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Don Lemon Tonight
Trump Furious with the Russia Probe; Trump's Legal Team Prepares Written Answers to Mueller; Better Late Than Never; Florida Missing the Election Recount Deadline; Former First Lady Michelle Obama Opening Up. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired November 15, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Maybe. Look, it can't a very comforting thing to see somebody who spent a decade by your side, hearing you talk about everything under the sun, helping you through some really sticky wickets, right. That can't be helpful.
But sitting with lawyers for four hours and finally having to focus on a bunch of questions when you know that the people who are going to be reviewing the answers are looking at it with an eye towards criminal action--
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes.
CUOMO: -- maybe not against the president, maybe not right now. But that can be unsettling also. But something happened, Don, because those tweets this morning, those were the act of a worried man.
LEMON: Yes. OK. So, good. That's where I'm going, Mr. Attorney. So, if your -- you're an attorney.
CUOMO: Yes, I am.
LEMON: OK. So, if you, through the questions his attorneys would know, like, OK, this is what they're getting at. And if they're asking these particular questions, Mr. President, then they must have something related to this or that leads to this or what have you. That's concerning. And his lawyers have told him that, correct?
CUOMO: Sure. I mean, look, these, you know, these aren't fun facts. You know, they're not frequently asked questions that they're just passing along to the president. This is all tactical. And the assumption that, well, hey, look, it's better than being in person. Maybe yes, maybe no.
You know, once you write it down there's a permanency to that, that literally you will have written in your position on that particular subject, that particular issue. But at the same time his lawyers know something else.
If he's asking us these questions, he may not have any other proof of these things. That's an assumption also. But the biggest concern is these are all questions that go to actions or curiosities or simple questions of fact about things that happened before he was president. And that's very important because of his immunity as an executive under the law. Once he's president it's very hard to go after him. For things before he's president it's different.
LEMON: Do you ever tweet in all caps?
CUOMO: Me?
LEMON: Yes. I know you respond to eggs -- there are no more eggs any more on Twitter but --
CUOMO: No, there are eggs.
LEMON: There are eggs still?
CUOMO: Or there are birds, I don't know, whatever.
LEMON: Yes, whatever. But in all caps? I mean, that's crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I mean, sometimes. It's not like one of the tools in my box.
LEMON: I never do that.
CUOMO: But every once in a while. Sometimes I do it as a little bit of like a mocking of what the president has done in his own tweet. But I don't believe you need caps to relay tone. The president does. He's trying to highlight things. I just think that it's -- and I know you're going to smack me down for this.
But I can't believe that the men and women around this man let him tweet the things that he does when he know -- they have to know the minute they look at them, the minute they hear the idea, this is going to hurt us.
Him saying that Mueller served under Obama for eight years. It's just not true. And there's no reason for him to double the amount of time that Mueller worked under Obama. Why do that? Why--
LEMON: Two things. He's a grown -- a man as they say. He's a grown man. How are you going to stop a grown man from doing what a grown man wants to do?
CUOMO: Politicians get stopped from doing things and get made to do things all the time by those around them.
LEMON: OK. And he knows that there's a certain segment of the population who will believe whatever he says regardless--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He's banking on it. That's why I have that segment, "Don't be a sucker." Because he's playing you for a fool and hoping that you that believe him over everything else. But he's open to suggestion. The Federalist Society gave him a list of judges, Don. LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They were waiting for him to call them and ask them questions. The call never came. He just took the list and went right with what they wanted. So, you know, he's open to suggestion when he wants to be.
LEMON: We should do that show together. I'll help you with your idea. I'll help your idea come to fruition.
CUOMO: Don't be a sucker?
LEMON: Yes, don't be a sucker. Don't be a sucker, sucker. It sounds like--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I'm going to get you, sucker.
LEMON: On Fred -- Fred Sanford. You, old fish-eye fool.
CUOMO: You know, I used a Fred Sanford line. It was actually grayly (ph). Great googly moogly.
LEMON: Great googly moogly.
CUOMO: I said tonight on the show.
LEMON: I want my daddy's records back. That was skillet. I think wow, we're going way back. Did you just say to me, I didn't hear in the cross-talk before? Did you just say you walked to work like a man? You walked like a man? Did you say that?
CUOMO: Yes, I did say that. But I was also lying.
LEMON: That would be the first time for you.
CUOMO: I didn't walk. I took a car. I sat in the back. I sat in the back. Like a TV man.
LEMON: Sat in the back of your limo and someone probably did a pedicure for you.
CUOMO: That's exactly right. Natural sheen.
LEMON: Seriously, though, but if only it was that glamorous, right? OK. Well, maybe for you. Who knows? I'm not as fancy as you.
CUOMO: No. Not you, D. Lemon. Bare bones. That's why I love you.
LEMON: Hey, Chris, I'll see you. Nice work. I've got a lot of show to get to. Be safe out there.
CUOMO: See you tomorrow.
LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. So, let's talk about the president. President Trump, in his tweets
this morning, confirming all the reporting about him over the last few days. That he is angry. That he is unhinged. That he is, this is a quote, "pissed at damn near everyone." That's a White House official quote -- a quote from a White House official.
[22:05:01] Sources say he's in a foul mood because he feels backed into a corner. Especially about Robert Mueller's Russia investigation. Which may be closing in on him and his inner circle. The president's been meeting with his lawyers for the last three days going over written answers to questions from Mueller's team.
Here's what "The Washington Post" is reporting tonight. That the president's lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, says some of the questions pose possible legal obstacles and some possible traps for President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: When he is backed into a corner, he really has only one move, and that's to lash out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, that is why the president tore into Mueller this morning, tweeting, "The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts. They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our nation and don't care how many lives the ruin." Should that be "they ruin," right? "How many lives the ruin. A total witch hunt like no other in American history."
So, a lot to pick apart here. Trump's been claiming all along that Mueller's found no collusion. Although he doesn't know that. But claiming the investigation is a total mess. That Mueller's team is screaming and shouting and threatening people to come up with the answers that Mueller wants.
That makes no sense. Because anyone who knows Robert Mueller or has worked with him, remember, he was the FBI director for years. They will tell you he is the consummate professional. Just do some internet searches. Ask some people.
The only one screaming, shouting, and threatening appears to be Trump. And what role his new acting attorney general Matt Whitaker, what is he playing? Now that he is overseeing Mueller's investigation? Remember, he's been critical of it in the past.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
Matthew Whitaker, ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: For whatever reason, Rod Rosenstein has determined that the Department of Justice couldn't handle this in their ordinary course of work, which I think is ridiculous. I think it smells a little fishy.
(END VOICE CLIP) LEMON: Well, there have been calls for Whitaker to recuse himself
from the investigation. He's not going to do that yet. Nancy Pelosi had this to say today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: President Trump installed Matthew Whitaker as acting A.G. for one purpose -- to end the investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And there has been real concern all along that President Trump will fire Robert Mueller or try some other way to end the Russia investigation. But the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's refusing to allow a vote on the bipartisan bill. He is doing that and he doesn't want to allow that bill to protect the Mueller investigation. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I talk to the president fairly often. No indication that the Mueller investigation will not be allowed to finish.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: He threatens the investigation almost every day. He did this morning in his tweets. To say that the president hasn't threatened the special counsel is not only logically dubious, it's just dead wrong and untrue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, he blocked the vote. Yesterday Senator Mitch McConnell blocked a vote on the latest attempt to protect the investigation.
So, President Trump is also doing some damage control with veterans. After he was roundly criticized for canceling a planned visit to an American military cemetery in France on Saturday. He canceled it due to the rain. And doing nothing to mark Veterans Day on Monday.
He's also a commander in chief who has not yet made a trip to visit troops stationed overseas, as his predecessors have done. So, today, he and the first lady dropped by the marine barracks in Washington to meet with dozens of marines. And then the president addressed veterans and their families at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To everyone here today who has served our country in uniform and to every veteran and military family across our land I want to express the eternal gratitude and thanks of our entire nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president finished his address by saying that veterans appreciate everything he and his administration are doing for them.
Let's talk about the president's meltdown over the encroaching Russia investigation with Frank Bruni, Laura Coates, and David Axelrod. Right after this.
[22:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump raging today, lashing out at Robert Mueller and his team on Twitter. But it's been a month-long -- a month since he's tweeted about the special counsel. So, why is he so riled up right now?
Joining me now, Frank Bruni, Laura Coates, David Axelrod. Good evening. It certainly is very interesting. He's having a meltdown. He's had a meltdown this morning with Mueller, you know, tweeting -- and over this White House dysfunction. He's saying it's fake news. Right?
FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.
LEMON: But don't you think his tweeting confirms exactly what he's thinking and that the reporting, he's calling it fake, but doesn't it confirm that?
BRUNI: Well, I mean, it's almost as if he's proving that all the reports about his mood and how sour he's feeling and how panicked he's feeling, all of it was manifest in those tweets this morning.
I think he was distracted for a while by the midterms and by those big rallies and those adoring crowds. He kind of forgot about Robert Mueller for a while. But now Washington is thick with rumors about the possibility of indictments being handed down including possibly against Donald Trump, Jr. who has told friends he's worried he's about to be indicted.
So, this right now at this moment in time has become very real again to President Trump. He's huddled with his lawyers, right. Coming up with written answers.
[22:14:59] So, I mean, this is present and pressing in his life in a way it wasn't for many weeks. And it's coming after the humiliation of the midterms. I think he's in a, you know, he's in a bad spot.
LEMON: I'll move on to the other guests. This is something I didn't get to last night but it was in the reporting. Our reporting. Some of his long-time confidants are worried for his health, believing he's gained weight and looks unwell. We haven't seen a lot of them. We've seen some of them. But you've seen that reporting. What do you think?
BRUNI: It jibes with the visual evidence, and I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting they're saying that.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: Because it's got to really get to him because he is one of the most physically vain people one could know. You only have to look at his hair to know that.
LEMON: Right.
BRUNI: And they know that this stuff they're saying is getting out into the media, and I think that's getting under his skin too.
LEMON: Laura, CNN is reporting the president met with his attorneys the last three days to discuss written responses to the special counsel. Rudy Giuliani is telling the Washington Post that some of them, quote, "create more issues for us legally than others." Is he admitting the president is in legal peril?
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he is. He's also indicating that of course he is -- acknowledges that he's going to have to respond to things and there actually is legal exposure here. Which should be a shock to no one.
But I also look at Rudy Giuliani's statement and think to myself, perhaps he did not anticipate the volume or the breadth of subject matter that Mueller would focus on.
Remember, for a very long time Rudy Giuliani's been talking about obstruction of justice, what questions he will not answer. There's nothing there-there about that aspect. He's now seeing that the bulk of the questioning may be things he did not anticipate.
The timeline for all the questioning has to do with things before the campaign actually -- before the inauguration. All during the campaign which would presumably exclude all discussions about obstruction like James Comey's firing, et cetera.
So, do you see things that Giuliani didn't anticipate but he certainly is admitting that there is some reason for the president to be nervous about the legal exposure. That's confirmed in his statements and reiterated by the president's own tweets.
LEMON: But Laura, I mean, he said some of the questions are a possible trap. I mean, that's what he's saying. Isn't that a misnomer, especially if you just tell the truth?
COATES: Well, yes. The idea of a perjury trap or a trap in some way, Don, imagine, every single trial, every single time a prosecutor stands up in court and asks questions of a witness on the stand, there is the potential for that person to say something that will further jeopardize their liberty.
Now, you would not confirm or say or even allude to the fact that every time somebody asks a question it's a perjury trap that excuses you from having to answer questions.
In fact, the Supreme Court ruled on the issue of nobody being above the law and even the president's own position in the U.S. versus Nixon case would not say that it makes you above the law because he ran the executive branch of government. If anything, one would expect the president of the United States to be more likely and expected to answer questions and not view everything as a perjury trap. But you're right. Just the fact you'd have to answer a question, if
you think that the answer to a question that may be benign or open- ended will get you into legal jeopardy, well, perhaps what you've done is in fact criminal.
LEMON: I want to bring David in now. David, hello again. As much as Trump wants this all to be over with, it's now coming to a head. That's obvious.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, without question. And I think really in answer to your first question I think the meeting with his lawyers the last few days has brought that into stark relief. Perhaps the realization that there's now a Democratic House and questions that hadn't been asked before will be asked has added to it.
What was striking to me about his tweets was, you know, the psychiatrists have -- psychologists have this term "projection." And you know, he was talking about the inner workings of the special counsel are a mess and they're shouting and screaming and wailing on people until they get the answers they want. This is precisely the reporting we're seeing out of the White House right now about the president.
LEMON: Right.
AXELROD: It's so ironic to read this in his tweet.
LEMON: How would he know, David, though, about the inner workings of the investigation? How would he know?
AXELROD: Yes, I don't think he does. I mean, he may hear from people who've testified or he may hear back door stories about people who've testified and what they report.
But I will tell you this. I ran into someone who had been called by the special counsel. And while they were obviously circumspect, as they should be, about it. I said, well, what was the impression you had in spending time with them? He said my impression was they know an awful lot. They know more than anybody imagines.
And I think that to Laura's point that is now becoming apparent to the president. And he understands -- I mean, he, there are two people who may know more about this than anybody. One is Robert Mueller and the other is Donald Trump. It's beginning to occur to Donald Trump that Robert Mueller knows an uncomfortable amount of information that he thought was privileged to him.
LEMON: Yes. Where is--
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: Well, if I can just say too, Don--
LEMON: Go ahead. [22:20:00] COATES: If I can add to one thing if you don't mind. And
this idea, I think we're believing the president is perhaps being unhinged and he's speculating or opining but remember the timing of it.
If I want to be the cynic in this case, and I will be right now, he did install Matthew Whitaker, who just last week -- and he's been a vocal and very persistent critic of the Mueller investigation, and technically as the acting attorney general, the part of the statute that allows him to oversee the Mueller special counsel probe would entail him being able to be briefed on what Mueller has. Now we haven't heard yet whether Matthew Whitaker had been briefed or--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: So, you think he's been briefed already? Do you think he has?
COATES: We don't know.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: But the fact the president -- I think there's likelihood that he has been exposed or at least has had some access to documents or an overview of where the investigation stands. I have no indication that Mueller has fought as fervently as perhaps others have in Maryland, for example, or other people saying that Whitaker is not the -- a constitutional successor to Jeff Sessions.
But maybe the president is not only speculating. He may be relaying his impression of what he knows. I don't think that's the case. I think that Mueller's investigation has been a very tight ship up till now and perhaps it leans toward speculation. But there's always that potential.
LEMON: Interesting. And that he's relaying it right to the White House. Wow.
Frank, I mentioned this. The president and the first lady visited marine barracks in D.C. today. Anytime a president visits our troops, that's a good thing. But this was -- I don't know. Was he making up some ground? Was this damage control for the events over the weekend that he missed in Paris and then Veterans Day?
BRUNI: I think it was. I think that's the perfect word for it. But I also think it's damage control on two levels. It's partly about the criticism that he has rightly received, about missing that event, about doing nothing for Veterans Day.
The other bit of damage control is the first lady just did something extraordinary and unprecedented over recent days, which is that she went around her husband. She went around the president about a staffing matter to get somebody fired. And I think this is damage control in terms of visiting veterans, but also in terms of stepping out in public with the first lady and showing people they were together, they didn't seem tense. I think he wanted to do that as well. I think it was an important thing to do. LEMON: Let's talk more about the first lady because I want to play
this. First Lady Melania Trump with a message to the media and her critics about her cyberbullying campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: As I have said before, it is not news or surprising to me that critics and the media have chosen to ridicule me for speaking out on this issue. And that's OK.
I remain committed to tackling this topic because it will provide a better world for our children. And I hope that like I do, you will consider using their negative words as motivation to do all you can to bring awareness and understanding about responsible online behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, considering especially the tweets this morning from her husband. But why is this relevant right now? I mean, I really don't care. Do you?
BRUNI: It's completely irrelevant--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You missed that, didn't you?
BRUNI: It's completely -- it's completely irrelevant right now. Melania Trump just continues to be a deeper and deeper and greater mystery.
LEMON: Yes.
BRUNI: I mean, her behavior over recent days. Something is going on in this White House between the first lady and the president. And all of this I think is some sort of drama that we can't begin to understand. But it's going to be interesting to see where it goes.
LEMON: David, you sit down with Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor for the upcoming episode of "THE AXE FILES." Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AXELROD: Surely you know this clip is going to be probably for the duration of your tenure on the court a conservative court.
SONIA SOTOMAYOR, ASSOCIATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I don't know what that word means. Conservative, liberal. Those are political terms. Do I suspect that I might be dissenting a bit more? Possibly. But I still have two relatively new colleagues. One very new colleague, Brett Kavanaugh, and Neil Gorsuch. And we've agreed in quite a few cases. We've disagreed on a bunch. But you know, let's see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Mr. Axelrod, she sounds almost optimistic.
AXELROD: Yes. Well, I think she sounds like you'd expect a Supreme Court justice to sound she's very conscious of the fact that there's a certain comedy expected of the court. And she does talk about how the politicization of the process is disturbing and the perception of the course -- court as a political institution.
But what was really interesting was when she got into some fundamental issues based on her own life story, affirmative action, for example, when she talked about why she dissented from the bench on the travel ban case in which she spoke out very, very emotionally in her dissent.
It's clear that there's going to be some stormy times ahead, at least in terms of the tenor of these opinions.
[22:25:04] She understands that her role on the court is to speak from the perspective not just of the law, which she is there to uphold, but through her own life experience. That's going to bring her I think into conflict from time to time with these new members.
LEMON: Looking forward to it. Thank you all. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, David's guest on "THE AXE FILES," Saturday at 7 Eastern right here on CNN.
The president holding an event to support veterans today but it's coming after he didn't go to the American cemetery in France because of rain and he didn't go to Arlington on Veterans Day. I'm going to ask General Michael Hayden what message is the president sending to the troops?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: You want to sit down and watch this one. You are going to, I guarantee you, you're going to learn a lot from this. It will be eye- opening. President Trump having a tantrum on Twitter this morning, raging over the Mueller investigation as he hunkers down with his legal team to prepare responses to the special counsel's questions.
A lot to discuss with General Michael Hayden, the author of "The Assault on Intelligence, American National Security in an Age of Lies." You're the reason I want people to sit down. Because this is, I think these are -- by the way, good evening.
MICHAEL HAYDEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks. Good evening.
LEMON: These are pretty poignant times, especially when you look at what's happening in the president's mood and also with the new acting attorney general coming in.
HAYDEN: Yes.
LEMON: Why do you think he's back at it, the president meaning, attacking the Mueller investigation so viciously?
HAYDEN: Yes. He goes off campus. He goes to Paris. It's not a good weekend for him. He comes back, and now he's faced to literally look at his own testimony to approve the language and to be prepared to sign off on the language.
[22:30:05] And I think this brings this into the foreground. He's presented with some, I think, undeniable realities. And Don, we're from the outside looking in, right? And so we're trying to do psychological profiles here. The President seems to be very concerned about what it is he expects to happen, probably in the near future. And he's acting out in a way that only he does.
LEMON: It started for me when Michael Cohen ended up in Washington. They got the video of him in the airport. Also with the wall Street Journal reporting, right? Like 36 sources or 34 or 36 sources, you know, that I am sure, and then also now that he's been answering these questions from his legal team, which is probably -- his legal counsel, which is probably giving him some idea as to what they're -- where does this investigation go next.
HAYDEN: Right. And it's probably broader than he thought. It's deeper than he thought. You know -- look. It's a completely different area. But I think there's a parallel. The most powerful tool we had to make an Al Qaeda detainee off balance was actually knowing more than he thought we knew. When we went in there and asked a question that clearly revealed a deeper knowledge than he had anticipated.
I know this is a completely different circumstance. But there may be something of that dynamic going on here.
LEMON: Yes. So I will ask you that. Because we have Matthew Whitaker now, who is the Acting Attorney General, and you heard -- I am not sure if you heard Laura Coates in the last segment saying it could be that he's acting this way because he thinks he knows something, because he's being fed information from the now Acting Attorney General, who is -- they're not sure. No one is sure if he has been briefed on this matter.
What do you say to that? Do you think it's possible that the Acting Attorney General has briefed him on what he knows about the Mueller investigation?
HAYDEN: I think it's possible that the Acting Attorney General has briefed him on what the Acting Attorney General believes he knows, which is different I think than what may actually be going on. This may be through a glass darkly by the Acting Attorney General. He may feel some sense of loyalty to keep the nation's chief law enforcement officer, which is the President, broadly informed about this.
But I would be very surprised if Director Mueller had given him total transparency into what's going on, particularly at any level of detail.
LEMON: He doesn't know everything, meaning Whitaker, and Mueller does not have to share everything.
HAYDEN: No. Look, I was Director of CIA. I owed the President everything. But I couldn't possibly tell him everything. And there are some things that were not ready for primetime. And there was no good served by telling him. I think Director Mueller might be served by that same metric when it comes to revealing to his superiors where he is, what he's doing.
LEMON: You were in France at the same time as the President.
HAYDEN: Yes.
LEMON: So let's talk about the President in France. Didn't make it to the American cemetery to honor Americans fallen, allegedly because the helicopter wouldn't fly in rain. You were in France, as I say, at the same time. You visited the American cemetery in Normandy. I just want to get your reaction to that.
HAYDEN: Yes. It was actually quite stunning. And made more stunning because we were there in France -- when you walk Normandy, you see the cemetery, Omaha, Utah, Pointe du Hoc. You see the depth of history that American and French sacrifice has made admittedly in the Second World War, and we were celebrating the end of the First World War. And so the President's indifference, or maybe it's just lack of information about history, that had to be at the basis of that decision.
I will tell you what I thought, OK? The only acceptable explanation, the only acceptable excuse for a President not making it to the ceremony was probably death. I mean death of the President or death of a close family member. I am serious. Anyone who understood what was being commemorated that weekend would not have allowed his staff to talk him out of going to that cemetery.
LEMON: So today, I am sure you know the reporting. He visited the marine barracks, held an event about supporting veterans today, but he didn't make it to Arlington for Veterans Day. He has never visited troops abroad. You have missing out on Paris. What do you think of this, too little too late?
HAYDEN: Look, personal opinion, he goes to 8th and I, visits the marine barracks. I am sure the marines were happy. I am sure they accommodated him. But I mean this is pretty transparent. This is attempting to recoup some public image that he lost on the weekend, that he lost by insulting the French, that he lost by not going across the river to Arlington. I mean for God sake, Don, what would it have taken to even informally have gotten into a small motorcade Monday afternoon.
[22:34:59] Go over to the tomb of the unknown without ceremony, pay respects there, say hi to the -- I am sure thousands of Americans who were there at that point, and then go back to the White House? I mean why is that so obvious to you and me and not to him?
LEMON: That was my next question. Why not do that? I don't understand it.
HAYDEN: I just don't -- so number one, it suggests, and it's related to one of your earlier questions. He's probably distraught, all right? And on a human level, let's just all understand that if you got -- you think the FBI's closing in on you, you're going to be distraught whether you're guilty or not. So we can put that aside.
LEMON: Congress has the subpoena power.
HAYDEN: Yes. You've got the flip of one chamber of Congress, which portends a different two years than the preceding two years. And then finally, I do think there's this lack of appreciation for history, this lack of identification with the American narrative.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you.
HAYDEN: Thank you.
LEMON: Appreciate your time. Well, three counties in Florida missing their recount deadline, and their incompetence mean that people's votes just weren't counted. Why is this happening in Florida again?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:40:00] LEMON: LEMON: So it is official. The Florida Senate race is now facing another recount. This time by hand. New numbers released by Florida's Secretary of State shows Republican Rick Scott leading Democratic Senator Bill Nelson by 12,603 votes, or .15 percent. That is within the legal margin for a hand recount. But three counties in the state failed to meet today's deadline for machine recounts.
And I am talking about Broward, Hillsborough, and Palm Beach counties. That means their initial tallies, their totals from last week, those totals will stand. Broward County was actually just two minutes late with the new recount totals, but the Secretary of State wouldn't accept the results. Just two minutes late. What excuse is there for Broward County cutting it so close? Palm Beach County is blaming their 11-year-old voting machines.
They apparently overheated, causing mismatched results and forcing staffers to redo their work. Susan Bucher, the Supervisor of elections in the county, said that those faulty machines made meeting today's deadline impossible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN BUCHER, SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS, PALM BEACH COUNTY, FLORIDA: We gave it everything we had. I am very proud of my team. And we are a good election office and I have a great team. I think we just got stuck with some mechanical issues that were inherited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mechanical issues. It's 2018. You're blaming mechanical issues, really? That's embarrassing. It's even more embarrassing because this is not the first time that they've dealt with voting machine problems. Remember this? Eighteen years ago, Palm Beach County was home to the controversial butterfly ballot at the heart of the 2000 recount. Many voters said that they may have voted for the wrong candidate because they were confused. Palm Beach was also one of the counties where recounts were conducted
using punch card ballots. Remember officials looking at partially punched ballots where there were dimpled chads or hanging chads. Remember that? Why are there still issues? And Palm Beach County is not alone. Hillsborough County is blaming two power outages and lost a voting machine for a drop in votes counted. That's why they decided to stick with the initial numbers.
This is unacceptable. Get some new machines, ones that work. Figure it out. Crucial Florida counties not meeting this deadline disenfranchises voters. It means that their votes were not counted. Now, that is not American. That's un-American. There are a lot of people in this country who make baseless claims about voter fraud in the United States. This kind of incompetence frankly doesn't help that.
The 2020 election less than two years away and Florida is a key state. Every vote must count, in Florida, every state in this nation. The integrity of the country's election system is at stake. Mark Caputo joins me now. He's in Miami. He's a Senior Political Reporter for Politico Florida. Good evening to you. Wow, mechanical issues in 2018? You're a Florida guy. What is going on?
MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO FLORIDA: Florida's acting like Florida. I don't know if you remember the movie Fatal Attraction with Glenn Close, where she says I will not be ignored. You know the crazy person. Florida's kind of like that when it comes to elections. And periodically, we have these meltdowns. There are a few reasons for it. But among them is the fact that we are such a closely divided state that we have close elections.
And there's the famous prayer of election supervisors of oh God, please don't let me have a close election. We have this many people voting and this many ballots cast. You have margins of errors with big systems, and these races fell within the margin of error. But it's also true that some of these machines are old, certainly in Palm Beach County. And there are some other problems, perhaps with some staffing in some of these counties that need to be addressed.
LEMON: Mark, today, the Democrats picked up another House seat in Maine. That's a net gain of 33 seats, and there are still seven races that are too close to call. Do you think this blue wave is going to get even bigger?
CAPUTO: Well, it sounds like nationally it has. The weird thing is that in Florida we're used to us being a purple state and us reflecting the nation. And so while the nation, certainly at the House level, went so strongly blue, Florida went stronger red. We elected at least -- so far looks like he's going to be elected I should say, Governor Rick Scott to topple or replace Senator Bill Nelson.
[22:44:59] And it looks, for all intents and purpose, that Ron DeSantis, the very Trumpy Republican, is -- or has beaten Andrew Gillum for the Governor's race. So we're kind of bucking the trend. Now, that having been said, there was a net pickup of two seats here for Democrats in Congress, in South Florida, of Florida's 26th and 27th congressional district. So my lens in Florida has been OK, we haven't seen this blue wave that we're seeing nationally.
And indeed we didn't see it on Election Day. So there's an open question of whether the rest of the nation is kind of moving a little more blue and we're moving a little more red.
LEMON: Yes. So Florida speaking, strictly about Florida -- as I said in the introduction to you, Florida's going to be key for 2020. How optimistic or pessimistic should we be about these problems being fixed by then?
CAPUTO: Well, it's probably always a good idea to think that there's going to be close elections in Florida. You know if you flip a coin, it can land on its edge. We had that happen like three times in a row here with three different statewide races where, again, it was within the margin of error. It's also a pretty good bet that there's going to be a problem in Florida, because there have been at different times.
The good news it is hopefully the next Governor, again, likely DeSantis, and the next legislature, which will also be Republican- controlled, will want to make sure that there are good voting machines. So one of the problems I think that Governor Scott made is he came out early and started talking about fraud when there was no evidence for it. And so far, there still is really no evidence for it.
But now, it's incumbent on them because they are the Republicans who run the state. They are the politicians who run the state. And they have an opportunity to make things better. And the question is are they.
LEMON: Thank you, Mr. Caputo. Appreciate it.
CAPUTO: Thank you.
LEMON: So Michelle Obama, the First Lady, revealing in her new book why she won't forgive President Trump. And tonight, she is telling Oprah even more of what she thinks about the President.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: It was reckless, and it put my family in danger, and it wasn't true. And he knew it wasn't true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00] LEMON: Michelle Obama opening up tonight about why she says she'll never forgive Donald Trump for pushing the birther conspiracy theory. Here's what she said to Oprah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: To think that some crazed person who was ginned up to think that somehow my husband was a threat to the country's security, and to know that we have shootings anyway, and to know that my children everyday had to go to a school that was guarded but not secure, that they had to go to soccer games and parties and travel and go to college, that this person would not take into account that this is not a game, is something that I want the country to understand.
You know I want the country to take this in a way that I didn't say out loud, but I am saying it now. It was reckless, and it put my family in danger, and it wasn't true. And he knew it wasn't true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Former First Lady there speaking to Oprah. I want to bring in now former Obama administration Aide Desiree Barnes. Hi, Desiree, good to see you.
DESIREE BARNES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AIDE: Good to see you, too, Don.
LEMON: What did you think of what she said, because you were in the White House during much of this time? You worked for the administration. When she talks about this birther lie that then Donald Trump before he was President. It's such a powerful moment because everyone can identify with a family being afraid.
BARNES: Yes. I couldn't agree more. I mean we believe in speaking fact, not fiction. And I think that words matter. And I think that the current administration should be more concerned about the rhetoric that they put out there. But I do agree with her. And again, she's a mother. And I think any mother can relate to that.
LEMON: How frustrating was it for you -- you know Valerie Jarrett was on earlier in the week and I asked her the same thing regarding -- she was on to talk about the book, but just how frustrating it was working in the administration and hearing just that lie over and over from this man, when there was no proof about the birther conspiracy, and on and on, and then just ginning up all of this anger and hatred and racial resentment in the country.
BARNES: It was painful. It was frustrating. You know, though, Mrs. Obama has said when they go low, we go high. I think that speaks to her character and just how much of a class act she is. But I will say you know it's hard to exercise that kind of restraint. I am very aware as like a woman of color that however I approach a situation could have the -- you know the opportunity to overshadow what it is that the end result I am looking to achieve.
And so I have to be very mindful of my presence and my words. But it is extremely frustrating when you have those out there who don't believe in telling the truth.
LEMON: Desiree, I want to play another clip from this interview with Oprah. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you feel the pressure being the first black family because you know...
OBAMA: Duh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duh. Because we've all been raised with you've got to work twice as hard, got to work twice as hard to get half as far. And before you came out, I was saying, meticulous, not a misstep.
OBAMA: Do you think that was an accident?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know it was no accident, but did you feel the pressure of that?
OBAMA: Absolutely. We felt the pressure from the minute we started to run. We would talk about that and just how -- first of all, we had to convince our base that a black man could win. It wasn't even winning over Iowa. First, we had to win over black people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:55:09] LEMON: All true. I remember that. Listen, African- Americans were not on board, many of them, especially the ones who were lawmakers now, because they thought well, didn't have enough experience. He's got to prove this, so many of the African-American community were not on board. But we've talked about this. There are different expectations many times for people of color, right, than for our counterparts, the larger culture. This -- you know Barack Obama's presidency was historic. Did you at all feel pressure every single day, the weight of history so to speak?
BARNES: Absolutely. I mean you didn't even have to be a minority or a female in the White House to feel that pressure as a staffer to really execute your job and be above reproach. We always wanted to make sure that we were focused on the work that we were doing to serve the American people, and nothing that we did personally should overshadow that. But I definitely think that. And I have to say Mrs. Obama was a great example of that.
But there were also other women of color in that White House who worked their butts off and who were just very strong and great role models, from Susan Rice, to Valerie Jarrett, to Jocelyn Fry, to Jennifer Palmieri, and a few other folks, even my first boss, Kristin Jarvis. I really have to say that she cultivated a community women that regardless of whether they were in junior staffer positions or senior staff positions, that really were protective and knew that they had to be above reproach in everything that they did.
LEMON: Let me -- I am going to get in trouble because we're over time. But I've got to ask you this. As you sit here now, you said that you're aware of the weight of history. You didn't have to be a person of color working in the White House, and a scandal free -- I know people want to gin up and make up things, scandal free administration for eight years. Policy difference is fine. People can do -- but anything that is scandal-related is made up.
There was no scandal when it comes to this administration. Personal scandals, I am talking about.
BARNES: No drama Obama.
LEMON: So you see every single day the things that come out of this White House and the administration, do you just sit back and go what the -- what do you think?
BARNES: You know I am a results-driven person, so all the chitchat really doesn't bother me. And I just try not to tune into that. But you know if he's able to serve the American people in the way that they deserve and give opportunity and access to every single family who is out there trying to do their best, then, you know, I won't stand in the way of that.
LEMON: Such a classy answer. There you go.
BARNES: I try.
LEMON: Those are the kind of folks that were in the Obama administration. And Desiree Barnes was one of them. Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on. Good to see you.
BARNES: Thank you so much for having me, Don.
LEMON: Happy thanksgiving to you and your family.
BARNES: Same to you.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
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