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Don Lemon Tonight

Police Questioned Kavanaugh after Bar Fight in 1985; Kanye's Outrageous Trump Rant on SNL Stage and Tweets on 13th Amendment; Trump Touts Low African-American Unemployment Numbers; How Kavanaugh Nomination Affects Image of the Supreme Court. Aired 11-12a ET

Aired October 01, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This just in tonight. I'm Don Lemon. Here is the big question for you right now -- who is Brett Kavanaugh? Who is Brett Kavanaugh? As the FBI investigates, classmates and acquaintances are coming out with stories to tell about his college years. The White House put out statements from two friends who say they never saw him black out drunk, but there are people who say otherwise. Including classmate Chad Ludington. Here is what he told Chris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAD LUDINGTON, YALE CLASSMATE OF BRETT KAVANAUGH: The general recollection that we all have of Brett being heavy drinker, getting rowdy, in a condition that it would be very difficult to remember things on all occasions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And Ludington also was at the bar brawl in 1985 that led new haven police to question Kavanaugh. CNN obtained the police report from that incident which says Kavanaugh threw ice at another person at the bar. All this opens up a lot of questions about what Kavanaugh told Congress last week and Ludington says this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUDINGTON: Yes, I believe that he lied and distorted and dissembled to the Senate Judiciary Committee. He obviously acknowledged drinking beer and beer and beer, but he also -- so he did say on occasion I had too much, but for me, he never acknowledged that he got to the point that he might not actually remember something. And, I find that very hard to believe, frankly. I find that impossible to believe actually.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: If Brett Kavanaugh drank so much that he can't recall some of what happened in his high school and college years that would cast doubt on his denials of the allegations against him. The President has made it clear that he wants the FBI to finish its investigation by the end of the week. After reports the White House limited the scope of the investigation, the President now says the FBI can do whatever it wants to do to get the answers.

So here is what we know so far, the FBI has spoken to Deborah Ramirez, she is a Yale classmate of Kavanaugh's who accuses him of exposing himself to her, which Kavanaugh denies. The FBI has also spoken to three people who Christine Blasey Ford says were there the night she was assaulted, including Mark Judge. So, where does the investigation go next? Where does it go? Let's break it down now with Josh Campbell, Mark Zaid and Robin Sax.

Thank you all. You guys should know with FBI experience and law enforcement experience. So, Mark, this report that Kavanaugh was involved in a bar fight in 1985, does this factor into the investigation, do you think?

MARK ZAID, NATIONAL SECURITY ATTORNEY: It wouldn't normally. On the sf-86 the standard national security form which even as a federal judiciary nominee, he does not require security clearance by virtue of his position he is deemed to be trustworthy, but they still fill out that form because it is a 127 pages and it's a great first start and then has a Senate application paperwork that he fills out too, but being questioned by the police would never come up on the form. It could potentially come up in an interview or perhaps a colleague or friend may say something, but that would never have come up normally.

LEMON: Especially if you weren't the person -- well, apparently he threw ice, but I don't think he was the one that was at the center of it. Robin, how far should the FBI be going to figure out if Kavanaugh is telling the truth about his drinking?

ROBIN SAX, CLINICAL THERAPIST: Well, you would never have an investigation any case where you have it time limited unless you have a statute of limitations issue. Even if it was a misdemeanor, the most lowest level with any kind of sexual assault crime is a misdemeanor you would have a year statute of limitations. The investigation is supposed to lead what happens next in the investigation. So you interview someone and then that interview leads you to your next interview until you know that you have all the information.

[23:05:03] So the issue of thinking that we know where this can begin and end in one week's period of time is ridiculous especially if you think about of any one of these interviews probably being two to three hours a piece.

LEMON: Yes. Is the assault allegation, the sexual assault allegation, being forgotten, Robin?

SAX: I think it is. We're not talking one sexual assault allegations, we're talking multiple sexual assault allegations here. If you are just even looking at the allegations against Dr. Ford, that in of it as itself, we have already identified 65 possible witnesses that Brett Kavanaugh listed who had come forward supposedly supporting him. Everyone one of those 65 people should be interviewed to find out what they know.

LEMON: Well, that is going to take a lot of work. Josh, listen, the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee, they sent a letter to the White House and to the FBI Director with a list of people that they believe should be interviewed. They said it was friends of Blasey Ford, classmates of Kavanaugh's, as well as Julie Swetnick. What do you think? Should the FBI be looking to talk to as many people as possible?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. More is always better in an investigation. And I think this shows how far apart both sides are here. We have the White House essentially saying we want to limit this to a handful of people, maybe four individuals and Senate Democrats are saying, no, there's this whole body of people out there, this whole plethora of potential witnesses that you need to talk to in order to get the full scope.

Now the fact of the matter is that if you're the FBI, you know what it is that you want to look for. You want to look for people that are credible. Obviously their allegations that come to light that the FBI will try to sass down and run down. The problem is, is that they are limited in scope in what they can look at.

I know, there's been reporting in the last few hours saying this thing, the White House is saying, no, the FBI can look at whatever it wants, but if you look at the President's press conference today, there were so many caveats there. He would say, I want FBI to look at wherever they want within reason. It is like that caveat within reason that the White House gets to define.

LEMON: They can control the scope? They define it?

CAMPBELL: Absolutely. That is sort of the reporting we've been doing over the weekend talking with folks that are familiar with the ongoing investigation that are saying that. Look, in this case, the FBI is working as an investigative arm on behalf of the White House, which is their client. So, the White House sets the terms. They can dictate who they are able to look at. The problem is that I think we're falling victims to spin where the White House is saying, no, the FBI can do whatever they want. At the end of the day, there's that caveat. The FBI has to go back to the White House and ask for specific permission before they can open that up.

LEMON: So for someone like, because -- what the Democrats said on the judiciary committee, they said Blasey Ford, that is an obvious right, friends of Blasey Ford, classmates of Kavanaugh as well as Julie Swetnick, which is another accuser, but is that -- will they do that? Because --

CAMPBELL: Yes. I think it's yet to be seen. I think Robin made a great point, which he said, look, interviews beget other interviews. Right, you talk to one person, they are going to tell you information that you may want to glean. Obviously we learned from a reporting that Mrs. Ramirez, that she actually gave the FBI additional names. So, this arbitrary one week deadline that the FBI is having to operate under, I think is ultimately going to be a disservice to the full investigation. Because it simply leaves lingering questions whether it was done in a way that really provides a full picture of what this person is in his life. LEMON: And it gives the Republican committee who had some doubt about

it, it gives them cover to say, we went with the investigation.

CAMPBELL: That is it, Don. That is the point. They are basically putting the FBI's good housekeeping stamp of approval on investigation that is limited in scope.

LEMON: Mark, do you the FBI will eventually be able to prove that some of the statements Kavanaugh made about his drinking are false?

ZAID: Well, good question. Question, of course, is whether or not they're going to be actually interviewing people regarding his drinking habits outside of any relationship that it might have to the allegations of sexual assault. Their issue of course will go to what his Yale classmate was talking about, did he lie to the Senate Judiciary Committee. Because the alcohol use itself back in high school and college is not going to be particularly relevant to the determination today.

You know, he has had six background investigations. We never heard that I know of any current concerns of alcohol abuse or misuse or problems with alcoholism. Now, there could obviously be things that come up in these interviews. So, for example, I'm totally making this up, if some witness says I saw him snort cocaine back in Yale or something like that, well, he filled out sf-86 background investigative questionnaires multiple times.

He entered government service in the early 90's. They will go back seven, 10 sometimes 15 years. And who knows what he might have said. But the drinking itself, not just an example but this is something that could come up. The drinking itself know, you know not going to be any issue on unless the senators push on the issue of what did he tell us, the committee that may be different from what we are learning from multiple other witnesses.

LEMON: Robin, the outside council counsel hired by Republicans, Rachel Mitchell, was her name.

[23:10:00] She wrote a memo saying that she wouldn't press charges if this allegation was brought to her. She wrote, a, he said/she said case is incredibly difficult to prove, but this case is even weaker than that. Tell me what you make of that assessment.

SAX: Well, I would really be happy to know that Rachel Mitchell would weigh to press charges until she get a full investigation. Because that is exactly the role of the prosecutor. What you would expect the prosecutor do is to listen to the statement and then corroborate or not corroborate or look for other witnesses in this case. And I think actually the point about Kavanaugh not being honest is a very critical aspect because there is an aspect of the case where a witness who is materially false in one area can be distrusted in every area. Then that becomes relevant to the investigation. So, to think that Ms. Mitchell knows how she would handle the filing of a case without a shred of other evidence is ridiculous.

LEMON: All right. Thank you all. I appreciate it. So, if you thought Kanye's rant after the critics rolled on SNL was

nuts, by the way, I was there. I'll give you inside information. Wait until you hear what he tweeted.

[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Kanye, Kanye, Kanye. What do you say about Kanye? A lot. Today he says he wants to end the rift between Colin Kaepernick and President Trump by setting up a meeting. Yesterday while wearing a red Trump hat he tweets he wants to abolish the 13th amendment. You know, the one that ended slavery. That was after changing his name early Saturday to, I don't know if it's ye. It's y-e. I don't know what it is. And later that same night giving several bizarre performances on "Saturday Night Live" one when he rants about Trump and slavery and the media and plantations to name a few. Chris Rock was in the audience. He recorded it and posted on social media. A lot of people did.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Sometimes I talk to like a white person about this. I say, how can you like Trump? He is racist? Well -- they laughing at me. They scream at me. They bully me. They bully me back stage. They say don't go out there with that MAGA hat on. They bully me back stage. I think the universe has balance. 90 percent of news are liberal. I thought this country said I couldn't be me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So it was very uncomfortable. The host was Adam Driver. He left the stage. The cast members were some of them were like just had their heads down. They don't let you leave the show until it's over. That is 1:00 a.m. Eastern. This went on after the show and people wanted to get up, including us, we didn't want to listen to that bull shit and they wouldn't let us out.

So Van Jones, Nina Turner, Alice Stewart and Steve Cortes are all here. Thank you so much for joining us. Van, I was in the audience at "SNL." The worst that had happen after the credits rolled, the cast was uncomfortable as well as the audience. Van, was this a publicity stunt?

VAN JONES, CNN ANCHOR: You know, it's hard to know. I don't necessarily think so. I think that -- I just talked to Kim Kardashian earlier today, I think that he is trying to take a stand in his own mind for independence of thought. I think that he fundamentally feels that there's too much of restriction on --

LEMON: Did Kim say that to you?

JONES: Yes. I mean -- yes. So, you asked the question. Do I think it's a publicity stunt? I think he in his own mind is authentically trying to make a point that I think he is making very, very badly and I think he is making it in a way that makes it impossible for people to actually take what he is saying seriously, but I don't think that it's -- I don't think he is cooking up something in a laboratory to keep himself in the news. I think he actually believes that there is a suppression of thought. He wants to be able to take whatever independences that he wants to take and that is what he is trying to do.

LEMON: OK. All right, Nina, what do you think? Does he need a lesson in black history? What do you think of it what Van would do?

NINA TURNER, FORMER OHIO STATE SENATOR: Very much so. I agree with Van. I don't believe it's a publicity stunt. He doesn't need to do that. He has all of the cachet that is necessary to get any message across that he wants. But, you know, in some ways there are things that are sacred in this country. Talking about the history and the legacy of slavery and bigotry and what Africans and then later African-Americans their descendants had to endure in this country to take in the way of their humanity is something that we just don't play with.

And so for Kanye to talk about abolishing the 13th amendment to the constitution which was the amendment that abolished slavery in this country and to talk about those issues in such a flippant way just is not the right thing to do. He doesn't understand the legacy of that. And also, how it continues to move and feed in this country even to this day.

LEMON: Nina, he said he was trying to make more of a point about you know, about Presidents, but again --

TURNER: Just make that point, Don.

LEMON: Exactly.

TURNER: Don't play with it. Slavery is not -- don't play with it.

JONES: I agree with Nina. Those at home who may not follow this, the 13th amendment abolishes slavery except for people in prison. What he was trying to say is let's also give freedom to people who have been incarcerated, et cetera, but again trying to make an arguably good point very, very badly.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don, I think there's a lot to unpack in what he said. Clearly he touched on many different topics, but one that really resonated with me and I think a lot of people that may or may not watch account "Saturday Night Live" is the overall tone that liberals and those on the left and the big apple and Hollywood, even though I know this is filmed the heart of New York City in Manhattan, those on the left often try to dictate how people think, what they wear, what they see, what they watch on television, how they hear their music, and that was the point he was trying to make, I think, overall is that don't be brainwashed by the entertainment industry. He even mentioned those in the news.

[23:20:33] LEMON: Alice, don't you think people on the right do the same thing especially when it comes to religion, how you feel about God, what you should be able to do with your body, how you should feel about the second amendment? How you should feel about a lot of things? Don't you think the right does the same thing, but no one really calls them out for that? Isn't that more restricted by telling people what they can do with themselves and how they should think about who they should love and who they can be able to marry?

STEWART: Look, he specifically talking about the liberal media and entertainment. And specifically pointing out, look, I'm wearing this MAGA hat back stage at "SNL" and they are trying to tell me to take it off, they are trying to tell me what to wear and what to say. He is calling out what he sees as inaccuracies or trying to sway the viewing public when it comes to the entertainment industry.

And those on the right don't have that avenue. They don't have a "Saturday Night Live." They don't have Hollywood in New York. He is specifically calling that out and also making the point -- one thing I disagree on, don't so much follow your heart or your head. I think you should be able to follow your heart and your head and do things whether you're making a political statement or entertainment. Doing it from the heart and from your head at the same time.

LEMON: And there are plenty conservatives in Hollywood, by the way. Steve, go ahead.

STEVE CORTES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there's not plenty. But to that point, Don, it's telling --

LEMON: There are.

CORTES: In describing his statements you called it a rant. You called it bull shit. You called it bizarre. I don't think you say any of those terms when leftists in Hollywood get up at every single awards show --

LEMON: OK. Let me stop. Every point. Every point. Every point. Every point. So that point you're wrong, because in order not to be a rant, right, it would have to make sense. What he said did not make sense. He kept throwing up topic after topic and not explaining -- no it did not make sense and you weren't there, you did not hear the whole thing. What you heard were snippets on the Internet, you did not hear the entire thing, OK?

CORTES: I heard the entire thing. Yes I did, Don. I heard the whole thing. You know what I heard, I heard him talk about the intolerance of the left. I heard him say that they demand conformity.

LEMON: If you think "Saturday Night Live" is the left and they're intolerant, then why would they invite him there? You think they are stupid? They don't know what Kanye is going to do. You think Kanye did all of that in rehearsals before the show? The entire week of the show people were tweeting out Kanye has lost his mind. Wearing a Kaepernick shirt and Donald Trump hat. You don't think they knew that? So why would they invite him there if they didn't want that message to get out?

CORTES: Don, did you invite me here to answer questions or --

LEMON: No, I invited you here to tell the truth and you're not being honest, but go on. CORTES: Wait. What lie did I tell? What lie did I tell?

LEMON: You said he made sense. He did not.

CORTES: He made perfect sense to me.

LEMON: You said that the liberals did not want his -- did not want him getting his voice out and what he said to get out. They invited him there and gave him the platform.

CORTES: No, they did not give him the platform. Not for his speech. Look, what he talked about is true when he said that 90 percent of performers, 90 percent of media are uniform and they're uniform on the left and they are uniform in their division for Donald Trump and for his supporters. What he is saying is, which I think is important --

LEMON: Is that a scientific mathematical fact, 90 percent?

CORTES: We people of color have been taken for granted by the Democratic Party for decades. And it has not resulted in the security and prosperity of our communities. It's time to try something different. And he, as an artist and a businessman, is saying, I am willing to listen to Donald Trump partly because of the early results that are greatly increasing the prosperity and security of minority communities.

TURNER: Early results?

CORTES: Minorities are great again, because Hispanic wages are --

LEMON: Excuse me. Minorities are great again. Oh my god. Go ahead, Nina.

TURNER: Oh my god. I must call oh Jesus right about now. I must call oh Jesus. What are you talking about?

(CROSSTALK)

CORTES: That are unleashing entrepreneurialism, that are unleashing prosperity --

TURNER: For whom? The challenges in the African-American community are systemic, it is not just about one President. It is systemic in this country. There was a study that showed they would take 228 years for the average African-American to catch up with the average white American. So we're talking about systems that are bigger than one President and also bigger than Kanye West.

[23:25:11] And the point about the unemployment rate, yes, there's no doubt that the unemployment rate is lower, but when you look at the quality of jobs, and I have traveled to almost 40 states in the country talking to people from all walks of life, guess what, they're still suffering. And African-Americans are still suffering, especially. So this one President hasn't changed anything because it's going to take America to have some real truth and reconciliation and that cannot just be laid at the feet of the Democrats. Although I do agree with Kanye in that the Democratic Party in some ways have definitely taken African-American community for granted, but make no mistake, the Republican Party is not the Republican Party of Lincoln. It is not the radical Republicans of yesterday. Make no mistake. So don't try to hold on to that. Let's be honest about what's going on in this country.

LEMON: Van Jones is raising his hand. Van, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. Van is back, Nina, Alice and Steve. OK. Van, I know you wanted to get in, I do have to say -- I don't know if I stressed enough, I was torn about even doing this segment and giving this a platform because I thought it was a publicity stunt, number one. And number two, I'm concerned about Kanye. I'll just leave it at that. But go on, Van. You want to get in.

JONES: The only thing I wanted to say is that Steve was bringing up the point and it's become a very strong argument from the Republicans that people of color doing so much better under Donald Trump. And I just think that it's a little bit more complicated than that.

The actual numbers show that while there has been improvement for people of color and frankly for everybody when it comes to unemployment, the rate of the improvement has actually slowed down under Trump. In other words, both parties should be proud.

Obama got us out of the ditch and began moving those unemployment numbers in the right direction and Trump has continued that motion, even though the motion has actually slowed down a little bit. So both parties actually should be able to give ourselves some high fives and say, listen, together as a country we got out of this ditch and we're moving in the right direction.

Instead, what Trump has said is that under Obama everything was terrible which is not true, and under him everything is great which is not true. And so I think the problem is that even they try to have a discussion about the future as Nina was trying to talk about, about how we can actually deal with some systemic issues, you have to go through all this sort of nonsense about Obama sucked and Trump is great.

Both presidents have done a good job of moving us out of the hell of 10 years ago, but we have a long way to go forward, and can't have even a communication honestly about that. I think it's terrible.

LEMON: Here's -- Nina, this is what the president said about this at the presser today. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Remember this, and you've heard me say it a lot, I'm very proud of it, African- American unemployment. Think of it. African-American unemployment just reached the lowest level ever recorded. Right? Right? After years of Democrats failing and abandoning African-Americans, Republicans are delivering for African-Americans like never before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So Nina, is he taking credit for something he doesn't deserve for job growths? Should they be thanking President Obama?

TURNER: Oh, absolutely. I mean, definitely thanking President Obama. None of this all happens under one president. It takes years and years and years to do this kind of thing. But you know, Don, another point to this is also the quality of jobs.

I mean, we have a president and a Republican Party that has balanced the budget off of the backs of the working poor and middle class in this country with all of the tax breaks, starving government, starving the services that people need to thrive in this country.

So it's not just a one-dimensional variable here. We have to take all of these variables. We still have in the city of Flint, for example, our sisters and brothers in Flint still don't have clean water. Where is the major infrastructure bill that we need to make sure that we rebuild roads and bridges and water systems in this country?

Those are the kinds of things that bring true quality of life, not just looking at one snapshot in time in terms of unemployment rate when people still have to work two and three jobs just to make ends meet. You know, Don, I was just recently at a Marriott recently in the bay area.

And some of the workers there had name tags on their uniforms that said, one job should be enough. Well, you know what, in America, one job should be enough. So the unemployment rate is one thing. I'm not going -- the numbers are what they are. But it's also about the quality of jobs that people have to work.

LEMON: OK. Alice?

STEWART: Don, I will say this, another take away from the snippets of what Kanye said that stood with me was overall not so much promoting President Trump, but looking at the overall Democratic plan which he specifically said, the Democratic thought of promoting welfare and years under Democratic leadership where fathers have come out of the home and welfare has been more of the forefront. Republican policies and Republican plan is more about giving --

TURNER: What about corporate welfare? What about corporate welfare?

STEWART: -- and pushing people to unite the family --

TURNER: You know what, what about corporate welfare in this country?

LEMON: One at a time, please. One at a time, please.

TURNER: That is asinine, Don. I'm sorry. What about corporate welfare in this country? You know, the reverend Dr. Martin Luther King talked about it's always rugged for the everyday man and woman. But when it comes to corporation, you want to talk about individuals who need a hand up, I have not met any person in all of my life thus far who has ever wanted to be poor.

Being poor is hard. You want to talk about hand outs. The hand out that the Republican Party just gave to billionaires in this country on the backs of the working poor and the middle class, that's what we should be talking about hand outs.

CORTES: Except the numbers don't -- except, Nina, the numbers don't back what you're talking about.

TURNER: No, the numbers do back what I'm talking about, 86 percent of it is on the back of --

CORTES: -- because Hispanic incomes went up over the last year 3.7 percent, vastly outpacing white incomes, vastly outpacing the country as a whole.

[23:35:07] TURNER: You know what --

CORTES? Why I believe? For two reasons primarily, because Donald Trump is finally -- I'm talking because Donald Trump is finally getting us into fair and reasonable trade deals --

LEMON: OK. Don't worry. We're going to finish.

CORTES: -- and he's restraining --

TURNER: Donald Trump is a miracle worker, right? He's a miracle worker.

CORTES: -- and he's restraining illegal immigration. Illegal immigration has decimated black and brown workers in this country.

LEMON: We'll continue after the break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. I'm back now with everyone. Let's continue to talk about this unemployment and everyone was talking about, oh, well it's welfare this, it's welfare that.

[23:40:03] Why don't we call it welfare when we're bailing farmers out $12 billion from trade dispute? They call it either direct payments or direct assistance. There's a lot of people in the country who complain about -- people in the middle of the country complain about the people on the coast a lot, but a lot of those subsidies that the people in the middle of the country are getting are coming from us folks here who work on the coast.

So, why isn't it called welfare unless people of color are getting money from the government?

JONES: You know, I like to just add one thing to that --

LEMON: Steve, anybody, quiet? OK, go on, Van.

JONES: You know, there's this kind of mythology and talking point from the right wing that what's wrong with the African-American community which unfortunately often these people never visit and go to, they think they know but they don't show up, and they say, well, you know, welfare, that's why.

And what -- honestly, it gets very, very frustrating. To your point, the government supports lots and lots of people in this country and it should. But what they don't talk about is the fact that the African- American community has been overly incarcerated, excessively incarcerated.

African-American young people for instance and white young people do drugs at the exactly the same rate statistically. And yet African- American people are sent to prison not twice as often, not three times as often, six times as often for the same low-level offenses.

Well, if you incarcerate -- I went to Yale law school. I saw more kids doing drugs at Yale, Kavanaugh, than I ever saw kids doing drugs in housing project by far. None of those kids were ever arrested. None of those kids went to prison. Four blocks away in the housing projects, every one of those kids wind up getting arrested.

So if you're really concerned about what's happening in the African- American, cherry picking this ideology around welfare is convenient. But if you really want to do something, we need to have fairness across the board when it comes to education, when it comes to criminal justice system and other things.

My problem with what's happening with Republican Party right now, is that there is an opening for the Republican Party to try to make up for some of these problems in the black community that maybe Democrats have failed on, but what I'm mainly hearing is a lot of cherry picking of data and demagoguery and stereotyping and it actually is going to make it harder for the Republican Party to reap those gains.

And then they will say when we don't vote for them, well these guys, they'll just lay the people that want welfare. And I think it's sad and unfortunate.

CORTES: I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you that we incarcerate way too many people. United States has four percent of the world's population, I believe a quarter of the world's prisoners. That's an outrage. I hate big government. I hate a government that jails too many people. And I hate big government that over-regulates and hands out favors to corporations.

What I want is entrepreneurial capitalism. And the people who benefit the most from entrepreneurial deregulated capitalism are black and brown people. Because they don't have to then climb a corporate ladder. They start mom and pop shops that become much bigger than mom and pop shops. That's happening under Donald Trump. Small business is absolutely soaring in this country.

JONES: You and I agree on a couple things.

CORTES: It's the reason that Hispanics are doing as well as Hispanics in particular are doing right now. So, I agree, incarceration absolutely brutalizes minority communities.

LEMON: What do you do with all of those people who have been locked up for maybe carrying marijuana, selling marijuana, and then you have people touting, well, you know, this guy's marijuana business is worth billions of dollars and they are getting a pat on the back for it.

But you have people who are sitting in jail rotting because they sold marijuana, did the same thing, but they're not getting --

JONES: It's worse than that, Don.

CORTES: I don't think non-violence offenders should be in prison. I just don't. I think --

JONES: Steve and I agree on a couple of things. But let me just say to your point, Don, it's worse than you what you say because they've actually in most of these states, Don, they made it where if you have a conviction for selling marijuana, you can now not get a legal license to do it.

LEMON: Right.

JONES: So the people who created the market, the hustlers who created the market you can't cash in. Meanwhile --

LEMON: Ain't that just the way it is always. Go on.

JONES: That's terrible. But I just want to point out, Steve and I agree on some things. I'm a big believer in entrepreneurship, innovation, all that kind of stuff. And I'm for it and out here trying to help young people break into Silicon Valley with "Yes We Code" and other programs.

But I think we sometimes part company, is that we then go beyond those facts. Listen, in order to be a good entrepreneur, you also have to be able to benefit from some public programs. Public education. After school programs. A lot of things.

We ask for those things to give the spring board for entrepreneurship. That's called pork barrel spending, you got your hand out for a hand out, and we are the only people who when we get help from the government, it's stigmatized. Farmers are not stigmatized. Pentagon is not stigmatized.

STEWART: Don --

LEMON: Go ahead, Alice.

STEWART: Let me just say I was in Arkansas just a few weeks ago talking to farmers, doing a story on this very issue. And these farmers work very hard all day long, all year long.

[23:44:57] And sometimes they need these subsidies in order to help them to continue to turn over the crops, buy equipment, and make sure that they can produce their harvest and sell their harvest at a profit and put food on the table for all American people. These people work hard and the subsidies are vital --

JONES: We're not criticizing them.

TURNER: A lot of people work -- yeah, we absolutely need the farmers but the same farmers -- I was just in Iowa a few months ago where they talk about these big factory farms that are taking over from the small business farmers.

So again, we want to talk about deregulation. Deregulation is one thing, but we should not deregulate to such a point that we no longer have an expectation in this country of clean water, clean air and clean food.

LEMON: I got it. I got to go, Nina. But listen, no one is disparaging the farmers. We're just talking about the difference the way we classify it. Where we see people of color, it's a hand out. Farmers, they need the assistance. A lot of people need the assistance. A lot of people need to make ends meat.

JONES: Don, if you work at Walmart and you have to get on food stamps and you're a person of color, then you're stigmatized. If you're a farmer and you work hard and you get help from the government, you're a noble person. We have to stop that.

TURNER: Black coals are still in full effect.

LEMON: Thank you. Don't miss Van Jones' show Saturday at seven. An empty seat on the bench as the Supreme Court begins its new term. Imagine what the justices are thinking about Judge Brett Kavanaugh. We'll discuss.

[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The Supreme Court is back in session, but with only eight justices. This is the second time that's happened in recent years. There were also eight justices from February 2016, when Justice Antonin Scalia died to April of 2017 when Justice Neil Gorsuch was confirmed. And you remember why that happened, because Republicans refused to even consider President Obama's nominee, Judge Merrick Garland. Chief Justice John Roberts insisted the court was above politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE: Throughout this whole process, the Supreme Court has been quietly going about its business of deciding the cases before it according to the constitution in a completely nonpartisan way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But what happens now with all the turmoil over Brett Kavanaugh? Let's discuss now. David Kaplan is here, the author of "The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault on the Constitution." Good evening, sir. Welcome.

DAVID KAPLAN, AUTHOR: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: Thank you for coming on. Listen, what if Brett Kavanaugh isn't telling the truth about his drinking when he was under oath. Does that disqualify him?

KAPLAN: Sure. You have to prove it to the level that those voting the senators require. I'm just not sure that will be what disqualifies him if he's disqualified.

LEMON: Yeah. In these types of proceedings, do people and other people who were vying to be judges, do they twist the truth or embellish?

KAPLAN: Everybody embellishes, conveniently forgets. Everybody fibs. The question is, how far do you go? Kavanaugh a month ago in his initial round of testimony and then last Thursday seemed to have pushed the boundaries. And I think even his supporters were troubled by some of his evasions and disingenuous responses. For example, about the yearbook. That doesn't help --

LEMON: What do you mean?

KAPLAN: Well, he said -- he was asked about various notations in the yearbook, and his answers simply were ridiculous. Now, he's not going to be disqualified on that basis, but tell a little fib, tell a big fib, tell a big lie. He didn't help his credibility. And if you talk to Republican senators, they did not think it was the greatest performance they'd ever seen by a nominee.

LEMON: They won't say that publicly, but they'll say it privately.

KAPLAN: They want to put him on the Supreme Court by hook or by crook.

LEMON: Yeah. You say the same thing that I say. If you tell lies about little things, little things. Like I had to tell a white lie tonight and I actually had to confess to someone like, OK, I told a white lie tonight --

KAPLAN: When you have to confess a while lie, it's not as effective.

LEMON: It's not as ---

KAPLAN: It doesn't work as well.

LEMON: It's true. I mean, talk about that more, because if you tell lies about small things, because if you look at the first testimony I'm a choir boy, and then the second one about, well, I drink but I'm still a choir boy --

KAPLAN: Every prosecutor and defense lawyer will tell you, don't lie, even about little things, because when you're caught in a little lie, it hurts your credibility before a jury. Now, there's not a jury here. They're senators, almost all of whom have made up their minds, but there's also the court of public opinion. And Kavanaugh did himself no good with the white lies last week, just like he did no good by invoking the Clintons and Democratic interest groups. It just wasn't in his interest although to the extent he decided, I only need to please the man who appointed me, Donald Trump, then I guess it's hard to argue with success because he's closer to nomination or to confirmation now than he was last week.

LEMON: Let's get to the current justices. What do you think they think about this, his testimony?

KAPLAN: Well, they hate this controversy. They like to think of themselves as above all this. They're just across the street from Congress living in a marble temple, but they just hate the court being brought down to this level. They won't say so, and of course they're watching, but this drives them nuts just as it did 30 years ago with Clarence Thomas.

LEMON: So, 2009, this is Chief Justice John Roberts, what he said about the role of the court back then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: I think the most important thing for the public to understand is that we are not a political branch of government. They don't elect us if they don't like what we're doing. It's more or less just too bad other than impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, so considering what Kavanaugh said --

KAPLAN: That's that line, that's too bad.

LEMON: Yeah.

[23:55:00] KAPLAN: Arrogant on the chief's part but accurate.

LEMON: Think about this and I'm paraphrasing, this is all -- you know, the Clintons' revenge for the Clintons, it's a Democratic -- basically saying it was a witch hunt or what have you. Does joining the court having said something like that, considering his past, what he's done with other things and Ken Starr and all of that, does that ring true what the chief justice said right there?

KAPLAN: Well, no, but once they get across the street, they tend to appear to rise above all this. You know, Clarence Thomas had searing hearings 30 years ago.

LEMON: Yes.

KAPLAN: But he's functioned effectively as a justice. When I wrote my book and I interviewed majority of the justices -- I can't tell you who I talked to -- and I asked them about Clarence Thomas, most of them just kind of shrugged or smiled and said, he's been a perfectly effective justice. Some of us agree with him, some of us do not. But they tend to be pretty far removed, but not a political institution. Of course, it's a political institution. They don't necessarily act as politicians, and I think they make an attempt to act as judges, not politicians. But whether they're effective or not is another story.

LEMON: So he could go on and serve on the court and be fine. Do you think he'll be confirmed?

KAPLAN: I really don't know. I would say, 50-50. I say (INAUDIBLE) he would not be confirmed, then I said of course six hours later he probably would be. I really think it depends on what the FBI turns up. I also think it depends on what's going on in the offices of senators Collins and Murkowski.

What are they hearing from constituents and what are they hearing from precinct leaders, because those senators may listen to the politics and vote accordingly. They want to keep their seats.

LEMON: David Kaplan, a pleasure. Thank you.

KAPLAN: Pleasure.

LEMON: Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

[24:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)