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Don Lemon Tonight

Suspect Arrested In Connection With 14 Pipe Bombs; Trump Calls For Unity, Then Trashes Opponents At Rally; Trump Calls for Civility, Then Attacks Media; FBI Says The Bombs are Not Hoax Devices After Trump Refers to "Bomb Stuff" on Twitter; Lemon Compares 'Teleprompter Trump' to Real Trump; NBC Cancels "Megyn Kelly Today;" CNN Hero Brad Ludden: "Adventure can be healing." Aired 11-12a ET

Aired October 26, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon, authorities nabbing the man believed to have sent at least 14 bombs to prominent Democrats and critics of President Trump, just hours after more devices were intercepted in the mail. 56-year-old Cesar Sayoc, here's some of what we know about him right now.

Sayoc has a long criminal record. Was estranged from his family and was apparently living out of his van in Florida. The windows of that van, covered with a number of disturbing political stickers showing the faces of Democrats painted with bull's eye targets, there are also a number of decals in support of President Trump. As the country breathes a sigh of relief, the national conversation about the white hot political tone and toxic rhetoric still very much front and center right now. This was President Trump on Wednesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Those engaged in the political arena must stop treating political opponents as being morally defective, have to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Reasonable, even Presidential, but then he said this tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: But more importantly many of these Democrats, almost all of them, including Schumer, including crooked Hillary, including everybody, many of these Democrats approve the wall in 2006.

CROWD: Lock her up, lock her up, lock her up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: No, John McCain moment there, hey, excuse me, don't say that. Come on, everybody, really, stop it. This is not a moment to be saying lock her up. This is not a moment to return to the politics of the past. He didn't do that. Why not? I want to bring in now Juliette Kayyem, Stuart Kaplan, the former FBI

agent. Juliette, so many questions. Let's talk about the investigation. OK? They're using DNA evidence, investigators are, and fingerprints and pings from a cell phone tower and they caught this guy quickly and we're thankful that the men and women are keeping us safe. When you look at this suspect, his criminal history, what does it tell you?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I mean, I'm just going to state the obvious, there's no point in being shy about it. This was someone who was animated by a political animus toward Democratic leadership or establishments that are align with the Democrats, he had issues before. None of them were violent, it seemed like. Didn't seem particularly political before 2016. And then gets radicalized.

I mean, I think, you know, what Bakari said before, we shouldn't be ashamed of people become radicalized that is why they are violent. And in my world in counter terrorism, there is actually a term for this, stochastic terrorism, it is basically a way of describing a radicalization process that happens through media and mass communication that inspires random acts of violence which are utterly predictable, because, of course, people are going to respond to violent statements, but the individual act itself is unpredictable. Who, in fact, is going to do something bad is unpredictable.

[23:05:08] So, this is a well-known phenomenon in counterterrorism and terrorism studies that it applies to the United States, it is also not surprising. You know, this happened during the abortion debates and violence -- or anti-abortion violence in the '70s and '80s. So, you know, we all -- we have a tendency to worry about sounding too political. But, you know, this is a phenomenon that is been studied. It's an academic phenomenon, it's a counterterrorism phenomenon and we're seeing it with the President of the United States.

LEMON: I think we should stop it. Let us not be too political. This was politics, did you see the side of his van? Let's not pretend that this wasn't about politics. Come on, especially -- Juliette -- I am not saying that to you. I am not trying to say, to get into an argument with you. I mean, just overall, we have to stop being concerned about being so political.

KAYYEM: Of course it's political.

LEMON: Yes, because it is what it is.

KAYYEM: We have to state it, it is what it is. That is what I think, I think people get a little bit like, oh, you know, he did this, and we -- I mean, I think he just --

LEMON: It's on both sides.

KAYYEM: The phenomenon of -- right, it's a phenomenon of radicalization. Someone who might otherwise not have been violent, becomes violent, because of mass communication in media. We've seen it with ISIS. We have seen it anti-abortion activists. This is a phenomenon that is well-known and I think people, you know, just -- it's a studied phenomenon. That is all I'm just saying about it.

LEMON: Stuart, I am going to bring you in, look at this van, the suspect drove, you saw the images, Trump and Pence, and Democrats in the cross hairs and CNN sucks, you know, pictures of my colleague Van Jones in there, there is Michael Moore, Hillary Clinton, there is a bunch of people in there. What does it say to you about the motive here? What does it say to you when you look at this?

STUART KAPLAN, FORMER FBI AGENT: I mean, look, Don, I have to be candid, and I'm not trying to alarm the viewers, and I think Juliette would agree with me, there are hundreds of these type of crazies out there. And while in this particular case you have a crazy who was pro-Trump obviously targeting the Democratic Party, or people that were affiliated with the Democratic Party, I think Juliette would agree with me that the secret service, the FBI, the law enforcement intelligence community, every day unfortunately deals with many crazies who think about and plot out the thought of trying to assassinate this sitting President.

And so there's a balance. We don't hear about those cases, because they're dealt with very delicately. And very quietly, but there's a balancing out there, equally on both sides. And I agree with you, Don, what has been put up of late is outrageous. It's certainly fueling the divisiveness that we see. It's gotten to the point where it's at the boiling point, it's at the tipping point, but I want in fairness, though, if you talk to the secret service, the FBI, people that are on the intelligence collection, you know, who collect this type of information, every day they're going out and making contact with people that are considering or thinking about assassinating this President. And that in and of itself is troubling. So I just -- you know, in fairness that is the world we're living in.

LEMON: Juliette, what do you say to that?

KAYYEM: I get that. Don, let me ask you something blunt, how many people watch your show on any given night, 2 million, a million?

LEMON: Yes, a million or so people in and out.

KAYYEM: The President of the United States has 30, 40 million Twitter followers only. So the idea that it's the both sides isn't right. I mean, I know you didn't mean it that way. But in the sense that it's happening on both sides. What we need to look at now is the phenomenon of a leadership and the leader with a massive, massive ability to use social media and media to target or ping -- he never says it, right, but there's an atmosphere that is created that then radicalizes others, that is a known -- you know, known phenomenon, right? It's a radicalization phenomenon.

And I think the evidence in this case that is quite strong for, you know, the sort of idea of how he became radicalized is that the people that were targeted, people like Brennan and Clapper, like those weren't household names until Donald Trump sort of took them on. And I think we just -- those linkages will be found in the investigation.

LEMON: Very good points. Thank you. I appreciate it. I need to bring in a doctor now. And Xavier Amador, a forensic psychologist. Thank you, sir, you listened to this, you heard what Juliette especially when she talked about, caustic terror as well. So, you weren't able to join us on the show last night, but you sent your thoughts on a profile for the suspect. And you nailed it.

[23:10:04] You said the simplest possible explanation is usually right. You predicted a male harboring a lot of hatred and anger, encouraged by the President's rhetoric. How did you come to know and come to these conclusions?

XAVIER AMADOR, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I've worked on a lot of terrorism cases. I'm a clinical psychologist, but also a forensic psychologist. My very first case was the Theodore Kosinski, the Unabomber who sent 23 bombs over 20 years, injured -- I'm sorry, injured 23 people over 20 years, killed three people. And other domestic terrorism cases as well as foreign domestic terrorist cases.

And, you know, there are certain categories, but in the United States, with respect to domestic terrorism, we do see people who are vulnerable to radicalization. Whether it's because of mental health issues untreated mental health issues, I want to emphasize that, or simply, you know, failure in life, in disempowerment, in feeling like they have no power whatsoever, when they hear a leader issue what is essentially a (inaudible), in the Islamic world, the extremist Islamic world, we hear (inaudible) from leaders about going out and killing others.

I'm not saying President Trump did that, but the rhetoric clearly -- I don't want to be around the bush either. As a psychologist I've been very concerned about the rhetoric for the last two years where Donald Trump is offering to pay for the defense of -- for example, the "Time" magazine report, John McGraw who punched a protester in the face, Donald Trump said he obviously loves his country. In this "Time" magazine interview. That protester said next time I see him I'll kill him. That kind of rhetoric normalizes violence.

We are not talking about negative rhetoric, let us stop using the wrong word. These are threats of violence and encouraging acts of violence that we've been hearing. There's a lot more I could say about it. But frankly, these are my immediate thoughts. The groundwork has been laid for vulnerable people to be frankly radicalized.

LEMON: All right. Let me jump in here to talk about something, you also said that he could very well have a mental illness. His attorney was on CNN earlier tonight who said he had known his mother for a long time, he'd known her 20 years, met her in Democratic circles or whatever, but he seemed to say that it was -- he seemed to agree with that assessment, that he wasn't all there, a former co-worker as well, said the same thing as well. So what do you think of that? Is it common to have mental illness in these situations?

AMADOR: I wouldn't say it's common. I will say this. And before I comment, you know, you had me on many times, I try to do my due diligence and my homework. When you look at what we know about Cesar Sayoc's life, many different jobs. I mean, walking out of -- I forget if it was a Walmart, with a cart full of merchandise that was one of his arrests. That sounds disorganized to me, living with his parents in his 50s, living in a van at the age of 56. That sounds like somebody who's not functioning.

If somebody's not functioning, I do start to wonder about brain disorders or addiction. Either one. And with addiction in particular, we have personality traits of blaming everyone and not looking at yourself. And really being caught up in hatred and anger and looking for a target.

LEMON: Can I ask you something, doctor? Because we did last night, we did our research and put it on the air on who becomes radicalized. Who's responsible for most terror attacks in United States, and the facts is bared out, it is right wing white radicalist -- radical.

AMADOR: Sure. Why --

LEMON: Why do most of the terrorist attacks in this country, what happens, what triggers a young, or just a white male, mostly white males, young or old, to become radicalized on the right and do -- and then to do an act of terror?

AMADOR: Make one quick comment and then I'm going to answer your question. There's two studies from the triangle center on terror as well as the anti-defamation league, many more Americans are killed by white supremacists than Islamic terrorists.

LEMON: Number one threat in the United States.

AMADOR: Fact. Exactly. What happens is, you typically see are young white men and older white men as well, there's actually kind of what we call a bimodal distribution, sorry for the research talk, but we see different spikes in acting on the ideology. And the ideology of white supremacists is a hateful ideology. There's no other way to describe it.

We are superior, they are inferior, and they don't belong either here or at the same table that we're allowed to sit at. And then of course, you know, we have a long history of what happens with white supremacy leading to violence and far worse than violence, but being disempowered is a big part of it.

[23:15:11] There's lots of ways to be disempowered psychologically. It's not just not having jobs. You have seen a lot of family histories of these men that have committed these acts who are nationalists in the cases I've worked on, you see a history of feeling misunderstood, feeling -- one case I worked on, he was kicked out of his church for spouting his political beliefs. He was spouting, there was too much vitriol. And he resented that and couldn't let it go. It just mushroomed into this larger conspiracy theory about the United States government, and led to a bank robbery, where a guard was killed, this man is now on death row, just waiting out of Oklahoma, and it all started with feeling disenfranchised, feeling powerless.

LEMON: Interesting. And they're somehow attracted in many cases to the Conservative Party. I would love to see studies on why that is, but listen, I've got to go.

AMADOR: It's a moth to flame. I mean you see a bright light that fulfills -- that matches what you're feeling inside and you're going to go right towards it, with the same result.

LEMON: Number one terror threat in the United States, what? The number one terror threat in the United States, doctor, is what?

AMADOR: Violent rhetoric, frankly, but in terms of populations, white supremacists.

LEMON: Thank you.

Just ahead, I'm going to talk to a woman who was threatened by Cesar Sayoc and how Twitter reacted when she reported it.

[23:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Pay attention everyone on social media if you know someone, OK? Rochelle Ritchie was on the receiving end of a threat on Twitter from Cesar Sayoc earlier this month after she appeared on Fox News. And it reads in part, we will see you for sure. Hug your loved ones real close every time you leave, should be your home, every time you leave you home. I want to bring in now, Rochelle Ritchie, thank you, spelling error there obviously on his part.

ROCHELLE RITCHIE, WAS THREATENED BY SAYOC ON TWITTER: He is a complete idiot, so.

LEMON: OK. So listen, I just want to read what you tweeted just today.

RITCHIE: Sure.

LEMON: You said, hey Twitter, remember I reported the guy who was making threats towards me after my appearance on Fox News, and you -- you guys sent back a B.S. response about how you didn't find it that serious. Well, guess what? It's the guy who has been sending bombs to high profile politicians.

RITCHIE: Right.

LEMON: Wow.

RITCHIE: Yes.

LEMON: Go on.

RITCHIE: It's frustrating. And it's -- it drives me nuts.

LEMON: When you saw him being arrested, what did you think?

RITCHIE: I didn't know. Like I saw the arrest and I was streaming it on my computer on CNN, and all the sudden my phone started blowing up were people saying Rochelle, you need to contact the FBI, contact the FBI, and I'm thinking to myself, why, and then I go on and I see that this guy had made these comments towards me, and I'm literally just stuck. Like what do I do? Do I contact NYPD? Do I contact the FBI? And I was angry, I was angry, because as we had mentioned before we came back from the break, I had reported this to twitter.

LEMON: I don't report a lot of things, but when they threaten your life, when it feels like a threat, you report it.

RITCHIE: Right.

LEMON: And you get that thing back this doesn't rise to the level of something (inaudible) --

(CROSSTALK)

RITCHIE: Right. It is not an abusive behavior. So what is abusive behavior? Is it going to take the bomb going off? Is it going to take my body or your body or somebody else's body being found in the swamp of the ever glades in order for Twitter or other social media, you know, Web sites to take this stuff seriously? This was a serious threat. And I'm not a high profile person like you. And I don't have -- when you think about the fact that he is been sending these bombs to the Obamas, the Clintons, look, I don't have a secret service vetting my mail for me, when I go to check my mail.

LEMON: Or security.

RITCHIE: Or security.

LEMON: Or someone walking with you. Twitter initially responded to your complaint saying thank you for your recent report, we have reviewed your report carefully and found there was no violation of the Twitter rules against abusive behavior. That is the one I'm talking about.

RITCHIE: Right.

LEMON: All right. In the past hour, this is what they have said, Twitter executives tweeted you an apology, they said an update, we made a mistake when Rochelle Ritchie first alerted us to the threat made against her. The tweet clearly violated our rules and should have been removed. We are deeply sorry for that error. Do you accept their apology?

RITCHIE: I do, I will accept their apology, however --

LEMON: They should do better.

RITCHIE: However, changes need to be made. This is not OK. They need to do a better job at ensuring that these sort of threats that are being reported by people are taken seriously. You want to know how long it took for them to do this little investigation after I sent and reported the tweet. Seven minutes. Seven minutes is how long it was between the times that I reported it to twitter about this guy and by the time they responded back to me to say we don't see a problem. Seven minutes.

LEMON: I think they do a cursory thing and they just look at it and say we don't think it's not a big deal.

RITCHIE: I think it is like automated. I think it is like an automated response where they look for certain words or something.

LEMON: Algorithm, right?

RITCHIE: Exactly. So it's just automatically responds to people. We live in a world now under this President where they have to take everything seriously. He is clearly responsible for everything that we are seeing right now when it comes to the political violence and divisiveness that we have in our country.

LEMON: Yes, twitter tonight saying they know they have to do better and they will do better. Let's hope so.

RITCHIE: Let's see.

LEMON: Thank you so much, Rochelle.

RITCHIE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: I'm glad you're safe.

RITCHIE: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate it. What happens when the President says something he doesn't really mean? Well, you got to hear the difference between teleprompter Trump and Twitter Trump, watch.

[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: -- by the way. To be fair the President did call for unity before the suspect was arrested today, but it was a, as he read, from a teleprompter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I just want to tell you that in these times we have to unify. We have to come together and send one very clear, strong, unmistakable message that acts or threats of political violence of any kind have no place in the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The teleprompter President speaking words others have written for him isn't the real President Trump. Here's what Trump said minutes later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: As part of a larger national effort to bridge our divides and bring people together, the media also has a responsibility to set a civil tone and to stop the endless hostility and constant negative and oftentimes false attacks and stories. Have to do it.

And by the way, do you see how nice I'm behaving tonight? This is like -- have you ever seen this? We're all behaving very well. And hopefully we can keep it that way, right? We're going to keep it that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And today right before authorities arrested a Florida man for sending the explosive devices to prominent public figures, Trump tweeted, showing what he's truly focused on, OK, he says, "Republicans are doing so well in early voting and at the polls, and now this "bomb" stuff happens and the momentum greatly slows - news not talking politics. Very unfortunate. What is going on? Republicans, go out and vote."

Well, Toronto Star's Daniel Dale, who we often have on this show, says it's a predictable pattern. First, the president reads a conventional statement prepared for him usually from a teleprompter. And then next, he begins to dial back, showing his true thoughts in a press gaggle or at a rally. And finally he blurts out his true feelings, often on Twitter. Some examples, you say? OK, here is President Trump on his best behavior about Christine Blasey Ford.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I thought her testimony was very compelling, very credible witness. She was very good in many respects.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And so here he is on Twitter, right? He says, "I have no doubt that if the attack on Dr. Ford was as bad as she says, charges would have been immediately filed with local law enforcement authorities by either her or her loving parents. I ask that she bring those filings forward so that we can learn date, time and place." And here's the real Trump days later at a rally.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I had one beer. Well, do you think it was -- nope, it was one beer. Oh, good. How did you get home? I don't remember. How did you get there? I don't remember. Where is the place? I don't remember. How many years ago was it? I don't know, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, so let's look at Trump's response to Charlottesville after initially failing to condemn the white nationalists that Trump -- Trump makes remarks about this, condemning the violence. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, Neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: And then here he is the very next day, showing his real feelings, saying there's good people on both sides.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures as you did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It's a pattern because then he doubled down, blaming the media.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They don't want to report that I spoke out forcefully against hatred, bigotry and violence and strongly condemned the Neo-Nazis, the white supremacists and the KKK. I openly called for unity, healing and love, and they know it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: How dare we put his own words on television, and play them back for everybody to hear? I want to bring in now Douglas Brinkley and Alice Stewart. Good evening. Doug, you know, it's really disturbing, it's a disturbing pattern, the president of the United States doesn't seem to be able to learn from his own mistakes.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, there's no love or understanding or unity. He's the most divisive politician in modern times, at least one that's made it to the top tier, and there's never been a president that works to divide the country as actively as he does.

He has a deep problem. If you're pro-Trump, he can't back away from you, he doesn't have the capacity. You could be a Lyndon LaRouche- style conspiracy theorist, but if you're willing to wear a "Make America Great" hat, trump won't distance himself from that person.

That's a great pity for the Republican Party because whether you're Dwight Eisenhower or Richard Nixon or Ronald Reagan or either of the Bushes, they would always stay away from the John Birchers (ph), from the extreme right people, from the cook fringe of the right because they knew they are toxic for the country.

Trump doesn't think about what's good for the country. His narcissistic personality says, who loves me? If you love me, everything else doesn't matter.

[23:35:02] That's what a true dictator, totalitarian figure does in American history. He fits the pattern.

LEMON: Alice, I find it interesting because you say teleprompter Trump is the leader that many people hoped that he would become. Can anyone make him realize that this kind of response makes him look smaller? He can't even say the names of the people who were targeted, or even reach out to his predecessors?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don, if they haven't done it by now, it's simply not going to happen, unfortunately. Look, the Donald Trump that ran for office is the Twitter Trump, the one that throws one liners out there and incites people to say lock her up and to chant and advocate for yelling at the media and the opponents and that's the person that ran for office, and people elected him and he became the president.

I, for one, thought that he would transform into this person, the teleprompter Trump, who is presidential and who like yesterday and today at times called for unity and called for peace. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that he's going to stay that way. I wish, in this time, that we can realize we've gotten to a point where the civility is out of control and we need to bring people together.

And, look, the call for the race to the bottom to end starts at the top and that would be President Trump saying look, we need to unify, we need to come together, and it's not just saying it once, it's saying it twice and three times morning, noon and night and letting his actions follow his words.

And I think the best statement we heard was out of Attorney General Jeff Sessions today saying that, look, we should all be able to freely advocate for our beliefs, but peacefully and lawfully comply with the results. I think it's great people have free speech. Let them say what they want. But we need to peacefully and lawfully understand at some point we're not going to get what we want.

LEMON: He needs to turn around, and people start, you know, saying those chants, you know, like "lock her up" or whatever it is, he needs to stop them and say not now, not right now. And he would earn -- I mean, he would get so much -- I think much more respect from people, maybe respect from people who didn't necessarily respect him in the first place. But again, let me play this. He said we had to tone down the rhetoric, Doug, and this is what he said about Maxine Waters at a rally tonight. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Maxine Waters, but I'm going to be nice tonight, so I won't say it. I won't say it. I won't say it. I'm going to be nice. I want them to say he was so nice tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is that a substantive change in rhetoric?

BRINKLEY: Well, you know, Don, he clipped back tonight somewhat, but he couldn't resist the Maxine Waters because this is major foil for him. And so he had to keep her in the mix, trying to please the crowd a little bit.

The conundrum that Trump has is, if he sticks to the teleprompter, you can feel it's sort of tepid, there is nothing remarkable about him. It's when the showman starts waving his hands. That's when people cheer and chant and he feeds off the love and the energy in the crowd. So unfortunately, he can't be a -- do a presidential speech.

LEMON: Yeah.

BRINKLEY: He has to resort to, you know, turning somebody into a demon figure and Maxine Waters is the one that his followers dislike the most.

LEMON: Yeah, one of his number ones. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. Megyn Kelly's NBC show canceled after her black face comments, but should she have gotten the job in the first place? That's a really good question.

[23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: NBC pulling the plug tonight on "Megyn Kelly Today." Kelly's future with the network and her $69 million contract is reportedly being negotiated in the wake of a firestorm over a black face Halloween costumes.

I want to bring in now Kirsten Powers. Kirsten, what a week when it comes to this story and Megyn Kelly. Her black face comments, by the way, just the latest in a history of controversial on air remarks. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, JOURNALIST AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Michelle Obama is back in the news. A conservative group is putting together an anti- Obama documentary that will reportedly include the clip of Michelle Obama saying a while back that for the first time in her adult life she feels proud of this country.

In slate they have a piece on dot.com, Santa Claus should not be a white man anymore. For all you kids watching at home, Santa just is white, but this person is just arguing that maybe we should also have a black Santa. But, you know, Santa is what he is. And just so you know, we're just debating this, because someone wrote about it, kids.

It's just a good policy, even if you know the cop is in the wrong, comply and complain later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So that was a Megyn Kelly that you worked with. Is it shocking to you this day and age that people didn't know, but a woman of Megyn Kelly's stature could be so ignorant about the history of blacks in our country and have her own network show and be the highest paid news anchor on television?

KIRSTEN POWERS, COLUMNIST, USA TODAY: Well, you know, the thing that has bothered me about it is she had a long history of doing these things at Fox News.

You know, you actually could run probably a five-minute clip with all of the different things that she did over time that were really harmful, and I think were particularly harmful to the black community, especially the way she talked about police brutality and dismissed a lot of really heinous things that were happening to black people.

[23:45:06] You know, also at one point referring to the black community as having a thug mentality and these kinds of noxious stereotypes. This was all known -- well, obviously it was on television. Everybody knew it. Everybody saw it. And yet it wasn't really something that prevented her from getting this perch at NBC.

And the thing that I have been focused in the column I just wrote is not so much about bashing Megyn, but saying, you know, obviously it is highly problematic that she is like this, but there's a system around her that really supported this and didn't have any problem with it.

LEMON: Let me read some of it. You write, "her meteoric rise could not have happened without the complicity of a system that is far too comfortable with racism, especially when it comes in a pretty white package."

POWERS: Yeah. I mean -- and I talked to people about it. It is like people will say, yeah, that's racist but, you know, and sort of move on. And now all of a sudden with the black face comment, everybody is acting like, oh, this is so horrible.

Truthfully, I don't know what you think, Don, but I don't think this is why she is being fired. I think she is being fired because the show is a failure and people at NBC don't like her and this is an excuse.

Because if you really care about racism, you would never have hired her in the first place unless she came to terms with it and apologized and made things right. Of course people can always apologize. And I want to say the other thing that's important is, I don't think that I'm the person who is so perfect on race and that I never make mistakes.

What I do know is I have enough people of color in my life saying to me, Kirsten, you have a position in the media as a white person and you need to start talking about these things. That's why I'm talking about.

LEMON: We've had a number of conversations, but we had one really heart to heart one night, remember that, when we talked about all these issues.

POWERS: Yeah.

LEMON: And I'm glad you said -- in the column, you said, "lord knows that I am far from perfect on the issue of race. I cringe at things I've said in the past and especially at how long it took me to grasp the concept of institutional racism. But I'm making the effort to inform myself and grow and learn from people who know more about this issue than I do."

Can Megyn Kelly say that? I thought that was a great way to end that article. So, I thank you for that. But this is what I want to talk to you about. You said -- you talked about how -- you said it was system around her that covered it up and you talked about white women, especially white women journalists, you said, who overlooked all of this.

You said, "white women journalists were some of the worst offenders, hailing her as a kind of feminist hero when she herself rejected that adjective." And then you go on and you talk about someone who says, "because you have to be a feminist for all women, not just women who look like you."

POWERS: Yeah. This is something I actually have only somewhat recently become aware of is this feeling -- you know, among some of the people that I quoted in my column, a woman Rachel Cargle, who is an activist and a writer. Austin Cheney Boun (ph) is another African- American activist and writer.

And talking about the really specific problem with white women and how white women feminists in particular oftentimes, you know, with Megyn Kelly, it became she's this feminist hero because she took on Donald Trump and so we'll just overlook all these other things and that's why feminism has to be intersectional.

It has to be not just about being a woman, it has to be also concerned about race. You just can't say, well, she looks like me, she's like me, and so I'm going to support her and I'm going to ignore about all these other people who are getting hurt by the types of things she's saying.

And the types of things she's saying, I have been told, you know, it's upsetting to me and it makes me angry, but to people who I've talked or people of color, they're like, it's really painful, you know, to read these things, to read the things that are in my column and that this was accepted and she was put on covers of magazines and it was literally whitewashed out of stories about her like it never happened.

LEMON: One more thing I want to read. You said, "most people think of the Ku Klux Klan when they hear white supremacy. But the term just means that whiteness is a supreme value which in the news media it is. As feminist writer Anushay Hossain noted to me, just the fact that Megyn Kelly feels she can have a conversation about race on television with three white people is a definition of white privilege. Before anything offensive was said, there was already a problem."

POWERS: Right. Exactly. The fact that she had a -- it never occurred to her or apparently any of her producers that they were doing -- actually sitting down to talk about racial issues and that's what that entire conversation was.

And it was just four white people talking about it without any consideration for the fact that they actually don't even know what it feels like. They don't know what it feels like to have somebody dress up like your culture or like your race, whether it's mocking or not, frankly.

[23:50:05] And so I think that it's -- I just think it's so important for white people who have positions in the media to be using them, those positions to not be doing that but actually doing the opposite, actually trying to make sure that all different kinds of people are included in the conversation and to be very constantly aware of the privilege that you have and to try to be an ally to people of color.

LEMON: Thank you, Kirsten.

POWERS: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate it. We'll be right back.

POWERS: OK.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Every fall, we honor 10 ordinary people who are making an extraordinary difference. We call them the "Top 10 CNN Heroes."

[23:55:01] But what happens after we shine the global spotlight on their incredible work? Well, for 2016 Top 10 Hero Brad Ludden, it means being able to expand his mission of bringing healing adventures to young adults with cancer to a whole new group of people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD LUDDEN, CNN HERO: In 2016, CNN Heroes featured us on an international stage and since then we've been approached by a bunch of different patient advocacy groups inquiring us whether or not our programs would apply to their population. Those conversations led us to believe that young adults with MS could benefit from this type of adventure-based healing.

We're excited to pilot our first program for young adults with MS. I'm pretty overwhelmed with how far the organization has come. I'm just so humbled by it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: To learn more about Brad's program, go to cnnheroes.com and who will be this year's top 10 CNN heroes? Find out this Thursday, November 1st, when they are revealed live on CNN's "New Day." Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

[24:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)