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Don Lemon Tonight

Prison Reform Push in the Senate; A War of Words Breaking Out; A Federal Judge is Set to Decide Tomorrow; President Gives His Support in the First Step Act. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 14, 2018 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: But we're the greatest country on earth, and more people voted in this election than anyone else. Of course, we can improve upon what we have, but let's come together and work with the people who are being elected and make sure every single vote counts. We're all Americans at the end of the day. Where is that message?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I'll tell you where it is. It's in there when people write it for him, but it's not what's in his head in terms of what works. He talks about winning all the time, but for him, for our president, winning is a coefficient of someone else losing. And the losing is the emphasis.

Remember his signature line, Don, what made him famous, when endeared him to so many people. you're fired. he's always been about the negative.

LEMON: That was written.

CUOMO: And about losers. But he owned it, and it's part of his persona.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: That's how he sees the positive. The positive is a function of the negative for somebody else. We're going to get them back. We're going to keep these people out. We're not going to let these people in. I'm going to beat them for you. That's how he talks.

There are people who like it, but the number is not growing. And it's one of the reasons the nationalism stuff scares people so much. That's what nationalism is. It's not, I'm great. It's, I'm great because you suck, and I'm going to put you down. That's what's scary about it.

LEMON: If you -- if you talk to people who have -- sorry. I'm writing names down here because I don't want to--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You're writing down what I said again?

LEMON: No, no. I'm writing down names that-- (CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Tell them to use it for your own later?

LEMON: Because I don't want to forget. No, I'm good. I think I'm good.

CUOMO: OK.

LEMON: SO, if you talk to people who have actually worked in the White House, who have been advisers, who have been press secretaries or spokespeople or whoever, like Brian Fallon, I was writing down, Valerie Jarrett, Nicolle Wallace who is over on NBC, they will tell you that if you hear about -- read about the chaos, or see it a little bit, it is multiplied as to what is actually happening on the inside. I can't imagine that what we're hearing, that it is exponential exponentially worse on the inside of this White House.

CUOMO: I can. I know it's true. You know, the irony is while we are such castoffs by the administration, such constant targets, I've never been threaded more closely to an administration than I am here.

I have at least three and often five really solid sources who work in there or closely with the people in there, who tell us about what's going on all the time, and it is chaos. It is proof that the president has never managed a team well. He has never surrounded himself with the best. Look at the Melania situation. She went public with a gripe. We have never seen that before, never.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: What does it speak to? Dysfunction.

LEMON: I got to tell you, I had a conversation with Valerie Jarrett the other night.

CUOMO: I saw it.

LEMON: And I talked to her about the former first lady, Michelle Obama's book. And listen, I was in Chicago. I knew the Obamas when he was a state senator. I remember he would come on, you know, and be on our political program. We'd interview him about something.

I covered him when he did the speech at the Democratic National Convention and his rise to prominence. I remember when he had one pair of shoes that he would wear with holes in it and a suit, and I'd see him in the makeup room. I'd say, my gosh, Senator Obama, state senator, you need to eat. You look really thin. We would say, he needs to get a new suit.

I mean, I just remember. I'm just talking. This was just my personal experience with the Obamas. I was a local anchor. So, I was their anchor. They knew me who I was. I knew who they was -- they were. I wasn't like close personal friends with them, but I knew a lot of people who were there when the Obamas became the Obamas that went to the White House, right, and before. I know more about what's happening in this White House and have very little personal knowledge or experience with people who know the Trumps than I have with the Obamas, and I know way more about what's happening in the Trump White House than I ever knew in the entire eight years that the Obamas were in office. What does that tell you?

CUOMO: That there's a lot more to talk about.

LEMON: And there are a lot more leaks.

CUOMO: And that they handle their business.

LEMON: Yes, their businesses in the street.

CUOMO: The place leaks like a sieve. But see, look, again, people will be watching us as they are or want to do, and they will say, man, these two, they just go over the president. But it's true.

We were also just talking about criminal justice reform, and that's a positive thing, because it is true. But this is the different metric and people have to own this if they want to be fair about what's happening with our dialogue.

LEMON: Here's the--

CUOMO: He says things and does things and causes disruption and negativity in a way we have never seen.

LEMON: Nail on the head, OK? This is the thing I want to talk to about Van. You know Van and I are friends off camera, right and on?

CUOMO: I'm friends with Van too.

LEMON: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Don't make it sound like, only your friends with Van.

LEMON: My gosh. Don't be so sensitive, Chris Cuomo.

CUOMO: I'm sorry.

LEMON: OK. Thank you. Everything is not about you, OK?

CUOMO: I'm sorry.

LEMON: All right. So, Van and I are good friends off camera. But on TV sometimes we get into debates.

[22:04:58] And what I -- the thing that I want to ask him about and not necessarily debate him about is what you just said because this administration, especially this president, says so many things about African-Americans that are offensive, that we deem offensive, people of color deem offensive. But then he works on an initiative or his administration and Jared or

whomever, they work on an initiative that can help many people of color who are behind bars and the black community.

So, it is, so what do you do? How are people of color supposed to take him? Should they buy into this whole thing about the criminal justice system and about the Trumps actually wanting to help and work with them or the Trump administration, or do they take him at his word as to some of the things that he says and the other policies that he espouses about people of color?

CUOMO: I'll tell you what's more of a--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I'm just saying.

CUOMO: I'll tell you what's more of a problem for any distinct group, let alone minority groups. If you know that somebody will treat you any way that works for them in the moment, that is a really dangerous situation.

You're better off dealing with somebody that you know just hates you, and they hate you all the time, every time. At least you know what you're dealing with.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It is more difficult to deal with somebody who treats you the way that works for them in the moment because then you never really are sure about what you're going to get. And that's what happens here.

They've had such a very definite way of dealing with minorities out of the president's mouth. Now this policy seems to speak of something that's far more virtuous. Which is it? I would argue it's both because he goes with what works for him in the moment.

LEMON: Well, what you're saying is -- and I think maybe it's a secret to some people. But this president is not really a Democrat or a Republican, although he is governing very conservatively. He is transactional more than anything. Christopher Cuomo--

CUOMO: Always a pleasure, Don.

LEMON: Good to see you. Check your text messages. I had a question for you. Answer me later.

CUOMO: I have you blocked. I'll unblock it.

LEMON: Blocked.

CUOMO: I'm going to respond to you by Animoji. I am the dragon.

LEMON: I usually don't two that with your phone calls. I just do it with your show.

CUOMO: I am the dragon.

LEMON: Thank you. I'll see you later.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

These are easy questions to pose but ones that have to be considered. Has Donald Trump lost his control of his presidency? Has he? Is he an effective leader? I'm being serious. Is he?

All of this is based on reporting, OK? This is based on reporting, right, credible reporting of people inside the White House. President Trump isolated, growing more furious by the day. His mood, dark and angry. Berating aides who are bickering with each other.

One White House official is saying that Trump is pissed at "damn near everyone." That's a quote. I'm not just saying that. "Pissed at damn near everyone." He's stewing over the harsh criticism he's getting for his lackluster performance in France over the weekend and feels his staff let him down over the decision to cancel the planned visit to an American cemetery outside of Paris because of rain.

The buck stops where again? The president is said to be unsettled and troubled about Robert Mueller's Russia investigation and the possibility of more indictments. Mueller is getting closer to issuing his report, and Trump is angry and bitter about the blue wave that's about to sweep Capitol Hill with Democrats taking control of the House. But this is what he said the day after the midterms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was a big day yesterday, an incredible day. And last night the Republican Party defied history to expand our Senate majority while significantly beating expectations in the House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, with Democratic control of the House comes subpoena power, with Democrats -- which Democrats will likely use to investigate his administration and possibly demand his tax returns.

The president is blaming his political advisers for the Dems' big win, and Republicans losing the House. Not taking any of the blame himself. Surprise, right? That's not usual.

But we know President Trump needs an enemy. So, today, he attacked the election process, telling the right-wing Web site the Daily Caller, the Republicans don't win, and that's because of potentially illegal votes. When people get in line, they have absolutely no right to vote, and they go around in circles. Sometimes they go to their car, put on a different hat, put on a different shirt, come in and vote again.

Nobody takes anything. I guess he means like identification or whatever or proof that they should vote. It's really a disgrace what's going on. You know what's disgraceful is what the president is alleging without a shred of evidence. Doing it again. It's just wacky. [22:09:58] People going to their cars and changing their clothes so

they can vote again? False and beneath the dignity of his office. It would almost be funny except there is nothing funny about talk like that coming from the president of the United States. He was asked about it today at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, you just said that people used disguises to cast illegal votes. Do you have any evidence of voter fraud like that? Do you have any evidence of people doing voter fraud?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, no answer. He dodged that question because he has no evidence. Remember his voter fraud commission? Disbanded. But there's no doubt that some people in his base believe it. That's why he says stuff like that.

The Trump White House is so dysfunctional. The president was completely caught off guard by the first lady, Melania Trump's, statement yesterday that deputy national security adviser Mira Ricardel no longer deserves to work in the White House.

And according to our reporting, Trump was furious, angry that he looks like a bossed around husband. But now we know just how influential the first lady really is. The president is doing what his wife wants.

We learned tonight that Mira Ricardel is, in fact, leaving the White House. She'll take a new role somewhere else in the Trump administration, though where exactly, no one is saying.

And with each passing day, people inside the West Wing are left wondering, who's next to go? Some of this is, of course, normal after the midterms. Word is the president is itching to get rid of his homeland security secretary, Kirstjen Nielsen. He's unhappy with her, the way she handled immigration and border security issues.

Today she was in South Texas with the defense secretary, James Mattis, visiting with troops who were sent there by the president to stop a caravan of migrants from Central America, by the way still hundreds of miles away in Mexico. They're trying to cross the border -- trying to get them to stop from crossing the border.

Trump claims many of them are dangerous criminals trying to invade the U.S. when, in fact, there are people who are seeking asylum from violence in their native countries in Central America.

You may be aware of that since he tweeted about it 45 times in the three weeks leading up to the election. And zero times since then.

Secretary Mattis made clear to the troops that their mission is not to stop the migrants. They're simply there to provide support to homeland security personnel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMES MATTIS, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We were asked by the secretary due to the number of people coming this way to back them up. What does that mean? It means that her people do all the work, but we're standing behind them as a confidence builder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: President Trump's basically been out of sight since returning from France on Sunday. He seems to be watching a lot of TV and tweeting. But he did see -- we did see him briefly today at the White House at a photo op, supporting a bipartisan bill on prison reform.

And we're going to talk about that tonight with our very own Van Jones, who has been supportive of those efforts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Today I'm thrilled to announce my support for this bipartisan bill that will make our communities safer and give former inmates a second chance at life after they have served their time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And the White House released a photo of the president on the phone receiving an update on the California wildfires four days after his initial tweet attacked California for its forest management and drew the ire of hero firefighters there trying to save lives.

The current death toll in those fires, at least 58. The wildfire in Northern California's Butte County is the deadliest and most destructive in state history.

Lots to discuss tonight. Can an angry and isolated president effectively do his job? Our experts are here. We'll get some answers to that question next.

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, tonight, multiple sources are telling CNN that there is upheaval inside the White House. The president in an angry, foul mood. More to talk about now.

Let's discuss. Max Boot is here, the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." Also, with me, Philip Mudd. We're going to be joined by Alice Stewart in just a moment. Transportation, a little traffic.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: It's raining out. She can't make it.

LEMON: No. She actually has real issues. A train was delayed, and there's traffic. And so, if she gets in on time, we'll get her in. But thank you, gentlemen, for joining us. And we thank Alice when she gets here.

So, listen, White House, the sources are telling us, Max, the president -- and this is a quote. What does it say? The president is pissed at "damn near everyone." He's isolated. He feels backed into a corner. So, I guess the question is now what?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It's a good question, Don. I actually have a theory about this. My theory is that President Trump was drinking his own moonshine, and he actually thought there was going to be this red wave and somehow his magic touch was going to radically transform the fortunes of the Republican Party. When that didn't happen, I feel like he's been sulking. He's really acting depressed and very, very low energy.

LEMON: But can you imagine, though, if he loves to watch cable news, right? And you watch every day, and then there's another Democrat who wins and another Democrat who wins and another Democrat who wins. You think he's sitting there going--

BOOT: No, I'm sure he's seething, but he's also completely isolated. He's not going out. I mean, you saw this in Paris where he didn't go to the war cemetery. On Monday he didn't observe Veterans Day. On Tuesday, King Abdullah of Jordan was in Washington and Trump didn't see him. On Wednesday, today, Secretary Mattis was down on the border visiting the troops. Trump didn't go with him.

So, he is basically isolated in the White House, stewing about what's going on and spreading these crazy conspiracy theories to suggest that the Democrats are stealing the election based on, of course, as you pointed out, zero evidence.

[22:20:04] LEMON: Alice is walking in the room. As soon as she gets on set, we'll get her -- we'll get her on. Hi, Alice. I'm going to sneak her in.

So, let me go to this side, maybe we can get her in now. So, let me ask you, because unless you wanted to weigh on what he said.

MUDD: I was going to say, I think, look, let's not overcomplicate it. I think there's a story of optics here. The president is all about saying, I win everything. I win every time. When he wins, let's talk about the wins he claims.

North Korea, which he stepped off the plane from and said, we won. Now if you look at what happened today, which is not on the front pages of America, he didn't win North Korea. That's not going that well. I win. I eliminated the Iran nuclear deal. We won. I played tough against the Iranians. I won in the stock market.

Well, until the Democrats really destroyed what's happening. In all those -- the caravan. He creates the narrative. He cannot create the narrative in the election because you look at what happened to Democrats in the House, and it's like I don't know how to read that other than they kind of won.

LEMON: OK. Let me ask about the Mueller investigation because we know that he, the president met with his lawyers to go over some of these written questions from the Mueller investigation. It continues, I'm sure, to weigh on this president. MUDD: Yes. But the fundamental mistake, Mueller is his best friend.

LEMON: Why?

MUDD: Easy. Let me give you an explanation. I'm going to give you a bias. I think Mueller is going to come out with additional charges. I personally don't think they're Russia charges. I expect they're more money charges. As soon as Mueller comes out with charges--

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You mean money from the president's businesses.

MUDD: Or money from another adviser. Money related to the kinds of things Paul Manafort got busted for.

LEMON: Got it.

MUDD: Money he didn't declare foreign taxes. If you're Muller's -- pardon me, if you're the president looking forward, as soon as Mueller comes out with something, assuming I'm right, that it won't be Russia- related, reaching the Oval Office, nobody can attack Mueller. Democrats can't. Republicans can't. If he comes out with charges that only money, if I'm the president, I'm going to say, game over. I won. Obviously, Mueller is right. Everybody loves him.

LEMON: OK. Got it. Alice, welcome to the program. Thank you. We're so glad you could make it.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm so glad to be here.

LEMON: We appreciate it. We heard you were rushing to get in. Seriously we really appreciate it. So, let's talk about this. You've been -- I'm sure you're listening in, on part of the conversation here.

The president declared victory, remember a week ago in the East Wing. you've been on, we discussed it. The problem is that he appears to be angry about the blue wave. And if you've been clued into this, you watch every day another Democrat wins, another Democrat wins. Apparently, he's seething about that. That's the reporting. But he says publicly he doesn't take any responsibility for it.

STEWART: No. It really doesn't matter what you call it, if you call it a blue wave or a red defeat or whatever you want to call it. Democrats won the House, and the Republicans still have control of the Senate, and that's really exactly what a lot of people expected to the degree of which Democrats control the House is the question.

And regardless of how you call it, this president, as much as I love him and would vote for him again, he's like a weather man. They will take credit for the weather and don't take credit for the bad weather.

And he will, like all the victories he will claim for him, and he will not accept blame for the defeats. But the reality is what we're going to see moving forward is how much will Democrats moving forward -- will they work to legislate and work across the aisle, or will they work to investigate against President Trump? That's the question here.

And moving forward, I would like to think that this is a wake-up call to Republicans and Democrats, and Republicans that Max really likes to embrace and the ones he loves to hate. It's a great opportunity for everyone--

(CROSSTALK)

BOOT: Which ones I want to embrace.

LEMON: I think there's only one he really doesn't want to embrace, and that he's in the White House.

(CROSSTALK)

STEWART: I think it's an opportunity for everyone to realize, OK, at the end of the day, you can sit there and say these are Trump votes or these are Democrat votes. These are the will of the American people.

LEMON: OK. I get your point.

STEWART: The will of the American people was that Democrats won the House.

LEMON: OK. I get your point.

STEWART: We have to understand that. I get your point. And so, I want to get back to the president and his mood. But let me just ask you this since she brought it up.

When you see things like -- you saw what Mitch McConnell tweeted today about are Democrats going to work with us and blah, blah, blah. Many people say -- saw that and said, well, that's rich considering the way that he and Republican leadership have conducted themselves over the past 10 years, first of all saying Obama is never going to get another term. We're not going to work with him.

And then the way they conducted themselves through the healthcare vote, through the taxes, with Kavanaugh, and on and on. What did I say? What did I say?

BOOT: Yes. No, I think--

LEMON: Yes, I'm sorry. Kavanaugh and Merrick Garland.

BOOT: I mean, Mitch McConnell just has no sense of self-awareness, and he's putting in this article about working with the Democrats. He's putting it on Fox News. This is after President Trump has spent months saying that Democrats are evil. They're traitors. They want to destroy America. They're working with MS-19. They're in cahoots with these criminals who want to overrun our borders.

LEMON: Thirteen, MS-13.

BOOT: MS-13, sorry. Now they're saying we want to work with them? I mean, give me a break. There's been no more partisan president than this one.

[22:25:03] I mean, he has demonized the opposition, literally demonized the opposition so that they're evil and traitors. So, the notion that Mitch McConnell wants to work with the other side is frankly laughable.

LEMON: OK. Quickly back to the president. Let me ask you, because there are shake-ups, and especially after midterms in many White Houses.

MUDD: Sure.

LEMON: But people there are concerned about what's going to happen. We hear they're planning their exits now, wondering if they're on the chopping blocks. But how much of these uncertainties encourage from the top do you think in this presidency?

MUDD: Look, when you look at what happened with the first lady yesterday, you've got to draw conclusions about the top. I served in bureaucracies including the White House, the CIA, and the FBI. Everyone has a leadership intent that every employee sees. Is it tight? Is it buttoned down? That's Robert Mueller when I was at the FBI. Is it go after them, we can never have another 9/11? That's George Tenet, the CIA director.

If the leadership, in this case, in the president says I'm going to diss the attorney general. I'm going to diss people at the Department of Homeland Security. I'm going to diss my chief of staff, I'm going to can the FBI director, the first lady, if I were her, I'd say, I get it. The way to win in this town is to say, heck with the deputy national security adviser. If I embarrass her publicly that's the way we operate in this town, that's the tone from the bottom down.

If I were in the White House and there was a dispute between the president and first lady, obviously I'm not there. If I were the first lady, obviously that is not going to happen. I'd say, excuse me, you don't like what I just did? That's the tone you set. That's what you've done for 20 months.

STEWART: But this is the classic case of having been in administrations and campaign. Pillow talk, Trump's political talk. And if Melania says she wants you out, you are out.

LEMON: I know, but she said it publicly. I was like--

(CROSSTALK)

BOOT: This has never happened before.

LEMON: No, no, it hasn't. But that was -- that was like check mate.

STEWART: That is like you're out, but the people I'm speaking with saying there's not as much palace intrigue as people say. A lot of folks I'm talking to, I'm here to stay.

LEMON: All right. STEWART: I'm not going to away. And the ones that are in the bottom looking for a job are the ones running to me.

LEMON: All right, late comer, I've got to get to the break.

STEWART: I've got to make up for lost time.

LEMON: But I want you guys to stay with us because we're going to talk about this. The French government accusing President Trump of lacking common decency. What the statement was in response. That's next.

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So a war of words breaking out between President Trump and the French government. France, of course, is a major American ally. Excuse Me. Back with me now, Max Boot, Alice Stewart, and also Phil Mudd, sorry, excuse me. So let's talk about this back and forth between the French government and President Trump, because I thought it was interesting because the President sent out this tweet where he was criticizing France about things.

The spokesman for Macron, I thought his response -- did you see his response? He said I am going to answer you in two words about these tweets. Yesterday was the 13th of November. We commemorated the assassination of 130 of our compatriots three years ago in Paris and Saint Dennis. He said so I will answer him in English. Common decency would have been good. I will not have any other comment to make, ouch.

MUDD: Ouch. We got a couple of things going on here. The President saying rain meant that I couldn't go out to a commemorative ceremony. Rain, like a got Hyundai, I can drive in the rain. You mean the secret service sat next to the President and said you can't get in the car because of the rain?

LEMON: He is saying -- he said that it would be -- it was too far from the airport and that it would be gridlock.

MUDD: Oh, gridlock. So answer me this. The French leadership, the German leadership, the British leadership, what did they do? Call an Uber? What do you think the other leadership was doing in France? I assume that they're going through Paris with motorcades as well. By the way, what would the French think? Would we prefer that maybe there's a little gridlock, or that you say it rained in Paris. I lived in Paris by the way.

It rains a lot. And I couldn't make it. So part of the backdrop to this, I think, them saying you dissed on a memorial day, and now you're dissing us on Twitter, really?

LEMON: He was responding to, as I said, the President's tweets where he mocked Macron's low approval ratings, another tweet on trade. And then he even criticized France's near defeat in both world wars. And we're talking about the United States here, one of our oldest allies. Is this where we are? BOOT: Oh, this is disgraceful, especially from a President who never

has one negative word to say about Vladimir Putin, and says he's in love with Kim Jong-Un, and then he is flaming one of our closest and dearest allies in France in this Twitter war. I mean this is ridiculous. And he's repeating some of these ridiculous allegations that he's made before, which simply aren't true about how they're ripping us off.

They're not paying enough for protection. They're in disadvantageous trade deals with us, etcetera, etcetera. He seems to forget that in July of this year when he was in Europe for the NATO Summit, he was actually saying NATO is strong again. I got them to pay all this money for NATO. Everything is wonderful. Now a few months later, things are not so wonderful. And he's back to that same old broken record about how awful the Europeans are.

I mean the optics are just terrible. He is dividing us from our allies in Europe. I mean this has been the bedrock of American security since 1945, and Donald Trump is calling it into question.

LEMON: I want to put up -- I want to put up this is a headline in today's Los Angeles Times. It says sullen Trump avoids usual duties. It's cynical. He's angry over the midterms and Mueller, and then he gets angrier when people call him out on skipping out on world events. What gives here?

STEWART: Well, world events and national security optics are so easy. All you really have to do is phone it in and show up. And really, that's a great opportunity to be there.

LEMON: That's a very good point. All he had to do was show up.

STEWART: Show up and put a smile on your face.

LEMON: Keep it pushing.

STEWART: It's very simple. Why he didn't do this, I don't understand. It's not just a matter of shunning our foreign allies, as Max said, that he doesn't really like. But this is showing reverence to American servicemen who died in the line of duty. And this would have been a very easy thing to do. But at this point, we need to get to the stage where, OK, he's proven his case where we're the bigger -- we're the big guy in the foreign policy pond.

And they're not buying into it anymore. So we need to reach across the pond. We need to have -- as Macron said, we don't need to do foreign policy by tweet.

LEMON: But is this frustrating to you, Alice?

(CROSSTALK)

STEWART: -- by sitting down, having the conversation, and having these discussions. That's how foreign policy should be...

[22:34:51] LEMON: All right. But is it frustrating to you, as a Trump supporter, that it sort of shows what -- how he views relationships, that it's all about him, and it's not in the best interests of the United States. And maybe the best interests of the United States is for him to actually sit down and at least try to work with our allies.

STEWART: It is frustrating as a Republican who supports him and wants him to succeed. I do think he believes this is in the best interest of the United States. But it's not working. We have not just France, but we have Germany, and we have a lot of our European allies who are now frustrated with us. We need to sit down. We need to recognize. We have to sit across the table, and we have to work together to have -- to forge these alliances that have been in place for years and years and years and years.

That's where we need to get. And what he's doing now by throwing the stick, it's not working. Now we need to reach the carrot across the table with our European allies.

LEMON: All right. Max, this is your column in the Washington Post. And by the way, it was a fascinating column. I encourage everyone to read it. You said it could take a generation to clean up the toxins he has released. Trump is a racist, xenophobic conspiracy monger, and his party increasingly reflects all of those mental deformities. After he is gone and perhaps even before, it will be imperative to rebuild the guardrails of our culture.

We cannot eliminate bigotry, but we can reduce its prevalence and make its public expression unacceptable. A generation is a long time. How much of that is precisely because of the Republican Party, is the Trump party?

BOOT: I think that's exactly right. And I think that the Republican Party and Trump are legitimizing some of these foul prejudices and bigotries that we thought had been banished from the public sphere, and they are back with a vengeance. And you see Trump talking in ways that you have never seen an American President talking before. And the Republican Party is imitating that.

You know you have Steve King talking about Mexican immigrants as dirt. You have Cindy Hyde Smith, the Senator from Mississippi, joking about going to a lynching.

LEMON: Public hanging.

BOOT: This kind of stuff is not acceptable. And we need to have some guardrails on our culture, which have collapsed as a result of what Donald Trump is doing. We need to -- I mean, again, I can't believe that we have to do this. I thought we'd already done this, but we have to do it again. We have to teach people, no, you can't be openly racist. You can't be xenophobic. You can't be misogynistic.

You have to treat people with respect. You can't engage in hate- mongering for political purposes. Again, I thought people knew this, but clearly they don't. And we need to re-instill those lessons to make the country great again.

LEMON: Last word.

MUDD: Not yet. I still think that a lot of people (Inaudible) optimist overseas understands the character of American people as a generous people. But I do think if we deal with this with another term or especially a second presidency that has the same terms, then I would go where Max is. People are going to start to say is this really the character of America?

LEMON: So you don't think it's going to take a generation to...

MUDD: Not yet. But I don't think that the American culture that we built up over more than 200 years is infallible. I think people, if we go into another four to eight years, we'll start to say maybe this does reflect the true America. Not yet, but soon.

LEMON: Thank you, everyone. Thanks for showing up, Alice.

STEWART: Thanks, Don. Glad to be here.

LEMON: We're glad you made. We really appreciate it. Thank you. CNN facing off against the Trump administration in court today over Jim Acosta's White House Press Pass being revoked. What happened inside the courthouse today, and what we can expect tomorrow? That's next.

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[22:40:00] LEMON: A federal judge is set to rule tomorrow afternoon on whether the White House has to immediately restore a Press Pass to CNN Chief White House Correspondent Jim Acosta. Attorneys for CNN and the administration made their case in court earlier today. Brian Stelter is here to discuss, Senior Media Correspondent, right? Correct?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You got me.

LEMON: I got you. OK, so let's break down the arguments made in court.

STELTER: Yes.

LEMON: How did it go today, Brian?

STELTER: The White House -- the Trump administration via the Department of Justice is claiming that the President has broad discretion over who can be let into the White House and who can be kicked out. This is a break with decades of precedent, Don. Normally, Republican and Democratic administrations have been very permissive about press passes and press access. Even if you're from some obscure outlet or some fringe outlet, you're going to be allowed in.

But the Trump administration sees it differently. They say the President has wide latitude about who gets in and who gets kicked out. And so they say Acosta's Press Pass was revoked because he was rude. He was inappropriate. But CNN's lawyers are saying that has nothing to do with this, Acosta's style, whether you like it or not, that has nothing to do with this.

This is about First Amendment rights and Fifth Amendment rights, due process. They say Acosta was not given a fair shake. He was not given due process. And most importantly of all, he's being discriminated against based on his work, based on his viewpoint. Bottom line, CNN says Acosta is being mistreated just because Trump doesn't like him. The arguments in court today lasted nearly two hours, and the judge will rule tomorrow.

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more about, because the judge asked the administration's lawyers whether the White House felt that they had the right to pull the pass of a journalist who is reporting that they didn't like. What was the response?

STELTER: And the DOJ lawyer said yes, any reporter at any time for any reason. And you're making a face because that is a dramatic change from, again, decades of law and tradition and precedent. What do you mean the DOJ is saying any reporter at any time could be barred from the White House? That seems like a radical position. And yet that is the position the government's taking.

So I think that is partly, Don, why so many news outlets, even ones that don't like CNN a lot, have come in and...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Let's put it up here, the full screen supporting CNN's position. Fox News, NBC, "Washington Post," and Gannett. We can see the full list there. And that's because they believe there is a bigger principle at stake here, Brian.

STELTER: They know that this week it's about Acosta. But next week it could be about "The New York Times." It could be about NBC. It could even be about Fox News in the future. I think all of these news outlets and even many more that we can't fit on the screen recognize that there are basic first amendment values at stake here. And this lawsuit is about a lot more than just one reporter or one network.

LEMON: Yes.

[22:44:56] STELTER: So we will see what the judge decides. CNN is asking for a temporary restraining order, which in effect would return Acosta's Press Pass right away. But this isn't going to be over tomorrow. This is going to play out in the courts, because CNN also wants the judge to conclude that what the Trump administration did last week was unconstitutional.

You can't just go and revoke somebody's Press Pass out of nowhere for no good reason. That's what CNN wants declared, but the government is vigorously defending this.

LEMON: CNN's attorneys did bring up something that wasn't in the original filing. And that was an e-mail the Trump campaign sent out today, trying to raise money off of the lawsuit. What did they say about it? STELTER: Yes, very curious, right? Trump is out there trying to capitalize on this lawsuit from CNN, trying to show it off to his supporters. The lawyers for CNN in court today said look, this is another example of the case that CNN is trying to make, which is that Acosta is being discriminated against for his content. This is not about his behavior. This is not about anything bigger.

This is about Acosta's -- his aggressive style. It's about Trump not liking CNN. And here's another example. Trump trying to fund raise off of CNN's lawsuit. So the case we're hearing from CNN's lawyers is that this is discrimination. This is an anti-First Amendment move. And, you know, again, the Judge, Timothy J. Kelly, who is a Trump appointee, there's a lot riding on his decision tomorrow.

He wanted to sleep on it, I think spent the night thinking about it, and then rule tomorrow. So tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. is the hearing. And it's not just CNN that's going to be paying close attention. I think news outlets across the country are going to be watching...

LEMON: Across the world.

STELTER: Because if Acosta's Press Pass can be suspended, then what about all these other news outlets as well.

LEMON: Yes. And aggressive reporting, that's part of the duties -- we've seen a number of aggressive reporters at the White House.

STELTER: That's right.

LEMON: In the press corps and beyond, thank you, Brian. I appreciate that.

STELTER: Thanks.

LEMON: The President endorsing a bipartisan criminal justice reform bill. Van Jones, who has been working on getting legislation passed, he's on next.

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[22:50:00] LEMON: The President is throwing his support behind a bipartisan criminal justice reform measure today. It's called the First Step Act, and it was crafted by a group of senators working with the President's son-in-law and Senior Adviser, Jared Kushner. Let's discuss now. CNN's Van Jones, a supporter of the measure who has been working on criminal justice even before this administration. He joins us now.

Van, good evening to you. So let's talk what's in the bill before we discuss it, OK? It would shorten mandatory minimum sentences for fire offenses, eliminate provisions that lead to convicts serving consecutive sentences, and will reduce the number of non-violent drug offenders who get caught in mandatory minimums. This -- it isn't grand sweeping reform of the system here, like the bill's name suggests it is a first step. VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is. And, you know, I think

you know, Don, based on your mail. A disproportionate number of people who are incarcerated actually watch this show and believe in you and love your strong stand for justice. And one thing that I want those people watching to know, their families to know that for the 184,000 federal prisoners, all of them would begin to earn good time credit.

They stay out of trouble. They get a few days off their sentence. And for 100,000 of them, if they take classes, they can start earning their way home soon sooner. Also, women who are incarcerated, who are pregnant will no longer be shackled when they're giving birth to babies and other horrific indignities that are happening to women in our federal prisons. So it's a very substantive bill.

It started off as, you know, Don, it was like more of a decorative little bill. This thing has grown. It's gotten stronger as more people have participated. And law enforcement now says if people are taking these classes and coming home job ready, it makes the street safer. So now you have law enforcement endorsing it as well. So it is a very, substantive, positive bill.

LEMON: OK, so law enforcement is endorsing it. What about -- how did it get the President's support?

JONES: Well, you know, you know, obviously, Jared Kushner, his father went to prison. He's been a passionate advocate on this issue for a while. And I think that when you have formerly incarcerated people taking the lead, which has really been the driving force here, and law enforcement, and, you know, strong senators on both sides of the aisle.

President Trump said listen, if this is going to make the streets safer, if this is going to give people a fairer chance, if some of these forgotten men and women, some of them are in Appalachia, as well, let's do something. And so listen. I think you got to give him some credit. When Obama was in office, no matter what he did, the right wing just kicked his butt. I mean he did stuff that the conservatives have been begging him to do, and then he kicked his butt.

So I say the 99 times I don't agree with the President. I am going to give him hell. But on this one, I'll give him a salute and applause. We've got to come together to help the people at the bottom. And if you can't put politics aside to help people who are suffering and struggling in prison, when there's a shot to do something on a bipartisan basis, then I think we've taken politics too far.

LEMON: OK. So let me ask you then. What do you say to critics? Many of them Democrats, who say it doesn't go far enough. And they ask how you can trust this President who has done so many, frankly, racist things.

JONES: Yes. Well, listen, those are two different things. It is true that the bill doesn't go far enough. Frankly, you probably couldn't pass a bill that goes far enough for me, because we have 2.2 million people in prison. And I think a lot of those people could come home tomorrow and be just fine. But it's a first step. And we held out for way too much under Obama and wound up getting nothing.

So I think now we're learning a little bit. Let's take the first step. Let's break the log jam. Let's show that we can work together and get something done. Trust is a different issue. Trust, you know, this idea of trust is almost like a light switch. Do you trust or do you not trust. I see it more like a dimmer switch. Where can I trust? Who can I trust? For what can I trust?

[22:54:57] Do I believe that this President will sign a bill that law enforcement says will make the streets safer. And that by the way, civil rights groups like, I trust he will sign that bill. And so I think that we should actually be happy that there's something that he might actually do that we would celebrate. And by the way, he can still say he's tough on crime, because law enforcement says this will make streets safer, because people are going to be coming home better.

So everybody -- every now and again, everybody can win, and maybe we should take yes for an answer sometimes.

LEMON: OK. Will it pass in the Senate?

JONES: I think it can pass. But listen, it is not a done deal. And there are senators on both sides still working to try to improve it, to fix it, to tweak it. But I think it can pass in the Senate. McConnell said he's going to do a count this week. If McConnell can find 60 senators that say that they will support this bill, it can pass. I think that it will pass.

And listen. To the extent that there might be a little sweetener here, a little there that could make things better, wonderful. But let's not make the perfect, the enemy of the good. There are 200,000 people behind bars right now. They have no hope. They have no help. We haven't passed a bill to help them in almost two generations. This is something that could be done. And both parties can take some credit for it. And I hope that we will give this thing a chance to pass.

LEMON: We will follow. Thank you, Van Jones. I appreciate your time.

JONES: Thank you.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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