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Don Lemon Tonight
Brett Kavanaugh Sworn In As Supreme Court Justice; President Trump Apologizes To Kavanaugh At Swearing In, Falsely Claims He Was Proven Innocent; SNL Takes on Kavanaugh Confirmation; SNL's Locker Room Kavanaugh Victory Party; Gloating Over Kavanaugh Confirmation; Trump Holds Ceremonial Swearing-in Of Justice Kavanaugh At The White House; NYT: Kanye West Expected To Visit President Trump At The White House; Donald Trump Urges Chicago To Adopt 'Stop And Frisk' Policies. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired October 08, 2018 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Judge Brett Kavanaugh is now officially Justice Brett Kavanaugh. Set to hear his first case tomorrow morning as a matter of fact. President Trump used the swearing in, his ceremony, to settle some political scores, apologizing to Kavanaugh for the sexual assault accusations against him during his confirmation.
That came just hours after the President took a shot at Christine Blasey Ford, calling her story, and this is a quote here, because it's grammatically incorrect, "Democrat masterminded hoax." That is what he said. It should be Democratic masterminded hoax. Remember how just after Ford's gut-wrenching testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee he called her a credible witness? Well, now the President blames what he calls evil people for the accusations against Kavanaugh.
So, I want to bring in now CNN Legal Analyst, Jack Quinn, also Gregg Nunziata who has previously served as chief nominations counsel to the Senate Judiciary Committee, and April Ryan, the author of "Under Fire: Reporting from the Front Lines of the Trump White House."
Happy Monday, everyone. Good evening. Thank you for coming on.
April, I'm going to start with you. We saw Kavanaugh at this ceremonial swearing in tonight with the President. They were at the White House. The President said something that has a lot of people doing a double take. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What happened to the Kavanaugh family violates every notion of fairness, decency and due process. Our country, a man or a woman must always be presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty.
(APPLAUSE)
And with that I must state that you, sir, under historic scrutiny were proven innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, April. That is not -- that is not what happened.
APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALIST: Brett Kavanaugh was not on trial. There was no jury or judge that said he was innocent. This President misspoke. And what we find is this President says things, knowingly or unknowingly, that his constituency, that is a supporters believe. And he changes --
LEMON: You don't think that was written?
RYAN: -- the scope or the shape of what it looks like.
LEMON: You don't think that was written? You don't think those words were up there on the teleprompter?
RYAN: It could have been written, but I guarantee you -- it could have been written, but I guarantee you that was the mindset, that was the thought within -- that permeated through that west wing and over into the old executive office building where the speech writers are and those who helped craft what he has to say or try to help him, but you always have to remember, there is shock and awe with anything the President says, but at this same moment this President is trying to continue saying that Brett Kavanaugh was the victim.
When indeed you have a larger swath of America who are very upset about what happened in this -- in the Senate hearings and the fact that they said it was a limited scope. According to what we heard from the FBI, in this limited scope, you know, he was not -- he was not found innocent. Just there was no supporting facts for Dr. Ford.
LEMON: There was no corroborating evidence, but --
RYAN: Right.
LEMON: And listen, we don't know. We can't speak --
RYAN: If there was a broader investigation, yes.
LEMON: We can't speak to his guilt or innocence. We don't know because it hasn't been proven, but to make him out as a victim is certainly an interesting turn here. Especially, Greg, from the man who said "lock her up," right? The entire campaign. Lock her up and then you know what he did with the central park five even after they were exonerated, he still said it was a sham and a travesty, paraphrasing here, that they were exonerated. Proven innocent? Really?
GREGG NUNZIATA, FORMER CHIEF NOMINATIONS COUNSEL TO THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, of course, I mean, that is not what this process is about. And besides, it's hard to ever prove your innocence or to prove a negative, but look, I think a lot of this is just another example of how we've become more and more tribal, more and more polarized as a country. You see this in the polls where the strongest predictors of whether you believe Kavanaugh or Ford was which Party you belonged to.
[23:05:05] It's an unfortunate place to be as a country, that if we're willing to automatically believe that someone from the other Party is a rapist or automatically disbelieve an accuser, because they belong to the opposite Party.
LEMON: And Greg, we just put up the poll a couple of segments before this one that showed that both Senate Republicans and Senate Democrats are not faring well with this. It's about half and half, right? 50- 50, that say they both handled it terribly.
NUNZIATA: Yes. I mean, it was an ugly and imperfect process from the start. And our nominations process is getting uglier and uglier over time. I think there's been mistakes and bad acts on both sides, but it's a one-way ratchet. Everyone wants to kind of repay the other side for their wrongs when they're in power. And that is doing damage to the senate's credibility and to the court.
LEMON: Jack, I know you're always looking for a way for people to come together, you're look at the bright side. So, I'm going to ask you this question. Do you think Kavanaugh was successful in turning down the temperature, particularly given what we heard from the President just moments before Kavanaugh spoke?
JACK QUINN, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Before I credit him, may I just add one more word about what the President was doing? The President was at a political rally. Brett Kavanaugh and the eight other members of the Supreme Court were at the investiture of a Supreme Court associate justice. They were like, you know, Mars and Venus. They were in totally different events. And the President was so tone deaf to the importance of this event for the country and to --
LEMON: Do you think the justices were sitting there going, oh god?
QUINN: They had to be. I mean, this was -- the President's job at a moment like this is to unify, is to bring the country together, is to begin the process of healing, is to be at least gracious enough to recognize that wounds to the country after a bitter struggle like this need to be healed. He failed to do that.
LEMON: Jack, it's 2018. Donald Trump is the President. That is not how he operates.
QUINN: Correct.
LEMON: And I don't know, we shouldn't be surprised every single time that -- because that is just -- he can't help himself.
QUINN: Yes, but it needs to be constantly pointed out. And I will say that look, Brett Kavanaugh for his part -- and you know, because I've done it a gazillion times on your show, was a fierce opponent of his nomination. I was really concerned about his views about expansive executive power, his changed views about that. I became a pretty strong opponent and particularly after Dr. Ford came forward, but I will say that today, tonight Justice Kavanaugh was gracious. He showed a dose of humility that we sure didn't see in front of that Senate Judiciary Committee. I think he struck the right tone. I'm going to be watching carefully because --
LEMON: Tomorrow morning.
QUINN: Yes. If he falls down and starts, you know, veering where I think he might, I will be a fierce opponent again.
LEMON: Yes, but I don't know if there's much recourse at anybody has at this point because these are lifetime opponents, but April --
QUINN: For the moment I credit him for what he did tonight.
LEMON: All right. April, there's a lot of cheering in that room and praise for the majority leader, McConnell and others. I mean, it seems like the President wants the Kavanaugh controversy to stay political. And the reason why, tell me if I'm wrong, the Republicans, he wants all the energy possible going into the midterms, because they're only 29 days away. Am I wrong?
RYAN: Yes, this is all about -- this is all about trying to solidify his base, trying to make sure that they keep the senate. There is a concern that they're going to lose the house. The President himself has told and talked to some of his inner circle about that, but now they're feeling that they're walking in strength. They're not weak. They won this. This is a win. This is a win for this brand, the Trump brand and for the Republican brand now. Regardless of who it hurts. By any means necessary. This is a win. They're trying to show strength, but the question is are they going to try to heal and help two women before you go into -- or those who have been sexually assaulted, because there's a big wound out here and people are very concerned about this --
LEMON: That doesn't work for -- that doesn't work for this President. It doesn't work for the core. They want him to stand up to those Democrats and they want him to do exactly what he is doing now because they want to stay in power and --
RYAN: But Don, I want to reiterate --
LEMON: You keep asking, April, are they going to heal. It's not going to happen. I'm sorry.
RYAN: But Don, let me say this. The day of -- and we cannot forget this. The day that Dr. Ford gave her testimony the President of the United States went against what we knew --
[23:10:07] LEMON: It was written. Another written moment.
RYAN: Kellyanne Conway came out right after that saying that she was sexually assaulted --
LEMON: Another written moment. When he is off the prompter, when he is off the prompter, what he really believes comes out. I'm just telling the truth here.
QUINN: And the wounds of the victims don't heal. LEMON: It doesn't matter to him. Gregg, listen, we saw -- and he
said why --
RYAN: It matters at the polls come November.
LEMON: He said it didn't matter, and he told you as much. He said because that he has been unjustly accused, he feels, and all of these women who have these accusations against him, they're all lying according to him. So men are under -- men are under attack and he feels terrible for men right now. It's a bad moment. He told you how he feels. That is it. So Gregg, we saw justice at the swearing in tonight. I'm just being cantankerous, April. I don't mean any disrespect.
RYAN: I understand. I understand. I'm with you.
LEMON: What sort of reception will Kavanaugh get from the other justices and law clerks? Because Jack and I talked about the reception of the president tonight, how they felt about that. What about Kavanaugh?
NUNZIATA: I think a lot of the other justices really care about the respect that the court has from the people, and they're going to want to welcome him. They're going to want to turn down the temperature. And you know, people forget, political folks especially, forget that most of the court's work is not divided on right and left lines. Most of it is not 5-4. So I think they're going to try to turn down the temperature and try to rebuild the reputation of the court.
LEMON: Thank you all. Fascinating conversation. I appreciate it. April, don't be mad at me. I'm just telling you. That is how it is.
RYAN: I love you. I love you.
LEMON: All right. I love you too. We'll save that for later. I love you, man. Jack and Gregg.
QUINN: Thank you.
LEMON: Americans have rarely been as angry as angry as they are right now with both political parties over Kavanaugh. The Kavanaugh confirmation. Next we're going to talk to two people who are finding fault with their own parties tonight.
[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The Kavanaugh confirmation has split this country in a way we haven't seen in a very long time, and it comes with the midterm's just weeks away. The house speaker, Paul Ryan, says the vote has activated and animated Republicans. While Democrats are hoping anger over Kavanaugh will mobilize voters, particularly women. For them they're hoping.
Well, let's discuss now. Tom Nichols is here, who is quitting the Republican Party over all of this. He is the author of "The Death of Expertise: the Campaign against Established Knowledge and Why It Matters." Our Kenneth Baer is also here. He is a former Obama administration official who warned his Party about its focus on Kavanaugh.
Good evening to both of you. Listen, I'm so happy to have both of you gentlemen on. We're talking about how the polls show that Democrats nor Republicans fared well coming out of this Kavanaugh -- the Kavanaugh hearings. Tom, I've got to ask you, though, because you have been a critic of the GOP under Trump for some time now. You're a Republican. You're leaving the Party, right? What's the last straw?
TOM NICHOLS, PROFESSOR, NAVAL WAR COLLEGE AND HARVARD EXTENSION: For me it was just a very small thing. It was Susan Collins's speech about Kavanaugh. There really wasn't anything that revolutionary in the Collins speech except that it was very -- it was almost like a sanctimonious lecture about listen, everybody needs to get on board and this is the guy and that is the way it went. It felt like -- it felt cynical and hollow and empty. And it was -- that itself wouldn't have done it, but that on top of, you know, two, three years of this kind of behavior by the institutional Republican Party finally convinced me there's no future here. And I think that is really the point, is that I just didn't think -- there's no up from here. There's no recovery capable down the line.
LEMON: Yes. Let's just stand back for a moment, because I want to ask Tom, because I had Max Boot on last week and we talked about -- he feels very similarly as you do. And he said all of these things that he sort of ignored or said wasn't true over the last few years about Republicans, about dog whistles for racism and, you know, sexism and all of that. And now he -- he just couldn't help, but admit that yes, it's a problem and maybe he was too close to it, but now with Donald Trump it sort of just clarifies everything for you.
NICHOLS: I think people like Max and I wanted to believe that everybody else was in the Republican Party for the same reasons we were, that we wanted to believe that -- because Max and I came up in the '80s and the '90s, we felt that we were part of the Party of ideas and that everyone was as interested in those ideas as we were, and we didn't -- I think we just didn't want to look too closely at some of the other people in the tent. We sort of wanted to ascribe to them that they were here for roughly the same reasons we were.
And I think with the President's election we just couldn't pretend that was true anymore. It's just not possible for us to keep looking away. And Max went first. And I hung in there a little longer, but I think after the Kavanaugh hearing I reached the same conclusion he did and I had to go.
LEMON: Ken, you're listening intently. You don't feel similarly about your Party, do you? Or maybe there are some things --
KENNETH BAER, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Not at all. I'm a loyal Democrat. I want nothing more, to see a huge Democratic victory in 30 days. That is the only thing that is going to stop Donald Trump and the Republican Party enabling him from ruining this country -- LEMON: OK. That said. Because you said recently if the dominant
issue in an election is something cultural, you said Democrats lose. What do you think is behind that? And how does --
BAER: It's true.
LEMON: How Kavanaugh might factor into that.
[23:20:00] BAER: yes, well, it is interesting you know, you look at the sweep of post-war American political history, these are two dominant majorities. One majority is a cultural national one and one is on economics and social welfare. And if the dominant issue going into a nationalized election is economics and social welfare by and large Democrats will win.
The other one Republicans win. 2016 was an example of that. The issues going into the final week were really about kind of cultural issues. And that was by design. The Trump campaign knew if they did that they could energize some base. Right now the Kavanaugh stuff what it has done, it has energized Democrats. And those Democrats are really raring to go to vote. What Trump is betting on is he could cynically keep pressing on those issues to awake his base and awake his Trump voters, not the Republican --
LEMON: Is he being successful at it?
BAER: We don't know yet, but he is trying. We saw what he did tonight. We saw what he did around the issue of police today. And that is what he wants to do, is hit this cultural touchstone which could bring out the voters for him that really weren't regular voters and weren't seen that often. And what we need to do is do what Democrats are still doing on a local and state level. Tonight there were three important debates in three key states. In Indiana and Ohio and Wisconsin. And for statewide office. And in all three of those debates the Democratic nominee didn't hit the Republican on Kavanaugh. They hit him on health care. And those are the types of bread and butter issues we should make this election about. Make it about Trump, about corruption, about unequal tax cuts, about the deficit, about health care, about those issues that really are going to move our entire coalition so we can sweep on November 6th.
LEMON: So, what do you think of that? Do you think, though, Tom, that he has innovated or activated, as Paul Ryan said, Republicans? I mean, I think even Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell have said similar -- if I'm wrong about them, I'm sorry. At least one of them have. That it's energized the Republican Party. And people possibly to go vote come November.
NICHOLS: It's possible. And I think the way the Democrats handled the charges against Kavanaugh was so clumsy and so sensationalistic. And then of course you know, the cannonballing of Michael Avenatti into the whole mix, it was really -- it was just a mess.
LEMON: OK. Hold on, Tom. Hold on, hold on. Let me ask you -- I'm going to let you finish. Ken, I want you to respond to that. Because those are legitimate concerns that he is talking about there. You said that you love nothing more than being a Democrat and you want to --
BAER: Yes.
LEMON: But are those issues legitimate?
BAER: Listen, I just watched that hearing unfold like everyone at home. And what I saw was that the Republican majority was not letting kind of the process play itself out and that the FBI investigation wasn't thorough. We didn't hear from all the witnesses.
LEMON: So you're happy with the way your party handled it?
BAER: The whole thing I'm not happy about. I'm not happy about the guy's on the court. I'm not happy how the whole thing went down. I really wish we could have had a more sober nomination process.
LEMON: Ok. Tom, I'm sorry I interrupted. Go on, please.
NICHOLS: I think what it laid bare is that Republicans, even the ones who claim to be really appalled by Trump, have really decided that -- that they don't have enough faith in the power of their ideas to see them advance through the article one branch, through the legislature, that Republicans in a kind of strange way have exchanged places with where the Democrats were 40 years ago saying look, the only way we're going to get our ideas through is to appoint Judges.
Republicans used to rail about unelected judges. Now Republicans are all -- and they'll sacrifice everything for the sake of getting the judges they think that will carry forward their ideological program. That is one of the reasons I left. This was not -- the Party was not an insecure Party that felt it had to pursue its agenda through the judiciary. They felt that they could win elections, win the presidency, win the Congress and push those ideas. That is just not who they are.
BAER: (Inaudible).
NICHOLS: Absolutely. And I said at the time, just for the record. I don't reflect any views other than my own. Merrick Garland deserved a hearing. Even if they wanted to vote him down they should have observed the constitutional norm of giving him a hearing because the President is President until the last day of this term.
LEMON: Look at that on this show, CNN TONIGHT, there's bipartisanship between Ken Baer and Tom Nichols.
BAER: You're a peacemaker.
LEMON: I am a peacemaker. Kumbaya. Thank you both, I appreciate it.
BAER: Have a good night.
LEMON: You, too.
"SNL" going inside the imagined Republican locker room Kegger to celebrate Kavanaugh's Supreme Court confirmation, but was the show a little too spot on?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mitch McConnell here. Mitch, how are you feeling?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was awesome. Whoa!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:25:00] LEMON: And they spoofed me too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good evening. I'm Don Lemon. We've all just witnessed history as Judge Brett Kavanaugh was confirmed by the Senate to become a justice of the Supreme Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So I had no idea I was on "SNL." I was out to dinner and somebody told me. And so there you go. I was on "SNL." Actually it was Kenan Thompson who played me. And in case you missed it, the rest of the open skewered Senate Republicans gloating over -- they openly skewered them. Gloating over Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation to the Supreme Court with Heidi Gardner playing our very own Dana Bash and Beck Bennett as Mitch McConnell. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mitch McConnell here. Mitch, how are you feeling?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was awesome. Whoa!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel like this is a win you can be proud of?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, hell yes, Dana. Republicans read the mood of the country and we could tell that people really wanted Kavanaugh. Everyone's pumped, from white men over 60 to white men over 70.
[23:30:00] We did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Take a look at Kate McKinnon's Lindsey Graham.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE MCKINNON, ACTRESS: Lindsey Graham, do you have a moment?
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How amazing is this, huh? We made a lot of women real worried today, but I'm not getting pregnant, so I don't care.
MCKINNON: And you don't think that Brett Kavanaugh did anything wrong?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, i think it's important to believe women, until it's time to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: "SNL" having some fun with the Kavanaugh confirmation, but it is really no laughing matter that both President Trump and the Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, this weekend used the word "mob" when referring to those opposed to Kavanaugh's nomination. And the president today ramping up his attacks on Democrats and Christine Blasey Ford, using incendiary language, although not using her name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: A man that was caught up in a hoax that was set up by the Democrats, using the Democrats' lawyers, and now they want to impeach him.
False charges. False accusations. Horrible statements that were totally untrue, that he knew nothing about. Frankly terms that he probably never heard in his life. He was this, he was that. He never even heard of these terms. It was a disgraceful situation brought about by people that are evil. And he toughed it out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He wrote the terms and then explained in his words what they meant. Anyway, tonight, Governor John Kasich of Ohio, who ran for the GOP nomination against the president, said this to Anderson Cooper about the explosive words being used.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: Look, the time has come to move beyond this. And name calling or, you know, kind of celebrating in the locker room, you know, that's not the way to move forward. In fact, when you win, that's when you should really go out of your way to figure out how to hand something to those who've lost and not try to put it in their face. You just enrage them and constantly divide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Other conservatives also want Republicans to tone it down. Writing an opinion piece in "The New York Times" under the headline "Conservatives are Wrong to Gloat About Kavanaugh," David Marcus, a correspondent for "The Federalist," says that celebrations for Kavanaugh's confirmation should be quiet and dignified.
He writes, "unfortunately, they haven't been." Senator John Cornyn tweeting about drinking bubbly for Brett, hashtag bubbly for Brett, while Senator Lindsey Graham told the world he wasn't tired of winning. Yes, the GOP got a big win. Huge politically. But at what cost? We all have to wait and see.
Possible clue in our new CNN poll today. When asked if the Senate should vote to confirm Kavanaugh, 55 percent of women said no. The midterm elections are a month away. Millions of American women expected to let their feelings be known about Kavanaugh's confirmation at the ballot box.
So let's dig into this, all of this more with Van Jones, Alice Stewart, and Max Boot right after the break.
[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: CNN has some new polling out tonight. Americans feel -- how they feel about Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation battle and his elevation to the Supreme Court. Let's bring in now Van Jones, Alice Stewart, and Max Boot.
Max is the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." I just spoke about him in my last conversation here on the air. He was listening and he said I got it right.
So good evening to all of you. But Alice, I'm going to start with you. What do you think of the president's victory lap at the White House tonight regarding Justice Kavanaugh, with him there by his side?
ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: For him, it is a tremendous victory, Don. He campaigned on this specific issue on nominating and seeing Scalia-like justices put on to the Supreme Court. I am one of the people -- this was my singular issue, the one issue why I could cast the ballot for Donald Trump given everything else that happened.
This is the number one issue. And the 26 percent of people that voted for him say this was the key issue. So it is a tremendous victory for him. And I think it's one that I would like to see one or two more before the end of his term. But he is right to take a victory lap because -- for many reasons.
It energizes his base. It is something -- it is another campaign promise that is a promise kept, that he can use to energize the base. And this is something as we move -- get closer to the midterm elections, it is a good way to remind people of another success that he has had and keep the enthusiasm going.
And it's good for a lot of the Republicans that campaigned as well for Congress and many senators over the years have said we need to have more conservative-leaning justices on the Supreme Court and this is good for them, too.
LEMON: But more specific, Max, to the question --
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know who it's not good for?
LEMON: Hold on, Van. I just want this just quickly. If he wants to take a victory lap, was it the appropriate place? That's all I'm asking.
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: No, I don't think so. And I think what he is doing is basically politicizing the Supreme Court. I think that's something that Brett Kavanaugh already did in the course of his confirmation hearings, where he essentially became kind of a mini-Trump, ranting about conspiracy theories, how this was all payback for the Clintons, engaging in, I think, very inappropriate rhetoric for a Supreme Court justice. And now you're seeing more of the same.
[23:39:58] I mean, for example, Sarah Sanders tweeted out "now we have a 5-4 Supreme Court under President Trump," as if President Trump is the boss of the Supreme Court and as if the Republican appointees are supposed to be Republican partisans.
And you know, Trump has added to that by calling the accusations against Kavanaugh a hoax, saying that he's innocent. None of that is true. And he is just, I think, adding fuel to the partisan fury and fire that we see in America.
LEMON: Van, I'm sorry, I cut you off. You said you know what else it does is what? Energize women?
JONES: I agree with Alice that it's good for the president's political strategy, it's good for the Republican base, but it's not good for the country. The problem that you have now is that you have all three pillars of our government with a cloud over them from the point of view of tens of millions of Americans.
You have people who are very concerned about the way President Trump was elected. That puts a cloud over the presidency. You have a concern about with Congress, gerrymandering, the voting rights act not being enforced anymore. That puts a cloud over Congress.
And now we have this with Kavanaugh and there's a concern because Merrick Garland never got a hearing and then this one was pushed through. There's now a cloud over the Supreme Court. You now have termites, termites eating into all three pillars of our government. So sure, it's a great political strategy, I suppose, if that's all you care about.
But at some point the problem is you've got to care about more than your own base and your own political strategy. At some point you've got to care about the country. And when you do this much damage to our institutions and to people's confidence in them, there can be a very, very high price to pay later on.
LEMON: Well, that's -- that's kind of the -- you just boiled down in a nutshell almost every single cable news, diner, dinner, Thanksgiving, holiday conversation. At what cost? Oh, yeah, well, the economy is great. At what cost? Well, I got a Supreme Court nominee. At what cost? So you just boiled that down. At what cost?
When you said three pillars of our government, termites are eating them and the institutions are being dragged down. At what cost, Alice? STEWART: Well, look, the economy is doing great. And look, the unemployment rate is at a record low number. And we're making some progress with regard to North Korea. So, there are several areas where he is making promises and moving the ball down the field. And that is -- all those figures and all of those statistics are good for the entire country.
And I'm sure when other presidents nominated Supreme Court justices such as Sotomayor, Kagan, Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, those on the right were saying hold on, let's take another look at this. So, whenever you have a president and the party in power nominating Supreme Court justices that reflect more of their view, of course the other side is going to take issue with this.
I have been talking about the Supreme Court for years and the significance of this with regard to presidential politics from 2008, 2012, and 2016. We're not -- we didn't hear as much of that from those on the right. The democrats and liberals haven't made that a key issue when it comes to presidential politics. I think that will change moving forward.
BOOT: You know, I think, Don, the problem here is that Donald Trump really debases every institution that he comes into contact with. He drags it down to his own low standards. And that is what he is doing now with the Supreme Court.
And as somebody who is a small-C conservative, I've been Republican and an ideological conservative my whole life, and I moved away recently since the rise of Donald Trump, I moved away from the Republican Party and the mainstream conservative movement.
Obviously, they have their ideological agenda, and Alice speaks very clearly about that, trying to put right-wing justices on the Supreme Court. But as a small-C conservative, I am concerned about conserving our institutions, protecting the system of government set up by our founding fathers.
And as Van Jones I think rightly pointed out, all of our major governmental institutions are in crisis now. The worst crisis is in the executive branch led by Donald Trump. But the fire is spreading down the street to the Supreme Court because you have somebody in Brett Kavanaugh who is taking the court under a cloud of suspicion. He has not been exonerated.
There was not a real investigation of the sexual assault case. He was not found innocent. And moreover in the process of defending himself, he acted in a very partisan fashion, which makes you doubt whether liberal plaintiffs are going to get a fair hearing from a justice who said what goes around comes around.
So, I think, you know, for the members of the Supreme Court and anybody who cares about the Supreme Court, they should be very worried about what this does for the standing of the Supreme Court, which may be fine with the 40 percent of Americans who support Donald Trump, but the standing of the Supreme Court is going to be severely hurt with the 60 percent of Americans who are not Trump supporters. [23:45:03] LEMON: OK, Van, I know you want to weigh in -- hold on, I got to get to the break. Everybody, hold their fire. Also we're going to talk about -- Van, I know you know about this because you may be at this meeting. I'm not sure. But Kanye meeting at the White House. He's going to be at the White House on Thursday. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So I'm back now with Van, Alice, and Max. OK, Van, Kanye West is expected to meet with President Trump -- I can't believe I'm talking about this -- and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, on Thursday at the White House. That's according to a source.
[23:49:58] Kanye wants to discuss the availability of job opportunities for former convicts.
JONES: I think --
LEMON: Go on.
JONES: First of all, I think it's a good thing. I think anybody who wants to sit down and talk with President Trump, obviously, you know, Kanye is from Chicago, he has a background in urban America, anybody who wants to sit down and talk with Donald Trump about serious issues, I think should have a shot.
I don't think we should assume that he is not going to be able to communicate. I know for a fact that he is consulting broadly (ph). He is talking to conservatives like Candace Owens. He is talking to liberals. He is taking it seriously as best I can tell.
And I hope something good comes out of it. If it turns out to be a train crash or disaster, I think people will have (INAUDIBLE) about it. On the front end, I think we should hope for the best.
LEMON: Van, I'm with you on that. I just -- he doesn't know what he's talking about. That's the problem. He doesn't know what he's talking about. He should be able to sit down, and fine, if you want to sit down with the president of the United States, that's great, but know what you're talking about. Do your homework. Do some research.
Listen, I don't really know much about Candace Owens except she's a flame-thrower. You should be talking to people like Max. You should be talking to people like Tom Nichols. You should be talking to people like Alice Stewart. You should be talking to people like Ana Navarro. You should be talking to people who actually have some knowledge of conservatism and the Republican Party.
JONES: Listen, he's talking to some knowledgeable people on both sides. Let me just say this. This is going to surprise a lot of people. But when President Obama was there, there were a lot of celebrities who went. It was almost like Hollywood east coast of the White House and nobody complained. It was considered normal. We have a very different relationship -- LEMON: But people never said that the 13th Amendment should be abolished. Do you understand what I'm saying? Don't do that. He was talking about the president, Van. Van, don't do that. Come on, man. Sit here and be honest. Know what you're talking about. He doesn't know. He's a very powerful person with a high profile who is spouting off things that don't make sense.
He has a lot of followers who start to believe it, and it's not true. And it doesn't make sense. If you're going to sit down with the president of the United States, whether you're a Hollywood liberal or a Hollywood conservative or a mid-west conservative, whatever it is, you should know what you're talking about especially when you have a platform as powerful as a Kanye West. He doesn't know what he's talking about, Van.
JONES: Listen, you and I agree that all the people with big platforms should use them responsibly.
LEMON: OK.
JONES: And we also agree that the things that Kanye has said have been wrong, have been offensive, they haven't made a lot of sense. However, I think on that 13th Amendment thing, he was trying to make a point about the prisoners. And I know he's getting better schools, he's getting better advice, and that's a positive thing. You know, I'm always trying to encourage the positive, Don.
LEMON: Could you tell him to do some -- how to talk about ish 101 before he actually goes out and talks about ish. Not only for the country and for the people who believe in him but also for himself. Like sit down, open a book and read about it, and then go and do your thing.
I'm not saying he shouldn't do it. No one's trying to stop him from talking But I'm just saying, go sit down, read, get good counsel, then come back full fire. That's all I'm saying. Go ahead, Alice.
STEWART: I think this is more of a conversation between two people that clearly share some common ground on certain things. And Jared Kushner -- Van knows this very well -- Jared has done a lot of work with regard to the justice system and how it impacts minorities in this country. So I think a conversation on that issue as well as seeking employment opportunities --
LEMON: Alice, that's all good. Kanye ain't the one. That's all I'm saying. It's all good. Van, you fight for it and guess what, Van, you go sit down at the White House, you talk to them, I'm going to say amen, Van, go. You know why?
Because you know what the hell you're talking about, because you study the issue, because people actually listen to you, because are not using you, right, to garner attention. They're not using you as a campaign ad. They're not going to try to exploit you for that. And if they do, you know how to dodge and weave and handle it. You can come back here on CNN and any of the platform and you can defend yourself. Kanye cannot do that. Listen, I had to hate for Kanye, that's not it. I'm just telling you the truth. You guys are sitting here defending someone who probably has issues that he needs to deal with more than talking about things in politics that he knows nothing about and it's obvious he knows nothing.
[23:55:01] BOOT: I think Don makes a good point. My concern would be, you know, if Donald Trump is somebody who has made a lot of racist statements including insulting Don among other African-Americans, he has taken actions that really target minority communities.
And so I don't want him to get an easy pass by saying, hey, I've got a black friend here, Kanye West, so I can't be a racist. We know the reality is a lot more complex than that.
LEMON: Hold on, Max. Van, quickly, let me ask you this. What do think of stop and frisk?
JONES: What I think of stop and frisk?
LEMON: Yes.
JONES: I think it's a violation of the constitution.
LEMON: Well, the president tonight, you what he said, stop and frisk was a good policy, maybe Chicago should put that in. Kanye is going there. He is going to talk to a man who thinks that stop and frisk is a good idea. That's all I'm saying. If you're going to go there, be a Van Jones and be able to say the words that you just said. I don't think Kanye is capable of that. I'm sorry.
JONES: All I'm saying is let's give him a chance. Let's just see what he does before we say it's bad.
LEMON: He's already done it. How many chances? It's the same thing what you used to say about Donald Trump. You would say, how many chances are we going to give this man? How many chances are we going to give Kanye? We know what Kanye is. We already know.
JONES: I am willing to wait until Thursday before I say it's good or bad.
LEMON: All right. Well, you're a better person than I am.
STEWART: Van, you should go and come back and tell us about it on Thursday.
LEMON: Yes, do that. Bye, thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.
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