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Don Lemon Tonight

Pipe Bomb Sender Now Under Custody; President Trump Denied Any Connection to His Fan Bomber; Sayoc Attacked Prominent Dems In Social Media Posts; President Trump Attacks Media At Rally Tonight. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired October 26, 2018 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: And the crowd roars when they hear him say this. But Mr. President, what does it tell you that you can't get even half the country behind you despite a robust economy? Maybe if you can show people that you can be better for them, you may do better with them.

Thanks for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: I'm glad you said that. He's not going to change, and I think we should probably stop looking to him for some -- to be some sort of moral authority or the barometer to morality. It's just not part of who he is.

So, you remember how the former president at the White House correspondents' dinner, he had sort of his Obama interpreter.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: So maybe we should look to former presidents for inspiration and for guidance instead of this president. Every time something happens, maybe George W. Bush or maybe Barack Obama should come out and give a speech to the nation and then just go back to their lives.

CUOMO: They're usually shy about getting in the way, and I don't think you can quit on a president.

(CROSSTALK)

HOWELL: I'm not saying -- I'm not saying -- well, I'm not quitting on him. He's just not capable. So, we should stop pretending that he's going to be something he's not. He's not a unifier.

CUOMO: No, but you can continue to--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You can point it out.

CUOMO: Yes. You can continue to try to urge him to see what his responsibility is.

HOWELL: Yes.

CUOMO: He took an oath, you know?

LEMON: He's not a unifier. He's a divider. He has no moral authority or integrity. He only cares about anything -- he only cares about things that he can capitalize on, whether it is expedient for him politically or monetarily. That's it.

CUOMO: But because I don't believe he's burdened by deep convictions--

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: -- I think it might work for him that he's like, man, I still can't get to 50 in the polls and like, the economy is on fire and nobody is attacking us. He's never seen metrics like that. If he does just a little bit of history, he's going to see nobody's ever been in the jam that he's in in terms of the polls with the kind of economic success he's having. Why?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And I think the reason why is because America doesn't accept harsh strength, not the majority of us. You'll get a lot of us maybe at times, but you won't get enough of us.

LEMON: I told you today on your radio show why I think he doesn't expand. You said he was there and with a group of African-American business leaders, right?

CUOMO: Yes, at the White House.

LEMON: Why he doesn't expand -- why doesn't he try to bring more people in, more people of color, more diversity. And I told you what I think. It's because if he broadens his tent, if he allows more people in, that opens him out to scrutiny, and all he wants is sycophants around him, people who adore him.

So, the more people you bring in, the more criticism you bring in. They're going to want you to care about issues that are important to them. They're going to challenge you on issues that are important to them, or they're going to challenge you on your weak spots. He doesn't want that, because why? Because weak people don't want to learn. They only want to be praised and adored. That's it.

CUOMO: There's a price of staying small and playing small ball, though. You know, he'd be betting a lot even though he would be obviously, you know, a president running again, it's hard to beat a president running for a second term. It's rare, especially if they have a strong economy.

But we've never seen anyone underwater like this going into his second term, and he's got to think, will I get lucky a second time? He got lucky the first time.

LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: The way they won that electoral college, you know, was a really very specific set of program meters.

LEMON: Electoral fluke.

CUOMO: And he lost the popular vote and by a lot. Does he really want to go that way again in.

LEMON: Yes. Speaking of lucky, I'm lucky to have you. I'm lucky to have all these people around. I saw Wolf Blitzer and I will second, third, fourth, fifth, whatever he said today about the thousands and thousands of people who work for CNN and who touch CNN every day.

They're hard-working people just like everyone else. They don't -- they should not be demonized. They should not be threatened with violence or even death just for going to work. It's not the American way. And you're a good person. We're all good people. We all work really hard. We all work hard to bring the news to you.

We don't have an agenda. We're just pointing out the truth and the facts. The facts aren't on this president's side, people say to some people, we're being biases. No, facts are not biased. Facts are fact. Truths are truth. If it's not on your side, that's your problem, not ours. It's not up to us to be adoring fans of the president.

CUOMO: Yes. That's the job, and you know what?

LEMON: Critical eye on whatever -- on his policies and what he does, his actions.

CUOMO: A hundred percent. I agree with you. And there's been a rebound effect. It may work at the rallies for him, trashing the media. But, boy, has it redoubled our resolve to do the job the best we can.

You know, the president gave birth to let's get after it. That is the response to the challenge from him. If you're going to come at the media and try to shut down a free press, the free press will do its job to the best of its ability every damn day.

LEMON: I can only imagine today when after -- what is it? At 3.14 this morning when he tweeted out the so-called bomb and that it was a false flag or whatever he was saying and other people are saying--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: After watching the replay of your show?

LEMON: And that -- after -- because we did a segment. You know, do 9/11 and you blame all these terrorist acts. No one blamed the terrorist acts. We did a completely fact-based fact check on who was responsible for most of the terrorist attacks in this country, and Republicans and Democrats are responsible.

[22:05:12] But most of them, the vast majority of them, are from right-wing extremists. And as we said today on the radio, do you know what the biggest terror threat in America -- do you know what it is?

CUOMO: Not you.

LEMON: Who is it?

CUOMO: Right-wing extremists.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Right-wing extremist.

LEMON: Right wing--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: White it rhymes, and in that case, it's OK.

LEMON: White right-wing extremist. Yes. But people don't like to talk about that. We want to demonize Muslims and Hondurans, and people from Latin America who are seeking a better life. We want to say that their dream, my gosh, there are terrorists among us. The biggest terror threat in the United States are white, right-wing extremists. Those are the facts. So, I'll leave you with you that.

CUOMO: I cannot counter.

LEMON: Ponder that, my friend. Thank you for being here. I'm glad you're around and all of my colleagues as well. Have a good weekend.

CUOMO: You're a good man. See you soon.

LEMON: Thank you.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

So, let me start by this, by saying this. Kudos to federal investigators for nailing down a suspect in connection with at least 14 packages containing pipe bombs that were mailed around this country.

Fifty-six-year-old Cesar Sayoc was arrested this morning in southern Florida. He is charged with five federal crimes that could send him to prison for decades. The FBI says that they have been, they have confirmed at least one of Sayoc's fingerprints from one of the envelopes.

And investigators also impounded his van, which officials believe he was living in. Did you see that van? That he was living in, excuse me. Did you see that van today? I'm distracted because I watched it, and I was in awe because I was trying to figure out what was on the side of that van, and I couldn't get a vantage point.

As they were driving it, towing it down the interstate, the tarp fell off. And you could see it was covered in photos of President Trump and Vice President Pence. A lot of other images were on there too, OK? There it is on your screen. Barack Obama on a tricycle. Hillary Clinton, Eric Holder, and others covered with red bull's-eye targets.

And in the lower left corner, you see that, there's a sticker that says "CNN Sucks" under the headline dishonest media.

By the way, if you haven't been on Twitter or social media, that's what it looks like. That's what all of the feeds of the Trump trolls look like, all the MAGA folks, that's what their feeds look like, just like that with all of the conspiracy theories and how much they hate the -- my gosh, the terrible right lib tards.

OK, there it is right in front of your face. That's what we deal with all of the time, that what you see on your screen right there. The virulence, the toxic toxicity of what you're seeing right there.

And at about the same time investigators were moving in on Sayoc, President Trump was on Twitter downplaying the seriousness of the assassination attempts against former Presidents Obama, assassination attempts against former Presidents Obama and Clinton and others.

Clearly, he is annoyed that media coverage of the pipe bombs is taking the focus off the upcoming midterm elections because you know why? He tweeted this. "Republicans are doing so well in early voting and at the polls, and now this bomb." See that's in quotes. "This bomb stuff happens."

Bomb stuff. That's how he refers to the potentially deadly bombs that threatened all of my co-worker's lives, everyone who works in this building, former presidents, a former attorney general, sitting member of Congress, Senate member, a sitting member of the Senate, and on and on. But the FBI director, Christopher Wray, was taking it very seriously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, DIRECTOR, FBI: IEDs were sent to various individuals across the country. Each device consisted of roughly six inches of PVC pipe, a small clock, a battery, some wiring, and what is known as energetic material, which is essentially potential explosives and material that give off heat and energy through a reaction to heat, shock, or friction. Though we're still analyzing the devices in our laboratory, these are not hoax devices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Not hoax devices. Remember all those people? This is a hoax. This is a false flag. My God, this is a hoax. Not hoax devices. That means that Sayoc meant business. He was serious in his attempt to do harm to his intended targets. He also appears to be something -- not something. He is, he professes to be a major Trump fan who took things way, way too far. But the president would only say this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:05] DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not see my face on the van. I don't know -- I heard he was a person that preferred me over others, but I did not see that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He didn't see his face on the van? Everybody was watching that van today. Come on, man. But when asked if he disavowed Sayoc's support, he didn't answer the question at all but said he is not responsible for anything.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There's no blame. There's no anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: We know from his social media that Cesar Sayoc has attended numerous Trump rallies. We're going to run through some of them for you. This is a selfie that he took at one in Florida, OK? This is October of 2016, just weeks before Trump won the election. At that rally, Trump slammed Hillary Clinton with his usual harsh and combative language.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The Clinton machine is at the center of this power structure. We've seen this firsthand in the WikiLeaks documents in which Hillary Clinton meets in secret with international banks to plot the destruction of U.S. sovereignty in order to enrich these global financial powers, her special interest friends, and her donors.

(CROWD BOOING)

TRUMP: So true.

(CROWD CHANTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But he didn't stop there. He went on to bash what he calls the corporate media and the establishment that he claims has rigged the system against working-class Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They will attack you. They will slander you. They will seek to destroy your career and your family. They will seek to destroy everything about you, including your reputation. They will lie, lie, lie, and then again, they will do worse than that. They will do whatever is necessary. The Clintons are criminals. Remember that. They're criminals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Now, we all know that incendiary language is standard at Trump rallies from before the election, and at his rallies since he took office.

Cesar Sayoc attended another Trump rally, this is in Florida after Trump became president, holding up that sign right there that reads "CNN Sucks." I wonder where he got that idea from. Here's what the president said at a rally in North Carolina earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Political violence must never, ever be allowed in America, and I will do everything in my power to stop it.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: In recent days, we've had a broader conversation about the tone and civility of our national dialogue. Everyone will benefit if we can end the politics of personal destruction.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: We must unify as a nation in peace, love, and in harmony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But then moments later, riling up his supporters, saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: To be successful in life, you have to believe in what you say. And I can't believe that many of these Democrats that have gone so far left, I knew them. And when you say -- well, first of all, we started the wall. But more importantly, many of these Democrats, almost all of them, including Schumer, including crooked Hillary, including everybody--

(CROWD BOOING)

TRUMP: -- many of these Democrats approved the wall in 2006.

(CROWD CHANTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Lock her up. On a week like this of all weeks, on this day of all days, lock her up. By the way, just a little fact checking, I can't let this go. He said they started the wall. They've not started the wall. The wall is not started being built. They're repairing sections of old fence. That's what they're doing.

But those people probably believe, my gosh, they've started the wall already. Whoa. They have not started the wall.

There's nothing wrong with the president promoting his wall. It is his signature policy. But he just said it's time to end the politics of personal destruction, and then he reflexively uses the ugly moniker of crooked Hillary and doesn't ask his supporters to stop chanting lock her up. Disgusting.

[22:15:01] Why? Why? I don't understand it. I don't understand it. All this as a man who sent his defeated political opponent, two men who have held the office of president before him, top Democratic officials, top intelligence officers and who have served this country with distinction, prominent citizens, and this news organization bombs in the U.S. mail. He's under arrest tonight.

Sayoc will be held responsible for his actions, but Donald Trump, he needs to take some responsibility for his own words. The investigation into Cesar Sayoc is moving very quickly, and tonight we're learning a lot more about who he is. We're going to talk about it next. Phil Mudd is here. Ryan Lizza as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump calling for unity tonight and suggesting an end to the politics of personal destruction. Back on the campaign trail, leading a rally in Charlottesville, North Carolina, he then proceeds to slam the media and the Democrats, all while appearing to distance himself from the suspected package bomber who is in federal custody tonight charged with five federal crimes.

I want to bring in now Phil Mudd and Ryan Lizza. Gentlemen, good evening to you. Thank you for joining us.

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Don.

[22:19:59] LEMON: So, we're seeing the disturbing images on this man's minivan and the numerous threats he made on twitter. He threatened me. Phil, he also threatened you.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Yes, he did. I was walking around CNN this this afternoon, and somebody walked up and said, you know, this guy is on your Twitter feed. And this goes back to, I think it was August 24th. It takes you a moment or two to realize -- and I get hate mail as I'm sure you do.

But to realize someone who was just arrested for the potential of murdering maybe even dozens of people if any of those had blown up in a mailroom, for example, actually--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Two presidents.

MUDD: That's right. Actually, I said whatever that is a couple months ago, I want you on the list and you should hug your loved ones. I mean, you walk away and say every time you walk down the street, every time you go into a cafe, more people approach you than approach me. But they come up to me everybody day. You got to look at them and say when they put their hand out, we're in an environment we got to say, is this person OK?

I was running a week ago and somebody is riding by on a bike. You're fake news. That person rides by once a week on my trail. What happened if they stop? What am I supposed to say?

So, I mean, the environment that we live in, if you put out tweets as the president does, you have to assume -- and I'm not saying the president is responsible, but you have to assume, if you've got 55 million Twitters, there's going to be some of them that say, it's OK, I can do some of them.

LEMON: The whole fake news and someone yelling on the other, I really could care less about that. But the other part is the dangerous part. There's a difference between the two because as a citizen, it's your right. You can yell at me.

MUDD: That's right.

LEMON: I'm a public figure by default. I didn't put my name on a ballot, but by default people yell at me and say things all the time. Either I love you or you know, I hate you. More love than hate, but still you never know. But physically harming someone is a completely different story and we shouldn't equate it.

MUDD: No. But what I mean is when you see someone who has absorbed that, do I assume that every single person that says that -- I've been out on the streets here with you and others doing stories and somebody is 10 feet away yelling at you fake news, I don't -- you can yell whatever you want. But the question you have to ask is when are they going to approach me and do something?

LEMON: Yes. Right, right. So, let's just be clear about this, Ryan. This is precisely what people feared it would be. The culmination of the president's rhetoric, some deeply disturbed person taking it upon himself or herself to commit these terrible acts. Mostly himself. Women don't usually do this stuff.

LIZZA: Yes. And just before I -- before I get to that, Don, I do want to add one thing about the flip side of what Phil is talking about. I think it's important for viewers to realize that at least for me, for every, you know, annoying person on the internet that says something awful, you know, I encounter an e-mail, someone in the street, a taxicab driver who, you know, recognizes me.

And, look, I'm a very small part of the CNN family, so if they're recognizing me, they're recognizing you guys a lot more, who says, you guys are doing a great job.

LEMON: Thank you.

LIZZA: Thank you for what you do there.

LEMON: Don't stop, Yes.

LIZZA: So that's the -- I do think in all of this talk about the dark side of what's out there right now in the political environment -- and it's worse than ever -- there is a backlash among a lot of people of goodwill who are constantly reinforcing and sort of have our backs. And I know you guys experience the same thing.

LEMON: I'm so glad you brought that up because we always look at the negative, and we have to in this particular instance because of what happened. But there are so -- you know, masses upon masses of people who approach me every single day and say, thank you so much for what you're doing. Our democracy depends on journalists right now, and we stand behind you. We appreciate you. We prop you up. And I appreciate those folks. Thank you for that. Go on.

LIZZA: Just to turn to the darkness for a second.

LEMON: Right.

LIZZA: Look, honestly, were any of us surprised when this story broke the other day? I mean, I was texting with someone at CNN, you know, booking one of the shows, and we were having a conversation. I was asking if everyone's OK, and we were going back and forth like of course this was going to happen.

We all knew and know that the heated rhetoric was going to lead to something worse than just a nasty tweet. Obviously, thank God, no one was actually hurt here.

But this has been years in the making when everyone who pays attention has been predicting that the constant negative attacks, when you constantly call someone the enemy of the people, you know, sometimes I think some of us think, he's just joking or, you know, he doesn't mean it, or we understand maybe it's a wink and a nod. A lot of people don't think that way. When you say enemy of the people, they think enemy of the people.

So, I don't think any of us were deep down completely surprised that someone who is a little unstable would do something like this given the political environment right now.

And there's online radicalization going on among American political factors. We've always talked about that in the context of Al Qaeda and ISIS. We have to start talking about online radicalization in our own country by partisans, and I think that's tough to wrap your head around because it's not that far different than kind of the political radicalization we always think of as a sort of offshore problem.

[22:25:06] LEMON: I think it's closer to, you know, objects in this mirror are closer than they appear, right? I think it's closer to us than we realize now and this is bringing it all home.

But this is what I want to ask you guys. When you --would you ever in your life go to a rally -- not just go to a political rally. I mean, people you can do that. But if someone is encouraging you to chant negative, awful things, would you ever do that? Would you ever yell something negative and just--

MUDD: Well, you know, let me be honest. I've said things on air including on your show I'm embarrassed about. I should not have said them. There's one litmus test you apply, at least for most of us.

Thank you, mom, Mrs. Mudd. If my mother wouldn't approve of it, then don't do it. It's a pretty simple litmus test. If you tell a seven- year-old, I went to a strict Catholic school where the nuns at that time were a little more into corporal punishment than they could do now. But if you bullied somebody in the school yard, you get detention. So, the message would be if you're going to give a child detention for

bullying or hitting somebody in a school yard, you might want to tell the president or somebody at a rally, if you don't want a child to do it, you probably shouldn't do it yourself.

LEMON: Most of the people I know--

(CROSSTALK)

LIZZA: Yes. They wouldn't do that.

LEMON: No, most of the people I know, Ryan, if we were, unless they're at a sporting event, like, right?

LIZZA: Yes.

LEMON: But if that happened some place, most of the people I know would say, hey, don't do that. What's wrong with you?

LIZZA: Yes. I was just going to say the last time I can remember something close to that was yelling the Red Sox suck at the 1986 World Series.

LEMON: All right. That's another story.

LIZZA: With the Mets in Shea Stadium. But no. I mean, look, I cover elections, so, you know, I can't -- the idea of going to something and screaming something like that is a little foreign to me.

But having been to a bunch of Trump rallies in 2015 and '16, you see, you know, kind of odd ball political characters all the time. Like that van didn't look particularly out of place to me.

LEMON: Yes.

LIZZA: You see shirts and crazy posters and stuff, you know, all the time. And politics attracts weirdos. There's no doubt about it. Would -- you know, does every one of those weirdos do what this guy did? Of course not, but something pushed him over the line, and, you know, to take this back to the president and his role here, is he at some point has to look in the mirror and think how simple it would be for him to rein this in, how simple it would be for him to just--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's not going to happen, Ryan. He would never do that. I got to go. He would never do that. And if -- let me just say this. If you're -- especially at this time, if you're at a rally screaming hateful things right now, check yourself. And if you're at a rally and somebody is encouraging you to do that, check them and then yourself.

Thank you. We'll be right back.

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Authorities uncover an enormous number of social media posts made by Cesar Sayoc, who often went after Andrew Gillum. Of course Andrew Gillum is the mayor of Tallahassee. He is also the Democratic candidate for governor of Florida. Mayor Gillum joins me now.

Mayor, I appreciate your time. What a time we're living in and what a day. First I want to get your reaction to the arrest of Cesar Sayoc right in your home state of Florida.

ANDREW GILLUM, DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Yes. Well, obviously, I mean, my prayers and thanks go out to those law enforcement agents and agencies that worked together to make this arrest, and thankfully none of those devices detonated to take any innocent life, but clearly this is extremely unfortunate. We have seen the continued and increased degradation of our political discourse around the country.

I think -- I can't help, but to evoke President Trump as a part of one of the individuals who has set such a -- I think, an abysmal tone. And I think the leadership begins at the top that he really has to take some responsibility for lifting the dialogue, of ending this demagoguery that leads to individuals like this particular suspect to result to violence.

LEMON: Well, here's what he wrote earlier. OK. You tweeted this today, mayor. You said, it is fortunate that the evil intent of the bomber has not been realized. I call on all political leaders to cease the dangerous rhetoric of hatred and division that is poisoning our society. And then I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but at tonight's rally, the President continued to attack the media, some Democrats. Words matter right now in particular, right? Don't you think?

GILLUM: Well, I tell you, first of all, this President never, you know, fails to take an opportunity to disappoint. Every time where we have a moment in this country where he can demonstrate actual leadership, where he can rise above the partisan fray, he goes deeper into the gutter. And then he wonders or at least feigns to have sympathy for those who find themselves in the crosshairs of this kind of dangerous rhetoric as if he didn't himself perpetuate these kinds of incidences through his, again, very dangerous rhetoric.

LEMON: What should he be saying right now to unite the country, mayor?

GILLUM: Well, I tell you, beyond what he should be saying, how he ought to be conducting himself. This President ought to be figuring out ways to bring Americans together. Instead, day after day, time after time, tweet after tweet, he looks for opportunities to divide us.

Donald Trump's rhetoric is dangerous. We've seen that on full display not just today, but in other instances. He complimented a Congressman who body slammed a journalist. He in his rallies running for President, continuously from the podium spoke violent words that resulted in people being violently assaulted. Now he is the President of the United States, and despite my strong disagreements with him, his public policy, and his disposition, I still believe that the President can be the President. I still believe that he can rise to the occasion.

LEMON: Yes.

GILLUM: If he chooses. He certainly has shown to rise to the occasion anytime it fits his political moment. This now is a moment where Americans need a President to speak words of comfort, words of affirmation, and I think words that would unequivocally decry violence in any form, especially in our politics.

[22:35:20] LEMON: Well, speaking of words, right, and some of the words that this suspect Sayoc used against you, he also mentioned you in many, many social media posts along with your picture. In one post he referred to you as a George Soros puppet. Soros, of course, is a prominent Democratic donor who received one of the bomb packages. When did you become aware of these posts, because I'm mentioned and threatened in one, and I was not even aware of it? There are so many of them out there, but when did you become aware of them?

GILLUM: Yes. Well, I became aware this afternoon actually when a journalist reached out after the suspect was named, deliberately obviously not using names here, but they asked me what I thought after they came upon information that I was pretty prominently featured in his social media, not in a good way obviously, and whether or not we had taken any steps in our own home.

And obviously my first concern went to my family and to our campaign offices. We quickly connected with authorities, had our offices swept, ensured that our mail was being rerouted so not to put anybody in harm's way. We have no reason to believe that any packages were sent to me, but obviously we want to take all appropriate and necessary steps to not only keep my family safe, but to keep our offices, our supporters safe.

LEMON: Mayor Gillum, we're glad that you're safe, you and your family. And you're right. It is --

GILLUM: And you as well.

LEMON: Thank you. We're very lucky that none of these devices went off. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Stay safe.

GILLUM: Thank you, Don. God bless.

LEMON: Former apprentice contestant Kwame Jackson made a prediction over two years ago. The President's toxic rhetoric had the potential to create the next Dylann Roof. What does he have to say about today's arrest? I'm going to ask him right after this.

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I'm going to bring in now Kwame Jackson, he is a former apprentice contestant who is a leadership strategist. Good evening, sir. So glad to have you on.

KWAME JACKSON, RUNNER UP SEASON ONE, THE APPRENTICE: How are you doing, Don? LEMON: I'm doing well. Way back on this show in July of 2015, you

made this prediction. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Everyone is entitled to their opinion in America. That is what we all celebrate and under the flag, you know, continue to promote, but what you're not entitled to do is create a toxic environment that creates, you know, this whole poisonous ecosystem where people hear these dog whistles, Mexicans are taking over, they're all rapists. Black people are out to get your money, your jobs, whatever it may be, gay people are ruining traditional marriage.

All those things are of course a dog whistle that creates this toxic ecosystem that weak minded people act on. Dylann Roof, Tim McVeigh. Those are the people who hear those things and then go out and have direct action. Everyone says, I don't know how that happened. I didn't contribute to that discourse. I didn't say, I'll take back America. And you owe to the people to give that negative ecosystem.

LEMON: And you think that Donald Trump is doing that?

JACKSON: I think that by doing the things that he is doing in repetition with such vehemence, that he is creating the next Dylann Roof. He is creating the next Tim McVeigh, and he is going to -- when it explodes, say it wasn't me. I'm not the person who should be guilty here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And that is exactly what's just happened. How do you feel in light of what happened today?

JACKSON: You know, Don, this is not a matter of me wanting to be right. This is unfortunate that I'm right. And really what I want to leave people with right now is the old subway terrorism safety axiom. If you see something, say something. What I mean by that is don't wait for the package to explode. I tried to speak out very early on and, I encourage America as individual citizens, if they see something, say something. If you hear toxic rhetoric, say something. If you see someone bullying someone in a Walmart, because they speak Spanish, say something. If you're going to do something to make a better America, that starts with you. And so that is all of our charge here in America to make a better country.

LEMON: You think that would have changed anything in this situation?

JACKSON: I think if more people would speak out against the rhetoric, and I think if people from the Republican side of the aisle would do more than just have lip service, whether it's Senator Flake or whether it's, you know, the House of Representatives leader, I think that those folks are giving a lot of lip service to negative actions that they've seen Trump do. And you know, this notion of accountability versus responsibility and intent versus impact, those are the things that really need to be talked about, and that is where we're not holding Trump accountable for his actions on creating on the broader tone.

LEMON: Listen, I want to play this sound bite. But I'm sure you've heard it, and I'm sure -- most of our viewers. If you haven't, basically he said the media needs to take responsibility tonight at a political rally, on a night of all nights. The media needs to take some responsibility. Is this consistent with the Donald Trump you know, scapegoating, saying it's something else, it has nothing to do with me?

JACKSON: Well, there's always projection with President Trump. You know, the way that I like to think about it, I'll give three examples in terms of accountability versus responsibility. Let's say you have a coach, and the team isn't playing defense. The team isn't scoring any points. Is it the coach's responsibility? Does he set the tone? Let's say you're at a party. No one's dancing. Is it the deejay's responsibility for playing bad records? Do we hold them accountable? Or let's say lastly, you're the principal at a school and all the kids are failing and the marks are low, and the school is decrepit. Is the principal accountable? So why is it that we cannot hold the principal accountable -- I'm sorry the president accountable for setting the tone the way we do any other occupation that comes from the top?

LEMON: The buck stops here. Right? The old Harry Truman.

[22:45:00] JACKSON: Yes, the buck stops here, the old Harry Truman axiom, and even Lincoln who said -- setting the tone after the civil war that we're going to have charity towards all and malice towards none. He set the tone for reconstruction and reconciliation for a country. That is leadership. And what I see with Donald Trump is a total absence of that.

LEMON: Kwame, I love your candor. I appreciate you. Thank you. Have a good weekend.

JACKSON: Thank you, Don, for having me.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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LEMON: In the last few days, parts of conservative media pushed the idea that the bombs were part of a false flag operation intended to hurt the President's standing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a wretchedly incompetent bomber who didn't know how to make a bomb, someone who wanted to embarrass President Trump.

[22:50:02] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will repeat it's a high probability that the whole thing is set up as a false flag to gain sympathy for the Democrats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The left feels they're losing on many levels and I feel they're planting the devices just for to play the role of victim. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, we have the worst right wing bomb maker in

history, or we have a false flag operation where it's a left wing type of operation to create hysteria.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because two weeks before a major election who's going to look like the bad guy here? The Republicans.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fascinating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That theory fell apart completely with the arrest of Cesar Sayoc, but immediately, incredibly, that didn't stop one prominent radio host from insisting with no evidence that there was still something fishy about it all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: None of the stuff on that van, the stickers and the decals, very little of it looks faded. Meaning it doesn't look like it's been there very long. It certainly -- this guy's van has been parked outside, he is been driving around in this thing. We have inclement weather here in south Florida, there's been some rain, but it's a hot, baking wet sun. And even if these stickers are plastered on the insides of the windows, there would be some fading of this stuff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: How do these people sleep at night? Put up this tweet, time stamp. This is from November 1st of 2017. Someone tweeted this out, thank you, Leslie Avernell, said, #happynovember, from a man who probably thinks the earth is flat.

Bakari Sellers is here, Scott Jennings as well as, Rick Wilson, the author of the book "Everything Trump Touches Dies."

Scott, I do have to give you credit. Good evening. Yesterday on the show, you said it was wrong to speculate that this was the false flag. Why do so many of your fellow conservatives continue to go down this rabbit hole, this -- it's just -- I don't understand it.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think in the case of some of the right wing provocateurs that you played there, the people who are in business to have audiences, they feel like they have to do it to keep the audience and it's what their audience expects them to do. And so I wonder if it's more about marketing and business than anything. It's harmful to the country, it's wrong, it doesn't help move us forward as a Republican Party or as a country.

The President is not responsible for this guy's decade's long record of being violent and unhinged. But what he is responsible for, is making it clear, and what all of his allies should be responsible for is making it clear that he will not tolerate people in his name operating in this way. He doesn't need these people. He doesn't need this guy. He doesn't need these unhinged folks to succeed. He is the President of the United States. But when you go out and perpetuate the idea that somehow this is all a huge hoax, that is not the message you're sending, and it overall hurts the President. So, I think his allies need to condemn this guy, condemn this false flag theory, condemn these crazy conspiracies, it does not help the President or his party.

LEMON: I will tell you what's not helping the President is himself, Bakari, because, you saw the tweet with the bomb, like it wasn't real. The President tweeted this out, and you know, Scott said this was all about the business, right, it's all about the platform and the business, he said Republicans are doing so well in early voting and at the polls and now this bomb stuff happens in the momentum greatly slows, news not talking about -- politics.

Well this is all about the business for him, it's not about the morality of the country, it is not about bringing the country together, it's all about the business of politics and what happens come November 6th.

BAKARI SELLERS, FORMER HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: Well, what we saw with the President's tweet, I'm not sure if that was the 3:14 a.m. tweet or not, but throughout his succession of tweets we saw the President inch very close to what some people call these right wing cooks, the Candace Owens, the Lou Dobbs, the Rush Limbaugh's when, in fact, they are actually mainstream Republicans and they echo the same sentiments of the President of the United States.

You know, I want to say something that may be somewhat bold. But at what point do we acknowledge the fact that this bomber was radicalized by the President of the United States? And I think that we have to have, as your guest before us came on and said, we have to have some sense of responsibility. The President goes unchecked with his verbiage. When you want to pay somebody's bond after they knock somebody out at your rally, when you want to praise a Congressman for slamming a reporter, when you want to say that CNN is the enemy of the people, when you want to call out Hillary Clinton by name and Barack Obama by name and then somebody does these things there is a correlation there.

[22:55:11] And this individual, and this is a very bold and maybe pronounced statement, but this individual was radicalized by the President of the United States. And if the Republican Party doesn't do something to stop this cancer from metastasizing, it's going to continue to be a cancer in the United States and spread throughout, where we all have to live in apprehension and fear. That is what terrorists want and this terrorist won.

LEMON: Rick, I've got to -- I can't -- I don't understand why Rush Limbaugh would say something like that. And I don't understand that the President takes no ownership for his words and people pretend that one has nothing to do with the other when you look at the side of the van. It's every ugly meme that you see on the internet, and it's every single slogan and refrain from the President. "CNN Sucks." Lock her up. And on and on, but this President is nothing to do with it, nothing, nothing to do with him. RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Don, the disconnect of any moral

culpability, or responsibility with Trump was obviously going to happen. There's no circumstance under which he will ever take responsibility for his rhetoric, his tone, his words. And the difficulty I'm having today is that this guy's social media feeds, and this guy's van, you know, they're not all that far off of thousands and thousands, maybe millions of Trump followers online.

This guy's social media feed looks just like 90 percent of the trolls in my timeline, the same boomer memes, the same, you know, theories that Hillary Clinton is a brand pizza gate, the same craziness and the same incitement from this President that makes every part of our politics this existential battle. And it is good versus evil and all behavior is excused and you can do whatever you have to do to support the great leader.

This is a guy who has absolute culpability for this. You know, we used to complain a lot about Islamic clerics in the Middle East radicalizing young men into becoming ISIS or Al Qaeda fighters by using social media. Donald Trump has the largest social media presence of any person in the American political landscape and he uses it in a way that is leading inevitably to radicalization of people like this.

This guy isn't the only one that is out there. There will be more, because this President will never take responsibility. He will never rise to -- he has the title of President, but never wears the mantle of President. He will not rise to the test. He never will. He takes it as a critique in some way when he is told there are lines you can't cross as a President. There are things you ought not do as a President. There are messages you ought not send as a President and this is a man who is disconnected from that.

And the media infrastructure that is grown up around him like barnacles around him, these people have monetized this hate and monetized this radicalization. They love it, they eat it up with a spoon. And so you're going to get more of it.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you all. We're out of time. We'll be right back.

SELLERS: Thanks, Don.

JENNINGS: Thank you.

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