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Don Lemon Tonight

Saudi Officials Cleaning Their Hands on Khashoggi's Disappearance; Trump Wants Evidence of Khashoggi's Alleged Murder; Pompeo Telling Mohammed bin Salman to Address the Khashoggi Disappearance; Rod Rosenstein Defending Robert Mueller's Russia Investigation; Record Number of Families Crossing the Border; CNN is Following the Money. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired October 17, 2018 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Ladies and gentlemen, President Donald Trump. That's all for us tonight. Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I -- OK. So, this president doesn't believe in facts. The world is round. I mean, come on.

CUOMO: But he does have an Uncle John who worked at MIT.

LEMON: I thought what you said was really good, not to undermine what you were saying. I'm just saying, is it surprising to us? I mean.

CUOMO: I was a little surprised by his chain of rationale on this.

LEMON: Come on.

CUOMO: It's like me saying may he rest in peace, I had an Uncle Frank who worked in management for Wall Baum's out on Long Island. And that's why when it comes to physics, I feel like I have a knack for it.

LEMON: Yes. Well, Chris, I know more than the generals. He said that before the election. And then he just said the other day, he knew more than the generals, remember especially when it comes to I think what he says about compassionates or something I forget in the 60 Minutes interview.

It's not surprising. Yes, it's -- we should keep -- we should point it out. I'm glad that you pointed it out. But as you said, this is where we are right now. And that's from the president of the United States. It's just flabbergasting. Almost every single day seems to become more surreal and surreal, especially when -- especially when you look at the facts, and then when you and I and others, when we put his own words on television, and they contradict each other.

And then people say we're being biased. Sorry if you think I'm biased by playing the president's own words. That's what he said.

CUOMO: Well, I'll tell you what. Unfortunately, he is playing on fertile ground. When it comes to science, we have some really weird trending going on in this country. Did you know in the younger generation, one out of three in a recent poll said they are not completely convinced -- ready for this -- that the earth is round.

LEMON: Is round. Remember the flat earth society? So I'm glad you mentioned young people. This is, again, we're going to switch subjects here. I was going to talk to you a moment about your conversation with Steve and Symone, which was just fascinating to me.

I am so glad that you're on that story, and we have been on the Khashoggi story a lot as well.

But when you were speaking about young people, I had a conversation with my mom late into the night last night, and she was talking about the state of politics in this country. And she said, I wonder if young people, especially young people of color and women -- she's wondering why they don't have any historical reference because when she was growing up, she was one of the people who protested at lunch counters.

She said, they don't know about the dogs. They don't know about the hoses. They don't know about not being able to go into restaurants. They don't know about that, so they don't know what's at stake in any election.

And so, they don't go out to vote, and that is just so frustrating and mind-boggling to her, and she's a member of the generation before us. But I respect that generation because they really lived it and went there, and that's why we all need to get out and exercise our constitutional right to vote.

CUOMO: That's why the older generation is so worried by the great efforts being made to divide the country right now. So much of the work -- and, look, we always had a lot more work to do. I mean this is an experiment that we're all living here. It's not a very old one either by civilization standards.

But when they see how easily people are teasing things apart, that they worked so hard to bring closer together, it's frightening. Especially people like your mom who had the heart and the head and the conviction to put herself out there for the betterment of herself and others.

LEMON: My mom had to walk to school while school buses to the white school would pass her on the road every day. This just a couple weeks ago when she was here visiting me, she was telling me about when she was in the hospital having me, there was one little section in the back of the hospital, a row that was a blacks only row. And you sat there, and if white women came in before you, they got taken care of before you and until they were done.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You know what's scary too, I speak to African-Americans.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It wasn't that long ago.

LEMON: It wasn't that -- this is my -- I was born in 1966. It wasn't that long ago. In 1980 -- when I was in high school in the '80s, the Ku Klux Klan would pass out literature in front of my school on Groom Road in Baker, Louisiana. That is a fact. One of my best friends lived down the street from the Grand Dragon or Grand Wizard, one of them, of that chapter in Baker/ central Louisiana. This was not that long ago.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It's not that long ago.

LEMON: My mom was telling me again last night that she would take my grandmother to the polling place. They would make her count jelly beans in the jar before she could vote or try to guess the number of jelly beans in a jar. All of this, and the reason I'm saying it is because we're going to talk tonight about voter suppression, the efforts that are under way.

CUOMO: Right.

[22:04:55] LEMON: And it's just mind-boggling to me that some people can sit home and say, I'm not going to get out and vote, or they don't even think about it. They have no idea that an election is coming up. It's just crazy.

CUOMO: Right. And look, people will say, look, come on, we're in a much better place than we were there. Yes, but things are fragile.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: And when the proud boys show up, it makes people scared.

LEMON: Exactly.

CUOMO: And when people say, including the president, you know, there are good people along with the KKK too, it makes people scared.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And when people want to point out something that is true, which is people who call themselves antifa who commit crimes and are violent, those are thugs, they're criminals, they're not protesters. But those who want to immediately equate it with the KKK and say well, they're equal, they equal scares people. Scares people.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And with good reason. And that's why there's an urgency about bringing ourselves back together as quickly as possible.

LEMON: People die for the right.

CUOMO: And again, look at.

LEMON: Get out and vote. CUOMO: You know what else happened, though? From your mom waiting at

the counters, from your mom having to witness all those dignities, look where you are now.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: The man.

LEMON: That's why I'm here.

CUOMO: Ten o'clock at night, two-hour show, only two-hour on primetime as you like to remind me every 15 seconds.

LEMON: The smartest and the best looking. My gosh, we're dressed alike. I just noticed that. It's crazy.

CUOMO: Yes. Like it wasn't intentional on your part.

LEMON: Please, don't flatter yourself. My gosh, your ego is ridiculous. I'm surprised it can fit in the studio.

CUOMO: Who wears the black suit and the black tie, everybody?

LEMON: See you tomorrow.

CUOMO: One of them says let's get after it.

LEMON: Thank you, Chris. Good night.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

And you know what? I have said this before. The world is watching. The world is outraged by what looks more and more like the brutal murder of a United States resident, a journalist.

And that outrage may finally be forcing the president's hand tonight. Here's what a source is telling CNN, that the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo gave Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman a blunt message. If the Saudis don't own what happened, if they don't deal sharply with the people involved, the U.S. will have to deal with this. The world will demand it.

We'll see what happens when the secretary meets with President Trump tomorrow. That's going to happen at 10 a.m. tomorrow.

We heard what the secretary said behind the scenes, but this is what he said today when he was asked whether the Saudis had told him whether Khashoggi is dead or alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't want to talk about any of the facts. They didn't want to either.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: He doesn't want to talk about the facts? Well, that's exactly what the world wants, the facts. The truth about what happened to Jamal Khashoggi. Why did he go over there?

And this may be adding fuel to the fire because CNN is also learning that President Trump has been frustrated by reports suggesting that he's been cozying up with a repressive and allegedly murderous regime. And it sounds like he wasn't happy about this photo op yesterday.

This is Pompeo and the crown prince. A source insisting that those smiles ended at the end of that photo op. That's what they say. We don't know. But the more we learn about what may have happened to Jamal Khashoggi, the more horrifying this story gets.

Turkey says grisly details from an audio recording of Khashoggi's alleged killing suggest that he was tortured, then murdered shortly after he went inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. The president questioning whether that recording even exists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you asked for this audio/video intelligence that the Turks--

(CROSSTALK)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have asked for it if it exists. We have asked for it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you gotten it?

TRUMP: We've asked for it if it exist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you surprised that they haven't turned it over?

TRUMP: No. I'm not sure yet that it exists. Probably does. Possibly does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Turkey has yet to release any such recording, but you've got to wonder if it does exist, how much longer that they can keep it under wraps and how explosive it will be if it ever sees the light of day.

This is more than a dozen Turkish forensic investigators wearing gloves and white Hazmat suits topped with black vests. Those vests labeled police. They spent the day going over the residence of the Saudi consul general with a fine-toothed comb.

Turkish media saying that they collected a large number of DNA samples. And remember those passport scans of seven men Turkey believes were connected to what happened to Khashoggi? One of them appears to be Salah Muhammed Al-Tubaigy, the head of forensic medicine at the Saudi interior ministry. A London newspaper interviewed him four years ago when he came up with

technology that he said allowed him to dissect a body at a crime scene in seven minutes or less. Chilling.

[22:10:05] Here's what the Washington Post is reporting tonight, that the White House and the Saudi royal family are trying to come up with an explanation for what appears to be the death of Jamal Khashoggi without implicating the crown prince. Even though several U.S. officials have told CNN that an operation like this could never have happened without the crown prince's direct knowledge.

Now listen to this one. Rudy Giuliani is telling the Post, many senior members of the Trump administration concluded more than a week ago that the Saudis had killed Khashoggi. Rudy Giuliani.

And the New York Times is reporting that American intelligence officials are increasingly convinced that the crown prince is culpable. So why is the president still siding with the Saudis? The president today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm not giving cover at all. With that being said, Saudi Arabia has been a very important ally of ours in the Middle East. If you look at Saudi Arabia, they're an ally, and they're a tremendous purchaser of not only military equipment but other things.

When I went there, they committed to purchase $450 billion worth of things and $110 billion worth of military. Those are the biggest orders in the history of this country, probably the history of the world. I don't think there's ever been any order for $450 billion, and you remember that day in Saudi Arabia where that commitment was made.

So, they're an important ally, but I want to find out what happened. Where is the fault? And we will probably know that by the end of the week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So as always, you have to fact-check what the president says often. So, the fact is even that $110 billion figure is off the mark. The Saudis have only followed through on that about $114 billion -- $114.5 billion so far.

This is as the president also insisting that he has no financial interest in Saudi Arabia. He says he has none. But we know his hotels have made hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Saudis just since he took the oath of office. And we might know more if this president had released his tax returns as ever president since Richard Nixon has done.

Here's what our founders feared. They feared a chief executive under the influence of a foreign power. That's why they wrote the Emoluments Clause in our Constitution, you know, all these strict constitutionalists that are just turning a blind eye to this. There is an emoluments case against the president in federal court

right now. But the fact is this president made his position clear long ago, when he made his first foreign trip as president. That first trip, Saudi Arabia. That's when Saudi Arabia rolled out the red carpet, and this president, as much as told the regime he would give them a free pass on the human rights. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We are not here to lecture. We are not here to tell other people how to live, what to do, who to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This president has dodged a lot of scandals by sweeping them right under the rug. Just this month, there was that bombshell tax report in the New York Times. He swept it under the rug. But this is different. This time it's different because this looks more and more like murder. A particularly brutal murder. And yet this president is fighting back the only way he really knows how -- dodging.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Distracting. Telling the Associated Press, here we go again. You know, you're guilty until proven innocent. Well, this is as the world is demanding the truth about what happened to Jamal Khashoggi. The world is watching and waiting.

Let's talk about it now with Nicholas Kristof and Max Boot. Also, Asha Rangappa. We'll have new details from CNN's Jamie Gangel right after the break.

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So tonight, sources telling CNN that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo warned Saudi Arabia's crown prince his future as king depends on how he handles the suspected murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

I want to talk about this breaking news now with CNN's Special Correspondent, Jamie Gangel. Jamie joins me by phone with new information. Jamie, good evening to you. Thank you so much. You know, we saw all smiles in that photo op between the secretary of state and MBS, but you're reporting that that's where the smiles ended. So walk me through what you're being told happened behind the scene, behind closed doors.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. I'm told that what followed when those cameras were off was a blunt, direct message from Secretary of State Pompeo to the crown prince, MBS, and that Pompeo warned the crown prince that every fact about what happened is going to come out and that he has to, quote, "own the situation," take responsibility, and that Pompeo also told him in no uncertain terms that the Saudis had better get their investigation done very quickly.

And Pompeo stressed that they have to deal with the people involved, and the quote was "that they have to deal with them sharply."

And finally, that the secretary of state went on to tell the crown prince that if the Saudis don't take action, the U.S. will have to deal with this, that the president's hand will be forced because the world will demand it. And you just said, Don, the world is watching. Don?

LEMON: Jamie Gangel with the new reporting. Jamie, thank you very much. I want to bring in now Nicholas Kristof and Max Boot. He is the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." Also with us is Asha Rangappa.

[22:20:05] Good evening. Thank you so much. As always, we're about the truth and facts here. And as you pointed out to me, Nicholas -- I misspoke. It should be I said 114.5. It should be 14.5. Explain what the error that I made. It was written properly. I just read it wrong.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": So, the Saudis had promised to buy $110 billion worth of weaponry from the U.S. President Trump has repeatedly cited this is a reason why our relationship with Saudi Arabia is so important, that we have $110 billion worth of weapons on the table.

And in fact, the Saudis in that case as in a number of others essentially duped us. They made big promises. So far, only about $14 billion of that has actually come to pass, and just as they had talked about supporting President Trump's peace agreement for the Middle East, then backed off that. Their -- MBS talks a very good game. I think he knows how to push American buttons, but I think he played the administration.

LEMON: Thank you for doing that. Thank you for pointing it out to me as well. So, Max, let me get your reaction, your initial reaction to this reporting that Jamie Gangel just said that Pompeo saying that the cameras afterwards, no smile saying you guys have to own up with this. And if not, this could cost, you know, him his title.

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I'm glad that the secretary of state was tougher in private than he was in public. But you know what is said and done in public also matters a lot. And that was just one of the most revolting pictures I've ever seen, Mike Pompeo sitting there, shaking hands, grinning and laughing with MBS as these horrifying details are coming to light about what these goons who are working for MBS did to Jamal Khashoggi.

And it's not just -- it's not just Mike Pompeo. It's also President Trump and maybe he's being tougher behind closed doors. But I tend to think that what he's saying in public is also probably what he's saying in private, which is that we have to give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, we have to wait for the Saudis to get to the bottom of this.

I mean here's the reality, Don. If you're waiting for the Saudis to get to the bottom of this case, you might as well be waiting for O.J. to find the real killers, OK? There is zero chance that the Saudi government run by MBS is going to implicate MBS in the murder and horrifying torture of Jamal Khashoggi. It is simply not going to happen.

And if you're going to say we're going to rely on whatever the Saudis come up with, it's going to be a whitewash. You have to have an international inquiry to get to the bottom of this, and that is what the president should be demanding instead of trying to concoct a cover story with the Saudis for this horrifying conduct.

LEMON: Asha, I want to get your response to that, because Nicholas is shaking his head in agreement with what Max said. And every single national affairs expert that I have spoken to is just saying that this is the scenarios that they're putting out there, it's just implausible.

ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes. I mean the more evidence that comes out, the associations of the suspected assassins with the crown prince, it does become implausible, and it's disturbing that the president is willing to give the benefit of the doubt repeatedly to these regimes.

We have the rogue killers, you know, from Saudi Arabia. We have the 400-pound guy in the basement who is hacking, not Russia. You know, which is also inconsistent with the fact that he has no problem, you know, finding conspiracies within his own intelligence community or wanting to lock up his own opponents with no due process.

So there's something else going on here that is not about the best interest of the United States, our principles, and what we need to be doing on the world stage in the face of these kinds of atrocities.

LEMON: Yes. So, listen, "The New York Times" is reporting tonight, Asha, that U.S. spy agencies are increasingly convinced that the Saudi prince's ties to Khashoggi's death. They don't have direct evidence or know if MBS wanted Khashoggi captured or killed.

RANGAPPA: Right. So, one thing to understand here is that, you know, contrary to what people often believe, even embassies and consulates have to operate under the laws of the host country. These are treaty obligations.

So right now, it's Turkey that has the primary jurisdiction over investigating this. The U.S., although we have an interest in this investigation because this is a legal resident, a U.S. person legally speaking, you know, we don't have -- the FBI, for example, can't just barge in and do any kind of investigation without some kind of request for permission by the host country.

So it's really Turkey that's leading this investigation, and they will determine how to proceed and when and how to release any evidence that they've gathered.

[22:25:01] So I think the U.S. intelligence community is in many ways -- they're probably, you know, in communication, but also receive -- on the receiving end of that investigation at this point.

LEMON: Nick, I want to talk to you about "The Washington Post" reporting that the Trump administration and that the Saudi royal family, that they're searching for an explanation for the death of Khashoggi, one that is going to avoid implicating MBS in this. That's according to analysts and officials that they've spoken to. I mean what is this all about? Do they just want a fall guy so they don't have to deal with it? Like what's this about?

KRISTOF: I think they want a fall guy. I think there is some risk that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and Turkey will find a fall guy who they can pin this on, and that would be convenient for all three countries. It would be a way of saving MBS from what I think is his -- I think most people think it's responsibility approving this. It's very hard to imagine this happened without his approval.

Turkey, it would be a way of defusing the dispute between Turkey and Saudi Arabia. It would be a way of the U.S. keeping its bet on MBS, and so there is some risk that the three of these will agree on some weak and unconvincing explanation from MBS blaming it on somebody else.

And you know, the truth is that U.S. and Turkish intelligence have a close relationship. We wanted to get to the bottom of this. We would ask Turkey for the tapes that they have. And we would listen to them, and I think that would dispose of it pretty quickly, or we would, as Max said, we would have an international investigation, you know, led by the U.N. as happened with the Harare killing a few years ago, for example.

But instead, we're asking -- we're acting as if we have no leverage. President Trump seems to think that Saudi Arabia has leverage over us. Saudi Arabia, they can't even beat the Houthi rebels in Yemen. They completely depend on us for their security. We have the leverage, and we're not using it.

LEMON: Much more to talk about. Everyone, stick around. We're going to continue this conversation on the other side here. "The Washington Post" publishing Jamal Khashoggi's final column tonight where he stresses the need for a free press in the Middle East.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:30:01] LEMON: A source tells CNN that Mike Pompeo told the Saudi Prince that he needs to own the Khashoggi disappearance and that the time is short. He needs to get his investigation done quickly because global pressure for answers is growing.

Back with me now, Nick Kristof, Max Boot, and Asha Rangappa. Really this is going to come down, Max, to this tape that Turkey says that they have. And they should release it, right?

BOOT: Well, I mean it does sound like the Turks have the smoking gun. But I suspect they're going to use it strategically. I mean I thought it was pretty interesting that the details from the tape that emerged today only occurred a day after Mike Pompeo was in Riyadh, and looking like he was being very buddy-buddy with Mohammed bin Salman.

And I suspect the Turks didn't like that. And so they put this out there basically to encourage the U.S. to be tougher. And I think the U.S. actually needs to be tougher. I mean I think an important point here, Don, that gets lost, is, you know, people tend to think that MBS is Saudi Arabia. But the reality is he only became Crown Prince last year.

Saudi Arabia has been around for decades and decades without MBS as the Crown Prince. I mean there are a lot of people who are saying well, we can't afford to sacrifice our interests with Saudi Arabia. And I agree. We do have interests with Saudi Arabia. Nobody is saying that we should go to war with the Saudis. Nobody is saying that we should entirely cut them off.

But we need to hold these killers responsible. And it seems like, from the evidence that we have, the number one person who needs to be held responsible is MBS, who has also been very reckless. He has done a lot of things, including kidnapping the prime minister of Lebanon, which was completely out of bounds. So he's done a few good things, including letting women drive.

So hopefully Saudi Arabia can keep the reforms going. But MBS has not shown that he has the wisdom and the maturity to steer this country.

LEMON: Yeah. As I mentioned before the break, Nick, that Jamal Khashoggi had filed his last report, and they were going to release it. But they didn't because they thought he was going to come back, right? And here's what he wrote, all right, about free press in the Middle East. This is part of it. He said, my dear friend, the prominent Saudi writer Saleh al-Shehi wrote one of the most famous columns ever published in the Saudi press.

He unfortunately is now serving an unwarranted five year prison sentence for supposed comments contrary to the Saudi establishment. The Egyptian government's seizure of the entire print run of a newspaper, Al-Masry Al-Youm, did not enrage or provoke a reaction from colleagues. These actions no longer carry the consequence of a backlash from the international community.

Instead, these actions may trigger condemnation quickly followed by silence. Five-year prison sentence pales in comparison to what we're hearing about Khashoggi, and the seizure of a newspaper triggering condemnation.

KRISTOF: Yeah. I've known Jamal 15 years. And I could hear his voice in that. This is what he cared deeply about, about expanding space for free expression in the Arab world. And that got him killed. It's too late for us to help Jamal. It's not too late for us to exercise some of that leverage we do have to help other people who are in prison.

Raif Badawi, a blogger who is facing a thousand lashes and 10 years imprisonment, (Inaudible), who was a passionate supporter of women's rights in Saudi Arabia, who is in prison as well. And the Saudis essentially forced a divorce there. You know the one thing we can take from Jamal's column is that a prince who orders executions and torture should not be invited to state dinners, but should have to pay some consequences to support international norms.

And we can certainly encourage the Saudis to find a new Crown Prince who doesn't behave like that.

LEMON: Asha, I want to get your response to that last column, because in it, he says the Arab world needs a modern version of the old transnational media so citizens can be informed about global events. And he's talking about -- that's the only way to transform societies. Your response to the column, and do you think he's right and that that will ever happen?

RANGAPPA: Well, I think that this goes to why he is so important for the U.S. to stand behind. As I mentioned before, there are three principles here that we need to put above economics or money or these other things. One is that he's a U.S. person. I know there's been a distinction that he's not a U.S. citizen. From a legal perspective, that doesn't matter.

[22:35:01] Remember that the First Lady was a legal resident before she became a citizen. So were -- you know Donald Trump's -- one of his other wives and his in-laws. So they're still deserving of protection. Number two, this is about international norms, diplomatic norms. It's an affront to international law. And it is something that all nations should be, you know, angered about that this would happen in a country.

And the last is that he was a journalist, and that he represents one of our most cherished freedoms. And the United States, of all countries, should be the one standing up for him and what he believed in and the things that you just expressed that you read. And I think that is really what is -- what the world is looking at here. And it would be good for the President to step forward, step up, especially given his past rhetoric of denigrating that principle here in the United States.

LEMON: Thank you, everyone. I appreciate your time. We'll stay on this story. Well, a new interview that's out with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. And in it, he defends Robert Mueller's investigation. I am going to ask John Dean why Rosenstein is speaking out now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00] LEMON: The Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, defending Robert Mueller's Russia investigation, telling "The Wall Street Journal" it's both appropriate and independent. Let's talk about it now with John Dean, best person to talk about it. Thank you, sir. Good evening to you.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good evening, Don.

LEMON: The Attorney General, as I said, he's defending this investigation. Here's what he's saying. People are entitled to be frustrated. I can accept that. But at the end of the day, the public will have confidence that the cases we brought were warranted by the evidence, and that it was an appropriate use of resources. Why is he doing this interview now?

DEAN: Well, I suspect he's been asked repeatedly to do it. He seems to be on a little bit stronger footing with the President since he had his Air Force One appointment with the President. You know -- and the President hasn't been attacking him. That gives him a little space. And I suspect he explained to the President how the department is supposed to work. And this is the way they would work, independently and appropriately.

LEMON: Is he reassuring the public, you think, or sending a message or a combination?

DEAN: I think it's all of the above. I think he is an absolute straight shooter, and he recognizes that he serves at the pleasure of the President, that he's not going to compromise the Department of Justice. He's going to try to keep it as independent as he possibly can. And he is, in a sense, the block between Trump and the prosecutor. So he assures the prosecutor he's doing the right thing too.

LEMON: OK. So this stood out to me. And I wonder if it did to you, because he says the cases are warranted by the evidence. Does it sound to you like he's got some hard evidence of crimes yet to come maybe?

DEAN: Well, the context I read in the article is that he was referring to -- he gave an example of the Russian charges that they had made against various intelligence agents where they had directly prosecuted them. And they were the type of case that he thought was absolutely appropriate to bring that kind of prosecution. He could be -- you could read that, though, Don, as you are that he's saying that indeed they're not going to act unless they have really strong evidence. And so if we act, Mr. President, you'll know there's good evidence.

LEMON: I want to talk about Michael Cohen now, John, because his former attorney, we're learning met for hours today with prosecutors investigating the President's businesses and charity, right? That is in addition to having multiple meetings with Special Counsel Robert Mueller. Should the President be worried? How worried should he be?

DEAN: Well, you know, I don't know what Michael Cohen knows. I know that he obviously has a lot of proximity to the President for a lot of years. And I am sure that if anything went astray, given some of the earlier conversations we know he had with people, that he would be aware of it. So I would think the President -- that's one of the reasons Trump is trying to get himself separate from and away from Michael Cohen. He's got him down to being just a PR guy now.

LEMON: Yeah.

DEAN: Pretty soon he'll be in charge of the coffee.

LEMON: Yeah. Just put the quote up. He said that, you know, oh, absolutely he's lying, in talking about paying off Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, and Michael Cohen was a PR person who did small legal work, very small legal work, and what he did was very sad when you look. By the way, he was in trouble not for what he did for me. He was in trouble for what he did for himself. All right, well, that speaks for itself there.

We get what he's doing there. It's deflecting. But let's talk about Paul Manafort now, because our Evan Perez is reporting that Paul Manafort and his lawyers have visited Mueller's office at least nine times, John, in the last four weeks. How do you read that?

DEAN: Well, first of all, it's some really good reporting by Evan on this along with Kaitlan. They -- it's a good report online on the CNN site, and it does delve into the fact that indeed Manafort's car that brings him in from the prison in Alexandria has been spotted nine times. His lawyers have been spotted in the lobby, and they spent about five or six hours every time they go in there.

So this is a lot of cooperation by Manafort. This indeed would give them a lot to work with. And you know, I think Trump should be worried about that too.

LEMON: Yeah. John Dean, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

DEAN: Thank you, Don.

[22:44:58] LEMON: The Washington Post reporting that a record number of families are crossing the border. And the President wants Republicans to use the issue to win big in the midterms. Julian Castro reacts to that and more. That's next.

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LEMON: With the midterms less than three weeks away, immigration looks to be the hot button issue that President Trump and his party will use to fire up the base.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Democrats won't vote for the military. They don't like the military. They don't like law enforcement. They don't like borders. You see what's happening with the border where people are coming up in caravans. And we have to top them, even though the laws are terrible.

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[22:49:57] LEMON: Here to discuss is Julian Castro. He was HUD Secretary under President Obama. And his new book is "An Unlikely Journey: Waking Up from My American Dream.

That's quite a fascinating title. Thank you so much for joining us here. It's good to have you. So you heard from the -- this is a scare tactic, right? This is a President -- this immigration is a scare tactic he's using to rev up his supporters before the midterms. JULIAN CASTRO (D), MAYOR, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS: Oh, absolutely. I mean

he's done that, you know, to rev up his campaign from the very first day that he announced. I mean this has been his bread and butter issue. And it's no surprise that he's going back to it. You know my hope is that we have candidates out there across the country that is pushing back on this.

And, you know, speaking to the facts that the vast majority of immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are law-abiding while they're in here in the country. In fact, the rate of crime for those immigrants is better than for those of us who are U.S. citizens.

LEMON: It's smaller than U.S. foreign...

CASTRO: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, those are facts. As people have pointed out, there's a difference between facts and emotion. And this is a very emotional issue.

LEMON: You know the echo chamber, that's in conservative media, the President's allies in conservative media. They're amplifying the President's message. This is Laura Ingraham on Fox News, Fox News Host. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your views on immigration will have zero impact and zero influence on a House dominated by Democrats who want to replace you, the American voters, with newly amnestied citizens, and an ever increasing number of chain migrants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Newly amnestied citizens. So what do you think? Will it work?

CASTRO: You know, look, there's no question that this is a powerful issue. I think we're at a point, though, where so many Americans are fed up with the erratic leadership, the terrible leadership of Donald Trump, and this Congress that won't hold him accountable. And I think enough folks also understand that we can have both good border security and also humanely address the 11 million folks who are here who are undocumented.

And, you know, the fact is that we have more personnel. We have more security measures. We're using more technology. We're apprehending -- the apprehensions for the folks coming over are lower than they have been in a long time. So, you know, border security is being addressed. Now, we need to address the fact that we have 11 million people here who are undocumented, and many of whom ought to be able to earn citizenship if they haven't committed a serious felony.

LEMON: Uh-huh. I want to talk about the midterms now, because CNN's Harry Enten did some digging on Latino voter turnout. And it's been said that, you know, that this may be a weak point when it comes to the Democrats, when it comes to your party. He looked at five districts currently controlled by Republicans with at least 50 percent of the voting population is Latino, and found that Democrats are underperforming in all of them. Democrats need Latino turnout to win. Why aren't they energized, do you think?

CASTRO: You know, Don, that is -- that's like the $64,000 question. I think there's some -- there are issues around fear, you know, because this President has clearly tried to scare a lot of folks in the Latino community into being silent into not participating. But you also need candidates and parties that are speaking to the concerns of the Latino community.

And sometimes there's been a gap. I do think that on the Democratic side we have a lot of those good candidates. I am convinced, though, that we're not going to see a significant improvement in Latino registration and turnout until there is a massive and sustained effort that isn't just the few months before an election, but is constant to register and to turn them out.

LEMON: It's got to be frustrating because one is the 23rd, and that's where San Antonio, you used to be mayor, right? So that's got to be frustrating.

CASTRO: Yeah. It touches part of San Antonio.

LEMON: Yeah. So let's talk about your new book coming out, "An Unlikely Journey: Waking Up From My American Dream." Does the American dream mean something different now than it has to previous generations, do you think?

CASTRO: Well, I think each generation, you know, defines it in its own way.

LEMON: Why do you say waking up from?

CASTRO: Because, you know, my -- the book tells the story of my family, starting with my grandmother that came from Mexico when she was seven years old with her younger sister. Her parents had died. And each generation of my family, like a lot of other families, found out that it wasn't just enough to work hard yourself or for your family to work hard. You needed to press our country, our society to get better.

My mother was active in the Mexican-American civil rights movement. She was a Chicano activist. My brother and I went into public service so that we could help make opportunity more possible for folks coming behind us. And I hope for young people, for this generation, that they will continue the kind of activism that we've seen with these march for our lives activists and others to try and keep pushing back against leadership, especially in the White House, that is absolutely determined to take us backward.

[22:55:14] LEMON: You said that you're likely to run. Are you going to run?

CASTRO: I am going to make a decision after November. There are two things that I still need to do. One of them is personal, you know? Of course, my family and I have talked about the idea of me running. But my wife, Erica and I, have not had the long, drawn out, everything on the table conversation that we need to have as a family.

And then secondly, I am spending the time between now and November campaigning for folks who are actually on the ballot on November 6th, because that's the most important thing. And I am getting a sense of where the country is at. I also want to see what happens in the midterms, because I am convinced that these midterm elections do set a mood for the next couple of years in the country.

LEMON: We shall see. You're going to make a decision. Come on to this show and make that announcement. We would like to have you. Thank you, Julian Castro. Again, the book is "An Unlikely Journey: Waking Up From My American Dream." Good luck. We'll see you soon.

New details about what went on behind closed doors of Secretary Pompeo's meeting with the Saudi Crown Prince. Plus, we're following the money, the millions of dollars Donald Trump has made from Saudi Arabia.

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