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Don Lemon Tonight
CNN Received Mail with Explosives; President Trump Calls for Unity but No Apology Given; President Trump Increasing His Attacks on the Media; A Pipe Bomb Addressed To Prominent Democratic Figures Earlier Today; Trump Blaming The Media For The Division In This Country. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 24, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: He had the opportunity today.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: He blamed the victim tonight.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: For him to sit there and blame us, we're the victims here.
CUOMO: And only us.
LEMON: Is disgusting.
CUOMO: Yes. And only us. I guess he thought the victim in all of this, somehow him. But you know, look, there are a couple of tweaks. One, I'm not so sure that they're doing his bidding. I'm not so sure he's not doing their bidding because he's adopted a lot of things and brought a lot of things out that I had never really heard him talk about before. And it makes me think he sees opportunity in it, but maybe he's getting played.
The second thing is he is the president of the United States.
LEMON: Well, that's the point.
CUOMO: He is our president. We only have one, and he had an opportunity tonight to take the high ground.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And it seems to me that the roar of the thousands is making him deaf to the needs of the millions. And I don't think he'll ever get where he wants to be unless he changes how he is.
LEMON: Anderson was on earlier with James Clapper, and he said are you taking any precautions? He talked about the mail situation.
So, I will tell you this that I will share. I ended my week last week with a conference call with the NYPD for one of the open credible threats against me. That's how I ended my week. And now the middle of this week, my first phone call was to CNN
security because the super in my building said, how do we handle your mail today and going forward, Mr. Lemon? So, I have to tell everyone who -- including the postman, when you get something from me, I need you to be careful. Maybe you shouldn't open it. Maybe we should send it to a scanning facility or a facility where they open it.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: I have been in this business, Chris, for 27 years, and the only thing -- and I've had credible threats against me for the first time in the past couple of years. I have security now for the first time in 27 years.
You know the only difference now versus all the other 25 years or so is Donald Trump and calling people the enemy. Listen, I'm tired of people going, well, maybe you can't -- yes, you can. He is the leader of the free world. He is the president of the United States. Anytime you call people enemy of the people and people at your rallies sit there and cheer, we don't know who did this. It could be a Democrat. It could be a Republican. It's a disturbed person.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Right?
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: That's why it was so easy for him to take the high road today.
LEMON: But that disturbed person--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He could have been a leader today.
LEMON: That person is feeding off of the energy that this president is putting out.
CUOMO: That's true. Let's say, and I don't think this is likely. I don't know how you get these same targets and it's a coincidence. But let's give the benefit of every doubt to that. He still had an opportunity tonight.
LEMON: Exactly.
CUOMO: To say Presidents Obama and Clinton, I'm sorry. We will keep you safe. That is my top priority. The other targets, we got to do better than this. If my rhetoric was making people feel this way, boy, are you stupid. Boy, did you get me wrong.
LEMON: He can't do that.
CUOMO: He could have.
LEMON: He can't. he can't do it. He's not a big enough man to do it. (CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He could have done it. He's president of the United States. That is the job. The job demands that men grow in the moment.
LEMON: Well--
CUOMO: It always has been. Every historian will tell you that, and that was the hope for him as well. But that's why -- look, I like Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana. I like dealing with him. He's a straight dealer. He doesn't always like what I ask him. He comes at me sometimes. He dodges. I got to chase him. But he's a fair broker, and he came tonight a lot of people would--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I don't think he's a fair broker.
CUOMO: Fine.
LEMON: I think, listen, I think he'll come on and -- by the way, he's from my home state. I don't agree with the way he represents us.
CUOMO: You don't have to.
LEMON: But I'm glad that he comes on your show.
CUOMO: But he came on, right, and a lot wouldn't. But nobody in that party will look the president in the eye or even on a TV screen when he's not even there and say, what you did was wrong.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You shouldn't do it. It's hurting us. You're hurting yourself. You're hurting everybody. That's what they should have said today.
Paul Ryan is not even running again. He's got his Wisconsin badgers jacket on. He's in the home state. He's given this thing. He doesn't mention the president and what he did wrong, not once.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I don't see how that party can expect -- I know what they're doing. I know what they're doing. They're riding the wave. They're afraid of him. They think they're going to get hurt at home. They like what he does with the agenda items. So, they are swallowing something.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: This is bigger than that.
CUOMO: They're choosing to ignore something and by doing that, they're empowering it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And it literally wound up with a bomb in people's houses today.
LEMON: Yes. Let me tell you this, and people know that we're friends. I love you. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad Poppy Harlow is here. But when I first saw her, I thought about her newborn and her 2-year-old daughter. I thought about her husband. I thought about Jim's family, Jim Sciutto's family.
I thought about Kate Bolduan's family, I thought about Jeff Zucker's family, I thought about all the people in the makeup room from Yoko to Mitch to Nancy to everyone. I thought about all the people I work with, to my executive producer, my producer Zach.
Every single person I've come across in this building that I've built a relationship with and I love. I thought about them, and I could be mourning them. And tonight, when I watch the president of the United States to add insult to injury, he couldn't even mention us, and then he blamed the victim. It is a disgusting testament for how he leads this country and the words that come out of his mouth.
[22:05:01] CUOMO: Look, I can't defend it. It was a failure.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And you know, some people will watch this today. Nobody was hurt. I called it a good day, right, because nobody got hurt, thank God. They'll say, you guys are overdramatizing it.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: Here's what you don't know. Don and I have spent so many years going around looking at the remains of people who have died in explosives like this, in situations like that. I've seen it all over the world.
I've seen it with things that were less impressive than this, and I've seen it with more impressive. You never know. The potential is always there if somebody is willing to try to do something. That's why they're chasing so hard to find out who this was.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And at best, it was someone who wanted us to know, I can reach out and touch you if I want to.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And I can do you ugly if I want to. I don't know how that's not a moment that doesn't just defend -- you know, Sarah Sanders responded to Jeff Zucker's statement. Jeff Zucker is the president of CNN.
LEMON: Sarah, sit down. Have a seat, please.
CUOMO: So, she's the press secretary. She says, the president said that no act of violence like this should be tolerated, and then you call him out instead of calling for unity. How dare you do that? You know, look, all of you guys have to make your own lot. I talk to
you guys in the White House about this on a regular basis, what you ignore, you empower and you are part of the same message. You got to make a choice.
And if you're going to call out Jeff Zucker for what he said when your president was up at a rally today and he didn't say any of the things he needed to say, when you wrote the words for him, that's on you too.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I don't want to take up all your time.
LEMON: No, that's all right. I love talking to you. Again, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad Jeff Zucker is here. I'm glad Jeff said what he said. I'm glad Bob the security guard, I'm glad Jack is here. I'm glad Brenda is here. I'm so happy you guys are here because this is life and death. And all the folks who are around here, Kevin, all of you guys, I'm so glad you're here and alive today because we could have been mourning you guys.
CUOMO: Thank God we're not.
LEMON: I think the people at home and especially the people listening and watching at the White House, do your jobs. Do better.
CUOMO: And take the grace and take the opportunity to be better. I love you brother.
LEMON: Thank you, brother. I love you.
CUOMO: Have a good night and a good show.
LEMON: Thank you. Thank you very much. Be careful.
OK. So here we go. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Today, as everyone knows, we got a pipe bomb that was sent right here to CNN. Similar devices, let's call them exactly what they are. They are bombs sent to two former presidents, former secretary of state, a United States congresswoman, a former CIA director, and a former attorney general. So, let's call them what they are. Assassination attempts.
So where is the president of the United States tonight? He's at a political rally. He's at a rally in Wisconsin. He's firing up his base as usual. Incredibly, incredibly blaming the victim, the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As part of a larger national effort to bridge our divides and bring people together, the media also has a responsibility to set a civil tone and to stop the endless hostility and constant negative and oftentimes false attacks and stories. Have to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He just can't help himself. Someone, as I have been saying, could have been killed today, here or at any of the other locations. Someone totally innocent. And he is blaming the media for being hostile, for being negative, spreading lies? He says that falsely.
This is what the president always does. He deflects. Deflection. The president is hostile toward anyone who doesn't agree 100 percent with him. He is frequently negative, and no one ever in public office has told more lies.
Yes, the president red scripted remarks tonight and this afternoon, and he seemed to say the right things. But let's look at them in the context of the totality of his actions and his words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I want to begin tonight's rally by addressing the suspicious devices and packages that were mailed to current and former high- ranking government officials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Current and former ranking government officials? He couldn't even name Barack Obama or Bill and Hillary Clinton. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised. We know he regularly trashes Hillary Clinton at his political rallies. He never misses a chance to diss Obama.
In fact, two officials telling CNN tonight that the president did not even bother to reach out to Obama or the Clintons or others. He didn't even bother, even as a courtesy or to update them on the status of this investigation. (AUDIO GAP) I think making this promise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My highest duty as you know as president is to keep America safe. That's what we talk about. That's what we do.
[22:10:00] The federal government is conducting an aggressive investigation, and we will find those responsible, and we will bring them to justice, hopefully very quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And earlier today at the White House, it was the right thing to do, to say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I just want to tell you that in these times, we have to unify.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Unity is not the word that comes to mind with this president, especially when it comes to the targets of the bombs. Not only Obama and the Clintons and CNN, but former Attorney General Eric Holder, Congresswoman Maxine Waters, former CIA Director John Brennan, and businessman George Soros. Listen to some of the unifying comments he's made.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Fake as hell, CNN. The worst. Hillary is a very dishonest person. If you look at the things she says, I mean they're so dishonest.
I think Brennan is a very bad guy. And if you look at it, a lot of things happened under his watch. I think he's a very bad person.
And of course, the legendary low I.Q. Maxine Waters.
(CROWD CHEERING)
TRUMP: Low I.Q. person.
It was very polarized under President Obama, unbelievably polarized under President Obama.
He'll go to a person holding a sign who gets paid by Soros or somebody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Today, President Trump also said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We have to come together and send one very clear, strong, unmistakable message that acts or threats of political violence of any kind have no place in the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, hearing a statement like that, hearing that statement, you have to ask, who are you, and what have you done with President Trump? Well, unfortunately, Donald Trump brought his campaign rallies into the gutter, advocating violence while running for president. Remember when he said this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I love the old days. You know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? They'd be carried out on a stretch every, folks. The guards are very gentle with him. He's walking out like big high fives, smiling, laughing. I'd like to punch him in the face, I tell you.
If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously. OK? Just knock the hell -- I promise you I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.
Get him out. Try not to hurt him. If you do, I'll defend you in court. Don't worry about it. Part of the problem and part of the reason it takes so long is nobody
wants to hurt each other anymore. There are no consequences to protesting anymore. There used to be consequences.
I would have been out there fighting, folks. I don't know if I would have done well, but I would have been boom, boom, boom, beat the--
(CROWD CHEERING)
LEMON: I can hear the chorus of defenders now. They're saying this. That was political theater. He wasn't the president then. He doesn't really mean it. What about the rally just last week, the one where he praised Montana Congressman Greg Gianforte, who as a candidate body slammed a reporter just for asking a question about health care?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Any guy that can do a body slam, he's my guy.
(CROWD CHEERING)
TRUMP: He's my guy. I shouldn't say this because I'll -- there's nothing to be embarrassed about. So, I was in Rome with a lot of the leaders from other countries, talking about all sorts of things. And I heard about it. And we endorsed Greg very early. But I had heard that he body slammed a reporter. And I said, this is terrible. He's going to lose the election. Then I said, well, wait a minute. I know Montana pretty well. I think it might help him, and it did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I want you to listen now to what my colleague, Jim Acosta, who was covering the rally, said about that.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: When the president made that joke about Greg Gianforte assaulting Ben Jacobs, I looked over to the crowd. There was one gentleman, a Trump supporter in the crowd, who was doing pro wrestling moves, doing body slam-type gestures in the crowd.
So, the crowd was obviously eating this stuff up, and people wonder whether or not there's a cause and effect, whether or not the president's rhetoric, you know, plants seeds of violence in its his own supporters, in his own crowds. I think it was pretty evident there that the crowd was loving every minute of this when the president was joking about assaulting reporters at this rally tonight.
LEMON: And at tonight's Wisconsin rally, President Trump said this about the current state of politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:15:02] TRUMP: There's much we can do to bring our nation together. For example, those engaged in the political arena must stop treating political opponents as being morally defective.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You know, that's an interesting concept because at his campaign rallies, the president normally says this about Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I need your help this election day, November 6th, to stop the radical Democrat mob in their quest for power. The radical Democrats have turned into an angry mob.
You don't hand matches to an arsonist, and you don't give power to an angry left-wing mob, and that's what the Democrats have become.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Some in the right-wing media, well, they are already spreading the idea that the bombing attempts are a plot by Democrats to shore up their base before the midterm elections. Seems to be taking root.
I want you to take a look at this photo. This photo is from outside the debate, from the Florida governor -- governor's race tonight. One supporter of Republican candidate Ron DeSantis carrying a sign that says "Democrats, fake news, fake bombs." I wonder where she got that idea? Sad state of affairs right now.
I want to bring in now CNN White House Correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, who is in Wisconsin, and Senior Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez as well, who joins us from Washington, D.C. Good evening to both of you. Kaitlan first, can you tell us about the reaction of the president and the White House tonight, from the White House? What's going on?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, inside the White House, they are really trying to separate the president from anything to do with these attacks today, Don. We've seen that multiple times. We've had multiple calls from White House officials saying the president has nothing to do with this. His rhetoric has nothing to do with this.
They are trying to put as much distance between that as they can, and they're saying essentially that what the president has said before, those clips that you just showed, are not the reason some crazy person did what they did today, or crazy people did what they did today.
Now, the president sought to come out here. He called for unity. He said whoever is responsible for this, he wants to bring them to justice. But a lot of people are also focusing on what he turned to there at the end, when he went after the media, saying they needs to be -- they need to be the ones who set the tone, who are civil, and don't publish false attacks on him.
Of course, Don, we have known for the last two years that we've covered President Trump that he often reads any kind of reporting on him that is any way negative as false, not as accurate, but he just believes it as false, that it is the media pitted against him. And that's what we saw reflected in those remarks tonight. But then,
Don, later on we did see a more subdued President Trump. For the first time in a very long time, as someone who comes to these rallies pretty frequently, President Trump did not bring up Hillary Clinton, someone he often brings up during these rallies where you often hear the crowd chant lock her up, and we did hear the crowd chant that when earlier speakers were here tonight before President Trump got onstage. That didn't happen tonight.
We also didn't hear the CNN sucks chant, which has become something that happens regularly as these rallies whenever the president typically points to the media, those who are back here in the back of the room, talks about fake news, goes on his usual rant against the media. That was also absent tonight.
And, Don, he kept repeatedly pointing out that he was on his best behavior, saying look how nice I'm being. Look what I'm doing, because he did have a more subdued tone during his remarks tonight.
LEMON: Evan Perez, breaking tonight also, authorities are seeking a suspicious package addressed to former Vice President Joe Biden. What can you tell us about that?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Don. The authorities are actually trying to track down a package that was addressed to Joe Biden and it apparently got returned because it was misaddressed. There was a mistake on the address, or it was incorrectly addressed.
And so now the authorities are trying to track that package down because in retrospect, it appears to match some of the characteristics of the other devices that have now been confirmed as pipe bombs. So that's what's going on.
At this point, the authorities there in Delaware at the home of the former vice president actually went there to his house to see if they could find anything. There was no device there found. No package was found there, but it is something that is still being looked at, still being investigated because of the concern that there could be a package somewhere that, again, matches the description and the characteristics of these other pipe bombs that we've seen now in the last couple of days.
[22:19:58] LEMON: Speaking of the other pipe bombs, what else are we learning about the bombs?
PEREZ: So, we've learned that the devices have a lot of things in common. Obviously, they bore the label of Debbie Wasserman Schultz as an address. There you see a picture of an X-ray. This was an X-ray that was described to me earlier today by law enforcement. You see some wires.
What I'm told is what they found, at least in analysis of the initial bombs, is they found some kind of a sulfur material inside. That is the material that would have actually exploded. There's also at least in one of the devices that they examined so far, Don, they found shards of glass.
So, whoever put this together was trying to make them perhaps even more deadly by putting projectiles into the devices. Now, these are rudimentary, crude devices. Whoever made this perhaps could have gotten a recipe for this off the Internet.
But make no mistake, these are real devices, and they could have hurt somebody. And as you pointed out, you know, they may have been addressed to John Brennan or to somebody else, but these are typically handled by mail carriers, clerks in the mail rooms.
So, someone could have gotten hurt, and that is a great big concern for the authorities that are investigating this tonight, that somebody could get hurt, perhaps because there's additional other devices that are still making their way through the system, through the mail, and could show up in the next couple of days, Don.
LEMON: Just because they're crude doesn't make them any less potent. Thank you, Evan. Thank you, Kaitlan. I appreciate your reporting this evening. We're going to discuss Trump's condemnation of political violence after spending years stoking it right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump calling for an end to political hostility tonight sort of. At a campaign rally in Wisconsin, not canceled in light of the assassination attempts on two ex-presidents and a former secretary of state, among others, the president made no acknowledgment of his own heated political rhetoric.
He went on to say disagreements should be settled at the ballot box, stopping short of accepting any responsibility that he said we have to stop treating political rivals as morally defective.
I want to bring in now Brian Stelter, David Gregory and Philip Mudd. Good evening to all of you. I've been watching everyone all day. I appreciate all of your comments. David, I've got to say you have been so honest, so candid today, so spot-on. I was riveted watching you, and I thank you for your coverage.
DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you.
LEMON: But I want to play this absolutely because the president refused to take any responsibility tonight for his heated rhetoric he has been spreading. In fact, he had the gall to attack the media. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The media also has a responsibility to set a civil tone and to stop the endless hostility and constant negative and oftentimes false attacks and stories. Have to do it. Have to do it.
(CROWD CHEERING)
(END VIDEO CLIP) [22:25:08] LEMON: So, blame the media, Brian. I mean, people could have been killed today, and this is part of what he says? This is his response?
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: He may not know what the nation needs, but he knows what his fans want. And I think tonight at the rally that he's speaking to his fans. He's speaking to that base that wants to hear him, yes, condemn political violence, but then turn around and say it's partly the fault of the press or it's partly the fault of the press that this happens.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: Or that people are out there feeling these extreme and crazy emotions.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: I think that's what he was doing. It's as simple as playing to the base.
LEMON: Yes. So, in his attacks on the media, David, he also says that all sides need to come together. I mean, what did you think of this?
GREGORY: I thought a couple of things. One, it's striking to me if you look at the totality of his comments that he seems to play against type all the time because part of his comments were what a president should say under those circumstances, to condemn acts of political violence--
STELTER: Exactly.
GREGORY: -- to make the point that we cannot demonize each other. We cannot make moral judgments of each other in this tribal political context. Those are the things that were clearly prepared for him but that he wanted to say because there's a part of him that wants to be presidential, that wants to recognize that the presidency is bigger than him, the commercial real estate guy, the rough and tumble guy from Manhattan, that he's got to be bigger.
But, you know, I'm willing to engage in all kinds of press criticism. I'm willing to take responsibility for our role writ large in the political culture. I'm not willing to have this conversation with the leader of the free world who cannot own his own behavior and his own rhetoric, which has broken every norm that I've ever covered in politics over the past quarter, you know, 25 years.
LEMON: Listen, Phil, I want to ask you about something that David said earlier, and I was applauding when watching. This false equivalent about people who are exercising their First Amendment right to protest. And I'm not talking about people being violent. I'm not talking about that.
But people who are going up to their Congress people and to the people who represent them and voicing their opinions. Comparing that to this potential -- it's an act of terrorism. It's just beyond the pale. The two are not equivalent, Phil.
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: You've got -- let's make this really simple, Don, and I've heard the conversation all day. I agree with David. If the president had come out and said, you know, we all, myself included, have to look in the mirror, we in the media, I've made mistakes, including on your show, have to look in the mirror and make sure we're careful about what we say. But there's a difference between saying I disagree--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And we apologize for them.
MUDD: Yes.
LEMON: And we own them.
MUDD: What I did was wrong.
LEMON: Right.
MUDD: But there's a difference between saying, I used words that were too aggressive and the president saying, as a 72-year-old leader of the American public, saying this month it's OK to body slam a political candidate.
Let me make this clear. When I was seven years old in grade school at the Epiphany school in Miami, Florida, if you got involved in a fight during lunch, a body slam, you got an hour after school, and you got a 500-word essay.
And you were told, including in a message to your parents, a 7-year- old should never do that. And we have American parents today saying a 72-year-old president is OK for saying it's really funny to body slam a political reporter. How is that possible, Don? Let's not make this too complicated.
LEMON: Listen, we're going to talk more about the president's response tonight and the false equivalents of people who are exercising their First Amendment right to an act of terrorism. We'll be right back.
[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:01] LEMON: So President Trump ramping up his attacks on the media tonight, suggesting it's -- the media is contributing to what he calls endless hostility. This comes hours after a pipe bomb was sent right here to CNN, so back with me, Brian, David, and Phil. David, let me ask you. Do you think it was appropriate for the President to continue to hold this rally tonight on a day when someone tried to kill two former U.S. Presidents, former Secretary of State, a former attorney general, and a congresswoman?
DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: No. But I am kind of well past being surprised by, you know, this President's approach to those kinds of political norms. You know, what I think -- you know, as I so often react to this President, I am willing to give him his due when I think he does the right thing. I thought he said some of the right things earlier today and even tonight.
But you end up wanting more. You wish he could accept more and be more self-reflective, more Presidential. I think it was completely inappropriate -- by the way, he said something about the press, inappropriate to go after the press. I mean, you know, there's a long line of people who want to do that, and that's fine. And we often have it coming to some degree.
People always complain about the press. Presidents always complain about the press. By the way, the press's job, the media's job, is not to create a tone in this country. The media's job is to cover power and seek accountability, to ask tough questions, and to do it fairly. We have our credibility issues, and we have to be credible with our audience.
That is incredibly important to us. We are not responsible for creating a tone. He creates the tone. Politicians create the tone. We are part of that context, but our job is to try to hold leaders accountable. And so for him to try to dictate what we ought to be doing, he should do his own job, which should not include injecting a level of toxicity into public discourse as he does, even when he has legitimate grievances with the press or political opponents.
Nobody thinks this is child's play here. We get it. But he's taken it to a different level.
LEMON: Yeah. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you to a certain level. I know Brian feels the same way that you feel about -- he's done with being surprised. Brian, you say this President's never going to change. I agree with you. But the moment we stop being outraged by this, the moment we stop pointing it out, the moment we stop wanting the person who is supposed to be our leader to do better, I think is the moment that it's all lost, Brian.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right. The only thing that's going to change, though, is the political environment or the political conditions where President Trump operates. So if former Presidents or other political leaders spoke out, if corporate leaders spoke out, if others spoke out, and some have today, but if more spoke out, they are the ones that could make a difference.
The CEO of our company here, Warner Media, sent out an e-mail to staff. He said look, all the folks targeted today, CNN, but all these political leaders, they're all elements of the American democracy. Forget about liberal, conservative, forget about left and right. It is about American democracy. That's what brings everybody together in this situation.
LEMON: Right.
STELTER: And our President, Jeff Zucker, the head of the network here today, said the White House does not get it. They don't get how serious Trump's attacks on the media are.
LEMON: Yeah.
STELTER: That's true. They don't understand how serious words are and how much words matter.
LEMON: David, what did you want to say?
GREGORY: I just think -- I don't disagree with that. And I certainly agree with Jeff Zucker's reaction today, because the critical point is that words matter. A President's words matter around the world. We've just been talking about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, a prominent journalist living in America, working for "The Washington Post."
And again, the question that has not been answered is why does the President think the Saudis thought they could get away with it, to do that, to embarrass an incredibly important ally like the United States? Does he really think about that question? I think he ought to. But the other piece of this in the media, we have -- I am not saying we shouldn't be outraged where it's appropriate.
[22:35:17] But we have to allow room to understand why these attacks on the media writ large resonate the way they do. Because there's a certain amount of people who are willing to say, yeah, he's telling it like it is. They may not subscribe to violence. But they say, yeah, he's telling it like it is because the media is out of control, or they're willing to compartmentalize and say, yeah, I don't agree with any of that crap he says.
But, you know, he's on to something in other places. I think part of our job is to say you can't compartmentalize. You can't allow yourself to compartmentalize because words matter. Because -- Phil's made this point earlier today, these fall on ears. I think the President is full of it when he talks about how he hates the media. It's all a -- it's BS honestly. I have been around him.
LEMON: It's a game.
GREGORY: Nobody loves the media more than this guy, and everybody on the panel knows that.
LEMON: Right.
GREGORY: But he's stoking that resentment among people who don't -- who aren't in on the joke, his joke. They're not in on it.
LEMON: Yeah. And no one wants to be accepted more by the media, more by celebrity, more by prominent or bold names than this President, who used to, you know, call in and be his fake own PR person. But, Phil, I want to get you in. But before I let you respond I just want to play this. This is more from the President tonight. He said this right after attacking Democrats on taxes. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And by the way, do you see how nice I am behaving tonight? This is like -- have you ever seen this? We're all behaving very well, and hopefully we can keep it that way, right? We're going to keep it that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Phil, he wants kudos, seriously?
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Well, I tell you, Don, this is a rare moment. I am going to be the naive idiot from the CIA. I am 56 years old. And I will believe this until I am 112 if I make it that far. I remember when I was evacuated from the White House on 9/11, watching George Bush, who was not liked by a lot of Americans.
But George Bush with a megaphone at the World Trade Center, uniting every one of us with comments that any American would say. I am with him. He didn't bring us lower. He brought us higher. Whether it's this President -- and I thought he should speak tonight, because I naively expected that he would try to pull a George Bush.
Whether it's this President or the next or the next, I still believe that there will be American Presidents in the face of disasters who will look at us and say, the American dream lives, and you can do better. I guess I am the naive guy. I didn't see it tonight. But after two years of this, I still thought it would happen. I am sorry.
GREGORY: But he did -- but in part, and I was there, Phil, when the President Bush made those remarks at ground zero. And I think that was a different circumstance. But your point is just as right. And I think the President did say some of those things. And what confounds me, where I still don't understand him, is that there's a big part of him that wants to be that conciliator, who says, yeah, you're right.
I should say these things at a rally, and then can't keep himself from saying the other part about, oh, yeah the press has a duty here as well. That's the part I still can't understand.
LEMON: Yeah. Yeah. And listen, you watched it. Part of it I watched on closed captioning. And you're saying, OK, he's saying all the right words. He's saying all the right words. And then all of a sudden, he goes into the blaming of the media part. And that's where it goes off the rail. So we have to end it there, gentlemen. Thank you. I appreciate all of you. I am glad that we all are here to be working together. Thank you all. Have a great evening.
The manhunt is on tonight for the individual or individuals who are responsible and who sent the pipe bombs. What investigators know and what the bombs tell us about the person who made them. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00] LEMON: We are back now. And we have more breaking news tonight to tell you about. Authorities are trying to track down, track down a package addressed to Former Vice President Joe Biden that may have similarities to the packages that were sent to the Clintons, to the Obamas, and to here at CNN earlier today. This is all as the manhunt continues tonight for the individual or individuals behind those explosives.
Chris Swecker and Jim Maxwell are here, both formerly with the FBI. Gentlemen, I thank you for your expertise in advance and thank you for joining us. Chris, the fact that the targets were people the President has criticized. What does that tell you about the individual or the individuals who made these bombs?
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION: Well, everything I have seen points to a demented individual. And by definition, I mean when you do this sort of thing, you've got some sort of mental problem. And, yes, these are iconic Democratic figures. If there's a political motive to this, then by definition it is terrorism. If there were detonators on those bombs, those bombs would be considered weapons of mass destruction.
So the FBI, of course, is looking at this very closely right now. And they've got plenty of evidence to work with.
LEMON: Considering what you know so far, have you looked at the devices, because I have been hearing all day, and we've heard this before in these situations that bombs have signatures. Any idea if this is a lone wolf operation, or was this a group of individuals who came together, who are working together to do this?
SWECKER: Is that for me, Don?
LEMON: That's for you, Chris, yes.
SWECKER: Yeah. They're identical bombs from what I can see, same packaging, same six postage stamps, same crude labels. It looks to me -- and mis-addressed to at least two people. It looks a lot to me -- and you know, I think a lot of people that I have spoken to agree at this point. It's either one individual, one lone demented individual, or someone who is being assisted by a small group.
But I don't see this as being a very sophisticated operation. The bombs were not sophisticated. I mean the only thing lacking on the packaging was a big sign that says bomb on it, because it was cylindrical in shape, in an envelope, easily profiled in a mailroom.
LEMON: Jim Maxwell, I just want to put up some x-ray images of two of these devices. What can investigators learn from these?
JIM MAXWELL, RETIRED FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, Don, these are classic pipe bombs. They're a rudimentary device. But what we learned at the Boston marathon bombing, they were rudimentary devices made with low explosives and they were devastating. So in close quarters, a device like this can be very effective. Based on the x-ray that I have seen and the information that's been released so far, the chances are this was a low explosive.
And it looks like it was electrically fired. In other words, low explosives are sensitive to heat, friction, and electrical charges and static charges. And they're introducing an electrical wire inside the pipe through a battery or some other power source. It's not clear what that package attached to the pipe is. But, you know, you can speculate that it's something to do with a power source and a switch.
[22:45:03] And before I get into this any further, Don, I am glad that these things didn't initiate. I am glad you and your staff are OK there at CNN. And it's very fortunate that these things never really initiated and caused any serious damage. I know it's a traumatic event, but there is a good side to this, that these things did not go off.
LEMON: Thank you for saying that. I appreciate that, Jim. Chris, you know the package that was sent to CNN, apparently delivered, you know, by courier. The package sent to Soros was also delivered by hand. Is that a big lead to investigators?
SWECKER: I think so. And I think with respect to Soros, they've had that for two days now. I would hope that the forensics on that were well under way by today. So they're going to have a head start there. As we know, there are cameras everywhere. Perhaps Soros has some surveillance cameras. I would guess so if it was his residence or business. And, you know, unexploded ordnance or unexploded device like this is a forensic bonanza.
There's hairs and fibers, fingerprints, possible DNA, tool marks, the materials can be traced back to the manufacturers, possibly even to the same store. I have seen that happen. So yeah, I think that this case is pretty mature even at this point.
LEMON: Yeah. Jim, here's the big question, the one that I had all day. All of these devices, none of them detonated. What does that say?
MAXWELL: Well, once they do a final analysis on these devices, you know, the word that came out initially is that they were viable or working devices. But when the lab takes it apart and, you know, takes a good hard look at it, they'll determine whether or not these devices really could function. And that's something the lab is going to have to determine.
And it's going to take some time to do that. But the biggest piece of information here right now is putting together a timeline of when these devices were delivered. Some of them went through the U.S. mail. Some of them went through private carriers. It would tell me that we can establish a timeline on these devices, when they were initiated, when they were brought into the system, either the mail system or private carrier, will determine whether or not we're dealing with one or more people.
You know, you can't be two places at once, and if these devices were sent at the same time from the same location. I know -- my past experience with the anthrax investigation, the U.S. postal service is -- does a wonderful job of tracing these packages. And we can get some idea where they originated from, where this all started.
LEMON: Jim, Chris, thank you for your time. I appreciate it. The President is putting the responsibility on everyone, everyone but himself to tone down the heated rhetoric. What does that say about his leadership? Presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin, she is going to tell us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00] LEMON: President Trump, as we have been reporting, blaming the media for the division in this country, just hours after a bomb was sent to CNN. What does that say about his leadership? I want to discuss now with Doris Kearns Goodwin. She is a Presidential historian and the author of Leadership In Turbulent Times. I'm so happy to have you on to talk about this and help us digest what's going on. What did you think of -- first of all, the attempted attacks and how the President responded.
DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Clearly, the attempted attacks presented a crisis for the President. And that's a moment when you have a great opportunity to bring your campaigning mode to the presidency of all the people. I mean here it was an attack on two Presidents. And suppose he had gone ahead and said here was an attack on two Presidents and mentioned them by name, and saying that's an attack on every President, from George Washington to Donald Trump.
Suppose he had said that the attacks on CNN and people who are here were an attack on the entire free press. Can you imagine what we would have felt if we heard that. Everybody is hungry for that kind of real unification.
LEMON: He can never say that. Your book is a matter of fact, is entitled Leadership In Turbulent Times. Did he handle this as a great leader?
KEARNS GOODWIN: I think he started to, and I think he wanted to. I think it was a risk to go before the rally. Although, he pulled it off in front of the rally. He's been able to talk to those people and persuade them that maybe he was resetting his presidency, and the time was coming for him to shoulder the blame as well as everybody else for the terrible hateful divisive rhetoric. This is as bad as it's even been in my lifetime. And I am pretty old.
(CROSSTALK)
KEARNS GOODWIN: But it's really hurting our country. And the President has certain moments when he can change that, and perhaps today was one of those.
LEMON: I found it interesting that you say that this President, President Trump and Teddy Roosevelt were dealing with similar situations as they came into office, but that they handled them differently, correct?
KEARNS GOODWIN: It's the clearest echo of today, Teddy Roosevelt's time. He talked at the beginning of his presidency about the rock of democracy could flounder if people in different sections, regions, religions, and races thought of themselves as the other rather than as common American citizens. The industrial revolution had shaken up the economy much as tech and globalization have. The gap between the rich and poor, you have immigrants coming in from
abroad. You have people feeling like the working class was being hurt by the elites. People in the farms felt that people in the cities were sinful. So with so much like today and yet Teddy Roosevelt was able to use his powers as President and his communication style to heal those divisions in the country.
He talked about a square deal for all, the rich and the poor, the capitalist and the wage worker. But Donald Trump has talked about a deal is only good if one side wins. My side wins. Both sides win. That means nothing.
LEMON: And yet here we are. We survived. But since they handle it differently -- I know people always ask you, are these the worst of times. You always say no. Do you think we can recover from this, because again, you said they both handled them differently?
KEARNS GOODWIN: I absolutely do think so. You have to think we can recover from this. (Inaudible) if it was the beginning of the civil war and more than 600,000 people would die, and we wouldn't even know if our country would survive. I think we were alive at the beginning of the depression and we weren't sure whether capitalism would even exist. And yet, we had the right leader, but more importantly, we have citizens who were awakened to the challenge. That's what we need today.
[22:55:14] LEMON: You heard what Joe Biden said, right, that he said that this President was more like George Wallace than George Washington. Do you agree with that?
KEARNS GOODWIN: I don't like to make those kinds of labels. I don't think that helps, because our responsibility now the is to expand the number of people who feel they need to be awakened, young people, women who are running for office, teachers who are running for the first time. You know Abraham Lincoln was called a liberator after what he did with the emancipation proclamation.
(Inaudible) was anti-slavery movement that did it all. It was the progressive movement (Inaudible) the civil rights movement under LBJ. That's what we need, a movement to reform our political structure which is broken. And our citizens have done much bigger things before. They can do it again. I know they can.
LEMON: Listen. I know Jon Meacham. We're going to talk about your book. But Jon Meacham says that we need someone who appeals to our better angels. And I think that you agree with that sentiment even in your book and what you're saying now.
KEARNS GOODWIN: And what we need is a certain point in most leaders' lives, the ambition for self becomes an ambition for the greater good. They get transformed. And once that happens, then the country follows charge. And we're ready for that. And a leader could be ready for that. We've been through much worse before. This country is not one you're ever going to bet against, right?
And what's the point the point of being pessimistic. You have to believe. You imagine ourselves in a different time when we're not waking up every day to a new scandal, and there's not some breaking news when terrible things are being said about everybody else. We've come through these cycles. America is not as fragile as we think.
LEMON: I am so honored to have you on. The book is called Leadership In Turbulent Times. Doris Kearns Goodwin, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
KEARNS GOODWIN: You're welcome.
LEMON: Stay warm. We'll be right back.
