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Don Lemon Tonight
Donald Trump is Doubling Down on Calling Himself a Nationalist; No Proof of Bad Actors Mixed in the Caravan; Eric Holder Giving a Hint of His 2020 Plan; The Confederate Symbol in Full Display in the Georgia Race for Governor; A Racist Robocall Against Andrew Gillum Surfaces. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 23, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: We will see what is offered up as sustenance because the need, the appetite, is clearly great.
Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: We've had this discussion before. The people who tell you, why do you have that person on your show? I don't see -- I don't think that they're always necessarily wrong, Chris.
CUOMO: I know you don't.
LEMON: I don't think they're wrong because I think that, number one, we have duties as journalists not to be fonts or platforms for propaganda.
CUOMO: True.
LEMON: And if you have someone -- this is -- I struggle with this. As a matter of fact, I've been talking to co-workers about it. I struggle with how much attention, how much time to give to lies and inaccurate information because people will believe that just by putting it on television and pointing it out. People still believe the lie because you're actually a megaphone to put the lie out there that people are going to believe.
And then they have to do their, well, is it true? Is it not true? Well, you've already put it out there. And so therefore it's already in the ethos. And especially if you have people who come on and every single time they come on your program, they're not honest with the American people.
This is not about a First Amendment right appearing on CNN. That's not. You can go outside. You can yell at people. You can do whatever you want. That's your First Amendment right. Appearing on a platform like CNN or any other network is a privilege. It's not a right. And these are -- these are privately held companies. You don't have a right to come on here and lie constantly to the American people.
That is my struggle. I know that we have to constantly call out the lies, but sometimes I wonder if we're doing more harm than good by actually putting them out there and promoting them than, you know, that's it. I think sometimes we're doing more harm than good in that way.
CUOMO: Yes, I get you. Look, I respect the struggle. I think that's good. I think a big part of journalism is your process.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: I don't have the same struggle because I am in the testing business.
LEMON: You are.
CUOMO: I don't believe that you just call out, hey, you're lying. I don't see that as very productive. I will tell you why it's a lie by showing you what the truth is on something. And when you do that again and again and again, you wind up defusing the power of the mendacity. That's the only antidote to Trump. That's why he doesn't want to come on.
LEMON: But don't you think some of the lies that if we didn't put it out there, people wouldn't know about it.
CUOMO: Sometimes. But you're also assuming it's not out there already.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I'm usually dealing with things that are out there, if only by dint of when we're on, Don. You know, the news cycle is so quick. So little happens on our watch.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, most of it we're playing catch up you and I and we're trying to figure out how we can offer something different via value.
LEMON: yes.
CUOMO: And I believe in the engagement. I believe in having people on. I may fall short. People may get the better of me. They may wind up winning an argument that they shouldn't have, but that's on me. That's not saying, I don't want to hear from the other side anymore. That, I think, is dangerous.
LEMON: Well, it's not even -- it's even the other side. Listen, this is beyond ideology, right, what we're dealing with right now. This is beyond ideology. It's not like I don't want to hear from Republicans. I don't want to hear from liberals. I don't want to hear from Democrats. That's not it.
This is about truth and lies. This is about the fabric of our democracy. This is about a constant misrepresentation of the truth, facts, and reality. And if you continue to feed into that, do you make it worse than better? We don't have to continue to feed into it. We don't have to continue to chase the shiny object every time Trump throws something out there.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I'm with you about that.
LEMON: That we know is misinformation.
CUOMO: I'm with you about that.
LEMON: Even the whole caravan thing. We know the caravan, they're 1,100 miles or 1,000 miles away from the United States. They're not knocking at our doors. Some of them will come over. Some of them won't even make it to the border. What the real issue is, that is the process. People come over and they claim asylum. And then we figure out who we let in and who we don't.
CUOMO: That's the problem.
LEMON: That's how it works.
CUOMO: But that's the problem.
LEMON: And then by saying that there are people from the Middle East in the middle of -- what is he insinuating? That it's terrorism.
CUOMO: He was playing it terror. But notice how he gave that up. And I'll tell you something. That's a signal to Democrats. Both things you just said should be a signal to Democrats. One, they've got a problem coming. Two, they've got a problem right now.
The problem right now is the reason Trump gave up and said there's no of proof, there's no proof, he almost never does that. The only time he does it is when he knows he's got something better working. And he doesn't need the terrorism scare right now. He doesn't need the anti- Islamism right now, he doesn't need it. So, he let it go because all he needs is the caravan.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And yes, they're hundreds and hundreds of miles away, but they are going to come, some number of them is going to come.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And when it does, the Democrats are going to be in the box.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Because the way the process works is going to be unsatisfying to a big cut of the country, which is you get to come in any way you can, and then apply for asylum. That's the law.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: A legal or illegal entry is not distinguished within the law of asylum. And people are going to find that unsatisfying and Democrats are going to need an answer. That's what I'm getting ahead.
LEMON: I got to run, and tell you, though, Anthony Scaramucci, I do have to agree. He is not wrong when he talks about just continuing to call out the lies of the president. I'm talking about for candidates.
[22:05:01] For journalists, we have to do that. But for the Democrats, that just doesn't work because I think he said earlier that it's like a Teflon skillet, like throwing, you know, meat into a Teflon skillet. It just doesn't stick because it's already baked into it.
So, Democrats have to figure out a better way if they want to have at least some leeway, or at least gain some sort of advantage in this election, they're going to have to figure out a better way because this president doesn't care. He just keeps going and the lies don't matter. They eat it up.
CUOMO: You got to have something better. You got to give people a reason to believe.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's what caused the big turnover in '94 and 2010. Those midterms. We'll see what it is this time.
LEMON: That's what we're going to talk to Eric Holder about that just moments away.
CUOMO: Great choice.
LEMON: Thank you. I enjoy our conversations.
CUOMO: Always.
LEMON: You're a good man. See you soon.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
We are now exactly two weeks from the midterm elections, possibly the most consequential in modern American history.
President Trump, who likes to claim that he is a businessman and not a politician, is certainly acting like one, using his gut political instincts to appeal to his base to get out and vote, trying to stop a possible Democratic blue wave and keep Congress in Republican hands.
And let's face it. Let's be honest. His instincts are savvy. As he sees it, you can't argue with success, right? His latest tactic, amplifying his America first brand of governing. Here's what he told supporters at a campaign rally in Houston last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A globalist is a person that wants the globe to do well, frankly not caring about our country so much. And you know what? We can't have that. You know, they have a word. It sort of became old-fashioned. It's called a nationalist. And I say, really, we're not supposed to use that word. You know what I am? I'm a nationalist, OK? I'm a nationalist.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Shocking. It is. We have a president who calls himself a nationalist. Nationalist, a loaded word for a lot of people. But the president dismissed any concern about it, and sitting at his desk in the Oval Office, defended the new label he is using for himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I love our country, and our country has taken second fiddle.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: There is a concern that you are sending coded language or a dog whistle to some Americans out there that what you really mean is that you're a white nationalist.
TRUMP: I never even heard that. I cannot imagine that. You mean, I say, I'm a nationalist.
(CROSSTALK)
ACOSTA: You never heard that expression?
TRUMP: No, I never heard that theory about being a nationalist. We protect and we get killed. We do the training and they get killed. Can't do it. All I want our country is to be treated well, to be treated with respect. So, in that sense, I am absolutely a nationalist, and I'm proud of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He's never heard that? Come on, man. You're the president of the United States. You've never heard that white nationalist, nationalist? You should know better. Nobody is questioning whether President Trump loves his country. But he just said he's never heard of white nationalism.
That really seems hard to believe, but maybe we should just give him the benefit of the doubt over using the nationalist label, or not. Why is there skepticism? Well, let's examine.
Examples of Trump's own words, which many Americans have found offensive, even racist. And they always seem directed at brown people. After famously riding down that escalator to kick off his presidential campaign, Trump said this about Mexican immigrants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. You guys, you know it by heart. You can hear it, right? It's a refrain. Shortly after a Muslim couple launched a deadly shooting attack in San Bernardino, California, in December of 2015, this is what candidate Trump said to a rally of enthusiastic supporters in South Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Also, while a candidate, Trump slammed a sitting federal judge who was born in Indiana, of Mexican heritage by the way, Judge Gonzalo Curiel. He got into Trump's crosshairs long before the president was elected.
[22:09:58] Curiel presided over a class action lawsuit concerning students who said that they had been defrauded by the now-defunct Trump university. The case was ultimately settled after Trump won the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I've been treated very unfairly by this judge. Now, this judge is of Mexican heritage. I'm building a wall, OK? I'm building a wall. I am going to do very well with the Hispanics, the Mexicans.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So, no Mexican judge could ever be involved in a case that involves you?
TRUMP: Well, he's a member of a society well, you know, very pro- Mexico, and that's fine. It's all fine. But I think he should recuse himself.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Because he's Latino?
TRUMP: Then you also--
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Earlier this year, President Trump in a meeting with lawmakers, referred to Haiti and some African-American nations as -- this is a quote "shithole countries," adding that the U.S. should get more people from countries like Norway.
And who can forget the president's comments following the deadly white nationalist violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, where anti-Semitic slogans were shouted? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: President Trump claims that criminals and Middle Easterners are part of the caravan of thousands of Central American migrants making their way through Mexico, trying to reach the U.S. border. But listen to this exchange today with my colleague, Jim Acosta. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: You had said that there are Middle Easterners in the caravan.
TRUMP: Yes.
ACOSTA: Can you explain that? Are you saying there are terrorists in that caravan at this point?
TRUMP: Because very well be and if you look at--
(CROSSTALK)
ACOSTA: But do you know for sure?
TRUMP: I have very good information.
ACOSTA: Are you saying that you have evidence that there are terrorists in the caravan?
TRUMP: I spoke with border patrol this morning, and I spoke to them last evening, and I spoke to them the day before. I speak to them all the time, and they say -- and you know this as well as anybody -- over the course of the year, over the course of a number of years, they've intercepted many people from the Middle East.
ACOSTA: But no proof -- no proof that they're in the caravan now?
TRUMP: There's no proof of anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Right there in his own words, the president saying there's no proof of anything. A direct contradiction of himself. He's directly contradicting himself.
The Washington Post reporting that Trump's using the migrant caravan as part of a strategy of fear ahead of the midterms to get Republicans to the polls.
Former Trump campaign adviser, listen to this, his name is Barry Bennett, calling it a political gift, saying, "I wish they were carrying heroin. I wish we had thought of it. It speaks to the dearth of our creativity unfortunately. There are 7,000 people marching toward the U.S. border. One party wants to let them in. The other party wants to keep them out."
Think about that. I wish they were carrying heroin. That would really scare the voters, scoring political, potential political points while Americans are dying in records number -- record numbers from a catastrophic opioid epidemic.
The migrants are putting themselves in great danger to escape violence in their native countries, to seek asylum here in the United States, which is legal by the way.
But there is no shame in the Trump White House about the lies, about the false statements, the pandering to the base. The president and his aides appear to be taking a page out of the Steven Bannon playbook. Bannon, of course, one of the architects of Trump's strategy to win 2016, the election in 2016. Earlier this year he told a group of far- right French nationalists that history is on their side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Let them call you racist. Let them call you xenophobes. Let them call you nativists. Wear it as a badge of honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: President Trump proudly wearing that badge tonight. Eric Holder calls the upcoming midterms the most important election in his lifetime. I'm going to ask the former attorney general why he feels that way and about the efforts to keep voters away from the polls.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Just two weeks to go until the midterm elections. President Trump firing up his base telling supporters that although he's not on the ballot, the midterms are about him. Democrats are firing up their base as well, hoping a blue wave sweeps Capitol Hill.
So, let's discuss now with Mr. Eric Holder. He was attorney general under President Obama, who is now the chairman, by the way, of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. Hello to you. Thanks for joining us.
So, let's talk about the blue wave first, OK?
ERIC HOLDER, FORMER UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes.
LEMON: You said earlier this year the blue wave will hit a gerrymandered seawall, presumably districts drawn by Republicans to keep Democrats at bay. Just two weeks out, can the Democrats overcome that?
HOLDER: I think the Democrats can overcome that if we have a really substantial turnout. But I'm concerned that this seawall of gerrymandering might stop that blue wave from getting to the shore, and I point to Virginia where Democrats beat Republicans by 10 percentage points last year, but were unable to take back the general assembly.
LEMON: So, then, what to do then because oftentimes when these go -- these cases go to the court, they lose?
HOLDER: Well, there are a number of things. We at the National Democratic Redistricting Committee are coming up with ways in which we put in place these independent commissions to draw the lines as opposed to having politicians choosing their voters. We're filing lawsuits where that is appropriate.
And then again, there's a direct electoral consequence. You can get past some of this gerrymandering if you have really, really substantial turnout. But you shouldn't have a system where you have to have substantial turnout. It ought to be whoever gets the most votes should win.
LEMON: It's surprising that people who the smallest number of people -- I should say it's not the majority who is actually running the country. It is the minority, and states where there are fewer representatives, fewer people, are actually deciding what's good or what's bad for the entire country.
[22:20:02] HOLDER: Well, I think there are a whole bunch of things that we need to focus on. I mean with regard to gerrymandering and voter suppression, you are seeing a minority in this country taking power that is not legitimately theirs.
A minority of people are taking majority power and running things for the rest of the country. And frankly, taking positions that most of the rest of the country does not -- does not favor when it comes to gun safety measures, when it comes to questions about reproductive choice. These are all things where the minority is taking views inconsistent with the wishes of the majority.
LEMON: You raised eyebrows a few weeks ago when you talked to Democrats and how they should oppose Trump. I want you to watch this, and then we'll talk.
HOLDER: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLDER: Michelle says that, you know, when they go low, we go high. No. No. When they go low, we kick them.
(APPLAUSE)
HOLDER: That's what this new Democratic Party is about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. And then I want to show you some other protests that have been happening. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't belong here, you (muted) communist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the (muted) out of here.
(CROWD CHANTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Listen, so you say that it was a figure of speech, that you weren't advocating violence. But Republicans don't care. They've branded you along with other Democrats as angry, angry, violent mob. Are you worried about how this could play out?
HOLDER: Well, I mean, what I was saying was really a metaphor for the notion that people who try to undermine our democracy should be opposed, and we as Democrats should be tough in that opposition.
I wasn't advocating violence obviously. And a lot of this outrage that you have seen on another news channel and by Republicans is really -- is fake. You know, it's made up. They're trying to use it for political advantage.
Now, I am not one, however, who thinks that politicians should be confronted in restaurants or at their homes. I disagree violently with, you know, vehemently with what Ted Cruz has said, but I wouldn't approach him in a restaurant. Let him have dinner, you know, with his family and have a civil debate with him in another context.
LEMON: Do you regret at all saying that? Would you say it again?
HOLDER: Well, you know, I said what I said. But what people don't play is what I said after -- almost immediately thereafter. I said, look, I'm not saying we do anything inappropriate, that we don't do anything illegal. That's on that tape as well. And what I'm trying -- what I was trying to say then and what I'm saying now is Democrats have to be prepared to be tough.
LEMON: As I watch, Mr. Holder, and I see the division on both sides, people are really far left or far right and they're angry, are you concerned at all about violence?
HOLDER: Well, I mean, you know, there are always going to be people on the extremes who will resort to violence, but that's not what's best about America, and it's not the way in which I think these elections should be decided.
So, yes, I'm worried about people on the fringes. But the vast majority of Americans, you know, we're a noisy nation, you know? We yell and scream at each other. You know, that's what the nature of our political dialogue is frequently like.
So, you know, we can handle that. All these people who are awfully concerned, expressing this fake concern about, you know, something that I said, are purveyors themselves of things that I think are inappropriate. LEMON: I want to talk to you about what's happening now, getting
close to our southern borders. At least it's a thousand miles away right now. The president is stoking pear and false characterization of an immigrant caravan heading to the southern border.
It's dangerous to Americans. You once said that the president's MAGA slogan is rooted in fear. Is this a winning strategy for him to characterize it that way?
HOLDER: I certainly hope it's not a winning strategy. I think that in some ways this election will allow us to look into the soul of this nation. We'll really get a sense of where we are as a people.
This is, I think, the most important midterm election of my life. We have an opportunity to put a check on an administration that I think has been unbelievably corrupt and that runs the country in a way that's inconsistent with all that we say we value as Americans.
You know, his characterization of this caravan and using the terms that he has used, I think is deeply disturbing and is, again, inconsistent with who we say we are as a nation.
LEMON: The president said something a lot of people find troubling at his rally last night. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know what I am? I'm a nationalist, OK? I'm a nationalist.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: Nationalist. Use that word. Use that word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He repeated it, defended it today. What's your reaction? What do you think he means?
HOLDER: I'm not sure what he means, and I wonder if he even knows what he means. Is he an ethnic nationalist? That would be a little bit disturbing. Is he an economic nationalist? I might disagree with some of the positions he might take.
[22:25:06] LEMON: Because nationalist doesn't have a positive connotation. Some people find it similar to the beliefs of the neo- Nazis who were in Charlottesville or, you know, the new right, the alt-right, so to speak.
HOLDER: Well, you know, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt here. I hope that he's not trying to characterize himself in a way that's consistent with neo-Nazis or white supremacists.
LEMON: Straightforward question here. Are you going to run for president?
HOLDER: I'm focused on November the 6th at this point, and I'm going to decide early next year.
LEMON: So, you're not saying no. You're not counting it out. There's still a chance.
HOLDER: Yes, there is that chance. But as I said, I'm focused on November the 6th, and I'm urging everybody to get out there and vote.
LEMON: If Joe Biden joins the race, are you still going to run?
HOLDER: Yes, I mean, I'm going to make a decision on a variety of -- take into account a variety of things, but I'm not going to face that decision until next year.
LEMON: You're going to be campaigning with former President Barack Obama later this week in Michigan, a key state that went for Trump in 2016. What will your message be?
HOLDER: I think our message will be that we've got great candidates running for governor, running for senator, and down-ballot as well. Also, they are to support a proposal that will take redistricting away from politicians and put it in the hands of an independent commission.
And talk about, you know, the progress that we made during the Obama administration, progress that was made while Democrats were in power. And to say that, you know, we are a better country than we have seen exemplified by this president and by his administration and that it's time for -- it's time for a change.
LEMON: Eric Holder, I thank you for your time. You're welcome to come back anytime on this program. We'll have you.
HOLDER: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: So after proudly proclaiming himself a nationalist again, the president says the word should be used more often. Where is the Republican pushback?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:01] LEMON: President Trump doubling down tonight on calling himself a nationalist and saying he's proud to be one, giving himself a new label that some see as a dog whistle as he riles up his base ahead of the midterms. I want to bring in now Nicholas Kristof and Max Boot, the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." Good evening, everyone.
Thank you so much both gentleman for joining us. So Nick, you heard the President today defending his label as a nationalist, telling Jim Acosta that he hadn't heard the theory that it's coded language for white nationalism. And yet he admitted last night, right, when he said I probably shouldn't use this word. I am not supposed to use that word. That shows that he knows exactly what the word is, and there is some controversy behind it.
NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Yeah. I mean in general, I think we should give President Trump some capacity to demonstrate obliviousness about words and so on. But in this case, the fact that he already alluded to that earlier suggests to me that he knew exactly where he was coming from. And, you know, I think of the great De Gaulle quote about nationalism versus patriotism.
LEMON: You want me to read it for you?
KRISTOF: Please do.
LEMON: Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first. Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.
KRISTOF: Doesn't that kind of capture it?
LEMON: It does.
KRISTOF: We should all be patriots.
LEMON: But those people who are going to -- coming across our border in this caravan with the -- what does he say? Middle easterners in there.
KRISTOF: You know, it strikes me that throughout history there's been this tension between the Statue of Liberty ethos of, you know, give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, and the know-nothings, and the Chinese exclusion acts. And I am afraid that is exactly what is playing out now before these midterms.
LEMON: Max, I know you want to weigh in on this. So let me just ask you this, the President also admitting that there is no proof, Max, of his unsupported claim that there are middle easterners among migrants. Your latest column, here's what you write. You write about how this is his most shameless exercise in fear-mongering yet. Go on, Max.
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It is just so incredibly irresponsible for the President of the United States to make these grave insinuations to accuse these poor, helpless, central American migrants of being middle eastern terrorists, and then basically saying, well, I don't need any proof. They could be. I mean I think as Nick himself said today on Twitter, hey, the Easter Bunny could be in there too. You never know.
It's always a possibility. But you expect a President of the United States to actually have some evidence behind his words. But clearly, what really bothers me here is the fact that Donald Trump shows a cavalier disregard for the facts. He knows what he's saying is not truthful, and he doesn't care because he knows his base doesn't care. He knows that his fellow Republicans don't care. They love what he is insinuating, which is that immigrants are terrorists.
They love the fact that he is demonizing a minority group, these poor Latinos who are trying to flee war and crime and poverty, trying to find a better life for themselves. And Donald Trump is basically beating them up in the service of political gain. This is one of the most despicable acts I have seen any politician carry out in my lifetime. LEMON: Nick, you were very direct in your article in the Times, where
you say the Republican Party has lost its way. And here's what you write. You say, sure, there are still many principled individuals within the party. But as a national institution, the Republican Party is hollow. It is no longer -- it's no longer about an ideology. It's about shining President Trump's shoes.
KRISTOF: You know -- I mean the Republican Party genuinely stood for things. It was associated with fiscal conservatism. It was associated with standing up to Russia. It was associated with free trade. These days, it stands for none of that. And in particular, congressional Republicans have really avoided any kind of oversight or any willingness to provide any oversight over the White House in a way that seems to me an abandonment of their responsibility.
LEMON: Do you think the party should start over?
KRISTOF: We desperately need a good center right party, partly to hold progressives like me accountable. We need -- that's the benefit of a two-party system. When one party controls a city or a state, it doesn't work well. But this party doesn't seem to stand for anything larger than itself, and that, you know -- I think that a lesson needs to be taught at the elections to help build a more robust center right party.
[22:35:16] LEMON: Max, you're actually quoted in Nick's piece. And you say the Republican Party must be burned to the ground if there's any chance at rebuilding. I mean -- so to the people who are watching, who voted for Trump, who sees you. They may see you as maybe a disgruntled former Republican who didn't get his way. What do you say to them?
BOOT: Well, I am a former Republican, but that's the last thing I wanted to be. I mean as I describe in my book, the Corrosion of Conservatism, I spent my entire life as a Republican. The first time I ever voted for a Democrat was Hillary Clinton in 2016. And it was only because Donald Trump was so unacceptable to me. And he has taken the Republican Party so far from its roots as the kind of open, expansive, optimistic, inclusive party that I knew as a young man in the 1980s.
I mean I mention in the book the fact that in 1980, Ronald Reagan actually gave a speech in which he talked about making America great again, a familiar slogan. But when he was talking about that, he was doing it in front of the Statue of Liberty, celebrating the achievements of immigrants. When has Donald Trump ever had anything positive to say about immigrants?
He sees them exclusively as a font of terrorism and crime, as a problem for our society, ignoring the fact that we're all immigrants, including Donald Trump's own grandparents. This is a nation of immigrants. And Donald Trump talks a lot about making America great, but he shows no understanding of what true greatness is all about in this country, which is our ability to take people from all over the world, meld them together in dedication to a common ideal, and to make them into Americans. There is nothing more un-American than the way that Donald Trump is
beating up on minorities and outsiders in order to mobilize his white base. That is not what any party in America should be doing. And it's tragic and horrifying to me that this is something that my old party, the Republican Party, is doing. I wish Republicans would wake up and stop this. I wish Republicans would say enough.
There are things that we will not do to win elections. This is going too far. This is hurting America. This is dividing Americans. This is immoral. This is unethical. This is wrong. But the only people I see saying that are people like me who are former Republicans.
LEMON: And there are a lot of them. There are a lot of former Republicans or people who are Republicans now, and they get beat up because people call them rhinos, you know, or that they're somehow turning their backs on their party, because they're speaking up for the principles that their party once stood for. Nick, I will give you the last word.
KRISTOF: The -- you know I am sure that to some viewers who are Republicans, it feels unfair that Max or I are pounding on the party today, and it feels awkward for me, frankly. But there have been times in our history when a party has gone so far astray or a movement has gone so far astray that you have to simply speak up. And the first round of the American First Movement in 1940, 41, I think is an example where a lot of well-meaning people didn't want anything to do with any kind of new war in Europe or anywhere else.
They thought that Hitler was providing order in Germany. They were sympathetic to a guy that trains running on time. And in retrospect, that was a disaster that journalists and others had to blow the whistle on. And I am sure it seemed partisan then. But you simply have to speak truth about issues that seem really important. And it seems to me that this is in every way an echo of the American First Movement of that period when we have an American First Movement today that is an echo of that.
LEMON: Profound words to end on. And I will only add that when we look back in 10 years, 20 years time or even longer, if people will be happy with whatever side that they were on or their actions during this period. Thank you, both. We'll be right back.
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[22:40:00] LEMON: The confederate symbol now front and center in the Georgia governor's race. Let me tell you why. Before tonight's first debate, images surfaced of the Democratic candidate, Stacey Abrams, protesting and watching the burning of the Georgia flag back in 1992 when she was in college, OK? And this is what she was protesting. As you can see, back then, more than half of the Georgia state flag was made of the confederate emblem.
It was added in 1956, by the way. This is important. It was added in 1956 to send a message that Georgia was against integrating schools. Here's how Abrams defended herself in tonight's debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty six years ago as a college freshman, I along with many other Georgians, including the governor of Georgia, were deeply disturbed by the racial divisiveness that was embedded in the state flag with that confederate symbol. I took an action of peaceful protest. I said that that was wrong. And 10 years later, my opponent, Brian Kemp, actually voted to remove that symbol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So there is a long history of protesting the confederate symbol, and Abrams was on the right side of history. In 2003, it was completely removed from Georgia's flag. But the state's history with race keeps coming up in this campaign. Abrams wants a giant carving of Stone Mountain, a confederate memorial, removed. And her opponent, Brian Kemp, is promising to protect it, it and other historical monuments from, quote, the radical left.
And by the way, if she is elected in November, Stacey Abrams would become the first black female governor in this country. Let's bring in now Symone Sanders and Scott Jennings to discuss. Good evening to both of you. Will this controversy over Stacey Abrams and the Georgia flag make a difference in this race, first, Symone?
[22:45:06] SYMONE SANDERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. I really don't think this controversy is going to sway a number of voters. I do think this is an 11th hour opposition research drop that frankly fell flat. I think what Georgians are concerned about is their health care, is the economy. Are they going to elect a governor that's going to go to work for them and not national special interests?
And I think that that's what they're concerned about. They have a clear choice in this race. And in my opinion, people should be pulling the lever for Stacey Abrams. But I don't think this is going to -- like the flag controversy is going to tip the scale.
LEMON: All right. So to this matter, Scott, Kemp, her opponent, is painting her, Abrams, as too extreme. Does this new story fit that narrative? Do you think it's successful?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think anybody who opposes the confederacy and supports the first amendment is extreme. I think she engaged in a first amendment action. The symbol is no longer on the Georgia flag anyway. I mean look. I don't think this is going to be relevant to most people. So -- and I don't know what Kemp's position on the whole thing is. But at the end of the day, she has a first amendment right to engage in any kind of free speech she wants.
And I just -- I don't think most people are going to take issue with somebody who happens to oppose the confederacy. They lost. The Union won, and that's where...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And get over it. As a son of the south, I am like could we please get over this? They lost. OK, so listen, let's talk about -- this is a very important story that we want to talk about. Voting rights, a big deal in this race, the issue is Kemp's enforcement of a rule known as the Exact Match Rule. Now, this rule requires names on voting rolls to precisely match names in other state records, OK?
So according to the Associated Press, of the 53,000 voters put on hold through this process, 70 percent of them African-Americans, here's what Kemp said when he was asked if he is suppressing the vote. And then Abrams responds. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have more voters on the roll than when I took office. I created the process for overseas and military ballots to be delivered electronically. We have made it easier to vote and hard to cheat. And just because Ms. Abrams files a false lawsuit or the new Georgia project, it doesn't mean it is right. And we defeated that in 2014.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Kemp, you're out of time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The right to vote is a right. I grew up in a family that fought for the right to vote before they were old enough to do so. My father was arrested helping people register. And so I take the right to vote very seriously. I only believe that those who have the legal eligibility to vote should cast a ballot.
But I also understand that under Secretary Kemp, more people have lost the right to vote in the state of Georgia. They've been purged. They've been suppressed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Symone, problem for Kemp? How bad is it?
SANDERS: I think it is a problem for Brian Kemp, and let me tell you why. Because this Exact Match Rule, this law used to be a policy of the Secretary of State's office. Brian Kemp said there on the debate stage that, you know, he was -- that the new Georgia project sued and they lost. That's not true. They sued, and they came to an agreement with the Secretary of State's office.
And then what happened, the legislature ended up passing the exact policy that the Secretary of State made up and codified it into law. So I think this is problematic. Look, I think Rolling Stone also has an article that dropped today that said that Brian Kemp, at a fund- raiser, was talking about the fact that high voter turnout would be damaging to their campaign, i.e., the Republican governor's campaign, his campaign.
And that, you know, if lots of people turn out to vote, it won't bode well for him. He is on tape saying that. And so that coupled with his record in the Secretary of State's office I think is extremely concerning, which is why, Don, folks have called for him to step down, so that folks in Georgia know that on November 6th when they go to the ballot, they are going to the ballot... (CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Or at least recuse himself from this process until the election is over. Scott, I am going to get you in on the other side. We're going to talk more about voter suppression in another big state. And also, you got to hear -- you won't believe this robocall, OK? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00] LEMON: So back with me now Symone Sanders and Scott Jennings. I want you to take a listen to this new robocall against Andrew Gillum, who is running to be the first black governor of Florida. It was reportedly put out by a white supremacist group in Idaho. And I have to warn you. It is very disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, hello there. I is the Negro Andrew Gillum. And I will be asking you to make me governor against (Inaudible). My esteemed opponent who called me monkey is doing a lot of hollering about how expensive my plans for healthcare be. But he be thinking (Inaudible), which is very expensive using science and what not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Scott, Gillum's opponent, Ron DeSantis, says he doesn't know who is behind this robocall, but he hasn't condemned it yet. Why not?
JENNINGS: I think he should condemn it. This is deplorable. It's terrible. It's awful. It has no place in American politics. I wonder what the motivations are of some people sometimes to put these things out. I understand there's -- you know I think they're trying to get people to acknowledge them, and therefore, elevate them. So I kind you have want this condemned without -- somehow without elevating the bastards who did it.
And so I just -- I hate it. And I hope anybody in any campaign anywhere that's carrying an R behind their name, if this kind of activity goes on in your race, condemn it immediately. Separate yourself from it. It has no place in your campaign.
[22:54:53] LEMON: Symone, we've been talking about Stacey Abrams and Andrew Gillum, two African-Americans who could become their states' first governor of Georgia and Florida. Do you expect more robocalls, more ugliness like this the next two weeks?
SANDERS: I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it, Don, and I say that because...
LEMON: And by the way, good on Scott.
SANDERS: Yes. Good on -- I mean look, if more folks hired consultants like Scott Jennings on the Republican side, the world would be a better place. And I say that because so many campaigns in the 9th and the 11th hour in this closing argument have resulted to fear tactics, are scaring people into going to the polls instead of giving them something to vote for.
And I think that's a failed strategy that will not yield much results. So I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of these robocalls. I would like to note the group in Idaho that did this robocall, they have done this before. This is something they do in races across the country. And it's unfortunate. It is racist. We need to call in out and condemn it when we see it and when we hear it.
But I don't think Andrew Gillum or even Stacey Abrams, for that matter, with everything that's going on in Georgia, is letting this distract them and take them off their message.
LEMON: Thank you, both. I appreciate it your time. See you next time. All the problems with one word the President is using to define himself. Fareed Zakaria weighs in on all the racist, anti-semitic, and other truly terrible connotations that come with calling yourself a nationalist.
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