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Don Lemon Tonight
FBI Raids Trump Lawyer Michael Cohen's Office, Hotel Room and Reportedly His Home, Seizes Stormy Daniels' Documents Including Bank Records; How Much Legal Hot Water Is Cohen In?; Mark Zuckerberg To Testify In Front Of Congress; Apple Co-Founder Leaves Facebook. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired April 09, 2018 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. It is 11:00 p.m. here on the East Coast, live with breaking news tonight.
A furious President Trump blasting the FBI raid today on his personal attorney, Michael Cohen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just heard that they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys. Good man. And it's a disgraceful situation. It's a total witch hunt. I had been saying it for a long time. I've wanted to keep it down. We've given -- I believe over a million pages worth of documents to the Special Counsel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, the President is absolutely wrong. Nobody broke into Michael Cohen's office and nobody, not even the President is above the law. A dozen FBI agents, armed with search warrants legally seized documents from Cohen's office, his hotel room and reportedly his home. A source telling CNN those documents are related to Stormy Daniels. Another source telling CNN the search warrant was very broad and included bank records for President Trump, to use this as an attack on him and the country. Sources also telling CNN Tonight, that Cohen, the Cohen raids sent the President over the edge, because his attorney is like a surrogate family member.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's a disgrace. It's frankly a real disgrace. It's a -- an attack on our country in a true sense. It's an attack on what we all stand for. So when I saw this and when I heard it, I heard it like you did. I said that is really now in a whole new level of unfairness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So let's talk about this. I want to bring in now CNN Presidential Historian, Douglas Brinkley, CNN Contributor, Michael D'Antonio, the author of "The Truth About Trump," also CNN Contributor, Frank Bruni, of "The New York Times."
Good evening everyone. Thank you for joining us. It is good to have all of you here onset here in New York.
So, Frank, federal agents raided the office of President Trump's personal attorney today. They didn't break in as he said after getting a referral from Special Counsel Mueller. This is a massive development.
FRANK BRUNI, OP-ED COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Yes.
LEMON: What do you think?
BRUNI: Well, I mean, I go to what we heard the president said just then. I mean he said an attack on our country. I mean, you could not be describing it in a more dramatic or belligerent terms. He said a whole new level of unfairness. It makes me wonder if it puts him in a whole new league of paranoia.
You know, we have talked before on this show and we've all been talking for weeks, even months about would there comes a moment, when the President would move to get rid of Mueller. I think we're closer to that moment tonight than we've ever been and I really feel like we're all going to wake up tomorrow, we are going to look at his tweeter feed and we are going to see some stuff there, perhaps that is going to make this even more intense. And I think we are entering a new chapter here and it's a really scary one.
LEMON: A constitutional crisis possibly. I mean, do you think that he is going to get rid of Mueller? Do you guys agree with that?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, you know, this idea that this was a break in. It's like Watergate in reverse, right. Like the Daniel Ellsberg break in, the burglary break in. This is about a very serious issue of Donald Trump, obfuscating and basically covering up election laws, not you know, being open on the Stormy Daniels situation.
So, I think we're going to find Trump, the more angry he gets, Don, the more like a volcano you feel him getting, the more I think he is going to look to fire people. So, I think Mueller is possibly on the chopping block. Jeff Sessions and others.
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Think about this. When have we ever heard a President be this emotional, this many mornings and evenings for such an extended period of time. We never knew what the President felt about something unless it was really a major development and here he is talking about this as if the United States has been attacked.
Well, what happens when the United States is attacked? I think the last time a President declared that we went to war and Afghanistan and Iraq. Are we going to start shooting now over Michael Cohen? And this is really kind of nuts. And yet the American people, as Frank said, are going to wake up tomorrow morning and try and determine where the Republic stands. Are we in a constitutional crisis? What's the next thing that this person is going to do to us? Because I think, he is making us all a little jittery.
LEMON: Here's more of the President. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They are not looking at the Hillary Clinton, horrible things that she did and all of the crimes that were committed. They're not look at all of the things that happened that everybody is very angry about, I can tell you from the Republican side and I think even the independent side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He lashed out at everyone today including Hillary Clinton, his formal rival. By the way, Hillary Clinton is not President of the United States.
D'ANTONIO: James Comey.
LEMON: He attacked the FBI, Rod Rosenstein, the Attorney General. He was pointing the finger at everyone but himself.
BRUNI: He is going to be muttering about Hillary Clinton on his death bed. He really is. He just can't let that go and probably Comey too, but, you know, he's -- I think what you see here is him feeling very cornered.
[23:05:04] And this is part of a sequence. So a couple weeks ago, Mueller issued subpoenas for records from the Trump organization. And it was the investigation going into places that it maybe wasn't going to go into, hadn't been into before. What he -- the Cohen thing which is actually under Mueller's direction, there's a chain of things that happened there, and the warrants were seek and sovereign and executed by someone who Trump appointed.
But again, it's another corner of Trump's life being investigated that he didn't expect to happen. So, I think he feels like this is going so much farther than he ever thought it would. Like, he is about to be subject to a level of exposure and scrutiny. This is the guy, remember, who wouldn't release his tax returns and now you have records from his attorney and good friend's office in the hands of prosecutors that has got to freak him out.
LEMON: Well, sources telling CNN that some of the documents seized included information related to the Stormy Daniels case, also seized communications between Cohen, as you said and his clients. So, shed some light, if you will, on Trump's business practices. What have you uncovered?
D'ANTONIO: Well, he is always gone right up to the edge and risked teetering over it. And I think Michael Cohen, has been -- he identifies himself as his fixer. Now, I don't have a fixer. I don't know if any of you have a fixer. But if you're a person who needs a fixer, you're breaking a lot of things. And so, where are the records of what's been broken, of what violations have taken place? They must be in the fixer's office. And this I think is terrifying to the President.
LEMON: You don't have an Olivia Pope?
BRINKLEY: No Olivia Pope for me. I have no fixer, but imagine the paranoia going on Donald Trump. He is already prone for conspiracy theories. He believes in the deep state out to get him. James Comey is coming out with a memoir next week. Now all of his personal record and possible financial dealings over the last decade or more now are in the hands of what he construes as the enemy.
This is a melting point going on here tonight. And there will be as Frank said, something's going to go down the next few days. He just can't sit back, because it's his one chance to turn the base with him and try to say this is a partisan attack by the Clintonistas.
LEMON: I want everyone to listen to this. This is -- specifically to you Frank, this is what the President said about Mueller. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Why don't I just fire Mueller? Well, I think it's a disgrace what's going on. We'll see what happens. But I think it's really a sad situation when you look at what happened. And many people have said, you should fire him. Again, they found nothing. And in finding nothing, that is a big statement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So again, we don't know what they found, right, because the investigation isn't over yet. But this is the reason that you said that you believe that he is going to fire Mueller?
BRUNI: No, no, I didn't say I believe he is going to fire him. I think we're closer to that possibility.
LEMON: Closer to that possibility.
BRUNI: I mean, he is just telegraphed it there and by the way. I love that the used one of his favorite locution, many people have asked me. Many people had said, that basically means one person, or in my own head, I heard this voice and now I am going to shove it to many people.
LEMON: There are three people who have, you know, pleaded guilty, right? He's found something, correct? To say that they found nothing.
D'ANTONIO: 13 Russians indicted, I mean, the charge this is a big set of problems for the President.
LEMON: The next question out of that is, I would have asked and I think they did, but, you know, I think they got cut off by the President's handlers, are you going to fire Mueller. I don't think that he ever answered that question. If are you going to fire Mueller. BRINKLEY: It was an odd moment, because he is sitting there. We're
supposed to be talking about Syria surrounded by the generals. How humiliating to be there just in that moment and then for him to be basically throwing Jeff Sessions under the bus again, it's not just a war on the FBI, but the Justice Department.
BRUNI: He said no.
D'ANTONIO: He said Jeff Sessions again.
LEMON: He said Jeff Sessions should -- he said he should never have recused himself, right? So, do you think Jeff Sessions is --
BRINKLEY: Sessions can -- he can't get rid of him. I mean, if Sessions quits, he would have been bullied by Donald Trump into quitting. And I don't -- if Trump fires him, it's going to create a firestorm on Capitol Hill, so I think he is kind of in a weird spot, Jeff Sessions.
So he may be the last man left standing. He might survive this, but I think if Trump goes after Mueller, he'll go after Sessions too. I don't think, he'll try to do a clean sweep of the table.
BRUNI: Trump can't directly fire Mueller. He has to, I mean, so he has to kind of sweep out some people above him to set this all in motion. We'll know that is what's happening, that Trump is doing it, but he has to do it in a sequence.
LEMON: All right, I want to see -- do we have the President Obama sound bite, where he talk about President Obama, let me know when you get that, because he is, you know as I said, he's talking about every single person except for himself. Even -- and I want to put this out there. Look, this is from Michael Cohen, this is back in 2015. Michael Cohen tweeted saying Hillary Clinton, when you go to prison for defrauding America and perjury, your room and board will be free.
D'ANTONIO: Wow.
LEMON: What do you think of that?
D'ANTONIO: Well, I think many people around the United States, to quote the President, are wondering who's going to be in the orange jumpsuit first.
[23:10:05] And could it be Michael Cohen? Could it be some of these others who are pleading guilty? It is really a terrible crisis for the country and yet people are talking about this. The President is talking about it as if it's personal and it's all about him.
LEMON: This is what -- we don't have a sound bite. They said, they found no collusion whatsoever with Russia. You have it. OK, let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They found no collusion whatsoever with Russia. The reason they found it is there was no collusion at all. No collusion. This is the most biased group of people, these people have the biggest conflicts of interest I've ever seen. Democrats, all, just about all, the Democrats are and a couple of Republicans that worked for President Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What is he talking about? Is he talking about the House Intelligence thing that was shut down, because -- Robert Mueller's investigation is not over. And then Obama.
BRUNI: There's such a sequence of lies and misrepresentations. And first of all, they found nothing yet, because they have not reached a conclusion or told us everything they've done. And when he says and his supporters say there's not been a hint of evidence of any collusion, what about the Trump tower meeting, that his son took place in and they all met on the plane crafting a statement about, so there's that. But this thing he keeps on saying about the most biased people, the most conflicts of interest, he keeps putting out this utterly false narrative that the investigation into him that the FBI is just larded with Democrats who are out to get him and it's absolutely not true.
LEMON: Republicans, a lot of them. Robert Mueller. By the way Republican.
BRINKLEY: James Comey.
LEMON: Thank you Frank, thank you Michael, thank you Douglas, I appreciate it. When we come back, President Trump calling an FBI raid on his attorney a witch hunt, but just how much legal hot water is Michael Cohen in and what will or can the President do about it?
[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Sources tell CNN President Trump is furious about the FBI raid on his attorney and they say no one wants him to do anything when he is this angry. But, what will all this mean for the investigation? I want to bring in now CNN Legal Analyst, Page Pate and Areva Martin, also Areva is the -- the author of the bestseller "Making It Rain." Defense Attorney, Joe Tacopina, is here as well.
Good evening. Thank you all for joining us.
Joe, a source tells CNN that the raid on President Trump's attorney, Michael Cohen was, quote, mostly related to Stormy Daniels and that the warrant also mentioned election lost, it covers Stormy Daniels scandals took so much heat for so long and now here we are. Right?
JOE TACOPINA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I mean, Don, I really called this a month ago, because when Michael Cohen went out there and pronounced that he paid the $130,000 to Stormy Daniels and Trump knew nothing about it, then of course his client confirmed that last week, in Air Force One, it sealed the deal. This day was coming. Because what they just both admitted, that this was a fraud. That the agreement -- forget the agreement. That is null and void. That is fraud, because you cannot bind a client as a lawyer when the client doesn't know you're binding him. You can't pay money on that client's behalf without the client knowing it.
That is from the validity of the agreement stand point. But now what you do is you now thread into campaign finance laws and that -- that territory, because this could be looked at as in kind contribution at the time of the election. This is a real problem and they've both, and I'm telling you, the reason we're here I strongly believe is because of the words of both Michael Cohen and Donald Trump.
LEMON: Wow, Page Pate, it's also being reported that Cohen is under investigation for possible bank fraud, wire fraud, and campaign finance violations. What does that tell you about this investigation?
TACOPINA: All could be relating to the same transaction.
LEMON: Page?
PAGE PATE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Don, I think this goes way beyond Stormy Daniels, I mean we can speculate this to why he would be considered for a bank fraud charge. I guess it's possible that the source of the funds he said he got this off of his, you know, his second mortgage or home equity line. What did he tell the lender that he was using this money for? Certainly not to pay off a porn star.
So maybe there was fault statement in connection with those bank applications. Perhaps there are campaign finance violations. But I can't believe that we would see a search warrant, multiple search warrants being executed on a lawyer's office and hotel room based upon a possible campaign finance violation. I mean, these are extraordinarily rare.
You have to go through so many obstacles to get a search warrant like this before you execute it that I've got to believe it's something more than Stormy Daniels and something more than maybe an in-kind contribution.
LEMON: Areva, what do you think?
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, we've been listening, I've been listening to the reporting all day Don, and the reporting is that there is likely a lot more than just the transaction involving Stormy Daniels. That the Special Counsel's Office and perhaps the FBI have been watching this and watching Michael Cohen and this is not something that just happened overnight. This is the result of perhaps weeks and weeks of investigation involving him and just as page said, to get a magistrate to sign off on these search warrants.
One commentator today said, this is a subpoena on steroids. And you know, just to give your audience in some sense of how difficult this is, the attorney/client privilege is what's at stake here. So when the FBI goes in and gets all this information, the bank records, these documents from Michael Cohen's office, they have to be concerned about them. There are actually two teams that are going to be involve in looking at this material to make sure that any information that is given over to these investigators doesn't violate that attorney/client privilege.
So, and I want to note that Paul Manafort is the only other person where we've seen search warrants, you know, knocks on the doors from the FBI. You know, documents seized from the private residence of someone that is the subject of the investigation. And 96 days after that search warrant, indictments filed against Paul Manafort. So this doesn't look good for Michael Cohen.
LEMON: page, what do you want to say?
TACOPINA: Don, understand this. The way this has to go, this has nothing to do with Bob Mueller. I've seen statements where the White House and Trump are attacking Mueller. Mueller at this point, has to consult with the Deputy Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, who works for Trump by the way. And once there's something that could be outside of his jurisdiction which this would be, if its Bob directly related to Russia, he has to consult with the Deputy Attorney General.
[23:20:00] The Deputy Attorney General, then decides, do I send this to the Manhattan U.S. Attorney General Office, another Counsel or keep it within the Special Counsel, Bob Mueller. Here he sent it outside, but then what has to happen is they have to go to a special unit in the Justice Department, because a lawyer's involved and you have confidential documents. You have attorney/client documents and communications.
So a team that gets appointed and a special unit in the Justice Department has to approve this warrant. This went so high up and has nothing to do with Bob Mueller or Democrats or whatever else you want. This is the Justice Department, how it works every single day of the week.
LEMON: OK.
TACOPINA: But for some reason the President cannot cope with that. And I heard him refer to this is a break-in today, a break-in, like a burglary or something like that. This is the Justice Department. And what chills me as a lawyer, forget about being a defense lawyer or former prosecutor as I am -- is that our President, is attacking the foundation of our justice system in this country by calling into question the FBI, the Justice Department, his own Attorney General. Every judge who ever rules against him. It's just unhealthy for the sort of the health of this justice system.
LEMON: Every time something doesn't go his way or he feels that someone is somehow wronged him, he attacks them. And even if it's people he appointed. Page, Stormy Daniels attorney Michael Avenatti, spoke to Anderson Cooper, just a short time ago about Cohen's situation. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL AVENATTI, STORMY DANIEL'S ATTORNEY: This is a very, very serious matter needless to say and as I predicted last week, it appears that the noose is tightening around Michael Cohen. I think the President has considerable reason to be concerned. A lot of faith and confidence has been put in Michael Cohen. I think the expectation was that he was going to be the fall guy, but make no mistake about it. There's going to be a lot of sleepless nights at the White House from here on out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Is Cohen in a lot of trouble, Page?
PATE: I think Cohen has to be in a lot of trouble. You don't execute a search warrant like this, multiple search warrants like this without a solid foundation. What I would love to see is the affidavit supporting the search warrants, the statement made by the agents to establish enough probable cause to get a Judge to sign off on this warrant. It's not a witch hunt. It's not a fishing expedition. They have identified a probable cause.
LEMON: Page, let me play you what the President said about that and then 2I'll let you finish what you are saying. Let's play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The Attorney General made a terrible mistake when he did this and when he recused himself or he should have certainly let us know if he was going to recuse himself. And we would have used a -- put a different Attorney General in. So he made what I consider to be a very terrible mistake for the country. But you'll figure that out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But again, that has nothing to do with Cohen, what he was referring to, but anyway, go on, Page.
PATE: Well, one thing that was important about that clip, you heard he said the President Trump said that Sessions made a mistake and then he referred back to not recusing himself. I think in this situation, given the fact that main justice probably knew about these search warrants before they were executed that Sessions had an opportunity to step in and stop this. Just like the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and no one did.
So what does that tell you that is in this affidavit? What evidence is it that they have pinpointed that Michael Cohen has access to that will prove evidence of some crime? I cannot wait to see what's in that affidavit, because I think it's going to shock us all.
LEMON: Oh.
MARTIN: Don, I want to say, too, you know, Michael Cohen made this bed that he is now being forced to lie in. All the hubris around being the fixer and you know, talking about his, you know, the job that he did for Donald Trump that went far beyond that a lawyer does for a client and that is going to come back, I think, and cause serious harm for him. Because any of those documents or any of those records that were seized today, those documents that don't relate to him performing services as an attorney for Donald Trump and we know that he often served as his business adviser. He's political adviser.
He wasn't always acting as Donald Trump's attorney. And there won't be any confidentiality, there won't be attorney/client with respect to any of those documents. So, I think Michael Cohen and Donald Trump, I can't emphasize enough how much they have made their own beds in this situation and been their worst enemies in terms of the rhetoric that they've spewed throughout this entire case with Stormy Daniels.
LEMON: Joe, I want you to hold that thought. Because, Page said --
TACOPINA: Yes.
LEMON: -- that he can't wait to see what's in that affidavit. My question to you is, are we ever going to get to see it? I want you to answer it, though, on the other side of the break. We'll be right back.
[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Page Pate, Areva Martin and Joe Tacopina, are back with me. So, are we going to see the affidavit, Joe Tacopina?
TACOPINA: Well, the only way we're going -- the only way we are going to see the affidavit is if unfortunately for Michael Cohen is if he gets charged with something and there is what they call discovery or if another individual gets charged based on the fruits, so to speak, the evidence covered in the search warrant today.
I mean, someone has to get charged, most likely someone would have to get charged for these documents to ever see the light of day, because they are sealed, they are not public records at this point. If someone charge, because of the warrant and the affirmation inside the warrant, whatever the agent has sworn out to, then become subject to challenge. So that is one we'll get to see it.
LEMON: OK. So if Stormy Daniels attorney says that he will release a composite sketch of a man who allegedly threatened the adult film actress back in 2011, here's what he told CNN earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AVENATTI: We're going to be releasing that tomorrow along with a significant reward asking that the public come forward. We are very close to identifying this individual. There is significant evidence that this actually happened. We're going to release that in the coming weeks and I'm also confident that when we release this sketch tomorrow and when we offer this sizable reward, someone is going to come forward and is going to tighten the noose, if you will, on this issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, so Areva, I want to ask you what you make of that move from Stormy Daniels attorney. But just a -- he was on Anderson later on this evening and he said they weren't expecting this whole Michael Cohen thing to come about. So, that it may be in the next 48 hours instead of tomorrow that they're going to release it. What do you think of this move?
MARTIN: Yet Don, you know, earlier today when I was going to come home. We are going to be talking about, you know, Avenatti's attempt to depose in his motion to the federal court asking again for an opportunity to depose Trump and Michael Cohen. And then we got news of, you know, the search warrant and it just took the news in a different direction.
This individual that Stormy Daniels said threatened her, we have no reason to believe that she's not credible with respect to the threat. We don't have any evidence to date, though, to suggest that this person was in any way affiliated with Michael Cohen or Donald Trump.
We know Michael Cohen has denied being involved in any way in terms of threatening Stormy Daniels or her daughter that was in the car at the time that it allegedly happened.
So it's going to be interesting to see if someone does identify this individual and if they can connect the dots between this individual and anyone in the Trump team, Donald Trump himself or Michael Cohen or any other lawyer or agent of the lawyers. That's going to be something we'll have to see.
Right now no evidence to suggest there's any connection, but I'm glad they are releasing it because if this person did threaten Stormy Daniels and her daughter, of course this person should be brought to justice.
LEMON: OK. So this is Josh Campbell. Josh Campbell was a former special supervisor agent for the FBI. He's now a contributor here on CNN. This is one of his tweets. He said, this tonight from a former FBI colleague. I've been an FBI special agent for 20 years and have only seen a handful of searches executed on attorneys. All of those attorneys went to prison. What do you think of that, Page?
PATE: Don, that's consistent with my experience. I've been involved with two where I represented lawyers and yes, in both of those cases, the lawyers were prosecuted. Again, we've been talking about it all night. It's been reported all day. This is truly an extraordinary situation.
To get a search warrant executed on a lawyer's office, not to mention the president's personal lawyer, but any lawyer representing Joe Blow, you have to jump through so many different hoops to get that. There must be specific credible evidence. Number one, a crime has been committed. And number two, you're going to find evidence of that crime at the attorney's office.
So again, I am hopeful that at some point, whether it's as a result of criminal charges or simply after the investigation is concluded, the affidavit will be unsealed and the American people will know what types of allegations and evidence they actually have relating to this situation because it must be significant.
LEMON: Yes. So, listen, this is the Michael Cohen part of the investigation which is the southern district of New York. On the Russia investigation, the president really had a hard time rebuilding his legal team since his former attorney, John Dowd, resigned. That was back in March.
And then just after that was announced, Joe diGenova was coming on board. Conflicts kept him from joining. Do you think the news of a raid on Michael Cohen -- do you think is going to make it harder, Joe, for him to rebuild his team?
TACOPINA: No. I mean, look, again, Page said it right. I said it before. It's extraordinary circumstances when a lawyer's office is raided. There has to be something in there that's real. Not just speculation. I think lawyers understand, real lawyers understand where there's the line and how not to cross it.
LEMON: Talking about that, what do you mean?
TACOPINA: Well, because there are certain things you do when representing a client and you have to act within the boundaries obviously of the law, but also within the boundaries of the canons of ethics. And you have to understand, you have to know the canons of ethics and know the law to effectively represent someone.
So you can't go out there publicly and say, I did something that's a violation of the canons of ethics, like, say, I bound my client to a settlement agreement, I paid the money myself, and I never let him know about it.
I mean, he actually said that publicly which any lawyer understands is a violation of the canons of ethics and possibly even a crime because you have bank fraud allegations involved here. I don't think it's going to scare a real lawyer away.
I mean, real lawyers who understand what their roles and responsibilities are, where the line is, how to fight vigorously, how to fight strongly for a client as I do, we all do every single day, but you also know you do it within the boundaries of the canons of ethics.
LEMON: Well --
MARTIN: Don, I disagree with Joe.
LEMON: Go ahead, Areva.
MARTIN: We've been hearing reports for the last couple of months about all the Washington lawyers. The big New York lawyers are staying away from Donald Trump.
TACOPINA: No, no, Areva.
MARTIN: He has tried to hire multiple lawyers.
TACOPINA: You're right, but the question is about, the question is about the Michael Cohen raid going to scare lawyers away. That's a different question. I don't think --
MARTIN: Let me finish. Joe, you said what you said, and I'm disagreeing with you. I think it's going --
TACOPINA: Yes, but I'm correcting you.
MARTIN: You can't correct me. You can't correct me. I disagree with you.
LEMON: All right. Mommy and daddy are fighting. It's uncomfortable. Go on.
MARTIN: I disagree with you that I think it's going to make it very difficult for Trump to hire a lawyer and definitely a high-caliber lawyer. And we've seen it's been very difficult for him to do so for multiple reasons, not just what happened today with respect to Michael Cohen, but Donald Trump as a client. He's a very difficult client. He doesn't follow the instructions of his lawyers.
[23:35:00] He talks when he shouldn't be talking. He tweets when he shouldn't be tweeting. And he's the worst client to have for any lawyer whether you're a quote, unquote real lawyer or not. So I think this does make it --
TACOPINA: I agree.
MARTIN: -- just all the more difficult for him to hire the kind of high-caliber lawyer that you will need to handle the kind of legal trouble that he finds himself in.
LEMON: Finally some agreement, Page. So, listen, Michael Cohen is one of the president's closest confidant. He is not just his attorney, but is also a friend and confidant. Now he is tied up in this investigation himself.
What does that mean that Trump and Cohen, does it mean that they can't discuss matters related to Stormy Daniels without it being potentially an obstruction of justice?
PATE: Potentially is the big word there, Don. That's a very good point. I mean, you have to be extraordinarily careful now when you're talking to a subject of the investigation who's had a search warrant executed on his office, had documents taken, will likely be approached and interviewed again perhaps by someone in the United States attorney's office.
So if the president or anyone acting on his behalf suggests that Michael Cohen get rid of some documents, not provide some documents that may not have been seized or in any way tries to influence his testimony or cooperation with the government, yes, that could be a possible charge of obstruction. Completely separate from the Russian investigation.
LEMON: This is Monday. What is Tuesday going to bring? What is Friday going to bring? My goodness. This week is so long.
PATE: Don, that's the problem. We don't know what to expect. What we saw today from this president concerns me more than the investigation because he is unhinged. And Joe is right. A good lawyer would not put himself in the situation where he's both a friend and a legal counsel to someone like the president in these situations.
But Areva is also right. Who wants to represent this guy who is going to go out there and give this long -- this completely uncoached narrative in front of the media about his thoughts on an ongoing investigation? Difficult client and difficult circumstances.
LEMON: When these folks should be talking about chemical weapons attack in Syria which is of the utmost importance and very serious. Thank you, guys. I appreciate your time.
PATE: Thank you.
LEMON: When we come back, Mark Zuckerberg set to testify in front of Congress tomorrow where he is planning to take responsibility for Facebook's role in fake news and privacy leaks. But is it too little too late? For my next guest, it seems so. Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak joins me right after this.
[23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Mark Zuckerberg facing a grilling on Capitol Hill tomorrow as he tries to defend Facebook in the wake of news that 87 million users have their data compromised.
But Zuckerberg, well, he may have bigger problems as some of those users leave Facebook. One of them is the co-founder of Apple, Steve Wozniak. He joins me now.
Steve, it's so good to see you. Thank you for coming on and staying up late. You recently deactivated your own personal Facebook account. What led you to do that?
STEVE WOZNIAK, CO-FOUNDER, APPLE: Well, you know, over a long time you hear the complaints about Facebook and they're all standard and well known how they just treat your data as money and don't give you back enough for it and all this. But that builds up for a long time. Then recent time since the Cambridge Analytica scandal, it's kind of like, my gosh, if my data is being used by people to target myself and other users for political purposes, that started making me discuss it.
So about a week ago, I stopped using Facebook, maybe four or five days ago. Stopped using it. Carefully looked around. A couple of my friends have left Facebook, and family members. My wife and son are leaving Facebook or did. And good friends that I respect their integrity and their ethics left it.
And I said oh, when you see people you admire for how they think do things, I like to also get that in my head, so I just took the leap. I said, hey, I'll lose some good things, and I'll get back a life, kind of.
LEMON: Very interesting. Mark Zuckerberg is scheduled, Steve, to appear for hearings on Capitol Hill tomorrow and Wednesday. In advance of those hearings, he released this statement. Let me read it now.
He says, it's clear now that we didn't do enough to prevent those tools from being used for harm as well. That goes for fake news, foreign interference in elections and hate speech, as well as developers and data privacy. We didn't take a broad enough view of our responsibility and that was a big mistake. It was my mistake, and I'm sorry. I started Facebook, I run it, and I'm responsible for what happens here.
Do you think Zuckerberg is saying the right things and is Facebook doing the right things in response to this?
WOZNIAK: Yes, I think he's saying the right things. I don't think Facebook is going to do what I would consider for myself personally, you know, the right things, enough to make me want to get back on Facebook.
I can -- the things that were good about it, I can find other places easily. So, yes, the words are good. But Zuckerberg has been apologizing for, you know, year after year after year after year with kind of little words like that.
But Facebook really didn't get managed in way -- Facebook was a great thing and then its sort of management allowed it to go into some of these lesser areas in terms of ethics, caring about the people, the users.
Apple takes approach to protect privacy. And I believe in that very much myself as one of the founders of the EFF.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, I hope this interference in election, hate speech, which is one of my big issues. It's so hard to report someone on the staff hates speech on social media sites and especially Facebook and data privacy obviously.
But originally, listen, originally, Steve, we heard that Cambridge Analytica had accessed users data from some 50 million users. That number since gone up to as many as 87 million users. And just today, Facebook announced that they have suspended another data analytics company after data misuse. How deep do you think this could go?
WOZNIAK: Oh, a lot of us just sort of figured that's how it is, that's how they operate. Anything that's unsaid, companies are doing everything they can behind the scenes to further themselves or make a little money or whatever they are doing.
[23:45:01] You know, you click OK, you click accept, you agree to all the terms that everything I give you is yours, do anything with it, I don't get anything back. You've already agreed to that. So why do you think that they're going to be a little bit ethical and say we're going to protect some things that you really expect to be private.
LEMON: Yes.
WOZNIAK: That only comes once they get caught. It's going to be minor changes anyway. In my opinion, what Facebook should do is they should come out and say, we will offer a paid service and absolutely none of your data will go anywhere or be used in any of these ways or be passed on. Oh, I'd love that service. Let's see what the price is. That's what Apple does. They just put here's our price, it's a little bit high, but you get what you get and we don't take advantage of you and trick you and use yourself as the product.
LEMON: That's very interesting. I'm going to ask the guys. Would you pay for Facebook if they did that? Would you, guys? No? No? Some say yes. Some say no. Listen -- go ahead. What did you want to say?
WOZNIAK: Well, I feel that if they totally guaranteed a protection of all privacy, not using the data at all, Facebook has been a bad player, but theoretically they can turn good, but that's part of personality as I have been saying all day today. And the people that run Facebook and it's largely one person has all the controlling stock control, personality doesn't really change after you're about 23 years old.
The way that you make decisions and decide what's right, what's wrong, how should I behave, how should I treat others, those are things that just really don't change in people's lives. Some people turn out caring so much about protecting other humans and some people care about making the biggest buck off technology and putting it to the maximum use. I'm for the human over technology.
LEMON: I agree with you on that. I think you're right. Steve Wozniak, thank you again for coming on. Thanks for staying up late. Come back any time.
WOZNIAK: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: When we come back, the president is furious about the FBI's raid on Michael Cohen, but what about the rest of his party? How will they respond?
[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A furious President Trump slamming the FBI's raid today on his personal attorney Michael Cohen. I want to talk about this with CNN political commentators Angela Rye and Alice Stewart. Good evening to all of you.
Alice, welcome back.
ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Don. Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you so much. It's good to have you back.
STEWART: Great to be with you.
LEMON: Alice, the FBI raided the office and the residence of the president's personal attorney, Michael Cohen. Do you expect Republicans will address it?
STEWART: I think they have to. I think the president response for this was not the way he should have done it, for him to call this a witch hunt and an attack on our country. Look, an attack on our country was Russian interference in our elections. That's what we need to be talking about and addressing.
Look, what this is about, this is more than just raiding the offices of an attorney over hush money to a porn star. This is about credible evidence that was presented to a judge about allegations of illegal activity. That's what's the issue here. And if that's the case, that is a serious concern.
If the president didn't do that, and if he didn't interfere with -- coordinate with Russia on the election, which is a separate matter, if he is completely innocent of this, he should sit back, let the investigation play out, let the facts lead where they may, and he'll be completely exonerated in the end and he can say, I told you so.
LEMON: Angela, it sounds like you guys might agree tonight.
ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think so, Don. How refreshing is that in the late-night hour.
STEWART: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
RYE: Yes, we definitely agree on that part. The problem is what Alice just put forward is very, very wishful thinking. The president doesn't know how to sit back and let anything just happen. If perhaps he gets his phone confiscated, if perhaps he gets somehow locked out of his Twitter account, if perhaps no one asks him about this in the press, maybe.
But that's a whole lot of ifs and maybes. A whole lot would haves, could have, should have, that probably just aren't going to happen. I think that this particular raid today is damning as was the Paul Manafort raid. There were several charges for which Paul Manafort was indicted. Many of them related to Russia. Many of them related to Russia before the election.
But that does not in any way exonerate Donald Trump of any wrongdoing. The very fact that part of what they were going in to see were records of conversations and communications between Donald Trump and his lawyer and it is just not good. It does not look positive at all.
LEMON: I want to move on and I want to talk about the former attorney general, Loretta Lynch, speaking to NBC, I should say today. She was asked if Comey was wrong when he announced the findings of the FBI's Clinton e-mail investigation. She called Comey's public announcement an unusual move. It was a different way to deliver a recommendation to the attorney general. That was a quote. Should she have come down harder on Comey? First, Angela.
RYE: I don't know. I mean that seems like now a very distant memory. I think the one thing I would say is, hopefully everybody on the Democratic side of the aisle is ready to move forward and not look backwards at that. That seems like small potatoes, like the little teeny ones that you get at whole foods, the little baby potatoes, to where we are now. And I think the reality of it is Comey had a lot worse to deal with once he became a part of the Trump administration, as he saw, as he subsequently saw. I don't know about that.
LEMON: Alice? What do you think, Alice?
STEWART: The timing of his announcement was certainly inappropriate. I view those comments by Loretta Lynch -- in my view, it is more sour grapes by the Democrats. Look, they want to blame him, they want to blame Russia, they want to blame everything under the sun for Hillary Clinton losing the election.
And the fact that Donald Trump won because he connected with the American people, he campaigned in the Rust Belt states, and he was someone that the American people ultimately thought should lead this country. Democrats don't want to acknowledge that.
Granted, she won the popular vote, but she didn't win the electoral college. And we're going to continue, as Comey's book comes out, there's going to be more Democrats that are going to point the finger at him.
And the reality is, he wasn't the one that lost the election for Hillary Clinton. It was Hillary Clinton. And until the Democrats realize that, they're going to continue to be preaching to the choir.
[23:55:03] LEMON: You want to respond, Angela?
RYZE: Yes. What a difference 30 seconds makes. I totally disagree with Alice on this point.
(LAUGHTER)
RYE: I think that there is a lot that can be blamed for the election. Russia is certainly a part of it. We continue to see that each and every single day. But, she did win the popular vote. Unfortunately, we do have this thing called the electoral college that doesn't benefit people, especially those of us that look like Don and me, but that's a story for another day.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: OK. Thank you, Angela. I appreciate it. Listen, the reason I said welcome back to Alice, Alice had a death in her family. We were all thinking about you, Alice. Our thoughts and prayers went out with you.
STEWART: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: We're keeping you in our prayers. Thank you so much.
STEWART: Thank you.
LEMON: That's it for us tonight. Thanks for watching. I'll see you right back here tomorrow.
[24:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
