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Don Lemon Tonight
Trump Exploits Kanye West; Violence is the New Game in Politics; POTUS Claim Lincoln Developed A Phobia Over General Lee Says Despite Grant's Drinking He Knocked The Hell Out Of Everyone; Turkish Reports Says Khashoggi May Have Recorded His Own Death. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 12, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Don, it's dumb. Don't be dumb. It's stupid.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I love that. You're trying to do the puppy dog puss. You can't pull it off. You need the bangs. You don't have the bangs.
LEMON: I don't even pay attention to it. It's -- it's just really funny. Not to make fun of anyone, but I just don't -- it's just so absurd.
CUOMO: I'm making fun of him but you have to because if you take it seriously, it's a lot more scary.
LEMON: I don't think it's scary.
CUOMO: Hopefully it's just done for effect.
LEMON: Yes, but it's dangerous even with that because it's -- you know, because people actually believe it. Some people actually believe it. So, it's -- it's just dangerous, and I don't know. I sleep well at night. I'm not sure about those guys, but--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I don't. I have three herniated discs in my neck. I here your voice echoing around in my brain like a ghost.
LEMON: You should turn your television off.
CUOMO: Never. I think I have a Nielsen box.
LEMON: It is a weird to say. But this is a complete non sequitur because that I'll go home and then sometimes I go home and Anderson is on and then you. I don't have the chance to see you guys all the time. And I'll leave the TV on and fall asleep. Do you ever wake up to like your own voice and face? It's the scariest thing.
CUOMO: It's all I have playing. I have it playing all over the house.
LEMON: I immediately turn it off. Hey, Chris.
CUOMO: Yes, sir.
LEMON: You have a fantastic weekend. You did me some great favors this week. You're a great friend and you're a good man. So I'll see you next week.
CUOMO: See you soon. I'll be watching you tonight.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
Look, I know I'm taking a risk saying this, but we just might be at peak crazy right now. I know, I know, I know, but I want you to hear me out.
I want you to listen to President Trump. This is him at his Ohio rally just a little while ago, riffing on Neil Armstrong and managing to work in a slam at Colin Kaepernick at the same time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He planted that flag, that American flag, right on the face of the moon. There was no kneeling. There was no nothing. There was no games. There was no games. Boom! Boom, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And then of course, there's Kanye. Everybody's talking about Kanye tonight. Also at the president's rally, Congressman Steve Chabot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEVE CHABOT, (R) OHIO: And I never knew I'd say this, but God bless Kanye West!
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I wonder who told him how to say the name right. And then President Trump got in another reference to his BFF.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And it's true. Kanye West, what he did was pretty amazing yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Amazing, that is one word for it. That's one word for it. Kanye's wife is talking about it too.
A source close to the Kardashians telling CNN that Kim Kardashian West is not embarrassed by Kanye's comments. A source also says that Kanye's mind moves at lightning speed and suggested the White House meeting wasn't the best forum to represent Kanye's genius.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANYE WEST, RAPPER: There's a lot of things affecting our mental health that makes us do crazy things, that puts us back into that trapdoor called the 13th Amendment. I did say abolish with the hat on because why would you keep something around that's a trapdoor?
If you're building a floor, the Constitution is the base of our industry, right, of our country, of our company. Would you build a trapdoor that if you mess up and you accidentally something happens, you fall, and you end up next to the Unabomber?
You end up, you got to remove all of that trapdoor out of the relationship. The four gentlemen that wrote the 13th Amendment -- and I think the way the universe works, it's perfect. We don't have 13 floors, do we?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'm going to say what I said yesterday, right, that some people left out. If you love this man, he shouldn't be in front of TV cameras. Not that he shouldn't support Trump. Not that he doesn't have the right to say what he wants to say, right? Help him. Help him. Don't double down on it.
If I ever got close to doing that even before I came on television -- first of all, nobody would let me go on television in this studio, anyone that I know. They'd have my back. They'd say, Don, I don't think you're right yet.
I remember when my sister passed, nobody would let me go on television until they felt that I was OK. So if you care about him, really do, and not just the fame, not just the celebrity, not just whatever, then maybe some people are just too close to the forest. Can't see the forest for the trees.
[22:05:05] So, I'm trying to be, say something nice about Kanye, and I'm trying to actually tell the people who know him and who are close to him to help him.
He's talking about the 13th amendment and trapdoors and hydrogen planes, and that's fine. But is it the appropriate venue? Is that what you want your loved one -- is that what you want your loved one's legacy to be, is to be the person who went into the Oval Office and said a whole lot of things that didn't make sense and then said, M.F. in the Oval Office? Is that what you -- OK.
So the president is exploiting Kanye. This is as much his fault, maybe more, than Kanye's because he is the president of the United States. He gave him the platform. He invited the cameras in, and then he let it roll out live for everybody to see.
He is taking advantage of a man who needs help, and I'm not being disparaging about Kanye. There are many people in this country who have mental health issues. He admittedly says that he does, and so we should take the stigma off and be honest about it and talk about it, OK?
But this is what our politics have become. It's ugly, and it's getting worse. Tough talk about angry mobs. President Trump unloading on Democrats again tonight in Ohio, using the new Republican talking point to slam anybody who opposed the nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: An angry Democrat mob was on a mission to resist, obstruct, delay, demolish, and destroy him. These are bad people. We can't let this happen to our country. Republicans believe in the rule of law, not the rule of the mob. That's what it is. It's a mob.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That's great in front of a crowd of people who agree with you and they're going to applaud everything you say. But I want everyone to remember the real mob here, and that is the white supremacists, the mob of white supremacists who killed a woman in Charlottesville, the only mob I know to have killed someone is in Charlottesville. And this is what the president called that mob. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is what our politics has become. We fight about fighting. So listen to Eric Holder just a few days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HOLDER, FORMER UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Michelle says that, you know, when they go low, we go high. No. No. When they go low, we kick them.
(APPLAUSE)
HOLDER: That's what this new Democratic Party is about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Congressman Steve Scalise, remember him? Unfortunately he was shot by a gunman at a GOP baseball team practice last year. Writing in a Fox News op-ed, "When Democratic leaders like Eric Holder call for violence, that is a direct threat to our democracy."
So Holder fighting back, tweeting -- he's fighting back. He tweeted this. He said "Stop the fake outrage, I'm obviously not advocating violence." But the president was only too happy to blast the former attorney general.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He better be careful what he's wishing for. That I can tell you. He better be careful what he's wishing for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you mean?
TRUMP: That's a disgusting statement for him to make. For him to make a statement like that is a very dangerous statement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But you know what? Donald Trump wasn't always so worried about dangerous statements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I love the old days. You know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? They'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks.
The guards are very gentle with him. He's walking out with big high fives, smiling, laughing. I'd like to punch him in the face, I tell you.
If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell -- I promise you I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.
Get him out. Try not to hurt him. If you do, I'll defend you in court. Don't worry about it.
Part of the problem and part of the reason it takes so long is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore. There are no consequences to protesting anymore. There used to be consequences.
I would have been out there fighting, folks. I don't know if I would have done well, but I would have been boom, boom, boom. Beat the--
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is what our politics has become. I want you to listen to this shocking statement. It's from Republican candidate Scott Wagner, threatening Pennsylvania Governor Tom Wolf.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:09] SCOTT WAGNER, GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: You better put a catcher's mask on your face because I'm going to stomp all over your face with golf spikes because I'm going to win this for the State of Pennsylvania, and we're throwing you out of office.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: I almost hesitated to play that, to give that guy the attention he so obviously craves. But that seems to be the world that we're living in right now. And there's more.
A Minnesota legislator grabbing the mic away from his female Democratic rival. The look on her face right there says it all. There it is again. And even Stephen Miller's third grade teacher claiming that as a child, he had weird personal habits like eating glue.
Come on. There are plenty of reasons to criticize Stephen Miller for his policies, like the forced family separations at the border, the policy that put children in cages. We don't need to go back to what he did or didn't do in the third grade. But this is where we are right now.
Our politics are ugly and getting uglier. We just suffered through a bruising battle that put Justice Brett Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court, and now we're less than a month away from what may be the most important midterm elections in our lifetimes.
Can we get back on the rails before it is too late? So, lots to talk about tonight. Mark McKinnon is here, Catherine Rampell. We're going to dig into it, next.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So it's another dizzying week in Donald Trump's America. Remember newly minted Justice Brett Kavanaugh only took his seat on the high court on Tuesday. That was overshadowed by Kanye West's off the rails appearance at the White House, dropping an f-bomb in the Oval Office live on national television.
Let's discuss with Mark McKinnon, who was an adviser to George W. Bush and John McCain and is now executive producer of The Circus, airing Sunday nights on Showtime. Also Catherine Rampell, an opinion columnist for the Washington Post. Every day that goes by, it shows you just how big a man John McCain was, right?
MARK MCKINNON, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, THE CIRCUS: Well, this is my, what would John McCain do bracelet in.
LEMON: Right.
MCKINNON: I think about him often, especially in times like this.
LEMON: In times like this. So another unusual week. Sarah Sanders tweeting out yesterday -- this is a photo of her and Kanye West. "Never a dull moment in at real Donald Trump's White House." What do you think, are we at peak like, madness?
MCKINNON: Well, I mean part of what the White House has been wanting to do and what Donald Trump has been wanting to do is to expand the reality television of the White House, right? That's why they brought Bill Shine in from Fox News.
And they want to do more stuff outside. They want to bring more celebrities in, just rock and roll, and we have these freewheeling press conferences. It's becoming more like what Donald Trump has wanted it to be all along. I think it's ultimately becoming the virtual reality show out of the White House.
LEMON: Yes. So what do you think, though, when you see all this?
MCKINNON: Well, I think it's the ultimate extension of what we should have expected from Donald Trump.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it's actually quite similar to what it's been like -- or what it was like during the 2016 campaign, right? I mean back then it was also off the rails. It was also all sorts of spectacle. Trump--
LEMON: But he's in the White House.
RAMPELL: I know. Well, I was going to say that back then, it felt ridiculous. It was a farce. Now it's a tragedy, right? I mean it was funny back then. We were all ridiculing all the crazy things that Trump was saying. Now he has power.
LEMON: But some of it, though, was he's doing this and maybe it's working. It will get him in the Oval Office. It certainly made him the Republican nominee, and so -- you remember that he's going to moderate. He's going to moderate.
MCKINNON: Everybody expected this.
RAMPELL: He's going to pivot.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He's going to pivot.
RAMPELL: He's going to pivot.
MCKINNON: He's going to normalize. I mean, becoming president, there are certain things will descend on you and gravity sets in, and it's been just the opposite. He has been working since day one to get more back to where he wants to be, and I think he's finally landed in that place he wanted to be all along.
RAMPELL: Yes.
MCKINNON: Having gotten rid of the establishment times around him and the problems.
LEMON: It's interesting, I mean, he talks about, you know, the Hollywood elites and celebrities, but then he -- celebrity.
RAMPELL: Yes. But then he couldn't find anybody to perform his inauguration. I'm sure he took that very personally. He's been hunting for some sort of celebrity.
MCKINNON: Well that's why he loves Kanye, and that's why loves--
(CROSSTALK)
RAMPELL: Yes, I know. Kanye is a step up from Chachi, right?
MCKINNON: I remember that. I used to have to get entertainment for the Republican conventions. It was like, you know, Kid Rock and the Oak Ridge Boys. That was about it.
LEMON: Yes. Ted Nugent maybe.
MCKINNON: Ted Nugent. Lee Greenwood.
LEMON: Yes. I'm proud to be an American. So listen, I want to play more from, this is President Trump tonight. He talks about how amazing Kanye was. He also said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Remember my statement, what do you have to lose? Guess what? They all believe it now. What do you have to lose? They're doing it. We are doing great as a country. But I'm so proud. I am so proud of the kind of numbers you're hearing.
My administration is fighting every day to deliver safety, opportunity, and justice for everybody, for everybody. We're asking as an example, all African-American voters to honor us with their support this November. Get away from the Democrats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So his comments there, the cozying up to Kanye as if he's trying to talk to black voters, Catherine.
RAMPELL: Because Kanye is totally representative of your average middle class--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Black votes.
RAMPELL: Black voters, yes.
LEMON: This is what I think what I know. He's trying to convince white voters he's not racist. That's what he's doing.
RAMPELL: Absolutely.
LEMON: That hug was everything that he wanted.
RAMPELL: Absolutely. He's done this with Kanye. He's done this citing the unemployment numbers which I'm sure I said before on the show. They're a continuation of a trend that began under Obama, but beyond that, you know, he's done this when he said he loved the Mexicans as evidenced by eating from a taco bowl and saying -- you know, he pointed to like my African-American in a crowd.
Of course he wants to pull out colorful photo ops basically whether it's with a taco bowl or an African-American celebrity as evidence that he's not racist in spite of the completely bigoted things that he says and the policies that he pursues.
[22:20:02] MCKINNON: Let me say something more about the kind of television he's doing now. Like he's doing 60 Minutes tomorrow, and he's been doing more of his own sort of theater out of the White House, less press briefings.
And the reason why is he feels like -- and there is a reality that he's got a lot more good news to tell. I mean, he's like less about the Mueller investigation. He's got his two-page sheet of things that he's accomplished now, and he wants to talk about it.
So, I mean in terms of where he is psychologically in his presidency, I think he's in a place that I think he's in a better place than he's been in two years really. In terms of just feeling good about where he is.
LEMON: But just think about it. You know, he'll call almost - almost any news organization, even 60 Minutes, whatever he can get on, right? Not that he will do any news organization. He's got the bully pulpit. So he certainly has the promotion advantage and momentum going into the midterms, which shows you, I think, he's got the rallies. It's going to get crazier. This is not -- this is only ramping up.
RAMPELL: Yes, I think with Donald Trump, a safe bet is that it's always going to get crazier, and I don't think it's going to get any less crazy after the midterms. I think there are a lot of people who assume that once the midterms happen, things will normalize. It will be a nice respite for all of us. There will be fewer news dumps of crazy scandals and whatever else and I think it's going to be completely the opposite in fact after the midterms.
LEMON: When he said it this stuff like, when he goes back to, you know, what do you have to lose, which is kind of a thing, maybe what are you complaining about? Do you think he's saying, hey, stop complaining. I'm doing good stuff for you. Is that a translation for that?
MCKINNON: I think he genuinely just believes he's delivering for everybody, everywhere all the time. And you, like I said, right now he's on pretty role in terms of actual facts with what's happening with the economy.
LEMON: Mr. Mark McKinnon sat down with White House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy for his show The Circus. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCKINNON: You're the guy standing in front of the projected blue wave. Do you think it's going to be a wave? And if not, why not?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R) CALIFORNIA: I don't think it's a blue wave. There's a little green wave to it on money because of Bloomberg, but it's more like a tornado. It will touch down in spots. But I see the weather has changed in the last two weeks. The polling that I have seen come back, a lot of improvement.
MCKINNON: Is that directly related to Kavanaugh?
MCCARTHY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So you've got more of your show, Sunday's Showtime at 8 p.m. Sunday Showtime at 8 p.m. He said not a blue wave. It's a blue tornado. Do you think that's wishful thinking on his part. Is he right?
MCKINNON: I think there's an interesting thing happening post- Kavanaugh, which is we all want to say it's either good or bad. It's really both. And when you break it down and go around the country which we finally been able to get out of Washington and do to look at the midterms and get out in the states, the direct impact that we see happening after having been out this week is that it's helping Democrats in suburban, urban areas, and it's helping Republicans in red-state Senate races.
So those red state Senate races that were getting close suddenly widened out for Republicans and Heidi Heitkamp is in real trouble in North Dakota. Kristen Sinema is now in trouble is Arizona, McSally is doing well. We see in Tennessee, we see it with Beto O'Rourke in texas. On the other hand, look at the numbers that Beto O'Rourke just reported for the third quarter.
LEMON: The money.
MCKINNON: I thought it was -- I thought -- $38 million in one quarter.
LEMON: Geez.
MCKINNON: I thought it was a typo.
LEMON: No.
MCKINNON: That's like by a factor of, I think, $16 million more than anybody has ever raised in history in a quarter.
LEMON: Yes.
MCKINNON: So there is a lot of energy there and, you know, but like you said there's still 28 days left and a lot is going to happen between now and then. But you can see Donald Trump is going to be out there banging it as hard as he can because he's got to motivate his base. Because a lot of it is about turnout is who's angriest.
LEMON: Yes.
MCKINNON: That's what's happening.
LEMON: Yes. Final word.
RAMPELL: Well, who's angriest and who is actually able to vote. We haven't even touched on this whole voter suppression effort.
LEMON: In Georgia.
RAMPELL: Georgia and a bunch of other places as well.
LEMON: Yes. We're going to discuss that. Thank you. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. The Circus airs Sunday night on Showtime. Make sure you tune in.
At his rally just a little while ago, the president had some curious things to say about some historical figures. We're going to break down President Trump's version of a history lesson. That's next.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: At his rally tonight, President Trump praised a native son of Ohio, the 18th president of the U.S., Ulysses S. Grant. He, of course, was also commanding general of the victorious Union Army during the Civil War. So the president gave a history lesson to his supporters. Here's part of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: So Robert E. Lee was a great general, and Abraham Lincoln developed a phobia. He couldn't beat Robert E. Lee. He was going crazy. I don't know if you know this story. But Robert E. Lee was winning battle after battle after battle, and one day it was looking really bad. And Lincoln just said, you hardly knew his name. And they said, don't take him. He's got a drinking problem.
And Lincoln said, I don't care what problem he has. You guys aren't winning. And his name was Grant, General Grant.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: And he went in, and he knocked the hell out of everyone. He really did. He had a serious problem, a serious drinking problem. But, man, was he good a general. And he's finally being recognized as a great general.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Let's discuss now with Michael Higginbotham, a professor of constitutional law and author of "Ghost of Jim Crow: Ending Racism and Post Racial America." I couldn't read that introduction fast enough because I want to talk to you about this. What do you think of what he said tonight?
MICHAEL HIGGINBOTHAM, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE: Well, I don't know about the president being some sort of a psychologist or some sort of medical expert, but in terms of history, I think most people understand that President Lincoln had a great deal of weight on his shoulders. He handled it very well, and general grant, as well as General lee, were military experts.
[22:30:11] When you talk about winners, though, not only was General Grant a winner in the military arena, but he was a winner in the legislative arena as well. His contribution during reconstruction is incredible, and I hope that the President will recognize that winning in the legislative arena in terms of anti-discrimination laws that were passed under general grant's leadership. I hope he recognizes that winning as well.
LEMON: I can tell that you're an educator and intellectual, because you're choosing your words very wisely. Listen, but the way he is talking tonight reminds me of when he spoke about the confederate monuments. Do you think he has any clear understanding really of civil war history and especially post-civil war Jim Crow?
HIGGINBOTHAM: No, I do not. I don't think he has a deep understanding of much American history. I think the President, as he does with politics, just looks at what's beneficial to his particular position on that particular day. It's unfortunate. We have a long history of mischaracterization of our American history, and that is why I wrote "Ghost of Jim crow" because the truth will set us free. And Americans need to understand what our real history is. We'll be in a much better place for it.
LEMON: I want everyone to remember. Remember during black history month, this black history month celebration, President Trump said that Frederick Douglass was a man who was being recognized more and more. Then yet at his rally tonight, he was raving about black unemployment numbers and telling black people to vote for him. How can he be an advocate for people of color if he doesn't even understand the history?
HIGGINBOTHAM: He really can't be, and I don't think most Americans of all colors are not going to be persuaded this time. I think they've had enough. You know, the President can't keep mischaracterizing history. He can't keep not being concerned about facts or using, you know, mischaracterization of facts. He can't keep doing that. Time is up. People are going to go to the polls, and I think a lot of people are going to demonstrate that they understand. They're tired of hearing the mischaracterizations.
LEMON: Michael Higginbotham, I wish we had more time. But our time is up now, I am short tonight. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Have a good weekend.
HIGGINBOTHAM: Always a pleasure.
LEMON: New reports tonight that Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi may have recorded his own death on his Apple watch. With mounting evidence against Saudi Arabia, will President Trump take action? Fareed Zakaria weighs in next.
[22:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, we have breaking news tonight. Turkish media reporting that missing "Washington Post" columnist and Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi may have recorded his own death on his Apple watch. Recordings captured on the watch and sent to his phone and iCloud are said to include Khashoggi's interrogation, torture, and death inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.
Investigators found some of the recordings on the phone he had left with his fiancee. Now, it's important to know that CNN has not independently verified this report and that the Saudi government -- well, it says that any claims they ordered Khashoggi's killing are baseless. A lot to discuss tonight with Fareed Zakaria. He is here with me. I want to make sure we take our time with this. This is a very important story that we have been giving lots of attention to on this program and on the network. This recording from the Apple watch, if it exists, it's a game-changer.
FAREED ZAKARIA, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS SHOW HOST: Oh, it's an absolute game-changer if we have an actual recording of him being interrogated, presumably him being tortured, things like that. Absolute game- changer. Most importantly because the Saudi government has unequivocally denied any of this happened. In fact, their version of the story, which seems very difficult to believe, is that he walked out of the embassy.
Yet his fiancee has not seen him. There's no camera recording of him leaving though there are camera recordings of him entering. And as the Turkish President has himself said, the Turkish government has video cameras outside the Saudi embassy and of course the consulate, but not inside. Inside there must have been Saudi security cameras, and if they were there and they recorded Khashoggi leaving, they should just release those tapes.
LEMON: Right. Also in regards to the Apple watch, the Turkish paper is reporting that his attackers used his fingerprints to gain access to his Apple watch and to delete some of the files in the watch. And, again, CNN hasn't verified any of this. But, I mean, how much trust should be given I should say to Turkish reporting?
ZAKARIA: So far what appears to be happening is the Turkish government and the Saudi government have an uneasy relationship between each other. The Turkish President, at the time of the Arab spring, you remember all those sort of pro-democracy movements taking place in the Arab world. The Turkish government came out strongly in support to them. The Saudi government came out strongly opposed to them. So they are really the two opposite camps of this great ferment taking place in the Middle East. Do we move toward more open governments? Do we move more toward closed arguments? Saudi Arabia, Egypt, have been much more authoritarian, much more against any of this. So this is the backdrop where on the other hand, they do have relations with one another. They have economic relations.
[22:40:00] So, the Turks don't want to directly criticize Saudi Arabia. So what they have been doing is they have been leaking like a sieve. The Turkish government has been leaking all the news reports we have gotten, all of which seem very plausible, all of which seem to be very detailed, all of which corroborate the circumstantial evidence, him entering, not leaving. So I think we got to take this stuff seriously, because this seems to be the way the Turkish government is communicating essentially its official findings, but doing it in a way that entirely jeopardize its relationship with Saudi Arabia. LEMON: So what happens here in the U.S.? How do you think the
administration would act? What would they do if this video is released to the public or released to the U.S.?
ZAKARIA: Well, I think what has happened here is a fascinating case of a single person story symbolizing something much deeper. There was always this question about Saudi Arabia and about the new crown prince, which was on the one hand he seemed to be reforming. He seemed to be reining in the religious police. He was allowing women to drive. He was having, you know, more entertainment, all these things that people have long asked for in Saudi Arabia. People like Jamal Khashoggi, but people like Khashoggi were saying, look, it's all very well to do this reform, but at the same time, you shouldn't be jailing democracy activists. You shouldn't be jailing journalists. You shouldn't be jailing bloggers.
And that was the criticism that Khashoggi was putting forward even though he had long been an advocate of all the reforms that the crown prince was doing. He was saying, you can't do them on the one hand and on the other hand, really impose a kind of draconian regime against free speech, free expression and such. This case, it's so sad that this -- his own case so perfect illustrates the problem. Here you have Saudi Arabia trying to open up its doors to free investment, free enterprise, all the great capitalists of the world come and see how Saudi Arabia is reforming its economy. And on the eve of this big conference, what do they appear to have done? What is it alleged that they have done? They lured a journalist into Saudi Arabia, into the consulate, which is considered Saudi soil, and they hacked him to death as far as we can tell. So if, again, it's important to point out its not verified, but if it's true, it is a gruesome reminder of this duality of Saudi reform.
LEMON: I have two more questions for you. At least two more questions, I should say. So there's this big conference, right? It's an investment conference. CNN, other news organizations, companies have pulled out of this, but the treasure secretary is still going to go. What kind of signal does that send, at least now, because the conference is in like a week or so, or is it two weeks?
ZAKARIA: I think that the Trump administration at the very highest level, President Trump should ask for a very specific, detailed account of what happened. If he and the administration are not satisfied, I don't think Secretary Mnuchin should go. In other words, it seems very difficult to understand why you would not try to get as quickly and as authoritatively as you can a full accounting.
President Trump has great relations with the king and crown prince of Saudi Arabia. He should pick up the phone and ask him, did you -- did you order the murder of an American resident, a "Washington Post" columnist who happens to be a Saudi citizen when he was in Turkey? If the answer to that is not unequivocal, if it does not have detailed proof, it should leave everyone wondering.
LEMON: So, the human factor in this, right? If it is true, as you said, they hacked a journalist to death, but I think about the family, because he has family in the region. This has put them in -- obviously in grief, but they're concerned about their safety, I'm sure, as well.
ZAKARIA: Oh, absolutely. I mean, look, the strange thing about this is Jamal Khashoggi is not an anti-Saudi person. I know him well. About 15, 16 years ago, he was actually my escort to Saudi Arabia when I was editing "Newsweek." I went to Saudi Arabia, made a big trip, and Jamal Khashoggi was the guy shepherding me around along with one other person. Why? Because he was at the time working for the Saudi government. He was a media adviser to prince Turkey, who later became Saudi ambassador to the U.S.
He was always on the side of very moderate incremental reforms. He was never calling for abolition of the monarchy, never for any kind of radical reform. He talked about slow, incremental, but persistent reforms. That was the kind of person he was. He has family in Saudi Arabia. And to have been assassinated this way, if again, if the reports are true, is scary because on the one level, it's either foolish -- it's either something so stupid because you have created this huge controversy.
[22:45:15] Or it suggests something much darker about the Saudi regime. They decided it was worth the price to send a signal to all dissidents, all dissenters, and this is what Putin does. You don't just kill somebody. You kill him on foreign soil, because you want to suggest you can run, but you can't hide. And you want to kill him in a gruesome way, because you want it to be a reminder that your death will be bloody. And if all that is true, what we're seeing is a very different side of the Saudi regime. Saudi Arabia has always been more a patronage state than a police state. They didn't have so much repression. They bribed their way out of problems. This seems like a much darker kind of police state that Vladimir Putin represents. And if that is the Saudi Arabia we're dealing with, we do need a re- evaluation of our Saudi policy.
LEMON: I mean it's terrible just all the way around. Your hearts can't help, but go out for the family. Fareed, thank you very much. I appreciate it. This is why we're so lucky to have you with stories like this. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
We're going to dig deeper into the President's personal and financial relationship with the Saudis, right after this.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump has said he is going to call the king of Saudi Arabia about missing "Washington Post" contributor Jamal Khashoggi, but so far he hasn't gone further in pressuring the Saudis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, are you re-evaluating the relationship with Saudi Arabia?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to find out what happened with respect to the terrible situation in Turkey having to do with Saudi Arabia and the reporter and nobody knows quite yet. Nobody's been able to put it all together. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Donald Trump and the Saudis, they go way back to at least the early 1990s. Could that relationship be playing a role here? I want you to listen to what then candidate Donald Trump said, this is 2015.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Saudi Arabia and I get along great with all of them. They buy apartments from me. They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Michael Isikoff is here, he is the co- author of "Russian roulette, the inside story of Putin's war on America and the election of Donald Trump." David Cay Johnson is here as well. He is the author of "It's even worse than you think, what the Trump administration is doing to America."
Good evening, gentlemen. I appreciate you joining us. So this is fascinating. Let's discuss this. David, back in 1991, Donald Trump was in a whole lot of debt and he got help from a Saudi prince who bought one of his yachts for $20 million. And we're talking about a long-standing financial relationship, right?
DAVID CAY JOHNSON, AUTHOR "IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN YOU THINK, WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING TO AMERICA: Oh, yes. And he also was able to unload the Plaza Hotel in New York which he overpaid for significantly to a Saudi Prince. Trump has been doing business with the Saudis for a long time. During the campaign, he registered eight limited liability companies in Saudi Arabia so he could do more business there. Ivanka talked about doing more business there. And it's not by accident that Donald Trump's first foreign trip was to go to Saudi Arabia and to praise the Saudis for leading the fight against terrorism. By the way, according to our State Department, the Saudis financed 59 of the 61 significant terrorist organizations in the Middle East.
LEMON: What did the Saudis see in Trump? David?
CAY JOHNSON: To me?
LEMON: Yes.
CAY JOHNSON: Well, they see -- well, like the Russians and others they saw early on someone where there were business opportunities, but also an American to court. Remember the Saudis are -- we call it a kingdom, but they are a ruthless dictatorship and they need America much more than we need them. They're in deep financial trouble now and have been for about 15 years, because of oil prices and their spending. And they courted Trump as a businessman believing he would be at some point potentially useful to them. Foreign governments and our government look at people like that the way venture capitalists look at opportunities. They're not all going to pay off, but sometimes someone gets elected President and now you've hit a grand slam home run.
LEMON: Yes. Michael, so it sounds like the Trumps have gotten a lot of help from the Saudi royals. What have the Saudis gotten in exchanged? Have they gotten anything?
MICHAEL ISIKOFF, CHIEF INVESTIGATION CORRESPONDENT, YAHOO NEWS: Sure, I mean, they got a closer alliance with the United States than they've had in quite some time. You know, you referenced the President's first foreign trip to Saudi Arabia. We all remember the, you know, those hard to forget images of the President and others around that are illuminated globe holding it during that trip.
Jared Kushner has become quite close to Mohammad Bin Salman, the crown prince who has become the Defacto ruler of the country and according to many of the reports we've gotten, authorized the operation against Jamal Khashoggi. So you know, the Saudis have reaped enormous dividends. And you know, probably most importantly, the strategic significance that the Trump administration has placed on isolating Iran, ending, pulling out of the nuclear deal basically labeling Iran as the principal destabilizing force in the region.
[22:55:18] Iran is the mortal enemy of Saudi Arabia so the Saudis have seen the Trump administration's moves in the region as very much to their liking and that is why what happened to Jamal Khashoggi is so significant beyond the personal tragedy here, because it is going to be very difficult for the Trump administration for the United States to go back to business as usual with Saudi Arabia after an incident like this.
LEMON: Are there any signs that Trump's rhetoric against, you know -- suggested to the Saudis that they could get away with killing Khashoggi?
ISIKOFF: Look, I interviewed (inaudible), one of Jamal Khashoggi's closest friends in Washington, and we had a story today on this. And that was exactly his analysis. That Trump's rhetoric we might sort of slough it off, because he says so many off the wall outrageous things and even many of his supporters tend to sort of downgrade them or dismiss them at this point, but when people around the world hear the President calling the press the enemy of the people and denouncing fake news and you know all the anti-media rhetoric we've gotten from this President and this White House, you know, they hear that.
And if they are bothered by a meddlesome reporter like Jamal Khashoggi who is criticizing the Saudi regime, you know, it is not unreasonable to conclude that they concluded that they could get away with doing harm to Jamal Khashoggi.
LEMON: David, I think this is a very important story. We have a short time here, but I'll give you the last word. I am overtime, do you agree with that that it's suggesting they could get away with it, his rhetoric?
CAY JOHNSON: Absolutely. Donald has signaled to dictators around the world, the United States no longer will stand up for human rights. He virtually spoke those words early in his presidency. And dictators around the world have taken note and you should be afraid as an American of what that means eventually to you.
LEMON: Thank you both, gentlemen. I appreciate it. Have a good weekend. We'll be right back.
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