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Don Lemon Tonight
Saudi Confirms Khashoggi's Death; Trump Uses Border Crossers Issue as Midterm Talking Points; From a Defender to a Defector of Trump; Paul Manafort Appeared in Court While in Wheelchair. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired October 19, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Crazy and sad days when the lessons that we teach our kids, don't be a bully, strength isn't knocking down, it's lifting up. Now those lessons must also be directed at our president.
Thank you for watching. Have a great weekend. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: All of this in a week when we're talking about a journalist reportedly dismembered and killed and now confirmed killed.
CUOMO: What does it make you think about what the president really believes about violence in those situations? We only know what you show in this life. If you cared so much about it, if you were sensitized in the moment -- you know the expression too soon? It's too soon to make fun of a guy who beats up a journalist.
LEMON: It's not even too soon. Why would you ever do that? And too soon, he hadn't even figured out -- we hadn't even figured out exactly what happened with Khashoggi, and he's still, you know, doing this. But you never want to do that. It's not even too soon, Chris.
Listen, the president of the United States is held to -- should be held to a different standard than just about everyone else. Last week he said, when people were criticizing him for saying that he was having -- fell in love with Kim Jong-un, and he said it was a figure of speech. People knew what he was talking about.
And Eric Holder said the same thing about. He goes, I didn't really mean physically kick them. It was a figure of speech. So they seem to make an exception for the president when they want him to get away with this awful behavior, but they don't do it to anybody else, Democrat or Republican, mostly Democrats. And so the hypocrisy is just really beyond belief here.
The president of the United States should not be condoning violence in any way and encouraging people to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: That's all he knows how to do. That's all he likes to do. And the crowd loves it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Look, you saw Corey Lewandowski. Smart guy.
LEMON: Smart guy.
CUOMO: Savvy guy. Could not say the words Trump was wrong.
LEMON: What does that say about Corey Lewandowski?
CUOMO: It says he knows where his bread's buttered is what it shows.
LEMON: There you go. That -- there you go. That is the crux of all of it. OK. Thank you for the help with the name. I'm expecting a donation to the Southampton animal shelter.
LEMON: We will be watching the thread. If anybody comes close, and even if they don't, you tell me who gets closest, we'll make a donation.
LEMON: It is a very worthy cause.
CUOMO: A hundred percent. Two rescues. God bless you, Don Lemon.
LEMON: Thank you. You have a great weekend, my friend. Be safe out there on the water. It's probably the last weekend you'll be able to go out.
CUOMO: No, no, no.
LEMON: No?
CUOMO: Long season to go, son. Long season to go.
LEMON: All right. See you, sir.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
The Saudis admitting tonight what everybody knew had to be true already. Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi is dead. But after more than two weeks of stonewalling, now the latest cover story in a long line of them takes over.
Saudi state TV claiming against every bit of credible evidence that Khashoggi got into a fist fight or brawl that ended in his death. Just another unbelievable cover story. So, let's lay this out.
So, a lone journalist at the embassy to get paperwork for his upcoming marriage. His fiance waiting outside. Immediately gets into a fight, a brawl, with multiple Saudis, most of whom are reported to have links to the kingdom security services.
One of them, a forensics expert, able to dissect a body in seven minutes. Reportedly carrying a bone saw and they don't even attempt to explain what happened to Khashoggi's body? Do you believe that story? Do you believe that story? The president says he does.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I do. I do. I mean it's -- again, it's early. We haven't finished our review or investigation, but it's -- I think it's a very important first step.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Meanwhile, the Saudis are still playing for time, announcing it will take them another month to put together a report on exactly what they claim happened. And guess who is heading up the committee charged with putting together that report? That's right. Crown prince Mohammed bin Salman. Yes, the very same crown prince who U.S. officials have told CNN had to have known about the operation that ended in Khashoggi's death.
Fox guarding the henhouse, anybody?
But President Trump seems to think the Saudis are on the right track. This is a president who earlier this week claimed that Khashoggi could have been the victim of so-called rogue killers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Rogue killers who somehow got inside the heavily guarded Saudi consulate. And when nobody bought that, double down on his defense of the Saudis, saying, "here we go again with, you know, you're guilty until proven innocent."
[22:05:03] Defending them with the same words he used to defend Justice Brett Kavanaugh against sexual assault allegations. Not a good look.
But with anger and outrage growing, this president is all about the campaign trail, hitting the road for four rallies in the next five days and testing out his latest talking points with the midterms less than three weeks away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Remember it's going to be an election of the caravan. You know what I'm talking about.
As you know, I'm willing to send the military to defend our southern border if necessary.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: All caused because of the illegal immigration onslaught brought by the Democrats because they refuse to acknowledge or to change the laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So here's a fact check. As I mentioned last night, The Posse Comitatus Act, forbids using the military for civilian law enforcement duties outside of military bases. The president also playing the part of a human bumper sticker with this slogan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Democrats produce mobs. Republicans produce jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So wait a minute. Democrats produce mobs? Remember when the president said this last night about Greg Gianforte. Gianforte, the Montana congressman who as a candidate body slammed a reporter just for asking a question about health care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Any guy that can do a body slam, he's my kind of--
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: He's my guy. I shouldn't say this because -- there's nothing to be embarrassed about. So I was in Rome with a lot of the leaders from other countries talking about all sorts of things, and I heard about it. And we endorsed Greg very early.
But I had heard that he body slammed a reporter. And I said, this is terrible, terrible. He's going to lose the election. Then I said, well, wait a minute. I know Montana pretty well. I think it might help him, and it did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mob. Mob. And he doubled down today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you regret bringing up last night at your rally the assault on a reporter by a congressman?
TRUMP: No, no, no. That was a tremendous success last night in Montana, and Greg is a tremendous person, and he's a tough cookie. And I'll stay with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: For this president, it's all about winning. Winning at all costs. And now he is pulling out all the stops just 18 days away from the midterms. The vote that could decide the fate of his presidency.
Max Boot is here. Also, April Ryan and Olivia Nuzzi. Good evening to all of you. Max, first with you. The Saudis said
Khashoggi left the consulate alive. It took them over two weeks to come up with their new story that he died in a fist fight. Why should anybody, especially the president -- why should they believe this?
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It's utterly baffling, Don. I mean as Jamal's editor at "The Washington Post" Karen Attiah said tonight, this is utter bullshit. I mean, it is just unbelievable this notion that Jamal Khashoggi, a 59-year-old journalist, got into a fight with 15 Saudi goons and somehow wound up getting dismembered.
LEMON: Yes.
BOOT: I mean this is just so unbelievable. The Saudis are truly insulting our intelligence by expecting us to believe that. But Donald Trump is happy to collaborate in this cover-up.
LEMON: So, he goes in, 59, and gets into a fight, right? Then they cut up his body. I mean why? If you get into a fight, if he goes in and starts a fight, it's presumably would be his fault. Then why would they cut his body up?
BOOT: It doesn't make any sense.
LEMON: It makes absolutely no sense.
(CROSSTALK)
BOOT: Who would start a fight with 15 guys. Maybe the rock, but not some 59-year-old journalist, OK? It makes zero sense.
LEMON: Yes. So, President Trump he doesn't seem concerned that the crown prince is leading this investigation. As I said, the fox in the henhouse, right. He's leading the investigation. But isn't -- the central question is what did this -- what did the royal family know, right? And especially -- and this is supposed to be a thorough investigation. Obviously, it's not.
BOOT: Well, the people who are implicated in this heinous murder are all people very close to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, MBS. I mean, it just strains credulity to imagine. He did not know and in fact ordered this operation. In fact, there are leaks coming from U.S. intelligence to suggest that he did in fact order this operation. The leaks talk about a kidnapping operation, so it's unclear whether he also ordered the murder.
[22:10:00] But you know, the fact that you had this 15-man team, the fact that you had a pathologist with a bone saw, I mean who comes to a fight with a bone saw? That indicates to you that this was fairly nefarious intent here, and this attempt to whitewash the crown prince's involvement is just ridiculous.
It's absurd, and it's truly unbelievable that, you know, Donald Trump is somebody who does not believe that Barack Obama was born in this country, but he believes this cock and bull Saudi story? I mean, can you explain that? LEMON: I can't. Olivia, I'm not sure if you can explain it. But
seriously, I think the real question is who on earth would expect anybody to believe this story? It sounds like a guy sitting around going, yes, I know what we'll say. Why don't we say this? You think we can say this? How about that? It just makes absolutely no sense.
OLIVIA NUZZI, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: It's a ridiculous story, and no sane person would believe it. And I don't know that I believe the president believes it either. I think that Donald Trump is just not interested in classic American values like promoting democracy or human rights. He does not care about the free press. He does not care if journalists are injured or murdered because of the work that they do.
And I think that what he -- he is kind of using, saying that he believes the story as a way to avoid having to explain why he just doesn't care.
LEMON: Right, yes.
NUZZI: And why he cares more about U.S. businesses and their relations with the government there and why he cares more about them helping him achieve his objectives in the region than he cares about--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Well, let me ask you a more -- let me ask you a more specific question about that because the president, you know, said responding to Khashoggi's death is not the simplest situation. That was a quote from him. Is he basically saying that torture and murder, that it's OK as long as you buy U.S. military equipment?
NUZZI: It seems like he is for a change being semi-transparent and just saying that it's complicated to deal with a situation like this because he seems to be weighing whether or not it's worth doing the right thing, or it's better for him to do what he wants to do, which is to maintain the relationships that we have to benefit his own objectives and U.S. business interests.
And I think it's pretty shameful that we have a president out there who is appearing this gullible, a. I think that's embarrassing on the world stage. But, b, who is openly saying that you have to weigh something like this. It's not clear that you should just do the right thing, that you should just advocate for what is obviously the right thing to do here.
LEMON: Yes.
NUZZI: I think it's one of the worst moments in his presidency so far.
LEMON: April, I can see you want to get in. But let me ask -- let me start by asking you this question because you in. Because this is Senator Lindsey Graham, OK, and he tweeted this. He said, "To say I am skeptical of the new Saudi narrative about Mr. Khashoggi is an understatement." So, who do you think the president is going to side with? Will he side with Republican lawmakers like Graham or the Saudis?
APRIL RYAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: The president is going to side with his own interests. Don, right now we're watching this president and those who are supporting him support what he's doing.
I mean, from the onset, the president never really took this situation as seriously as other presidents would have. You know, this president in the midst of all of this called Stormy Daniels a horse face. The president also, you know, at the very beginning said that Jamal Khashoggi was not an American.
He talked about rogue persons who came, and he never really took this seriously. So, and the question now begs, is this president involved with the Saudis to a point with his business dealings that it's affecting his presidential behavior and his attitude and his moves.
LEMON: April--
RYAN: And moves. So it's -- yes?
LEMON: So you're around the White House, right? That's your beat. So what is the read? What is the feel there? Are the people around him going, we don't know? Are they standing behind the story? How do they feel about these different tales being spun about what's happened to him?
RYAN: They're spinning their own tales, number one, as well. Trying to keep us -- keep us informed enough to pacify us. But this as it goes on and as we're hearing information from the Saudis and from other places, you know, they're trying to galvanize and make themselves look like they are serious about this.
But we have to remember -- and the president proved this at this rally. He does not like the press, period.
[22:14:56] And if he did -- if he did at any moment have a bit of compassion about this issue, he would stand and ask for and demand answers. He is not -- I mean in the Oval Office when he's talking to reporters, he's laughing and joking.
This is a moment of seriousness where the world is watching. The world community put more pressure on the Saudis than we did to get answers. So there is a lack of concern from a journalist who has covered White Houses for 21 years in my opinion about this situation.
LEMON: Well, you mentioned--
(CROSSTALK)
NUZZI: Don--
LEMON: Hold on, Olivia, because I got to get to the break. I'll let you respond on the other side. But you mentioned the rally, so I want to talk about the rallies. You think that at this language is heated at a boiling point now, wait. It's getting revved up. The president at a rally tonight, the message and how far will he go to win the midterms. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump is out on the campaign trail tonight. He's doing four rallies in the next five days.
Max Boot is back. He is the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." April Ryan, she is the author of "Under Fire: Reporting from the Front Lines of the Trump White House," and Washington correspondent for New York magazine, Olivia Nuzzi who is the author of a fantastic article last week from inside the Oval Office. I encourage all of you to read it.
So, finish up our last point and then I want to move on. Go on, what did you want to say, Olivia?
[22:19:57] NUZZI: Well, what I wanted to say was that April was talking about some of the things that the president hasn't done to respond adequately or even just not disastrously to this tragedy and to this outrageous story.
But it's not just that he hasn't responded adequately. He hasn't done the bare minimum of not coming out and supporting violence an American journalist, or against any journalist onstage at a rally.
I mean, that's the bare minimum, you would think. Even just from a cynical, political optics perspective, I think ordinarily in politics here, you would be advised not to do something like that.
Whether or not there was a national, an international story like this unfurling. But in a climate like this, as the president of the United States, to not be able to just restrain yourself on a topic like that as the world absorbs the details as they emerge about this gruesome murder, it just -- it strikes me as just a real low point in this presidency.
And sometimes I think we're so up close to these things that it's hard to see how it's just simply outrageous. And I think it's good to kind of take a step back and just look at how -- how uncomplicated it is, how despicable this is.
LEMON: I think -- I think you're right about that. You know, I took time off a couple weeks ago and I said that when I came back, if you stand back and look at this, it is, again, my favorite term, the theater of the absurd.
(CROSSTALK)
NUZZI: And it's not complicated.
LEMON: Every time a headline would -- you look at it, and you say, what has our country come to? And, you know, she mentioned the rallies when she's talking about reporting the rallies. The president is going to be out there on the campaign trail. I think he's got up until the midterms, Max, and he has four rallies in five days coming up. Is this what Republicans need in the days before the midterms? BOOT: Well, they obviously think that Trump going out there in red
states is going to pump up the base. But I mean, it's interesting to me, Don, the way that Trump is running. They've totally given up running on the tax cut. They've given up running on the economy because they've seen the polls and they know by about a two to one margin, the people thinks that the tax cut is benefiting the rich and corporations rather than the middle class.
So instead of running on the economy, which Trump rise above all the time, they are essentially running on the culture war. And you know, attacking reporters, it's not a bug. It's a feature. That is how Trump is running because he wants to elicit this passion from his base against the enemy of the people, which is what he calls the news media.
And now he's resurrecting this caravan, the same thing he did back in April when you had this bedraggled group of Latin American refugees heading to the American border, and Donald Trump makes it seem like the red army, that the barbarian hoards are at the gates, about to invade us.
He's doing it again because there's another caravan, and he's, you know, screaming hysterically about these poor refugees. He doesn't care about, you know, a reporter getting murdered and dismembered, but he cares about these poor refugees who are heading towards our border, who are no threat whatsoever to us. But this is the culture war that the Republicans are running on to generate base enthusiasm in lieu of anybody being enthusiastic about the tax cut.
LEMON: Yes. Look up the definition of the word chicanery and you'll know what we're talking about here. April, you know, Trump is repeating the tag line that Democrats create mobs. Republicans create jobs. He's trying to remind voters of Justice Kavanaugh's bitter confirmation battle. The poll are showing that Kavanaugh increased Republicans enthusiasm. He did do that. Is that the GOP's best bet right now?
RYAN: Well, you know, the GOP's best bet is to do things to rally the base, and this president understands the stakes are very high.
Don, he himself believes -- and leading into these few days before the November midterm elections, he believes that the House could be taken by the Dems, and he doesn't want that because if that does happen, they will try to do impeachment.
But if the Senate stays Republican, there will not be removal if there is impeachment. But you have to remember the way that the president rallies his base is to divide and to find a common enemy. For Republicans, for his base, Democrats, the mob. Not we, the people, who are still forming a more perfect union as we're going through growing pains. He's calling them the mob.
And the Democrats that are doing this are patriotic because they are taking part in a democracy. This is what it used to be before the Trump administration. But this is how he galvanizes his base. Finding a common enemy. And, you know, Malcolm X said this, and I'm going to use this--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: By any means necessary.
RYAN: By any means necessary. By any means necessary, a win.
LEMON: Yes. Olivia, I want to play this comment from the president tonight when he was asked about the caravan that he claims is hardened criminals coming into the United States. Let's listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What evidence do you have that these are hardened criminals that are coming to the United States?
[22:25:01] TRUMP: Please. Please, don't be a baby, OK? Take a look, OK? Just take a look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What's with this baby line with the president? Remember he used that several times during the 60 Minutes interview.
NUZZI: Yes, he's used it over the years with some regularity. Certainly, more frequently than past presidents which I think that was probably an average of zero. He talks in a very childlike way a lot of the time, and it is a strange thing. But I would -- the context here makes it even worse.
You know, he seems to have no interest whatsoever in why people might be part of this caravan, why people might be fleeing where they are from. It seems like it's something that he just has -- he has either no capacity to understand or just no desire to attempt to understand.
And the idea that we might have some interest in being at least empathetic about this issue, if not actively seeking to provide humanitarian aid or help in some way, but just to not antagonize it further, that does not seem to cross his mind.
And it's just sort of across the board in this administration, when it comes to issues dealing with people not in this country who may need our help, whether that's a journalist being murdered abroad or it's refugees or migrants, he just doesn't -- he doesn't seem to care.
LEMON: And just -- Max, it's surprising to me because doesn't he whine and complain more than anyone when he talks about don't be a baby. He's always a victim.
BOOT: It's a classic case of projection. It's like no puppet, you're the puppet. I mean, this is his -- I mean, he gets called a baby all the time, so now he throws that charge out at others.
LEMON: Yes.
BOOT: But I mean, he acts in this very petulant fashion and he throws around these erroneous, you know, alternative facts all the time. I mean, this is just not the dignified way that you expect a president of the United States to conduct himself.
LEMON: Max, Olivia, April, I want you guys to stick around. The president's former personal lawyer taking to the campaign trail against his old boss. Michael Cohen isn't the only member of the president's inner circle to turn on him. We'll talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00] LEMON: The president is trying to rally his base with the midterms just 18 days away, 18 days. His former fixer and keeper of secrets, Michael Cohen, has his own get out the vote effort.
Back with me now, Max Boot, April Ryan, and Olivia Nuzzi. So, this one this is so juicy, I had to keep you guys around for this. So, I want to get to the president's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, and he's officially switched to be a registered Democrat. M.J. Lee caught up with him today. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: Listen, here's my recommendation. Grab your family. Grab your friends. Grab your neighbors. Get to the poll because if not, you're going to have another two or another six years of this craziness. So, make sure you vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Max, he was a Democrat. He switched to be with the RNC. Now he switched back to be a Democrat. Do you think Democrats want Michael Cohen campaigning for them?
BOOT: No, I don't think you want Michael Cohen. I don't think you want Michael Avenatti. I don't think these are the people you want to put front and center against the president.
The key point with Michael Cohen is not whatever is coming out of his mouth right now. The key point is what came out of his mouth in a courtroom in August, where he pleaded guilty to eight felony charges.
This is the president's lawyer pleading guilty to eight felonies, and he implicated the president in two of those felonies in breaking federal campaign finance laws to pay off Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, his girlfriends. We forget that. Everything moves so fast. Every story has a shelf life of about 24 hours these days. But we should not get used to the fact -- and this picks up on a point Olivia was making -- do not accept this as the new normal.
We have a president who has been credibly accused of conspiring to violate federal law. I mean, there are certainly other instances of unethical and possibly illegal conduct by the president, but this is something that was actually admitted by his own lawyer in court. I mean imagine what Republicans would be saying if this were Hillary Clinton's lawyer who had admitted this and implicated Hillary Clinton. LEMON: But don't you think a lot of this is by design to just keep
stirring up -- I almost said -- keep stirring stuff up. That was close. To keep stirring it up so that we lose focus, that people lose--
(CROSSTALK)
NUZZI: It's Friday, Don.
LEMON: I know, right.
BOOT: By Trump.
LEMON: Yes, by Trump.
BOOT: Yes, of course.
LEMON: And then go to the next story.
BOOT: Of course, that's his whole story.
LEMON: Yes.
BOOT: He says and does so many crazy and outrageous things that you lose perspective and you lose sight of what's truly important here.
LEMON: Yes.
BOOT: Like the fact he's been credibly accused in a federal courtroom of the violating the law. That is truly important.
LEMON: Why do so many people fall for the con? I mean, I can't believe it. I --Olivia--
NUZZI: Just general the con or a specific con in this case.
LEMON: No, it's all of it. I mean, there's so much of it. Listen to what Max and I were talking about. If you think about all the different stories, all of the just reprehensible things that Donald Trump has done over the last few years, even just the last few months. Why do people continue to fall for this con? It's just terrible.
NUZZI: I think it's -- people like a bad guy when he's on your side. And I think that this goes back to talking to supporters online the at the rallies during the campaign. And it's been pretty consistent from the early days of the campaign in 2015 to now.
When you talk to Trump supporters, what you hear a lot is that he is in on the joke. We know that he doesn't really mean this or that. We know he wasn't telling the truth about this or that. We know that it's all sort of a sham. His whole story, the way that he talks about it himself, his narrative, is bullshit, but it's helping us. He's on our side with his bullshit. And I think that--
(CROSSTALK)
BOOT: Except he isn't. He's on his own side.
NUZZI: But that's what they think.
LEMON: That's the whole point. He's not that he laughs at people like that.
NUZZI: But if we're trying to figure out why he has so many supporters, that is what they think. And I think that until they start to be hurt by his policies, we see a little bit betrayed already, and I think it may continue throughout this first term.
I think when people are when they are personally affected by his policies, they finally realize perhaps he's not on their side. I think it takes them having it hit home for them. I don't think it's something that they will -- they will absorb from television or from seeing it happen to others.
LEMON: I've got to get April in because the whole thing we started talking about Michael Cohen, which Michael Cohen revealed -- and you mentioned Michael Avenatti -- all of this through Stormy Daniels.
[22:35:03] APRIL RYAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
LEMON: Michael Cohen did reveal a lot about the president's hypocrisies and lies. But you know, when you think about all of this that everyone overlooks, that whole, like, you know, the moral majority or the moral authority or we believe in this and we believe in the bible, and we believe what God says and all that, that is really Olivia's word, B.S., because it's obvious--
(CROSSTALK)
NUZZI: Sorry.
LEMON: No, don't apologize. You said it. That -- because it's obvious you don't believe in it because you continue to allow someone who goes against every principle that you have espoused in the past, and you accept it. So it means that it never really did mean anything to you. April?
RYAN: Right. Yes. There is such hypocrisy all over the board right now as we look at the Republican Party, as we look at this administration, as we look at religious leaders, as we look at even Michael Cohen.
You know, Michael Cohen -- and let's look at that piece. Michael Cohen is right. Go vote. No matter who you vote for, go vote. But at the same time, he's a man scorned, you know. This was his friend, his boss, someone he did a lot of dirt for. And now he's turned on him.
So, and when it comes to the hypocrisy with a lot of these people who are supporting the president, and particularly in the religious circles, you know, they're turning their nose -- turning their head, holding their nose, and yet allowing some of the immoral activities to happen, or they're hearing about it but yet supporting. You know, a lot of this has to deal with the issue of the closeness to
power, the proximity to power, and also the fact that this is a president that bullies people. And, you know, as long as his poll numbers are up, they'll stay with him for the bullying. But once those numbers go down, and politics is personal. Once people start hurting, we'll see how close they are to him and how much they will take, how much they will allow the stink to stink.
LEMON: Hey. That's a good way of putting it. Hey, Olivia, just quickly because I'm over time here.
NUZZI: Without saying B.S.
LEMON: No. That big fight apparently in the White House between Bolton and the president was apparently there and Kelly, you had that great reporting last week. Is Kelly any closer to leaving? What are you hearing about that?
NUZZI: Well, I was told in the Oval Office that there's no chaos.
LEMON: OK.
NUZZI: So, I don't know how to process John Bolton's story in that context.
RYAN: Fake news.
NUZZI: I think -- I think that clearly there are a lot of tensions. John Kelly and John Bolton have disliked each other, have been fighting for months and months based on my reporting and the reporting from other reporters. I don't know if this is a sign that the president feels differently about him, but I think certainly it's not a sign of a healthy work environment.
(CROSSTALK)
BOOT: This is like the -- this is like the Iran/Iraq war. I don't know who to root for in this battle.
LEMON: Yes. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt -- remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy and playing golf. I mean, just on and on. I'm just saying.
BOOT: Yes.
LEMON: Yes.
BOOT: I think the president looks at the Ten Commandments as his personal to do list, to violate as many of them as possible.
LEMON: Thank you. We'll be right back.
RYAN: When is the last time--
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Trump's former campaign chairman Paul Manafort back in court today appearing in a prison jumpsuit and a wheelchair. His lawyer says he has a medical condition that's related to his confinement. The judge set his sentencing for February.
Let's discuss now with John Dean and Michael Beschloss. John, I'm always happy you're here. Michael, I've been courting you for a while, but you belong to someone else. But for the moment, we have you, and we're glad to have you here to talk about your new book.
(CROSSTALK)
MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, AUTHOR, PRESIDENTS OF WAR: My pleasure, Don. Glad to be with you.
LEMON: John -- absolutely. John, I'm going to start with you. In court today, Mueller's team said that they don't know when Manafort's cooperation would end. So even after meeting with the special counsel nine times in the last four weeks, it sounds like Manafort still -- he still has a lot more to say.
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it sounded that way in the response to the judge as to when the cooperation might end. And I suspect they don't know because they don't know if he's going to appear in any trials. They don't know if he's going to be before the grand jury additionally. There would be lots of factors that would make it unpredictable for them. But it's obviously the special counsel is going forward full steam.
LEMON: Yes. So, John, Manafort could be sentenced to over a decade in prison, but given that he's met with Mueller's team so much, do you think it's likely he's going to receive a reduced sentence?
DEAN: Well, his first sentence is coming from the Virginia judge. His plea deal with the D.C. judge, district of Columbia judge, has a 10- year max on it. There's no max on this one, and Judge Ellis is known as a pretty tough sentencer.
But I think that he is very aware of the cooperation. He made the point in court today that indeed he would consider the cooperation even if it occurred after the sentencing. They could revisit the whole issue. So, yes, I think it will impact the degree of cooperation he gives will give the judge some renewed thinking on it.
LEMON: Michael, you pointed this out today on Twitter. Forty-five years ago this morning will be -- will mark the Saturday night massacre, you said.
BESCHLOSS: Right.
LEMON: How close are we to having one of our own right now?
BESCHLOSS: Well, I think it's very possible because, you know, John Dean must feel that he's going through this all again watching all this because, you know, just like the Watergate hearings that began with a small fish, worked up to the big fish, you know, when we're focusing now on Manafort and others of that size, Michael Cohen, that means that we're pretty near to a point presumably when Robert Mueller is going to produce that report.
[22:45:10] And after the election, which way it goes, you know, Donald Trump may feel a lot freer to do a lot of things very quickly that resemble that massacre that Nixon committed 45 years ago tomorrow.
LEMON: John, jump in here, though. Could we see it again, say, if Sessions and Rosenstein were to be removed after the midterms?
DEAN: Well, it could happen. He'd have to order somebody to fire Mueller, and I don't think either Sessions or certainly Rosenstein wouldn't do it. He's indicated he wouldn't.
BESCHLOSS: Right.
LEMON: So the next person is the solicitor general. I don't -- I'm not sure he would either given what happened to the last solicitor general that did it. So, I think it's pretty remote.
But, Don, let me just footnote my remarks by congratulating Michael for getting on the bestseller list, New York Times list at number three this week for his first week on.
LEMON: It was an instant bestseller before he even finished the end of it.
DEAN: Yes.
LEMON: So, and we're going to talk a little more about his book later on. Michael, let me ask you this. If Trump takes action against the DOJ, could it have the same effect the Saturday night massacre did on Nixon's presidency?
BESCHLOSS: It could. What happened with Nixon was after that happened, after he fired those people and abolished the special prosecutor's office, that was when the first big movement toward impeachment really began to -- we began to see that.
And a lot of this depends on what kind of at least a House of Representatives is elected next month. If there is a Democratic House and Donald Trump does that, you can imagine what the result will be. It could be very much like Nixon at the time of Watergate.
LEMON: I bet Michael at the time, John thought, well, this is an anomaly, this only happened once in a lifetime. But yet, John, here you are again with a similar situation. Did you ever think that you would see this happening again?
DEAN: Never. You know, I just still every day cannot believe Nixon would be playing at the same low level that Trump is playing. You know, he doesn't understand the job. He doesn't understand even what the norms of the office are, and he just degrades that office every day in every way.
LEMON: Yes. I think you meant Trump would be playing to the, right, -- is that that what you were saying?
DEAN: No. I think that Trump is so far below Nixon--
LEMON: Wow.
DEAN: -- that Nixon himself would not actually -- we're talking far worse than Richard Nixon in his darkest day.
LEMON: John Dean, thank you. Michael, I want you to stick with me because we've got a lot more to talk about, like what the founding fathers would think of President Donald Trump. We'll be right back.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Donald Trump is a president like none we have seen before. But what about the powers he holds, especially when it comes to waging war? A new book argues that presidents can now single-handedly drag America into war and that could have real consequences for our democracy.
Michael Beschloss is back with us, he is the author of the new book, it's called "Presidents of War: The Epic Story from 1807 to Modern Times." I can't wait to read this. It's a long one. And so, by a roaring fire, I shall be reading this book.
BESCHLOSS: Sounds good.
LEMON: Listen, Michael, it's all about how presidents handle war. How has the president's ability to lead the country into war, how has it changed over the years or has it.
BESCHLOSS: Well, the founders were terrified of the possibility that presidents could get us into war on their own. That's one reason why they said that wars have to be declared by Congress.
But as you know, Don, over 200 years and especially in recent times, we're now in a situation where presidents can get us into major wars almost single-handedly almost overnight. And that's really dangerous especially because what the founders worried about was that presidents would seize too much power and where were the moments in American history when presidents seized power for themselves the most? It was really during wartime.
Wilson did the Espionage Act that Donald Trump is using today to harass journalists. Did you get an alert announcement from the president on your iPhone a couple weeks ago, Don?
LEMON: I did. I did.
BESCHLOSS: Well, it was pretty benign then but might not be so benign if we have a president who is leading us into war and using that direct ability to communicate. During a war, presidents can declare martial law. That's why it's so important the identity and character of who occupies that job.
LEMON: I couldn't agree more. Listen, back in 2011, you know, there's a tweet for everything, right Michael?
BESCHLOSS: Right.
LEMON: This is what Donald Trump tweeted. "In order to get elected Barack Obama will start a war with Iran." So clearly, he's thought about how war can we make presidents more powerful at home. He's thought about this before.
BESCHLOSS: And he has and that's something that basically should make us all sleep with one eye open because it's a very dangerous thing for a president to think about the possibility of going to war is something that can help you politically or elevate your poll ratings.
Donald Trump has also said the greatest presidents in history are those who have had great wars. Well, for someone who as narcissistic as he is, that is also an unsettling possibility that he might one day see waging war as a way of elevating his historical standing.
LEMON: So, this is in the epilog to your book. I'll put it up. You write, "The founding fathers hoped that all future presidents would be people of sagacity, self-restraint, honesty, experience, character and profound respect for Democratic ideals. They anticipated that any chief executive strain to avoid taking the nation into conflict except to confront a genuine immediate national danger."
[22:55:06] Are we living up to that hope right now?
BESCHLOSS: I don't think so because the founders just in terms of temperament, they were thinking of George Washington. You know, one reason why in the Constitution they're pretty vague about what a president does and what he should be is because they knew that George Washington would be the first president and he would sort of define that job. But I think they never expected that there would be someone like Donald Trump in terms of grabbing presidential power in almost every way he can.
Supreme court. Taming members of Congress, leaders of his party in the Senate and the House. That's something that is making him more powerful but it would have made the founders very nervous.
LEMON: As you were writing the book, I've heard from most authors that there's a moment of profundity where something profound happens and you say, my gosh. As you were writing this book was there anything, did you have an epiphany of any sort were you shocked or surprised by anything as you were going through this that you learned?
BESCHLOSS: Well, particularly that it's a biography as you know of basically the eight or nine presidents who have taken us into our major wars and they have a lot of things in common. A lot of them had almost nervous breakdowns. A lot of them have these strong marriages that basically get them through.
They all got more religious. Lincoln said he couldn't understand how a president could go through the trauma of war without becoming more religious than he was, and above all, and think of this in terms of who is president right now, they all had empathy. Lincoln, for instance had, to build a national cemetery he said build it right next to my summer home so that every time I go to that house, I will see the graves of union soldiers being dug. It's going to be very painful to me but at least I'll always be reminded of the consequences of the terrible decisions I'm making.
President Trump just said during the last day or two that he didn't feel it was necessary to visit the troops in Afghanistan. I just can't imagine.
LEMON: The book again is called "Presidents of War." Make sure you check it out. Michael Beschloss, thank you so much. Come back anytime.
BESCHLOSS: Thank you, Don. I would love it, Don. Thank you, a lot.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
