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Don Lemon Tonight
Saudis Preparing to Admit Khashoggi Died During Interrogation; The Trump Doctrine and Dictators; Senator Warren's DNA Results Are In; President Trump's Verbal Attacks on Christine Blasey Ford; Trump on "60 Minutes;" Katie Couric Starts Her New Podcast. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 15, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: She got a party. Princess-themed. Pizza. Like a typical kid. Now, she cries, also typical of kids in her situation because she thinks her family might disappear in the night and they might.
We can enforce the law and not do this. Not to kids. Not to anybody. We can respect the constitution and still have compassion. But more and more, I don't think that President Trump wants that. He wants what he says he wants. He wants the harshness and the agencies involved are doing things like this that seem to make good on yet another signature promise.
Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The separation anxiety is real with kids. And it's sad now because I can't even imagine being in that situation. And I don't have kids. I can't imagine how a child -- how the children feel.
CUOMO: I've never seen anything like this before. Not the separation, the policy is not new. Their gusto for it. That's new. How they're enforcing it, that's new.
LEMON: And the waffling. No, we didn't mean it that way. Yes, we did.
CUOMO: It's not waffling. It's lying.
LEMON: It's lying, yeah.
CUOMO: They're lying. They're lying about it. And we keep catching them. We keep catching them and catching them. Why? Because it's so easy. Because it's so obvious what they want. But this, Don, I spent too much time this weekend making phone calls, thinking for sure I was going to blow up this "New Yorker" piece. And say I get why they went for it but this document never happened.
She never signed it. Somebody else signed it. Her grandmother signed it. Somebody else signed it. It wasn't her. And there was a guardian. Somebody said it was OK. It wasn't just some government employee. I know who it was. I don't want to say his name. I don't know all the details yet. They're working on the case. The kid's back home. But I'm telling you, this stinks, Don. It just stinks. It makes me sick.
LEMON: Why do you think it doesn't seem to matter to a certain section of the electorate or Americans?
CUOMO: Because they agree. You broke the law and we don't want you here. You take our jobs and you rape our women.
LEMON: The children?
CUOMO: The kids -- parents shouldn't have brought them.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: What are we supposed to do? We've got enough to worry about. Take your kids and get out. You came illegally. You're not supposed to be here. Asylum maybe, maybe not. Go the right way. We'll figure it out.
LEMON: So much for compassion and empathy.
CUOMO: I'm telling you, it's not what's on the foot of the Statue of Liberty. I'm OK about the political argument. Figure it out. Figure out what you want the process to be. But don't lie about it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And don't do this to kids.
LEMON: You talked about how your family came here as immigrants from Italy.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: And so many American's families came that way. I mean, my or their ancestors. My came over by force.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: But still, it's -- you know, most people who are in this country, who come from immigrant backgrounds, they came over. They didn't have a lot of money. They came over seeking a better life. The families weren't perfect. They weren't well educated. Most of them. But now that people are here, many people seem that, well, we're here, so we want to close the door behind us. What does that say about you as a person?
CUOMO: Says everything.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And all of it is a fallacy. You know, they'll say, hey, my ancestors did it right. I can't tell you how many Italian-Americans say that to me. You were allowed in, there was no quota. There were no obstacles except figuring out a way to get here, probably mortgaging yourself to your eyeballs, begging everybody you want, maybe stow away on a ship. But you just had to get here, you had to get deloused, you had to be denigrated, they would mess with your name, and then you are in. And you had no skills almost all the time. My grandparents who came here, my father's father, dug graves by hand.
He got coaxed by one of his cousins to open a grocery store with his cousin's money. A Jewish man gave him a loan to keep it open. They had no discernible skills. They didn't belong here. They weren't from Norway. What they say they want now. We did all right.
LEMON: Yes. Certainly did. All right, Chris. Thank you, sir. I look forward to seeing you tomorrow.
CUOMO: See you, brother.
LEMON: Have a good night. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. I really want to talk to you about the president of the United States and his fascination with dictators from around the world. The latest example here, the repressive regime in Saudi Arabia headed by King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
It was no accident that President Trump's first foreign trip was to a country that rolled out the red carpet for him in more ways than one. In fact, it was organized by Jared Kushner, a close friend of the Saudi prince.
And now President Trump is going out of his way to buy the Saudi story about what happened to missing journalist Jamal Khashoggi, even while the Saudis are trying to get their story straight right now.
Sources are telling CNN that the Saudis are preparing to report that -- a report that will say that Khashoggi is dead. The victim of an interrogation gone wrong during an attempted abduction. But is even that the truth? How do we know if that's even the truth?
After all, the Saudis have been swearing up and down that Khashoggi left the consulate even though there's closed-circuit TV of him entering but no sign of him leaving.
[22:05:04] Now they're apparently changing their story in the face of outrage from around the world. But the president, he got his own theory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: There is absolutely no evidence of that. But for President Trump, it doesn't seem to matter whether the facts support what the Saudis say. What matters is that they deny it. Strongly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just spoke with the king of Saudi Arabia, who denies any knowledge of what took place with regard to, as he said, his Saudi Arabian citizen. I've asked and he firmly denied that. The king firmly denied any knowledge of it, but his was a flat denial. All I can do is report what he told me.
He told me in a very firm way that they had no knowledge of it. He said it very strongly. His denial to me could not have been stronger. That he had no knowledge and it sounded like he and also the crown prince had no knowledge. The denial was not only a denial, it was a very firm denial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And last night, he told Lesley Stahl this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: As of this moment, they deny it and deny it vehemently. They deny it. They deny it every way you can imagine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So the question is, think about it, why is this president so eager to take the word of the leader of a repressive regime? Simple. It's all about the deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I tell you what I don't want to do. Boeing, Lockheed, Raytheon. All these -- I don't want to hurt jobs. I don't want to lose an order like that. And you know what, there are other ways of punishing, to use a word that's a pretty harsh word, but it's true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Punishing is a harsh word? I'll tell you another harsh word. Murder. A lot of Americans would agree that a regime that murders a U.S. resident should be punished if the crime is proven. I want you to listen to what President Trump says about another dictator, Kim Jong- un.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LESLEY STAHL, HOST, CBS NEWS: Presides over a cruel kingdom of repression, gulags, starvation, reports that he had his half-brother assassinated, slave labor, public executions. This is a guy you love?
TRUMP: I know all these things. I mean, I'm not a baby. I know all these things.
STAHL: I know, but why do you love that guy?
TRUMP: Look, look. I have -- I like -- I get along with him, OK?
STAHL: You said "love him." TRUMP: OK, that's just a figure of speech.
STAHL: No, it's like an embrace.
TRUMP: Well, let it be an embrace, let it be whatever it is to get the job done.
STAHL: He's a bad guy.
TRUMP: Look, let it be whatever it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: I'm not a baby. Whatever it takes to get the job done. And those strong denials from the king of Saudi Arabia, let's see. Where have I heard that before? Oh, yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A strong denial certainly seems to get this president's attention. Whether you're accused of sexually assaulting underage girls, like Roy Moore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He says it didn't happen, and, you know, you have to listen to him also. You're talking about -- he said 40 years ago this did not happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Or you're accused of domestic abuse like Rob Porter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: As you probably know, he says he's innocent. And I think you have to remember that. He said very strongly yesterday that he's innocent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Or whether you're accused of financial crimes like Paul Manafort.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Manafort has totally denied it. He denied it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, the guilty plea put a damper on the president's fondness for Manafort. But this president doesn't trust everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't trust everybody in the White House. I'll be honest with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He trusts dictators around the world, but members of his own administration? Apparently not so much. Not if they disagree with him. The Trump doctrine seems to be pretty simple. Anybody who sides with me or him is OK.
No matter what they do. And anybody who doesn't is his enemy. Is my enemy. All's fair as long as you win. Winning is all that matters to this president. Listen to what he said about Christine Blasey Ford.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STAHL: Do you think you treated her with great respect?
TRUMP: I think so. Yes, I did.
[22:10:00] STAHL: But you seem to be saying that she lied.
TRUMP: You know what, I'm not going to get into it, because we won. It doesn't matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It doesn't matter. We won. You won't find a clearer statement of the Trump doctrine than that. That and never apologize. Even after Elizabeth Warren released DNA results that indicate she has some native American heritage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you owe her an apology?
TRUMP: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the money that you --
TRUMP: I owe her? She owes the country an apology.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So don't apologize. Double down. Here's the thing. As we say here on this show all the time, facts do matter. Facts matter. It matters what happened to Jamal Khashoggi. It matters what Vladimir Putin did during our presidential election and what he may do again. It matters what Kim Jong-un does.
So what happens? What happens if President Trump gets to a point where he needs to rein in these dictators? To protect Americans, to protect the free world. Does this president have any leverage left? Or has he left it all on the table and made a deal with the devil?
A lot to talk about. Max Boot and Major General 'Spider' Marks, both here. We're going to dig into it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Sources telling CNN that the Saudi government is preparing a report admitting that journalist Jamal Khashoggi was killed during a botched interrogation inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.
[22:15:03] Let's discuss now. Max Boot is here. He is the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." And Major General James 'Spider' Marks also joins us as well. Thank you so much. I appreciate you, guys.
JAMES 'SPIDER' MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: General Marks, how skeptical are you of this new Saudi narrative that CNN is reporting?
MARKS: Very skeptical. Look, we have a very strong relationship with Saudi Arabia. I think in terms of our long-term interests, we need to maintain some type of relationship. But you don't botch an interrogation, frankly. I've done a few interrogations. You control the environment. You control all the elements involved. They aren't botched. Unless there's an --
LEMON: How does one come up with that narrative?
MARKS: I don't know what that adjective --
LEMON: What does that actually mean?
MARKS: A botched interrogation, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It was obviously a horrible outcome, which is totally avoidable unless that's the outcome you're looking for.
LEMON: This new narrative, this new explanation, Max, is coming out 13 days later, right? It also contradicts what we heard from the Saudis early on like the blanket denials and their insistence that Khashoggi left the consulate even though there's no video of him leaving the consulate. I just want to read this new statement out tonight by Khashoggi's family.
They say, we are sadly and anxiously following the conflicting news regarding the fate of our father after losing contact with him two weeks ago when he disappeared after entering the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Our family is traumatized and yearns to be together during this painful time.
The strong, moral and legal responsibility which our father instilled in us obliges us to call for the establishment of an independent and impartial internal commission -- international commission, excuse me, to inquire into the circumstances of his death. We are grateful to all those who have respected our privacy during these difficult times.
Do see a scenario where we see an impartial inquiry that this president gets behind?
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I don't see President Trump getting behind it but clearly we need one. I think what's happening is so disturbing on so many levels, Don. First, the notion that one of our closest allies would murder and dismember an American resident, a writer for an American newspaper, on the soil of a NATO ally.
That is so contrary to the norms of international conduct. It is just mind-boggling. Now, we have a president of the United States who instead of holding the Saudis accountable is buying their story and repeating their assurances they didn't really do it or even speculating that rogue killers did it.
I mean, I'm waiting for President Trump to suggest there was some 400- pound couch potato who wandered into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul and somehow murdered poor Jamal Khashoggi. I mean, it's incredible. We need to get to the bottom of this.
If we had a president who was at all concerned about America's moral standing in the world, he would insist that the Saudis have to come clean. We have to deal with them but they are much more dependent on us than we are on them. We cannot let them get away with this.
LEMON: General, speaking of -- you said rogue killers, right? We talked about that just a moment ago. That narrative. Is the president -- is he being -- is he gullible? Do you think he actually believes that that's what's behind his disappearance and that's what happened, the rogue killers came in? Or is that just a cover story so that he actually doesn't have to deal with it? I don't know, I'm just asking.
MARKS: I don't know. I don't know President Trump. The notion that rogue killers would be able to go from Saudi Arabia, enter into Turkey, get into the consulate, the Turks not knowing about it, U.S. intelligence that has a relationship with the Turks not knowing about it, is all very unlikely to me.
So I can't speak for the president. I don't know why he would say that. I have to go back to what Max said. I'm confident that there is leadership within the administration --
LEMON: Right.
MARKS: -- that is going to say, look, Mr. President, or separate from the president, we are going to engage and seek some form of an investigation.
LEMON: It will be handled regardless.
MARKS: Yes. I think it has to. I mean, it absolutely has to.
BOOT: It's ultimately President Trump's call. Remember, the fact is that, you know, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has a very close relationship with Crown Prince, Jared Kushner and that's who's really in charge with our relationship with Saudi Arabia. I mean, there are a lot of officials in the administration who are not snookered by the Saudis, but Jared Kushner is very close to MBS. MARKS: But I would say MBS is star and his stock are falling --
BOOT: Rapidly.
MARKS: -- as a result of this. Look, this is an international incident.
LEMON: MBS, meaning Mohammed bin Salman.
MARKS: Yes, Mohammed bin Salman. It can't be handled internally exclusively. It's on the international stage which means there are critics and there are observers of all that. His stock right now is in decline which means there are other competitors who might be out there for that position.
BOOT: I think that's an important point. It's not that we have to jeopardize our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Jared Kushner and President Trump have basically given MBS, the crown prince, a blank check, to do all sorts of reckless and foolish things like kidnapping the prime minister of Lebanon last year and blockading Qatar. The blank check has to be rescinded.
We don't, you know, MBS was only recently installed as the crown prince. He does not have to be the crown prince forever.
[22:20:00] He's showing himself to be unworthy of that honor.
LEMON: Just in the open, you know, I talked about dictators, how it appears -- it's just facts. I played his words exactly what he said about these dictators and exactly what he said in the "60 Minutes" interview about members of his own administration that he does not trust. Right?
So he's quick to believe the king. He also is quick to believe Putin when he says, oh, he didn't meddle in the election. He doesn't believe there are human rights atrocities. Kim Jong-un, he said there's love letters and on and on and on.
So, why -- how much does this say about the Trump doctrine that he cozies up to these autocrats and dictators so much, what does that say about him?
MARKS: I don't understand why that would be a tactic that he would want to kind of embrace. I do understand the issue of having America's access internationally being unimpeded, but you do that through very strong alliances, you do that through partnerships.
You don't do it by embracing those that clearly don't embrace our values. You can still have a relationship with bad guys. United States can have relationships with bad guys in certain areas.
LEMON: Right.
MARKS: But you can't internationally embrace that type of behavior.
LEMON: Okay.
MARKS: Can't do that.
LEMON: So my question is, is this because you said it will be handled? I'm confident that -- this is such a situation that has to be handled. You're not so confident --
MARKS: I'm not that confident.
LEMON: -- handled properly. Hopefully the people around him will take care of that. But the question is his rhetoric. Could his rhetoric be stronger or different or should it be stronger or different? Should he say, you know, there's going to be hell to pay, which I think someone did say.
BOOT: He needs to stand up for American values and he's not doing that here. He's basically kowtowing to dictators and because he consistently shows that he admires these dictators and, perhaps, even wants to emulate their example, this is not what America is all about. We've been the champion of freedom and democracy in the world for a long time. That's key to our international standing. Donald Trump is sacrificing that. You know, he's always got goals that he claims like he says, oh, we can't sacrifice this $110 billion worth of arms sales.
Well, in the first place, that's a lot. It's $110 billion. And the second place, the Saudis can't readily switch from our equipment. And in the third place, you can't sell our values for a few billion dollars.
LEMON: Yes, I think they said it's actually around $20 million.
BOOT: Right, much less than what he's talking about.
LEMON: That's got to be the last word. Thank you, gentlemen. I really appreciate it.
A sign of the times we're in right now, I can't believe I'm saying this just like I can't believe I have to say on television, Barack Obama produced his birth certificate. Senator Elizabeth Warren unveiling her DNA report showing she has at least some native American blood.
That after President Trump's constant attacks and insults over her heritage. He even promised a million dollars -- he promised a million dollars to charity if she could prove her DNA. So, why was this his response today? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: No, I have no --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you pay one million --
TRUMP: Who cares? Who cares?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Massachusetts Senator and potential 2020 presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren is fighting back against attacks by President Trump and others over her heritage. Took a DNA test. And the results show that she has some native American ancestry. The announcement was made in a video with Warren speaking to a geneticist. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: You know, the president likes to call my mom a liar. What do the facts say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The facts suggest that you absolutely have native American ancestry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So let's discuss now. Chris Cillizza is here. Also April Ryan, the author of "Under Fire: Reporting From the Front Lines of the Trump White House." Michael D'Antonio -- he's the author of the book, "The Truth About Trump." Don't you have a Pence one, too?
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I do, but things are moving so fast.
(LAUGHTER)
D'ANTONIO: There could be another vice president soon. He could be president. Who knows.
LEMON: I'm waiting for the truth about Putin, so whenever you do that one, let me know.
D'ANTONIO: Yes, sir.
LEMON: Good evening, everyone. So, Chris, the president has been berating Elizabeth Warren, calling her Pocahontas for a long time. Is that the way to fight back? Why do you think she did this?
CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: She did it for two relatively obvious reasons. One, Don, I think she wanted to deal with it on her own terms as best as she could. And, two, I think it was either she or her team or a combination of the two thought it was hurting her in advance of what looks now like a very certain 2020 presidential bid.
LEMON: Chris, why do it? This is a guy that won't even show his taxes, that doesn't apologize for anything. Why just not ignore it and use it as, you know, obviously I guess she's going to run, right? That's why she's doing it.
CILLIZZA: Yes.
LEMON: Why not use it in that fashion? Why should I take a DNA test? Why should I show you my heritage when you won't even show me your tax returns? Why should I show you my heritage when you won't even release your college records?
CILLIZZA: OK, so, what you just outlined is what I would describe broadly speaking as the Avenatti argument. Michael Avenatti is essentially saying you need to fight Donald Trump on his own terms. Michael Avenatti, who by the way wants to run for president in 2020 as a Democrat, too. Warren is playing by an older playbook, certainly. One that is more conventional which is you get your negatives, you get out in front of your negatives.
LEMON: Got it.
CILLIZZA: You try to define them. I know we focus on how this is about Trump. He's the one calling her names. He's the one bringing it up all the time. But you're right, Donald Trump is -- she could have come out with a Stanford geneticist saying she's full-blooded, 100 percent native American, he would still say the things he said.
I actually think this is more about Democratic voters, Democratic activists, Democratic donors. I think she was concerned that there would be sort of a whisper campaign --
LEMON: There must be some research somewhere.
CILLIZZA: That she's too weak and has too big a hole in her resume to take on Donald Trump.
LEMON: OK. I got to get these other guys in. We're hogging the segment.
CILLIZZA: Sorry.
LEMON: That's all right. There must be some research, maybe her team did research that showed she needed to get in front of it. I digress. April, this is what the president said today when he was asked if he should apologize to Elizabeth Warren. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:30:04] TRUMP: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the money that --
TRUMP: She owes the country an apology. What's the percentage, 1/1,000th?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't have the exact number.
TRUMP: When you have percentage, tell me what that is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the money you told her you would...
TRUMP: You mean if she gets the nomination in a debate where I was going to have her tested? I'll only do it if I can test her personally, OK? That will not be something I enjoy doing, either.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So April, doesn't sound like he's backing down. It doesn't sound like he's backing down. Now, it's the percentage. Not that she actually has Native American blood.
APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
LEMON: There's a debate about how much or whatever. So I get that. But now we're talking percentages. And it also struck me the First Lady is standing there, you know, be best bullying, I mean, come on.
RYAN: Well, first of all, it's disgusting. The whole thing is disgusting, you know. Now we have the President who is geneticist-in- chief, wanting to administer his own DNA test.
LEMON: Does he know how DNA works?
RYAN: But look, you ask him. I don't even want to know the answer because, you know, it would be -- anyway, moving on. So the bottom line is, is that, you know, earlier in the day, the President said, you know, if indeed she becomes President, we will be like, you know, America would be like Venezuela. But at the end of the day, you know, Elizabeth Warren is fighting what is considered the Trump effect, the smearing, what he says is perceived to be reality in his core base.
You know he smeared Hillary Clinton, Crooked Hillary. That stuck. President Obama, then-President Obama, you know, was just pushed to the point that he had to produce his birth certificate. Now, she has to come up with a DNA test. But at issue is, you know, this fight over who is Native American and who's not and the percentages.
You have a community that's still hurting. You have a community of Native Americans that are being purged from voter rolls right now, because they live on reservations and don't have street addresses. You have this community that's still hurting. So as they're talking about who is Native American or not, there's a community that's hurting, and the spotlight needs to be put on them.
LEMON: That's where the focus...
RYAN: Instead of this back and forth for 2020.
LEMON: That is a very, very good point. And that million dollars, that would be a great place for it to go, right, Michael?
RYAN: I know.
LEMON: Michael, listen...
RYAN: Yes.
LEMON: Where do you -- the President who has a bully pulpit, he's got the biggest microphone, right, in the world, unarguably, right? Where do you go when -- let's see, when he gives you that name, it's hard to shake. You have Lying Ted, Little Marco, Low Energy Jeb, and Crooked Hillary. Where do you go to...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Now Pocahontas, right?
D'ANTONIO: The shtick is wearing out. This is why Fox is really questioning broadcasting his rallies. So it's wearing out with their viewers. And I think Elizabeth Warren could suggest that if she took a genetic test, and she did, perhaps the President could take an IQ test to verify his really stable genius claim.
This gets to be absurd, and the country recognizes that it's absurd. And who doesn't pay a bet? A punk doesn't pay a bet.
LEMON: Oh.
D'ANTONIO: So is this President a guy who can man up or is he a punk? He lost the bet. So if he doesn't want to pay the full amount, maybe he pays a percentage commensurate with Elizabeth Warren's Indian blood. Oh, I know, we just had the tape of it.
LEMON: All right. This is a night of absurdity. All of you are right. This is the height of absurdity. OK, so listen, I want you to stick around. We're going to talk about what the President said about Christine Blasey Ford next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:00] LEMON: See 60 Minutes? Well, in that interview, President Trump brushed off criticism of his attacks on Kavanaugh accuser, Christine Blasey Ford. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You mimicked Professor Blasey Ford. You mimicked her.
TRUMP: Had I not made that speech, we would not have won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We would not have won. Back with me now, Chris, April, and Michael. So Michael, when if cot comes to Kavanaugh, sounds like no matter how hurtful, right, Trump believes in the end whatever -- the means or the end justifies the means.
D'ANTONIO: Absolutely. The ends justify the means. And this is how he has always lived. It doesn't matter if people at Trump University got cheated. He got what he wanted out of it until he got caught. And you know, this is the thing that he said to me. He said I didn't get caught, when he talked about offenses he'd committed. People he had hurt.
If he didn't get caught, then there was no price attached to it. In this case, we have a woman who he mocked mercilessly, who said in her testimony that the worst thing that happened to her during the assault was people laughing at her, these two young men laughing at her. And so he encourages a crowd of Americans to laugh at her. There's no amount of cruelty in the case of the killing in Turkey.
There's no amount of bloodshed that I think is enough for him to stop. This -- suffering doesn't matter to him.
LEMON: Win at all costs, April. Is that the real Trump doctrine? You're there at the White House almost every day. You're covering this administration.
RYAN: Yes. Yes, by any means necessary. That's the Trump doctrine. In 2018 by someone new who's saying it. This President was someone that Dr. Ford was looking to for fairness and for help, when he, you know, allowed the FBI to investigate, be it limited in scope, the investigation or a broad investigation. She was looking for fairness and someone to understand, someone who was morally upright to understand her pain.
She didn't get that. And many Americans, many women, many people who have been sexually assaulted, or people of good will who watch this, are very upset. And at the cost of pain for this woman and others, we'll see how this plays out. This any means necessary attempt or doctrine plays out in the midterms because people are saying they're thinking about just what he did. His win as they go to the polls.
[22:40:18] LEMON: So the President, multiple times, repeated a single word during the "60 Minutes" interview, Chris. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I know all these things. I mean I am not a baby. But I am not saying I trust everybody in the White House. I am not a baby. I always used to say the toughest people in Manhattan real estate guys and -- now I say they're babies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who's the toughest?
TRUMP: The political people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So listen, not to be nitpicky, but did you guys notice that. That stood out to me during the interview. I said how many times is he going to say I am not a baby or this person's a baby? What's with the baby thing, Chris?
CILLIZZA: Well, I did -- he sees things very -- in very black and white terms. I don't mean racially in this respect. He -- you're either strong or you're weak. You're either a winner or you're a loser.
LEMON: Or baby or adult.
CILLIZZA: Right. You either hate him or you love him. There's no in between. The worst thing that you can be in Donald Trump's world is -- why by the way, he doesn't like when men cry, is not tough. That is a death sentence in the world of Donald Trump's sort of political world. You must be tough at all times. You must be the alpha. You must show that you are winning. You see it again and again in that Lesley Stahl interview.
You see him talking about how, well, we won, as it related to Brett Kavanaugh getting confirmed. So therefore, whether he mocked her, whether or not he was purposely making fun of her, none of that matters because they won. That's how he sees the world. Everything is a battle. Everything is a mano y mano fight, in which you have to prove your manliness, your toughness, your superiority.
That -- he's looked at the world, Michael's written about this. He's looked at the world that way his entire adult life. It's not going to change now that he's in politics.
LEMON: OK. Michael, I want you to respond.
D'ANTONIO: What grown man has -- I am not a baby in his head?
LEMON: All right. I want to play this.
D'ANTONIO: This is not fair to babies.
LEMON: OK. Come on.
D'ANTONIO: But think about...
LEMON: Mic drop. Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: That baby balloon.
LEMON: I know.
RYAN: Think about that baby balloon that was flying over London, yeah.
LEMON: One more exchange. This one is about Defense Secretary Mattis and NATO. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true General Mattis said to you, the reason for NATO and the reason for all these alliances is to prevent World War III.
TRUMP: No, it's not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's not?
TRUMP: Frankly, I like General Mattis. I think I know more about it than he does. And I know more about it from the standpoint of fairness that I can tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: General Mattis was a former ally commander of NATO. But the President knows more about NATO than Mattis does, Michael? D'ANTONIO: Well, during the campaign, he said he knew more about war
and peace than the generals. He was questioning whether the NATO alliance had been in place to keep the peace and been a success. This is just absurdity. And -- but he's the President of the United States and Lesley Stahl is not.
LEMON: All right. This gives...
(CROSSTALK)
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: He doesn't read his intelligence reports. Who doesn't even read his intelligence reports?
LEMON: I got to go. Thank you, all. I appreciate it.
RYAN: Bye.
CILLIZZA: Thank you.
LEMON: OK. So I am really excited about this next segment. It's serious business. But I can't wait to get her perspective, because President Trump also talking about the division in our country in his big interview. And Katie Couric has some ideas about why the country's politics are so polarized. She's going to tell me what Sarah Palin has to do with it. Katie's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:45:00] LEMON: So just three weeks ago, can you believe it, until the midterm elections. President Trump is trying to stop a possible Democratic blue wave, a possible one, his new tactic using inflammatory talking points to attack Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I need your help this Election Day, November 6th, to stop the radical Democrat mob. In their quest for power, the radical Democrats have turned into an angry mob. You don't hand matches to an arsonist. And you don't give power to an angry left-wing mob. And that's what the Democrats have become.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So I want to talk about this now with Katie Couric who's hosting her own podcast. Hi, Katie.
KATIE COURIC, HOST, KATIE COURIC PODCAST: Hi, Don.
LEMON: So good to have you on.
COURIC: Nice to be here, kind of weird.
LEMON: I never thought that I'd be interviewing Katie Couric. I thought maybe one day Katie would be interviewing me. COURIC: Maybe one day I will. You never know. A man can dream.
LEMON: So how are you?
COURIC: I am good. I am good.
LEMON: What do you think of this mob messaging?
COURIC: You know I found it really fascinating. You wonder if the Republicans get together and discuss talking points, because you heard Mitch McConnell using that kind of language. You heard Orrin Hatch, Marco Rubio. They've been repeating angry mobs, as if, you know, the activism that's been unleashed following Donald Trump's election is frightening.
You know they also use the word dangerous, a lot, kind of trying to portray these protesters at anarchists. And I think of the townspeople in Beauty and the Beast when they have the torches and they're all chasing after the beast. So I think it's trying to be very evocative and provocative, and really stoking a lot of fear to galvanize the Republican base prior to the midterms.
[22:49:52] LEMON: There are people out there who are doing things among those groups that should not be doing them. People who are, you know, confronting their...
COURIC: At restaurants.
LEMON: Yes.
COURIC: Or harassing people. Yes, I mean think that obviously there is enough anger to go around on all sides. But I think the President hasn't done much to tamp down that anger. And instead, he seems to try to stoke it whenever possible at his rallies, whether he's mocking Dr. Ford or saying all kinds of really, I think, you know, inappropriate things.
LEMON: What about the mob? That was a real mob in Charlottesville that killed a young lady.
COURIC: That's right. And I was there in the middle of it during that terrible day in August a year and change ago. That -- you know you do wonder about the language that the President uses and the way he portrays the press. In fact, if that inflames people and creates a violent situation that puts a lot of journalists in danger in countries all over the world, including Saudi Arabia or Turkey.
LEMON: That was my next question. Do you think -- I feel that we're going to get to point where it's becomes violent.
COURIC: Well, you have to wonder. There is so much animosity, and he's stirring this up against, you know, the institution of the media. And you wonder if that's giving people license. I mean I am sure the CNN reporters, a lot of reporters are really frightened and feel very scared at these rallies when people, you know, shake their fists at them or yell at them or spit at them, and do all kinds of things to them.
And you know one of the reasons we wanted to look back at 10 years ago of Sarah Palin's candidacy, you'll remember that she really started instigating a lot of that stuff with the mainstream media. And just (Inaudible) who was a CNN reporter covering the Palin campaign said she remembers very clearly during some of these rallies, her supporters turning around and booing and screaming and then hissing, and how intimidated she was and how frightened she was, and how they were connecting the media with, you know, with all kinds of institutions that they were appalled and angry at.
LEMON: You talk about that. And you have a two-part podcast where you talk about that. And you talk about your Sarah Palin interview and you also talk about, you know, how, you know, this whole animosity towards the media started and towards your opponent, because when they were running together, John McCain and Sarah Palin, John McCain had that whole confrontation when a woman said Barack Obama was other, was a Muslim.
COURIC: Right, right, right. And that was played so often after John McCain passed away, because he -- as you remember, he put, you know, quote, threw cold water on those claims.
LEMON: She did the opposite.
COURIC: Yes. She -- people would yell treason at these rallies. They would -- she would say I don't think Barack Obama sees America the way we see America. There would be all kinds of things yelled. And she would never, unlike John McCain, try to lower the temperature at these rallies. And so many people think kind of the atmosphere she created and the way she connected and really riled up the base, that was all about the base as Meghan (Inaudible) would sing.
You know that really -- the genesis of Trump, President Trump's kind of interaction with his crowds at his rallies really -- the seed was planted with Sarah Palin.
LEMON: With Sarah Palin because Trump is now fake news. Remember lame stream media.
COURIC: Oh, yeah, the lame stream media.
LEMON: You wrote about that in the Atlantic. And I thought you said, you know, Sarah Palin supporters -- talking about -- you said another -- let's see, Palin ant-Obama (Inaudible) led to a man to yell out kill him. Palin did not push back against her often angry crowds, you said. And then again, Palin not only refused to lower the temperature, she seemed to bask in that kind of heat.
COURIC: Right, and was a harbinger of things to come. David Axelrod said you can really, you know, draw a straight line between Sarah Palin and the candidacy and later presidency of Donald Trump in how he conducts himself.
LEMON: Yes. Let's watch. You mention -- we were talking on the break about the Leslie Stahl interview, and I thought she did a really good job in that interview. Lets -- this is Donald Trump in the interview talking about the deeply divided country. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This country is divided, polarized within families. There aren't even people who can talk to each other. What does this say about where we are as a country right now, all this division and strife and anger?
TRUMP: I think what is going to happen, I think the economy is bringing people together. It was very polarized under President Obama, unbelievably polarized under President Obama. I can see the country uniting. I can see it. We have people, Democrats who behaved horribly during the Judge Kavanaugh -- you know what I am saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What do you think of that? The country is uniting now. It was divided under Obama?
[22:54:57] COURIC: I mean I think there are always divisions within the country, and people who may disagree with certain policies. But I find the rhetoric that President Trump uses is so inflammatory. And you know I was hopeful that when he became President that he would try to unite the country, that he would reach out.
But I think that he realizes he can't win with a certain segment of the population. So he's really all about the base and wants to appeal to the base. I saw a close advisor of his who will remain unnamed at a restaurant recently in New York, and I said why can't you rein him in. Why can't you tell him to restrain himself, because he's creating such toxicity? And he said, you know, it just isn't in his nature.
And I think particularly when he gets in front of crowds at rallies. He becomes almost intoxicated by the attention. And as a result, just unleashes the most -- I think, gosh, I don't know, just inappropriate...
LEMON: Vitriol.
COURIC: Yes.
LEMON: I got to ask you this. I know we're a little bit long, producers. So don't get mad. I'm enjoying this interview. So let's talk about that, because you know him, you know, know him from around, not probably not as well as you do. You interviewed him before. And so when you interview him, nice enough person, but then when you see him at the rallies on television, who is that person?
COURIC: You know I did know him. I mean I don't profess to have known him well. But when I was at NBC, he was on the Apprentice. And, you know, I remember he was often very kind to me. And I went to his wedding, I think, because of our relationship at NBC. And, you know, I remember calling him once and I had a problem because it was after my husband had died and my daughter was having a skating party at the rink that then Mr. Trump owned. And I said, you know, can we stay a half hour later? I forget. And
he said absolutely. I mean he was always trying to do really nice things. He was a big supporter of my colon cancer efforts. I remember sitting at one event between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, and they were both supporting what I was trying to do to raise funds for research and increase awareness of colorectal cancer in this country. So he has a very kind benevolent side.
LEMON: (Inaudible).
COURIC: But I just -- I don't quite understand what has happened to him, this kind of sort of combative, pugnacious, nasty kind of politicking and appealing to, you know our lowest common denominator. It's terribly disappointing and really, you know, very upsetting. I mean you deal with it every night.
LEMON: I do. I call it (Inaudible).
COURIC: Yes.
LEMON: It is, for anything -- for a political purpose, which is...
COURIC: Well, as we saw in that interview, you know, when he said repeatedly you're going to get so sick. You know you're going to -- I am going to win so much you're going to get tired of winning. Very Charlie Sheen-ish, but even said to Leslie Stahl it doesn't matter. We won.
LEMON: Should Democrats adopt the same kind of language?
COURIC: I know that's a big debate within the party right now. And I hope that, you know, I sort of agree with Michelle Obama. When they go low, we go high. And I know that people think we, you know, what Eric Holder has talked about that, and then Hillary Clinton recently. And I don't know. I can't be on Twitter for more than a few minutes because the vitriol is so overwhelming.
And it just makes you feel so terrible all the time. Si I am hoping that it's not a race to the bottom, but perhaps it will be. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think?
LEMON: I hope it's not.
COURIC: You ask good questions.
LEMON: You do ask good questions, so I'll get you back. But will you please come back? I'll let you interview me if you want to?
COURIC: OK.
LEMON: But this is Katie and I talking when we run into each other on the street? This is the same conversation.
COURIC: Very interesting, very upsetting times.
(CROSSTALK) COURIC: Wrap it up, Don.
LEMON: Katie, thank you so much.
COURIC: Good to see you. Thank you for mentioning the podcast.
LEMON: Yes. Best of luck, and we're going to mention it again, best of luck to your family, say hello to everyone.
COURIC: I will.
LEMON: To the girls.
COURIC: OK. Thanks, Don.
LEMON: And you can hear more from Katie Couric on her new podcast, OK? So go search it out and find it. We'll be right back.
