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Don Lemon Tonight
Top National Security Aide To Be Fired After Clash With Melania Trump; Trump Out Of Sight, But Tweeting, Takes Jabs At French President And Critics; CNN Sues President Trump And Aides For Pulling White House Reporter's Press Pass; Former First Lady Michelle Obama Starting Her Book Tour; FBI Statistics Show Hate Crimes Went Up 17 Percent In 2017. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired November 13, 2018 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Thanks for joining us. The news continues next on CNN.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight, I'm Don Lemon, thank you so much for joining us. An extraordinary turn of events. At the White House today, the First Lady Melania Trump forcing President Trump to fire a top aide on his national security team. It all happened very quickly. Early this afternoon the President took part in an event celebrating (inaudible) it is major cultural and religious festival observed by many Indians and Southeast Asians. J
Just over the President's shoulder was, there it is right there, there she is, highlighted, Mira Ricardel, a Deputy national security adviser. And just a short time later, the first lady's office released this stunning statement of rebuke. It's a position of the office of the first lady that Ricardel no longer deserves the honor of serving in this White House.
Well, tonight aides to the President confirm to CNN that Mira Ricardel will be fired. And it turns out Mira Ricardel feuded with the first lady, her staff, over Mrs. Trump's recent trip to Africa. One White House official accuses her of then leaking stories about it, during her first trip, the first lady said the following about her influence on her husband. And maybe she was telling us more about her role in this White House than we realize at the time. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources have told us -- sources in the White House that you are the gatekeeper that you tell him who he can trust and who he can't trust. Is that true?
MELANIA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S WIFE: Yes, I give him my honest advice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is been in office now almost two years. Has he had people that you didn't trust working for him?
M. TRUMP: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you let him know?
M. TRUMP: I let him know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what did he do?
M. TRUMP: With some people, they don't work there anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, the firing of Mira Ricardel is likely the first of many to come. It could be an indicator of chaos inside the Trump White House right now. President Trump is said to be ready to show the door to Kirstjen Nielsen. He's secretary of Homeland security. Aide is saying that he is frustrated with her handling of his two major issues, immigration and border security. Though he wouldn't answer questions about her today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, do you plan to replace Secretary Nielsen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you planning to make a staff change at that level?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And, of course, there's been long speculation -- there's long been speculation that chief of staff John Kelly's days are numbered in the administration, although the President would only say this, when asked about it last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I haven't heard before John Kelly, but no -- people leave. I'll tell you, there will be changes, nothing monumental from that standpoint. I don't think very much different than most administrations, and we have -- I mean, we have many people lined up for every single position. Any position, everyone wants to work in this White House. We are a hot country. This is a hot White House. We are a White House that people want to work with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A hot White House. It's a hot White House, all right, but for a host of different reasons. And people may not want to work there because of what's likely to be coming down the pike. The L.A. Times is reporting tonight that it's sinking in for this President that he took a drubbing in the midterm elections and now he is becoming bitter and resentful. Democrats will soon take over -- take control of the House. And they're likely to use their subpoena power to investigate the Trump administration and go after the President's tax returns. The Mueller investigation, also in the spotlight once again. More
indictments may be coming. And the President has met with his lawyers to go over a series of responses to written questions submitted by Mueller's team, those answers could be submitted as early as this week. And the President's barely been seen since returning from his weekend trip to France. Did you notice that?
He barely showed up to official events there, while he was there, but as usual, he is tweeting. Today taking jabs at French President Emmanuel Macron who on Sunday denounced nationalism, which Trump promotes. He said it was a betrayal of patriotism, Macron did.
Trump tweeted, the problem is, is that Emmanuel suffers from a very low approval rating in France. 26 percent, and an unemployment rate of almost 10 percent. He was just trying to get on to another subject. By the way, there is no country that is more nationalist than France.
[23:05:03] Very proud people and rightfully so. Make France great again. Didn't mention his own approval numbers, did he? The President also letting off steam over the criticism he is getting for cancelling his visit to an American military cemetery just outside Paris on Saturday. Aides blamed it on bad whether grounding his helicopter, but the chief of staff, john Kelly and General Joseph Dunford, the chairman of the joint chief of staff were able to get there.
So today, the president tweeted. By the way, when the helicopter couldn't fly to the first cemetery in France because of almost zero visibility I suggested driving. Secret service said no, too far from airport and big Paris shutdown. Speech next day at American cemetery in pouring rain, little reported, fake news. OK, so let's take a look at President Trump's claim there. OK?
We know he is exactly shy about making things happen the way he wants them to. And when he wants to go somewhere, he gets there. Here's an example. Back in June, he made sure he travelled in bad weather to a political rally in South Carolina. He was campaigning for Republican governor Henry McMaster. And he made sure the friendly crowd in Trump country knew he would stop at nothing to get there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It was a little rocky up in the sky tonight, I have to be honest. They said, sir, would you mind going back? Would you mind if we didn't stop? I said, there's no way. We cannot stop. We're not going to do that. We're not going to do that for a man named Henry McMaster. We're not going to do that. I wouldn't have the courage to call Henry. Henry, you know, I said I was coming, but I'm only kidding, it's raining out real bad, and we're not showing up. I wouldn't do it for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I wouldn't do it to you, friendly crowd at a rally. For me, but what about the fallen? That was then, this is now. There's also a new headache for the White House tonight. Because CNN is suing President Trump and his top aides for barring our Chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta from doing his job at the White House. Officials pulled Acosta's press pass last week after President Trump post midterm news conference. Originally, the press secretary Sarah Sanders accused Acosta of placing his hands on a female White House intern. She has since backed off that accusation.
Now saying that Acosta refused to surrender the microphone after asking his questions. By denying Jim Acosta access to the White House, CNN calls it a violation of right to a free press. Ted Olson, you might remember him. He is lawyer, he is retained by CNN. In 2000, he represented George W. Bush before the Supreme Court and Bush versus Gore. The landmark case, that resulted in Bush winning the White House. Here's what he says about CNN's lawsuit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED OLSON, ATTORNEY REPRESENTING CNN IN LAWSUIT: The first amendment is absolutely necessary. It is the public's window into what public officials are doing. Journalists cannot be silenced, censored or intimidated, that is the end of the line. The White House cannot get away with this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A Judge has scheduled a hearing for tomorrow afternoon. CNN is calling for Acosta's press credentials to be restored immediately. So as you can see, we have a lot to talk about tonight. Have we ever seen a first lady call for the firing of a top national security official? Publicly calling for it. Mark Preston, Ryan Lizza and Juliette Kayyem, joins me next.
[23:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A top national security official leaving the White House after the first lady publicly called for her firing. What made Melania Trump issue that unprecedented statement today, her office at least? I want to bring in now Mark Preston, Ryan Lizza and Juliette Kayyem.
Good evening. It is extraordinary. I'm sure first ladies have influenced behind the scenes, but we're talking about publicly, Mark -- good evening everyone. We are talking about publicly Mark, the first lady calling for the firing of an NSA official. Have we ever seen anything like this?
MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No, I mean, look at it, it's absolutely unheard of. As you noted, it's not unheard of to see first ladies have considerable influence in the west wing, they just don't do it in such a public way. You look at Hillary Clinton during her years when her husband was in office. And Nancy Reagan herself was very influential certainly over staffing decisions in that administration.
What is troubling about this though is that Melania Trump is weighing in on a subject of such importance. And I'm sure Juliette can talk more to that. But the fact that she is weighing on that. And the fact that the west wing's press office, Donald Trump's own staff had no idea she was doing this, really does goes to the heart of the chaos that we're seeing in the west wing.
Don, we should note that this woman who was fired, or will be fired, is expected to be fired. She is not necessarily well liked within the west wing. She is clashed with the likes of Jim Mattis and with John Kelly, the chief of staff. So she made some serious enemies at very high levels.
LEMON: Yes. I saw the things they were -- there were a number of people who were upset with her, they talked about the way she acted on the trip, how she allegedly yells at people, reportedly yells at and embarrassed the staff in front of other people publicly and in meetings and so forth.
Juliette I want to get to you last, because I want you to put a cap on this for us. Let me go to Ryan here. I am going to ask you this, the Wall Street Journal is reporting Ryan that Mira Ricardel is suspected of planting negative stories about the first lady, do you think that this is why Melania is so angry or just one of the number of things.
RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I feel like we don't have the full back story here, what had been reported as Mark pointed out.
[23:10:01] Is that, there was a major conflict between the first lady's office and Mira Ricardel over the first lady's trip to Africa recently. And some of it sounds you know, relatively petty, the trip was announced by Mira before the first lady's office was ready to announce it. That she didn't have a seat on the plane. That she threatened to pull resources from the trip. So, the series of slights regarding the trip seems to be, you know, the most recent cause of friction.
And the question is, why did Melania Trump feel like her only recourse here was to go public? Essentially pulling a Donald Trump, right? I mean, Trump never -- obviously, he goes public with all kinds of things that most Presidents would never do. And let's remember, there's a long history of Trump campaign officials at the very least going public, airing dirty laundry. Internal back fighting during the 16 campaign. So, what was it that caused her to just as sort of say, my only recourse here is to put out a statement? And I think that is -- you know, that is one question about this little drama.
LEMON: Let me read this, this is from Josh and Phillip. Juliette, it said in her role as number two, to national security adviser John Bolton, Ricardel berated colleagues, admitting she yelled at military aides in White House, professional staff, argued with Melania Trump regarding her recent trip to Africa, and spread rumors about Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, according to three current and two former White House officials.
Kelly was sought for months to oust Ricardel, calling her problematic higher in the West Wing. And Mattis has told advisers that he wants her out as well, the officials said. So with that said, from this bit of reporting, Juliette, why the public shaming? Why not just fire her in private, instead of going public with a statement like the one that with her released?
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, it is shocking. These descriptions make her sound like Donald Trump actually. When I read that, I thought that sounds like a lot like Donald Trump. But, you know, he is allowed to be Donald Trump, she is not. If she needed to be fired, and in fact, I'm going to defend the first lady.
If the first lady's office was disrespected by a staff member of the President. The first lady is a representative of the President, has every right to want her out. And there's a process for that, which is, because she is unaccounted for, she is unelected and essentially she is unqualified to make national security decisions, she goes directly to the person that got her to the White House, which is the President.
This public shaming, though, is not -- it's not just embarrassing and shows the chaos, the outside world looks at all these decisions. You have the first lady upset about -- essentially a slight. Let us just put it, in the scheme of world drama, you know, an airplane -- who gets to sit on an airplane is not a big deal.
Going publicly out to get out -- when we don't know if she is been fired yet, the number two of the national security staff, this isn't some political hack, this isn't some campaign person. This is number two. Of the apparatus that guides America's safety and security. She has -- you have John Bolton is essentially should be in charge here. He is been bypassed by this tweet.
And so the outside world, let alone the agencies, that work in national security are looking at this thinking, I mean, just like Donald Trump wants his march with the -- he calls them his generals and wants a march. And Jared Kushner is wheeling and dealing while he is negotiating. I mean, the Trump family views the national security apparatus as a reflection of either their financial or personal dealings. And Melania Trump just did it today.
And maybe kudos to her for not being shy about it. I will say one thing. She is not been fired yet, so this is just very interesting to me. So there may be a fight going on about whether Melania Trump --
LEMON: They're confirming to us to CNN though that they said she will be fired.
LIZZA: Have we gone full Kardashian here? Except the stakes are a lot higher.
KAYYEM: Yes.
LIZZA: No White House has acted like this.
LEMON: I think the Kardashian are probably a bit more coordinated than this White House, right? Well, anyway, that is a whole other show. Let's go -- Mark, I want to talk about this, another bit of reporting I want to talk to you about. This is from the Washington Post, it is talking about the President's
Paris trip. Sources tell Trump was furious, that he was berating Theresa May on the phone, and berating his chief of staff's office over the fallout from skipping the ceremony visit and complaining not stop about macron. What does this say to you?
PRESTON: I mean, that A, he is incapable of taking criticism. B, he is incapable of taking criticism. C, is capable of taking criticism, when you're the commander in chief and the leader of the free world. You have to take some criticism.
[23:20:04] LEMON: Are you saying he can't take criticism?
PRESTON: That is just part of the job. Isn't it? Isn't part of the job like taking one for the team? You know, taking the punch and being able to move on and trying to do something better.
LEMON: Isn't it also Mark, isn't also having self-awareness? Because again, but the reporting is here that he was berating Theresa May on the phone, right? Like, he doesn't have to do that. He is berating his chief of staff over the fallout from skipping the ceremony, didn't he have the final call on whether he could go to the ceremony.
He should be aware of the importance of that. And then also was upset about Macron. Well, he had every chance to meet with Macron and talk to him. And win him over. Do whatever it is, should he be mad at himself?
PRESTON: I'm fairly certain right now, that world leaders do not want to go out and deliver blistering speeches against the White House, when they know that in the end it's only going to cause them more of a headache. I think it's gotten easier for them, over the past few months, because he really has alienated, you know our really staunch allies, or strong allies all throughout the world.
But if you want to put it under just one basic terminology, or one phrase, and we talked about as many times, Don, is that it is just pure narcissism that Donald Trump is really fueled off of. And that is why we see him act in these very irrational ways, which are very scary given his position of power.
LEMON: I'm out of time, but Ryan, I want to get you back in one more time, I think this is important, because this is what presidential historian Douglas Brinkley is quoted in a piece saying, he is a bull carrying his own China shop with him whenever he travels the world. What's the White House like going-forward? Quickly, if you will?
LIZZA: I mean, things just get worse. It does not get better in terms of him being more Presidential. And you know, I remember White Houses when the daily reporting was about how the President came to a decision, and he had a bunch of policy advisers around, and the reporting would be about a great debate about an important issue. But everything in this White House is petty intrigue. Everything is him getting mad at something he saw on television.
LEMON: And lashing out. LIZZA: When is the last time you actually saw some reporting about
some big policy decision he made. It's like he -- what he considers being President is very different than previous Presidents.
LEMON: Thank you all, I appreciate it.
LIZZA: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: CNN is suing the president, his administration for barring our White House reporter, correspondent Jim Acosta from doing his job. And one of the President's favorite Fox News analysts predicts CNN is going to win the case.
[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK. So there's some new developments tonight in CNN's lawsuit against President Trump and top White House aides. CNN is taking action over the decision to strip the chief White House correspondent Jim Acosta of his White House credentials. A federal judge in Washington holding the first hearing in a lawsuit tomorrow.
So joining me is Burt Neuborne, professor of Civil Liberties at the New York University Law School and Bill Burton, as well. He is a former deputy press secretary for President Obama. By the way, we did requested a Republican press secretaries, none of them took us up on our offers. Who knows, they may had just been busy. Let us not say anything about it, I just wanted it to be transparent about that.
So let's talk about this, Burt. Good evening gentlemen. Burt I want to go to you first, because you were part of a lawsuit that cited in this CNN complaint as precedent in this case. Federal Judge granted CNN a hearing tomorrow in the lawsuit against President Trump over Jim Acosta's press credentials, moving quickly this comes down to press freedom and due process?
BURT NEUBORNE, PROFESSOR OF CIVIL LIBERTIES, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Sure. This is an important case, this is not just something for Trump to beat up on the press and the press to beat up on Trump. There's a very important principle at stake here. The principle is the role of the press as news gatherers in a free society. If the government can shut the ability of the press down to cover events, then the government can manipulate what people hear. So you can't keep them out of courtrooms, you can't keep them out of Congress and you can't keep them out of the White House.
LEMON: You said the chances are here for CNN?
NEUBORNE: I think the chances are pretty good, it is a strong case. First, at a minimum, the appeals court for the District of Columbia, held way back in 1977, you cannot strip someone of press credentials, without giving them a full hearing.
LEMON: You said this has been ruled upon before?
NEUBORNE: Yes, Jim Cheryl who was the correspondent for the Nation was denied press credentials back in 1977, it was a tougher case. The secret service said he was a physical threat to the President. And even under those circumstances, the D.C. Circuit held you can't do it without giving him a hearing, because there's such an important free speech right. And the free speech right is for the people to be able to count on the press to be their investigative arm.
LEMON: All right. Bill, let me bring you here, because the press secretary, Sarah Sanders claims that CNN is quote, grandstanding by suing. She says the administration is going to quote, vigorously defend itself. These is a statement, this is the White House cannot run an orderly and fair press conference when a reporter acts this way. Which is need appropriate nor professional.
If there is no check on this type of behavior, it impedes the ability of the President, the White House staff and members of the media to conduct business. Listen, you were the deputy press secretary in the Obama administration and most of us remember that. No doubt there were outlets or reporters that you and the President didn't like, but you didn't take their passes away, did you? Their press pass?
BILL BURTON, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, it wasn't even about who you liked and who you didn't like. Because there are plenty of people who -- on a personal level you may have a good relationship with, but when they were in the briefing room, or they were in press conferences with the president they were very tough. Jake Tapper from CNN is one of those reporters.
He was tough every single time he was in a press conference with President Obama. John Carl from ABC, Savannah Guthrie, April Ryan. You know, a lot of reporters came in there and were tough with the President, with Robert Gibbs who was my boss at the time. Or me when I was at the podium.
That is part of the job. You can't get the kind of answers that the American people deserve without being tough on the person who's answering the questions. And frankly, were it not for them to be so tough with us, they wouldn't have the credibility now to be in that pressroom and say, no, this is the standard.
This is how we are with all Presidents. And you can't kick them out, as the courts have already ruled. And so I do think CNN has a strong case. I think this White House is in trouble for yet another reason.
LEMON: It's interesting the people, you know, who are seasoned White House correspondents. I mean April is still there, one of the deans of the press corps, because she's been there for two decades or more. She's seen a number of different Presidents. And yet, she's getting similar treatment -- he even mentioned her when he, you know, just out of the blue, when he was talking about Jake -- not Jake, sorry, about Jim Acosta when he mentioned taking his press credentials. Burt, I have got to ask you.
NEUBORNE: Sure.
LEMON: The only reason the secret service could remove a reporter who is a physical danger to the President of the United States. Now this is -- I just want to play this. This is a Fox Analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano, what he's saying about this lawsuit. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS ANALYST: Obviously, Acosta may have been an irritant to the President. But he was hardly a danger to him. So I think CNN's got a very good case. I think this will be resolved quickly. I don't expect a jury trial. I think it will either be settled or CNN will prevail on motion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So what do you think -- frequent defender of the President, by the way.
NEUBORNE: Yes, I know. And I am not nervous because I am agreeing with him. But I don't think this is a particularly complicated and difficult case. They -- there is a hearing tomorrow afternoon at 3:30. The federal judge scheduled it on an accelerated basis for something that -- it's a temporary restraining order, but essentially it could be the whole case. If they restore Acosta's press credentials, I don't think we'll hear anything more about it.
I don't think the government will appeal it. But the hearing is at 3:30. And there's a very powerful argument to be made that the President simply -- if he wants to hold a press conference, then it's got to be a press conference.
LEMON: He's got to take the tough questions.
NEUBORNE: If he wants a kept group of people that will do whatever he wants, then he can go to Fox. But if he wants to hold a real press conference where people hold his feet to the fire, then he can't get petulant and say oh, I don't like those questions. Get out of my White House.
LEMON: By the way, he didn't need the microphone. People yell out questions all the time.
NEUBORNE: And you know what? I mean I've been in enough crowds there are hecklers. You want to control somebody. You turn the microphone off. You don't send some poor intern into a crowd to take...
(CROSSTALK)
NEUBORNE: Plenty of ways to control it.
LEMON: Yeah. Listen, Helen Thomas, Bill, Sam Donaldson. I mean there were irritants to Presidents. I am sure those Presidents who wanted to tell them to sit down. And then this was a press conference for -- do you remember when Reagan said, I paid for that microphone.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I mean there are these moments, right? And so I don't understand, even now though with that. We're talking about the removal of the microphone, whatever they were doing with the microphone. This is distorted video, Bill, of Sarah Sanders. She tweeted this out. She said it didn't show the whole back and forth. It appears edited. So -- I mean this is from InfoWars.
BURTON: Yeah, well.
LEMON: Right? This is from InfoWars. I just want to play -- this is the actual exchange, instead of this sped up and repeated. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Jim Acosta, White House Correspondent, CNN: They are hundreds of miles of way, though. They are hundreds and hundreds of miles...
(CROSSTALK)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know what?
ACOSTA: That's not an invasion.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: I think you should let me run the country, you run CNN. And if you did it well, your ratings would be much better.
(CROSSTALK)
ACOSTA: If I may ask one other question...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Go ahead. That's enough. That's enough. That's enough.
ACOSTA: The other folks...
TRUMP: That's enough.
ACOSTA: Pardon me ma'am, I am...
TRUMP: Excuse me. That's enough.
ACOSTA: Mr. President, I have one other question, if I may.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Bill, what Sanders tweeted omitted Acosta saying pardon me ma'am as well. I mean it's troubling that Sarah Sanders, someone who is paid by the taxpayers, essentially tweeting out an altered video with misleading information.
BURTON: Well, you know, when we were in the White House, we were so concerned about any half thought or idea being misconstrued as being untruthful at all, ever. And this White House as a matter of form is lying every single day. And this is just the latest example of it. But I would point out, Don, that one thing worth noting here is that President Trump has created the chaos in these press conferences. President Obama, President George W. Bush before him, President Bill
Clinton. Traditionally, what has happened in the era of the modern press conference is the President comes out with a list of reporters that he's going to call on. And it rotates through big outlets, some small outlets. President Obama brought in a bunch of digital outlets hadn't gotten a bunch of attention before. And you call on, you know, 12, 14, sometimes 20 or more reporters, depending on how much time you have.
[23:34:54] And the President would look at the list, call on the reporter, and you would have this orderly exchange. And even in that process, you would have reporters like a Jake Tapper or a John Carl or folks like that, Chuck Todd. They would still be insistent and press and it would be tough questioning. But you didn't have this chaos of everybody's hands going up, and saying, me, me, me, me, me.
But President Trump has decided that instead of having any sort of order whatsoever, he's happy to come out, create this chaos, create this situation where there are no rules or reason, really. And as a result, you have got a lot more reporters shouting a lot more questions, and he could have resolved this himself by just bringing some more order to what he's got going on in there. But he decided to go a different way because that's his way.
LEMON: I am out of time. Did you want to get a last word in?
NEUBORNE: Well, the last word is this is part of a Trump campaign to essentially make the press unreliable. So one of the things that I am afraid of here, is he wins either way. There will be a court order restoring Acosta's press credentials, and Trump will take that to his base and say, see, you can't even trust the courts.
LEMON: You got it.
NEUBORNE: So, you know, he's got us in a box. The only way to resist him is to resist him on principle, which is what CNN is doing.
LEMON: Yeah. You're a smart man. So are you, Bill. You're a smart man.
BURTON: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Melania Trump isn't the only First Lady speaking out. Oprah interviewing Michelle Obama tonight, you don't want to miss this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome, Michelle Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:40:00] LEMON: Former First Lady Michelle Obama kicking off her book tour at Chicago's United Center with Oprah just a short time ago. She spoke candidly about a number of topics and about leaving the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I always say that a house is a house. And what we -- what you bring to the home is what makes it a home. And how we lived in that home was what I remember most. And people ask do I miss the White House. And it's like no I don't miss the house, because we took what was important in that house with us. And it is with us and it is with us. It's family, its values, it's the friendship.
So the house is beautiful. And it's historic, and, you know, it was an honor to live there. But the people in it make it what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right, Michelle Obama. Joining me now is Anita McBride, the Former Chief of Staff to First Lady Laura Bush, and CNN Presidential Historian, Douglas Brinkley. Good evening to both of you, so good to have both of you on. Anita, both first ladies are in the news tonight, Michelle Obama and of course, the First Lady now Melania Trump. Just yesterday, we heard Michelle say that she offered help to Melania at any time, as Laura Bush had done for her.
But Melania had not reached out. Today, Melania's office issued an unprecedented statement calling for a national security official to be ousted. Were you surprised by that?
ANITA MCBRIDE, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO FIRST LADY LAURA BUSH: Well, here's, you know, one thing I know about a First Lady and a First Lady's office. You know they have enormous influence in the White House. Full stop, that's just, you know, how it is. So was -- what I think about it, though, is that it certainly laid down the mark if anybody had any question about Mrs. Trump's influence in the White House or how she wants to do things.
And be the independent thinker that she said she is. She made that pretty clear today. But I think to have an influence on a National Security Council position so publicly to have that impact, you know, that's really out of the ordinary for sure.
LEMON: You think about it -- the former First Lady, Hillary Clinton. I mean she was criticized a lot, because people thought she had influence now that she was making public pronouncements, remember? We all remember that, what she went through, right?
MCBRIDE: Well, she had an office in the west wing, so she was in the heart of it.
LEMON: Right, right, right. So -- and I think you're right, to think that a First Lady doesn't have influence on her own husband, I mean that would be just ridiculous.
MCBRIDE: Or the White House, and the staff.
LEMON: Exactly. Douglas, what do you make of the First Lady's involvement in the expected firing of Mira Ricardel? Is it appropriate for the east wing to be weighing in on something like that, I mean publicly, right?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I was surprised that they're just so transparent about it. It reminded me when Nancy Reagan was furious at Donald Regan, White House Chief of Staff, just livid. And he had the tenacity or the gall to hang up on her. And Nancy Reagan made it clear he's gone. But she didn't make a public statement herself.
In this case, Melania Trump seems to -- I think of kind of have soiled her Africa trip which went fairly well. There were fashionistas who criticized (Inaudible). Now this is going to be part of what's going to be seen as a trip to Africa that went awry a bit.
LEMON: Yeah. I forgot about that, when you reminded of Nancy Reagan, the velvet glove.
MCBRIDE: I was a young staffer in the White House when that happened. And in the personnel office saying the one sentence resignation coming in from Don Regan, and you know, she had asked George H.W. Bush to fire Don Regan. She wasn't happy with how he was supporting the President, or lack of supporting the President over scheduling and a lot of other things.
But Doug Brinkley is right. The minute the hang-up phone call happened, that was it, it was over.
[23:44:49] LEMON: Yeah, yeah.. So there you go. Listen, Doug. I just want to play -- this is another portion from the event tonight. This is the former First Lady Michelle Obama on what it's like to raise their daughters in such a formal atmosphere.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: How do you make this normal for children? You know, because Malia and Sasha were...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Seven and ten.
OBAMA: Thank you for that. You know I won't hear the end of that. It's just like mom didn't even know how old we were. They were young. And we were figuring out how do we keep them grounded. And the first thing we thought is like they cannot -- you know when we're having pancakes in the morning, it's just crazy to have a man with a tuxedo come in. When you have got some little girls at a sleepover and you're bringing in some water.
That -- you know so we cancelled the tuxedos. It's like take those tuxedos off. Wear some polo shirts and some slacks. Unless we did something formal, we just sort of loosened it up a bit. But other than that, the White House does feel like a home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So moving into such a historic home has got to be, Douglas, an adjustment process for any family, for any of the first families. But remember they were the first African-American family, even more so probably.
BRINKLEY: Well, you know, I've gotten a chance to read Michelle Obama's first rate memoir, and it -- she really dotes on both of her daughters a lot. And talks about what it's like to raise them in the White House. It reminded me of Laura Bush, you know. Both Michelle Obama and Laura Bush were tremendous mothers who protected their kids from the media glare, from living in a glass house, who gave them a semblance of normality.
And the -- that's hard to be -- and you have to love it, when they -- both Laura Bush and Michelle Obama put being mom first. It comes out in both of their books. Laura Bush has spoken from the heart and becoming of Michelle Obama. And, you know, there's always a feeling of worried about something strange.
In Michelle Obama's memoir, Don, she tells us about a nightmare she had of zoo animals going on the White House lawn and they accidentally shot a tranquilizer gun that hit one of her daughters. In her memoir, she tells this dream, but it tells you how nervous she was that something bad was going to happen even in a situation with people were trying to -- bringing the zoo to the White House lawn in her dream.
LEMON: Yeah. She talks about when they drove down in front of the White House, right, and then someone shot at the window. But Anita, I'm going to give you the last word. Say what you want to say about both of their husbands, politically on different sides of the aisle. They're both classy women.
MCBRIDE: Oh, they are. And, you know, when I was there, that first day Michelle Obama ever walked into the White House, when, you know, the customary visit between the outgoing First Lady and the incoming First Lady. And Mrs. Bush, you know, took her on a private tour of the residence. They spent about an hour or more with each other.
And that was the basis of their conversation. It was Laura Bush assuring Michelle Obama that she could raise her daughters there. And that it will be a home. And that -- yes, it is different than any home that you'll live in, but you can make it a family place. And what Laura Bush did do, which was, you know, the first time that I remember -- I ever heard this had happened.
She asked her to come back and to bring her daughters and to bring her mother in law, her mother, who the President's mother-in-law, that was going to be living there, and so that they could spend an evening. And she asked Barbara and Jenna to come down and take the girls through their new house. So they could see it through their eyes. And that was, I think again -- that had -- it was not an easy campaign in 2008.
You know with as much running against George Bush as it was running against John McCain. But at the time of transition, it's a peaceful transfer of power and everything changes. And the new occupant comes in, and you make it home for them.
LEMON: That shows you, classy, class. Money doesn't buy that.
MCBRIDE: No.
LEMON: Thank you. Thank you, both. I appreciate it.
MCBRIDE: Thank you.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
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[23:50:00] LEMON: Newly released FBI data show hate crimes spiked 17 percent in 2017, the third consecutive year in which these crimes increased. Angela Rye is here. Let's discuss, Angela, good evening. We've got lots to talk about. Let me break it down real quick before you start assessing things here, 7,175 hate crimes last year up from 6,121 in 2016, just getting the data just weeks after Pittsburgh, these anti-semitic attacks, the shootings, whatever, all of this stuff. What is going on? Is it the political climate?
ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I definitely think the political climate has a ton to do with it, Don. But I was thinking right before I came on air about it, 2012 piece that I wrote called Words Matter. And it was about Barack Obama's second term, and the fact that even in West Virginia at that time there was a white man, a felon who ran against him in the Democratic primary and almost won.
It was amazing to me in that moment how much racism had really trickled into the political process. And, of course, we know that at that point Donald Trump was -- had started and was the spokesperson at least of the birther movement. So we know exactly what rhetoric does and how dangerous that rhetoric can become. And we're seeing -- we're eyewitnesses to that every single day.
LEMON: I want to bring in Scott Jennings now. Scott, anti-Semitic hate crimes went up 37 percent last year. Do you think it's a coincidence that we saw a spike in anti-Semitic crimes the very same year that President Trump said Nazis marching in Charlottesville were very fine people?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't like to draw links like that, because I don't think you can blame any one politician for a problem that's been going on in this country for a very long time. However, that does not excuse the responsibility of every one of us who's involved in the public discourse, every politician, the President.
[23:54:59] Everybody who has a microphone or a podium or a place to try to speak out against this kind of hate, they have a responsibility to do it. And so we all have to be vigilant against this. It's been going on for a long time. It's heinous. It's hateful. It has no place in our public discourse. And I want to see all politicians, especially the President. Because the President sets a tone for the nation, take every opportunity to speak out against it.
LEMON: According to the Anti-Defamation League, it says 2017 was the third highest year for anti-Muslim attacks, 2016 was the second highest year since 2001, post 9/11, Angela, last word, 15 seconds, if you will.
RYE: Sure. Just quickly, I think of Jordan Davenport who was just killed in Cypress, Texas this week. I think about the many things that we continue to see on our watch. And I would hasten us to say do not engage in the both sides. It's not both sides. It's time to call this out for what it is.
LEMON: I've got to go. But let's see, 56 percent of the victims targeted because of race, ethnicity, ancestry. Notably of the 1,679 religious bias crimes reported in 2017, 58.1 percent were anti-Jewish, 18.7 were anti-Muslim. This is crazy. It's got to stop, you all. Thank you for your time. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.
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