you could see as we are watching this now believes we are blaming Donald Trump for alt-right groups blaming Donald Trump for...
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: But we keep saying like he's not.
SHIELDS: I think there are democrats saying that if we get rid of Obamacare people will die. Republicans and Donald Trump are trying to kill you. You can understand what that rhetoric can get so heated in opposition of the president that some crazy people can take that that to a really bad place.
CILLIZZA: What part though?
SHIELDS: So we shouldn't just lay of it but that's not...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Quickly, I got to get to the break. Last word.
CILLIZZA: Tara I thought made a really great point, though. And I just kept coming back with this. We all can get heated in a setting like this. You can get heated in a bar talking to someone about politics. We all do this because we live this politics.
But none of us think you know what I should do next? I should go with a rifle and wait and shoot these people. That's the thing.
PALMERI: Right.
CILLIZZA: Like yes, they are in the same general vicinity this rhetoric just ramping up but none of us are going to do that thing.
LEMON: If the congressmen who weren't involved in the shooting yesterday did not think it was important to talk about this and it didn't contribute in some way to this person's violence then they would not have said it. And so...
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: I mean, it's a great thing to talk about.
LEMON: Yes.
CARPENTER: Like this is something that we should be talking about.
LEMON: Absolutely.
CARPENTER: But I don't think it's the reason that he got a gun and drove from Illinois.
LEMON: And the whole reason that I raise the point here and we are having this conversation is because of what those men have said on the air on every network that they appeared on and we all need to watch to.
CARPENTER: Which is the right tone.
LEMON: And that's why I raised the question. When we come right back, everyone, stick around, we're going to talk more about Russia, the Russia investigation and how the president and his son-in-law are involved.
Two experts who have been a part of major Washington investigations are going to join me next. Plus, the jury in the Bill Cosby trial deadlocked. Why they can't reach a verdict? We got another hour coming and we're going to bring you the latest on his case. [22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The Washington Post is now reporting that in addition to President Trump being investigated by special counsel, the special counsel. His son-in-law and senior adviser to Jared Kushner's business dealings are under investigation as well. When asked for a response President Trump was uncharacteristically silent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, do you believe that you are under investigation now? Mr. President, do you now believe -- do you want to respond on camera to the Washington Post report?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So I'm back now with my panel. We're also joined now by Robert Ray, the former Whitewater independent counsel and special prosecutor, and CNN legal analyst Michael Zeldin, Robert Mueller's former special assistant to the Justice Department.
I want to talk to you gentlemen first and then we'll bring the panel back in. So Michael, welcome. The Washington Post reports that Robert Mueller is now investigated -- investigating Jared Kushner's finances and business dealings as part of the Russia investigation. What do you make of it?
MICHAEL ZELDIN, LEGAL ANALYST, CNN: Well, I guess the question is whether or not there is a belief that any of the Kushner meetings, the alleged meetings with that bank or Russian officials was as a result of his need for financing for any of his buildings.
There have been stories in the paper about 666 5th Avenue being in financial difficulty and whether or not there is money that's needed for that. And so I think it's logical from follow the money standpoint that you would look at all these things to see whether they reach into Russia and that might provide a motive for the allegations with respect to collusion or some other interference allegation.
LEMON: I wonder if this is a sign, Robert, about the vulnerability of the people around the president. Because as the Russia investigation expands we've learned that Vice President Pence now hired an outside counsel to represent him in this Russia probe. I mean, that's pretty significant. And given your experience with Whitewater how do you -- do you think people in the Trump administration are vulnerable, the people who are around the president?
ROBERT RAY, FORMER WHITEWATER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL & SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Well, the famous story was involving Betty Currie, President Clinton's secretary who I think famously quipped every time I talk to somebody in the White House what ends up happening is they get a subpoena and they end up having to hire a lawyer and incur legal bills and legal expenses.
[22:44:56] So, look, you know, when there is an investigation and particularly a special counsel or independent counsel investigation it has consequence to the people that are around the president.
But I will say also just because there are leaks into the media that the FBI is investigating something, you know, you have to be careful about trying to make too much of that. The FBI is investigating because that's what they do if they interview somebody everybody, you know, gets al up in arms about the FBI is investigating in and of itself that doesn't necessarily mean very much.
LEMON: I think, and considering the conversation that we have been having over -- that we have in this broadcast at least earlier -- investigating means just that investigating. It does not imply guilt. It's just that there is an investigation on the way.
RAY: You're a long away -- right. You're a long away from deciding by a prosecutor after interviews and after some full some discussion about whether or not any crimes have been committed and even then whether or not it is appropriate to bring charges.
So, you know, everybody just needs to kind of calm down and stand down for just a moment and at least allow the investigation some time to begin before anybody should expect results from that investigation.
LEMON: And even with, just like with any other thing especially when you are talking about the criminal justice system there is a presumption of innocence first. Is that correct even so with this?
RAY: Of course.
LEMON: Yes.
RAY: And that's -- look, it's an important thing to remember. The president and the president's people are just as much entitled as they are held to be accountable under the law and that no person in the United States including the president is above the law.
Obviously, all of the same constitutional protections apply. One is presumed to be innocent and you shouldn't necessarily assume which is why ordinarily most of the stuff it remains secret and it's behind the cloak even of grand jury proceedings.
The whole purpose of which is to not unfairly impugn anybody's integrity or imply that they have committed a crime until such time as a prosecutor actually stands behind a charge and brings a formal proceeding. There is no reason to think at this point that that's going to happen. That's why you have an investigation...
LEMON: Exactly.
RAY: ... to decide one way or another whether or not you should be bringing charges.
LEMON: Yes. And panel I want to bring you back because it's Ryan Lizza and I was talking about as you mentioned earlier. I talked about it, as well. People think automatically there is an investigation...
CILIZZA: Yes. LEMON: ... therefore, the president or Jared Kushner must be guilty. When are they going away? And that's not necessarily the case.
CILIZZA: No. I mean, I always harken back and I remember people liberals were angry at President Obama when he didn't close Guantanamo Bay the day that he became president. So things don't -- that's not how this all works.
I think the broad take away here, don, is that this investigation is broadening, right. It was Russia which is not a small thing but it was Russia's involvement in the election and now according to the Washington Post we are talking about obstruction of justice.
The obstruction of justice the investigation into obstruction of justice, not obstruction of justice as it relates to the president and now financial dealings as it relates to Jared Kushner.
It is widening rather than narrowing. But to my mother's disappointment I'm not a lawyer so I can't tell you what that means. I can tell you politically speaking, you know, the broader it gets the more this is why people don't like politicians don't like special counsels.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But politically I can tell you....
CILLIZZA: It's not good.
LEMON: Every time there is a special counsel in an investigation like this it may start off investigating something and then ends up being something else. It may start as collusion and comes down to obstruction of justice even without people realizing that they obstruct -- obstructed justice.
LIZZA: Look what happened to Trump in the last few weeks. He went from being told by James Comey, the FBI director, you are not a subject personally of this investigation to Trump taking a series of actions that has now made him a subject of the investigation because of firing Comey and having him allegedly trying to shut down the Flynn investigation. So these things can spin out of control very, very quickly.
LEMON: Michael, I want to talk with you because the president has been, he ignored reporter's questions about it but he has been tweeting up a storm and he said, "They made up phony collusion -- phony collusion with the Russian story and found zero proof. So now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice. You are witnessing the single greatest witch-hunt in the American political history led by some very bad and conflicted people."
Do you think that he really gets the severity of this of how serious this situation is?
ZELDIN: Apparently not because if he got the severity of the counter intelligence investigation in the first instance he would not have intervened in it to create the secondary obstruction of justice investigation.
There was no need at the outset of this there for this to have an obstruction of justice component to it. He created that by his insistence on people doing things that he wanted done which weren't normal to the course of an investigation, which is reveals someone's innocence at an early stage in investigations.
[22:50:04] So if there is a witch-hunt as it relates to him and the obstruction, it's a self-imposed, self-inflicted wound.
LEMON: Yes. Republican members of Congress today, though, even saying on CNN's air, and while answering questions and on other networks that it's not a witch-hunt.
SHIELDS: Well, (Inaudible) who's actually worked for Robert Mueller here because maybe you can help me understand this. Robert Mueller had this great reputation, everyone said he's a straight up guy. We now found out of course he was interviewing with the FBI director.
But we've now had two leaks that have come out from his investigation. That's how we know about this obstruction of justice thing. And now with the Jared Kushner thing, which I don't even think is news...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Wait, I'll let you answer. How is it that he was interviewed by the FBI director? Why is that -- make him a stand-up guy?
SHIELDS: I'm saying that there are credibility issues now going on with Robert Mueller.
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: So why Trump interview him?
SHIELDS: There's some credibility issues going out with Robert Mueller specifically when it comes to talking about leaks from his own investigation. The only reason we know that anything is going on with Jared Kushner is there's been some kind of...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Wait, wait, wait, why would the president be interviewing him as FBI director if he was not credible?
SHIELDS: Well, he didn't get the job as FBI director now he's investigating the president of the United States. I think it's something helpful to...
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: But we talk about one credibility thing that I just think is the weirdest thing...
LEMON: But hold on. Hold on. In fairness, you want to ask -- did you want to ask a question... (CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: Yes. I mean, is it normal for Robert Mueller to have investigations where early on there's already two leaks driving news stories about things that are pertinent to the...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Is that better for Robert or Michael -- let's let Robert -- Robert, can you weigh in on that?
RAY: Well, of course, I can weigh in. I think anybody who's spent any time around a criminal investigation at the federal law enforcement level knows that the FBI does in fact leak. That's not a news flash.
Look, I agree with the point that that's troubling. It should not be coming out of Bob Mueller's office. But unfortunately, with regard to a high-profile investigation, and I have been part of one, there are very few people that you can trust.
And with regard to matters that you need to ensure do not go into the public domain, you tell very few people.
I mean, I can recall with regard to the matters involving whether or not -- the decision whether or not to charge the president of the United States once he left office, Bill Clinton, that with regard to the resolution of that matter, I told basically three people -- my deputy, my chief of investigations, and I think a third person, and that's all I told.
That obviously hamstrings your ability to discuss matters within your own office. But you know that if you do, it will end up in the newspapers. So it's very difficult.
LEMON: Michael? Go ahead.
ZELDIN: With respect to this discussion, in a courtroom, there's an objection which says objection, that assumes a fact not in evidence.
LEMON: Right. How do we know that it's an FBI or it may be someone who has been on the classified...
(CROSSTALK)
ZELDIN: You have no way of knowing. Suppose Robert Mueller calls the CIA director, and he says, I would like to interview you. And one thing to make sure we are aware of, these are interviews, these are not grand jury appearances. So this is early in the preliminary where he's getting statements.
So he calls the CIA director's office and said I'd like to -- I'd like to interview you. That goes to his administrative assistant, it goes to his chief of staff, and he says, and bring documents. And then they go to the staff to get the documents together.
So to pre-suppose that leak came from the FBI or Mueller's side of that conversation is assuming a fact not in evidence. We have no way of knowing where that information derived from.
(CROSSTALK)
LIZZA: Well, if you read the stories of the last two days carefully, especially the one yesterday, it actually makes it, reading between the lines, it's fairly clear it did not come from the FBI. It's coming from witnesses who are being approached by investigators, and they're free to tell anyone they want. We have to distinguish here, you're talking about leaks if leaks are all illegal.
CARPENTER: They're not, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yes, go ahead.
LIZZA: That's the currency of Washington. But I mean, it's another way of describing information that is in the public's interest and right to know. I agree with you sometimes classified -- if someone leaks classified information, there's a law that's broken. But just leaking information, giving information to a reporter to inform the public, there's nothing wrong with that.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Brian Fallon. Go ahead.
FALLON: I agree with both of these gentlemen, what you just said. And so you have to ask the question, why is there such haste to assign these leaks to the FBI. Well, I think it is the White House's strategy to try to discredit Bob Mueller to potentially build a case for firing him. So now it's leaks.
Previously, Kellyanne Conway tweeting out political donations that lawyers that have been brought in by Mueller to help conduct this investigation have made years ago. I think they're trying to build a case.
So it was extremely important today to get these congressional republicans on record saying that they don't agree with this White House's attempt to discredit Bob Mueller, because if he does proceed with trying to fire him, we're going to need those congressional republicans to stand up and say, hey, maybe we need to think about resurrecting...
(CROSSTALK)
[22:55:05] SHILEDS: And that's not the case to fire him. This is -- the point of this entire thing is that this is about politics. This investigation is about politics. The democrats using it, it's about politics.
LEMON: Yes.
SHIELDS: And time they get leaks about politics, and in the end, even an investigation of the president when it goes to Congress, is about politics.
(CROSSTALK)
CILLIZZA: But just one quick question. Just a point of clarification that I want to know. The decision to appoint Bob Mueller was made by the deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, right? So why is it -- I'm not trying to be polly-anish the second time polly-anish as I've imagined. How are the politics in that because Rosenstein is a Trump administration nominee, right. He's just been confirmed.
LEMON: I have 30 seconds. Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: Listen, go read Alan Dershowitz's column on the Hill about what is obstruction of justice. The President of the United States has the power to pardon people, cannot when he's constitutionally executing his duties even commit obstruction of justice. So this is about politics. That's my point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARPENTER: But he can't pardon himself.
ZELDIN: No, so this is about...
LEMON: Quickly. That's the last word, quickly.
ZELDIN: This is about the due administration of justice. This is not -- you might want it to be about politics, but it's a criminal justice investigation, pure and simple. And when you label things leaks, that aren't leaks, and when you try to insinuate bad motive to people who are investigating it, then you make something into a political investigation that doesn't have to be.
LEMON: And I would like to tell the panel and the viewers, if you want to know about why it's about leaks, and other things, just go online and Google the talking points, the RNC talking points on the Washington Post story. It's online, it talks about leaks, how it's political and on and on and on.
And basically what we've been hearing from a lot of folks. So I'm glad to have you here and Robert as well to discuss this. We appreciate it. We'll be right back.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
