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Don Lemon Tonight

Paul Manafort Lied to Mueller's Team and FBI; Trump Still Calls Russia Investigation a Witch-Hunt; President Trump is Refusing to Acknowledge Climate Change; Donald Trump Accusing Some Border Patrol Agents Were Badly Injured; President Trump Dismissed CIA's Assessment Pertaining to Jamal Khashoggi's Death; President Trump Blamed California's Devastating Wildfires on Poor Forest Management. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired November 26, 2018 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: What is it about Putin that makes this man so malleable? He is tougher on the American press than he is on Vladimir Putin, even his own staff he's tougher on than he is on Putin. Why? That's a question that I don't know we'll ever get the answer.

Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" starts with Don Lemon right now. Maybe you know.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It always comes out in the rinse. One day, sooner or later, it will surface.

CUOMO: I don't know.

LEMON: I don't know how sooner or how later, but I think a really good indicator would be tax returns, would be a little--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I don't know.

LEMON: Yes, I think--

CUOMO: I don't know because, look, where he makes his money, how he makes his money -- look, I think you're going to get your answer there.

LEMON: If he borrowed money from, let's say, Russia, or China or in your business--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: He borrowed money from a lot of places. It doesn't necessarily make him loyal to them. But you may get your answer, Don, to be honest because I'd be shocked if the Democrats don't try to get his tax returns.

LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: There's a committee that has that within their purview, ways

and means. And Ritchie O'Neill -- Richie Neal, the guy who was the congressman who we believe is going to be in charge of that for the Democrats.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: He's going to become a really relevant guy all of a sudden.

LEMON: Yes. Well, he's going to fight it, this president. Obviously, he's fighting. He doesn't want to interview with Mueller face to face. He's going to fight Democrats. He's already calling them out, saying bring it on. You know, it's going to be a standoff. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what he's saying.

CUOMO: Not easy to beat a subpoena from Congress.

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: Especially for documents.

LEMON: Not at all. But what are they going to go? Put him -- they can't--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I don't know. I'm not a big believer in their value. I know I get beat up for a lot of this, you know, selling the Mueller probe is not going to be that revelatory and that, you know, lowering people's expectations.

LEMON: You're not the only one. I have so many people who are, you know, progressives and liberals who are like, Mueller must have something. I'm like, who know, I don't know what he has, but to think that Mueller is going to drive this president from office, I think is being a little bit naive.

And even, let's just say that the president is impeached, right, which is the possibility is that he's going to not be impeached. Bill Clinton was impeached. He still remained president.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: This president can be impeached and still remain president. And the chances are if he is impeached, he will still remain president.

CUOMO: Yes. I don't know how they get it to the Senate.

LEMON: But to think that he's not going to find anything as well, that Mueller won't come up with something that's going to be damaging to this president, I think is naive as well.

CUOMO: I agree. I think at a minimum; this report is going to be really embarrassing and show the people around Trump to be the modern equivalent of the gang that couldn't shoot straight. They were trying to do things that they shouldn't have been doing. They just weren't successful at it.

LEMON: Yes. Like using e-mail on their private e-mails?

CUOMO: And, look, and that's the least of it.

LEMON: Yes. Did you have a good break?

CUOMO: I missed you.

LEMON: Missed you too. Look, but you know what I didn't miss? I ate, look at my cheeks. I ate so much. It was a great plate.

CUOMO: You look good, and I loved that St. Jude shirt you had on.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: If I were Tim, I'd have to give you a pop in the nose for taking a picture of him sleeping like that. That was --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That was reality.

CUOMO: You can't get away with that when you're married, I'll tell you that now.

LEMON: Well, speaking of--

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Speaking of that, so you know where Saturday I was invited but I was on vacation? I was invited to this little shindig, and this was the invitation I got. Can we put that up? This was the invitation. Do you know what that is?

CUOMO: It's a handsome guy on the right. I'll tell you that right now. Lucky lady on the left.

LEMON: Circa 1998, one of your first dates.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: With your lovely wife, Christina. You know, we've been talking. We chat even without you. She said she was -- back then it was at an event for help USA, which is your sister's homeless for housing--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Homeless housing for the less privileged.

LEMON: Yes, for the less privilege. So, there she is. Let me, I'm going to pull up her text. Hold on. Here's what she says. Christina--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Don't betray a confidence or anything like that.

LEMON: No, it's not bad. She said--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Go ahead.

LEMON: She said, it's not bad. It's really. I would never do that to her. She said, it was for a help USA benefit. Maria, his sister's housing for homeless organization, I was very intimidated by the impressive Cuomo women. Altruistic do goaders, a lot of them. And then I added except for you. Meaning you.

CUOMO: You said the women. The joke doesn't make sense, Don. She was talking about the women. She also happens to be right. The women are the true value in the Cuomo family. Housing enterprise for the less privilege. Andrew came up with the idea.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He did not run it as long or as well as my sister Maria. She is a true wonder, and I am a lucky, lucky guy.

LEMON: Well, it's been 20 years since you met--

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: -- not since you've been married. Thank you for inviting me. I'm sorry I couldn't make it.

CUOMO: I didn't know you were invited.

LEMON: I was invited.

CUOMO: I'm going to have to take that up when I get home.

LEMON: You didn't know. Yes, that's a problem, right. Thank you. See you soon.

CUOMO: Take care, pal.

LEMON: Good to be back.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

And we have breaking news on the Mueller investigation to tell you about. The breaking news is on Paul Manafort. Paul Manafort has breached his plea deal.

Mueller says the former Trump campaign chairman lied repeatedly to both Mueller and the FBI after pleading guilty to conspiracy and witness tampering. This was back in September when he pleaded guilty to that.

[22:05:05] So, with all -- what does all this mean to the investigation? Much more on that to come in a moment. We've got a lot to talk about here. It's very interesting.

All of this is happening as President Trump day after day waging a war on reality. Let's be honest. Let's talk about his relationship with reality. Confronted with facts that don't fit his view of the world, his strategy is this. It's simple. Deny, deny, deny. OK. Let's just start with today.

Falsely claiming that migrant children were not tear-gassed at the border this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We didn't. we don't use those at children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, facts really matter, right? And the fact is children were tear-gassed. You can see that for yourself in this picture. There it is.

This is a president who not only denies reality, denies what we have seen with our own eyes, he denies what members of his own administration tell him. Think about that.

There is the big climate change report the White House tried to bury by releasing it on the day after Thanksgiving. A report produced by a team of 13 federal agencies. One thousand six hundred fifty-six pages full of facts, of science, and really frightening predictions about what could happen as temperatures continue to rise. Food could be scarcer. The U.S. economy could lose hundreds of billions of dollars. And thousands more Americans quite frankly could die.

We're already seeing evidence that this country is being hurt by climate change. Farmers in Georgia could lose $2.5 billion in the wake of hurricane Michael. But when burying that report didn't work, President Trump or President T as he has nicknamed himself this weekend, simply says he doesn't believe it even though it's his own administration's report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Yes, I don't believe it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't believe it?

TRUMP: No, no. I don't believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This is a president who is not only anti-science, he's anti- intelligence. His own CIA has concluded that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman personally ordered the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. But President T continues to define -- to defend, I should say, the Saudis and the crown prince, saying "maybe he did and maybe he didn't." And he's made it very clear why he's so willing to defend the Saudis.

It's all about the Benjamins.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you concerned that not pressuring Saudi Arabia more could send a message to world leaders that they can do as they please, and America could be weak in their eyes?

TRUMP: No, not at all. Saudi Arabia has been a longtime strategic partner. They're investing hundreds of billions of dollars in our country. I mean, hundreds of billions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And of course, this president has consistently ignored the clear conclusion of his own intelligence community that Russia interfered in the 2016 election. Tonight, in Mississippi, at it again. Falsely calling the Russia investigation a witch-hunt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We have a lot of bad people. We have a lot of phony stuff like the Russian witch hunt garbage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, this is not true. No matter how many times he says it, the fact is this. Three people have been sentenced to prison in the Russia investigation. Ask them if they think it's phony. One of them, George Papadopoulos, just started his sentence today.

Thirty-five people and entities have been charged with a total of 191 criminal counts, 191 criminal counts. So, witch hunt? Not so much.

So maybe it shouldn't be a surprise that this president seems awfully eager to let the Russians off the hook for opening fire on -- opening fire and seizing three Ukrainian vessels near the Crimea, an act the president's own ambassador to the U.N., Nikki Haley, says the international community must condemn. But the president himself was about as mealy mouthed as he could possibly be. Why can't the tough guy be tough on Russia?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We don't like what's happening, and hopefully it will get straightened out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: On the same day, the president bragged about manufacturing jobs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:00:59] TRUMP: The previous administration, they said manufacturing's never coming back. It's gone. You'd need a magic wand. Well, we found the magic wand, and that's actually--

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: -- that's actually going to be increasing by a lot in the next short while because we have a lot of companies moving in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That was the same day he bragged about manufacturing jobs. It was bad news for G.M. today. The company announcing it will cut 15 percent of its jobs and close five North American plants. Yet, this president has nothing but bluster for CEO Mary Barra.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I was very tough. I spoke with her when I heard they were closing, and I said, you know, this country has done a lot for General Motors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Empty, tough talk. Ignoring the facts even when they come from his own administration. It seems that people only tell the truth about this president when they've got one foot out the door.

Here's the latest example. Congresswoman Mia Love, a member of the president's own party. She conceded today to Democrat Ben McAdams in their Utah congressional race and slammed the president for saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Mia Love gave me no love, and she lost. Too bad. Sorry about that, Mia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The congresswoman took a big gulp of truth serum and said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIA LOVE, (R) UTAH: This gave me a clear vision of his world as it is. No real relationships. Just convenient transactions. That is an insufficient way to implement sincere service and policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And there is another inconvenient fact facing this president. Six in 10 Americans disapprove of the job Donald Trump is doing as president according to a Gallup poll out today. Just 38 percent approve. But it's unlikely the president will get the message because listen to what he said in response to that classic Thanksgiving Day question, one any child can answer. What are you thankful for?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you thankful for, Mr. President?

TRUMP: For having a great family and for having made a tremendous difference in this country. I've made a tremendous difference in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Thankful for himself. Kind of says it all, doesn't it?

Our breaking news tonight. Robert Mueller says Paul Manafort has been lying to him and to the FBI. What happens now in this investigation? There's lots to talk about. Carl Bernstein is here. Evan Perez and Laura Coates.

[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news tonight in the Russia investigation. In a court filing, the Special Counsel Robert Mueller says that former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort has lied repeatedly to investigators. Manafort pleaded guilty on two counts and agreed to cooperate with the special counsel just two months ago.

Let's discuss now. Carl Bernstein is here, Evan Perez and Laura Coates. Good evening to all of you. Thank you for coming on tonight. What's in this court filing by Mueller, Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, this court filing indicates that the deal is off according to the special counsel. I'll read you just a little piece of what they said in this court filing. It says, quote, "After signing the plea agreement, Manafort committed federal crimes by lying to the FBI and to the special counsel's office on a variety of subject matters, which constitute breaches of this agreement."

If you remember as part of that September plea agreement, Don, the special counsel had essentially said that they were willing to encourage a judge to show him some leniency. This is a man obviously who is approaching his 70s, and he's staring at a couple decades in prison.

So, this was not a small thing, and apparently according to the special counsel, he has blown this all up by lying repeatedly to the investigators over the period of nine times that we've seen him go in there, spending dozens of hours in interviews with the special counsel's office.

I should add that according to the court filing today, Manafort himself says that he's provided truthful information and that he doesn't agree that he breached this agreement with the special counsel.

LEMON: Laura, let's talk about that because as Evan just said, we know that Manafort met with prosecutors at least nine times since making a deal, a plea deal, with the special counsel. He spoke with him for hours. Is this a big blow to the Mueller investigation? How do you read this?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's a big blow to Manafort specifically. Remember, the only way that Mueller's team could actually know if someone was lying is if they had some other corroboration or other proof in some way, shape, or form.

Remember at all times during this investigation, it has been Mueller's team who has had the upper hand. It was Manafort who lost at trial. It was Manafort who pled guilty to the subsequent trial to be held later on in Washington, D.C. And it was him who was in a position at that point to need the federal government, through Mueller's team, to essentially tell the judge, look, please be lenient. He has cooperated. He has perhaps not shown remorse, but at least he is trying to abide by the law right now.

Now we have a pattern from Manafort. Not only did the first time -- remember, he was stepped back and put into jail after he was a free man in the Virginia trial because he was trying to tamper with witnesses. Now again while he is out on -- not release, but while he is waiting for his final sentencing, yet again we're finding that he is now committing violations of the law again.

And let's be very clear. He also, according to his -- according to the attorney of Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Manafort and Trump have a joint defense agreement where they're able to collaborate and talk and have the attorney-client privilege without having any consequence, being able to share what they know.

Well, if you're telling me that now Manafort has lied over a series of interactions with Mueller's team, what does that say about the president's own joint defense with Manafort? It is not boding well for Manafort. Mueller, I think, remains having the upper hand.

LEMON: Wow, nine times. Carl, let me bring you in here. Why would he keep lying to investigators after making a plea deal? Is this a play for a pardon?

[22:19:54] CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It could be. It could be. It could be that he just has no desire to divulge what he really knows, not just to get a pardon but because he believes that withholding evidence is consistent with his beliefs in Donald Trump and continuing a cover-up. That's possible.

I'm not saying we have that knowledge. Let me agree 100 percent with what Laura just said and add one thing, though. That Mueller could nonetheless be very disappointed in what Manafort did in that he might have been hoping for additional information beyond what he already knows from Manafort, and that wasn't forthcoming.

But what Laura is getting at and where I'm going at the same time is to Donald Trump and what we have seen of Donald Trump in the last three weeks since the midterm elections as his own new acting attorney general has been presumably providing him with information about this investigation, what I and other reporters know from people who are close to Trump, who have served him faithfully, have left the White House, from lawyers involved, and that is that they believe -- these people close to Trump in the past believe that Trump is acting as if he is cornered in a way that he's never been in his life.

And I think that perhaps is also, if I'm reading into what Laura said, is possible. But in the past, Donald Trump has always managed to buy his way out, sue his way out, go on television, on the Howard Stern show, get his way out. Go into bankruptcy, get his way out.

LEMON: This is a different--

BERNSTEIN: This is different according to these people. If you do the reporting, I think what you're starting to see is a belief that he is not only cornered, but that national security is in real danger because of the way he is acting.

And you go back to my colleague, Bob Woodward's book. What is that book really about? It's about the fear of those around and closest to Trump that he is a danger to the national security. And now we see him cornered according to those people.

LEMON: Well, let's -- let me, Laura, let me bring you in on that because you said that this maybe this may show you something about how much information, how much that Mueller already knows at this point. I'll give you the very same thing. Considering, you know, the relationship between the two men, maybe Trump is saying, no, they weren't that close. We know that he worked for the campaign for a very critical time. Do you think this is a play for a pardon?

COATES: I think it is. And here's why. When you have somebody like Manafort who is now playing to essentially the paranoia that President Trump has through his counsel. He's expressed it, the idea of there being a perjury trap. I don't want to speak with Mueller's team because I think there may be an instance, there be a perjury trap. He may somehow cajole me or somehow influence me to say something that is inaccurate that I truly believe is truthful.

And so, in many ways, he may -- Manafort and his team may be saying, look, I think what I told you is absolutely truthful. I have no ill intent on being a cooperator. I've seen a plea agreement. I know full well that the only way the government is going to dismiss the remaking charges in that outstanding trial which I pled guilty to and the one that led to the hung trial, hung jury, is if I actually am a successful cooperator.

What possible incentive could I have, if you're Manafort, to say that I'm going to lie to Mueller? Now, this plays into Donald Trump's hands to say, see, this is precisely why I don't want to meet with Mueller and his team because whatever you say may not be used against you in a court of law, but it will be used to talk about what other witnesses may have said, and they will pit my credibility against theirs and I will lose.

So, I think in some ways, perhaps, it may be a strategic move for Manafort to say, look, this is exactly what you fear, and now it's happening to me.

And, remember, after Paul Manafort was found guilty, the president called him an outstanding person, almost the person who is being treated as if he was -- I think it was Al Capone was the way he used it. He has probably tried to shore up that sentiment again. So I wouldn't pass to think this as a strategic play for a pardon.

LEMON: All right.

COATES: But it doesn't help him if there's a state charge.

LEMON: All right. So, Evan, what exactly might he be lying about, and is he still a useful witness? We'll get that on the other side of the break.

[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now with Carl, Evan, and Laura here. So, here's the question, Evan, that I wanted to ask you. Is he still a useful witness? First of all, we don't know exactly what he lied about, right? We just know that according to the reporting, it's been at least nine times. That's why they said the deal is off. But we don't know what he lied about. So, does that still make him useful?

PEREZ: We don't know what he lied about. Look, I think the fact that he's met with the prosecutors at least nine times tells us that he's told them something. And I think that is potentially useful to the special counsel.

What we don't know is exactly what the special counsel says he's been lying about. But we do know one thing. We know that his right-hand man, Rick Gates, has been a very, very valuable cooperator for the special counsel. They said this repeatedly in court. And so that might give us a window into perhaps why the special counsel has information that they believe shows that Manafort isn't telling the truth.

They also, by the way, have information from intelligence that they've never shared publicly, that may also be able to show them that Manafort wasn't telling the truth in whatever he was saying.

So, there's a lot of information that the special counsel has, Don, that we've never known and that we were expecting that was going to come in a report at some point. And so, we shall see what this is all about when that report comes, or perhaps, you know, when they explain Manafort's alleged lies in this upcoming court filing.

LEMON: OK. So then, Carl, why, unless you're trying to protect someone who is really or something that's really important, why would you take such a big risk because he doesn't know for sure if the president will pardon him or not, and you know, why--

BERNSTEIN: Look, he's in a terrible situation no matter how you look at it. He's facing the rest of his life in jail--

LEMON: Right.

BERNSTEIN: -- no matter what happens, regardless of what he says about the president in the instant case, which is about his conduct, financial conduct, hiding money, laundering money, et cetera, et cetera. Let's try one other aspect of this, and Rick Gates figures in this.

Rick Gates, after he left the campaign, continued to work in the transition.

[22:30:02] And Manafort, of course, had left the campaign. But nonetheless, I have been told for a while now that the FBI, among things they've been trying to learn from others, is what Manafort might have done after the campaign as well. And that Gates would certainly have some knowledge about what that might have been and how that might figure in this picture as well.

We're not just necessarily talking about the time when Donald Trump says that, oh, I hardly knew him. He was only in my campaign for the few weeks that he ran it. And we won the nomination and then he left and never to be heard from again. I am not so sure that he is definitely never to be heard from again in this investigation.

But let's keep coming back to Donald Trump's behavior in the last three weeks, and what we have seen that has driven him to act even for Donald Trump in a way that has those around him, who know him best, Republicans on the Hill, former associates saying, look, this is adding up to something of the President, acting in such a way as even we have never seen him. We don't understand it.

LEMON: Yeah.

BERNSTEIN: He's acting in such a way as his back is to the wall. And nobody knows what he's going to do. And he's not sharing information with anybody, including his lawyers.

LEMON: OK. So actions, that's one thing, Laura. You know we -- you mentioned Rick Gates, Evan. But what if they have intelligence, though, from Michael Cohen, who has been called the most dangerous person for the President of the United States?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you can really contrast what's happening with Paul Manafort to what's happening with Michael Cohen, to what's happening with Michael Flynn, another Michael people often forget. People have made much ado about the length of this investigation, their impatience with Robert Mueller, with not coming up with his report.

But now, we also see that not only does Mueller have that zero tolerance for anyone lying, which shows that he must have some support to be able to understand that you are lying, something to compare or contrast to of somebody he does find credible. But look at this case. Unlike Michael Flynn, who still has a carrot dangling in front of him to be a cooperator, unlike Michael Cohen who still has yet to be sentenced, although he was handled in the district of New York, instead of actually with Mueller's team, has yet to be sentenced.

You've got a carrot dangling in front of him. And now you have Mueller done with Paul Manafort, wants him to be sentenced right away. He can put a fork in it. In his mind, he's done at this point in time. And you think to yourself, what is the difference here? That says to me that there is some acceleration, and the end game is near for Mueller's team.

And also remember, Mueller can't do anything without the permission of whom, Matthew Whitaker.

BERNSTEIN: That's right.

COATES: And so it shows you as well that perhaps Whitaker is not somehow trying to undermine the ability of Mueller to go for the entirety of the case. Maybe in this select instance, maybe it's because it's different than Donald Trump, but you at least see that there's not a roadblock being put into place to have this person sentenced. That may bode well generally for the rest of the Mueller probe.

But either way, we certainly see that when Mueller is done, he's ready to go to sentencing. And that's not the case, ironically, for Michael Flynn or for Michael Cohen.

LEMON: Thank you, all. Fascinating, we will continue to report. Appreciate it. Once again, the President is refusing to accept facts provided by his own administration. We're going to talk about why he's denying climate change even exists, despite his own experts saying it does. And the bigger picture behind his rejection of the facts.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:35:00] LEMON: President Trump dismissing his own administration's report on the dire consequences of climate change, saying he just doesn't believe it. And that fits a pattern that this President ignores information he doesn't like. Tonight, he falsely claimed that three border patrol agents were very badly hurt in a clash with migrants, even though his own customs and border protection agency says none of the agents suffered serious injuries.

So last week, he dismissed the CIA's assessment that Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman ordered the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. He also blamed California's deadly and devastating wildfires on poor forest management, completely ignoring the years- long drought in that state. Scientists say Trump's forest management comment is wrong.

So let's discuss. "The New York Times Columnist," Frank Bruni, Michael D'Antonio, the Author of "The Truth About the Trump," and Rick Wilson, the Author of "Everything Trump Touches Dies." My, gosh, how many of these do we have to debunk or re-bunk or whatever it is you want to call it. Good evening, everyone. Good to see you.

So, Frank, climate science to foreign policy, why does he continue to deny facts, and not only deny the facts, but facts from his own experts, his own administration?

FRANK BRUNI, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, he denies those facts that are inconvenient to him. So climate science is a really good example of that. If he accepted that, if he believed in reality as the rest of us do, he would have to formulate and follow government policies that addressed it. That's difficult. That's the kind of work he doesn't want to do.

He would have to challenge people in the party, the Republican Party, where he's made his home. He doesn't want to do that. He does what's convenient to him and what makes his path easiest. If that means believing in lies or spreading lies, he does that. No problem. It's all about what works for Donald Trump, not what works for the rest of us, not what works for the country, what's good for him.

LEMON: Rick, inconvenient facts, right? But there are consequences for inconvenient facts. So let's talk, maybe politically inconvenient to ignore 13 federal agencies or convenient to ignore 13 federal agencies, 300 climate scientists. Dismissing the CIA's report on what happened with Khashoggi.

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Of course.

[22:40:02] LEMON: These are real-life consequences.

WILSON: Donald Trump wants to live in a reality TV bubble where he creates the facts, where he creates the political climate, and all of these things -- his entire administration, he has stumbled from one of these elaborate sets of lies to the next.

And he wants to deny every bit of evidence, because it always ends up making him look like he's not competent to be President or he's not paying attention to the facts, or he doesn't believe in science, or he doesn't believe in his intelligence agencies, or anything that would compromise the sort of public image he wants to craft gets thrown out the window.

LEMON: Do you think he doesn't believe it, or do you think it's just politically convenient?

WILSON: I think there's a combination of them. I think with the intelligence agencies in particular, he wants to raise as much doubt about them as possible, because they've got his number. And they know what he's done. And I think with -- I think with the climate scientists' thing, that's part of his economic nationalism, where he wants to bring back the coal mines and bring back the ironworks and the steel mills and all that stuff.

LEMON: This is not 1960.

WILSON: No. He's really more an 1860 kind of...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I am just saying that it's just mind-boggling to me when people -- even people who work in farming, when they don't believe in science. Like, you know, if you crop something long enough, right, the nutrients and all, that's science. People go to the doctor and they get medications. That's science. You will believe in one science, but you won't believe in the other. You have to ask yourself why.

The reason I ask that question is, you know, there's a method to my madness, because it's not just about inconvenient facts, right? He makes up things, conspiracy theories.

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Mm-hmm.

LEMON: Like birtherism, right?

D'ANTONIO: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Which is much more dangerous in some ways.

D'ANTONIO: Now you're getting to the essence of who Donald Trump is. At heart, he is a conman. He's a guy who has built a few buildings.

LEMON: Are you reading my mind?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Someone said to me today if you don't recognize that Donald Trump is a conman, then you're the mark.

D'ANTONIO: Oh, well, now the world is his mark. Now see, the thing that's difficult for all of us is that all the billions of people on the planet have their own reality. Every person really does have the reality inside their head. Donald Trump's reality has ended up with him being President. I am the President. You're not. You're not. You're not. So who is right?

You know it's very hard to challenge a guy who has conned now Planet Earth. The problem is that planet...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Not all of Planet Earth.

D'ANTONIO: Hangs in the balance.

WILSON: Not the people at this table.

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: A small but fierce minority.

LEMON: A percentage of the American electorate.

(CROSSTALK)

D'ANTONIO: This is the really disturbing thing is for us, we pray for a reality-based chief executive. We pray for science to come to the fore in policymaking where the future of the planet is at stake. He's not invested in any of that. He's invested in what's inside here.

BRUNI: I think there's something also bigger going on here. I think if he plays in the world of facts, in the world of facts, in the world of truth, the spoils go to the worthy. In the world of spin, the spoils go to the most shameless. And no one will ever take that crown away from him.

LEMON: Right.

D'ANTONIO: He's really good at this. This is the thing that's confounding to people who want to deal with facts, who imagine learning something. Donald Trump doesn't imagine learning something. He imagines persuading everyone else of what he wants to be true. That's the point Rick was making.

LEMON: But can he persuade the Mueller folks of what his own truth is?

WILSON: Good luck with that, Don. I mean I think what we saw tonight with the Manafort -- the plea arrangement being pulled out is these guys know what -- they have Donald Trump's number. They know what he's done. They've got a very clear path now to making this a public report. And I think that convincing them by his hand scribbled answers that he claims he wrote himself.

I pray he wrote them himself, because we may get to see Donald Trump's, you know, orange skin match an orange jumpsuit if he wrote them himself. It's going to be fabulous.

BRUNI: There are a lot of exclamation points if he wrote them himself.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And unusual capitalization.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: There's a lot to be thankful for over this holiday season. And we'll talk about that, especially what the President is thankful for. And there's no one better than you to analyze this.

BRUNI: OK.

LEMON: When we come back. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:45:00] LEMON: We're back now with Frank Bruni, Michael D'Antonio, and Rick Wilson. So I just want to play this again, because I played it a little bit earlier. Michael, this is the perfect -- you're the perfect person to talk about what the President says he's thankful for. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you most thankful for, Mr. President?

PRES. DONALD TRUMP (R), UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: For having a great family and for having made a tremendous difference in this country. I have made a tremendous difference in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's thankful for himself.

D'ANTONIO: Listen. First of all, I want to tell you I am thankful for what I have done for your show. And I am grateful that you gave me the opportunity because it's been wonderful for you. All right, this is really crazy.

WILSON: That was a great Trump impression.

LEMON: That was pretty solid, Michael. That sounded like my text from Chris Cuomo, though, on Thanksgiving. But go on.

D'ANTONIO: I am sure.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It was a little bit like that.

D'ANTONIO: Let's not say that.

LEMON: Go on.

WILSON: You could be President.

[22:49:52] D'ANTONIO: This is a man whose frame of reference is me, myself, and I, and it never is anything but that. And I am not sure that he can frame things differently. He's not aware of where the rest of the country is. You know this debacle with GM, he's telling them, well, just open up more plants and make more cars. It doesn't matter to him what anyone else is concerned about.

LEMON: She'd better open up more plants. I heard that today, OK.

D'ANTONIO: They need to make some more cars. And then sell some more. It's as easy as that.

BRUNI: If he were running it that would happen tomorrow, because he knows more about cars than anybody in America.

LEMON: We'll have a good climate and safe forests.

D'ANTONIO: I just recall the first three-card Monte game I ever saw as a kid from New Hampshire was on the sidewalk in front of Trump Tower. And I wonder who was running the game. I don't remember who was running the game.

LEMON: I want you guys to watch this, because this is just a few examples of what President Trump says he knows better than anybody else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: If you look at the trade deals, and nobody knows it better than me. Nobody knows more about construction than I do. Nobody knows the politicians better than I do. Believe me. Nobody knows more about environmental impact statements than me. So a general gets on, sent obviously by Obama, and he said Mr. Trump doesn't understand.

He knows nothing about defense. I know more about offense and defense than they will ever understand. Believe me. I know more about ISIS than the generals do. Believe me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's a stable genius, remember, when he said that. I mean does he ever listen to that -- to anyone else?

BRUNI: Well, he knows more about narcissism than anybody else. I'll grant him that one easily. But no, I mean this goes on and on. And he -- you get the sense when he says it that he believes it. But it's also -- it's coupled with these moments of incoherence. I don't know if you remember the 60 Minutes interview. I think it was -- no, I am sorry. It was an Associated Press interview.

He was talking about how he knows climate science so well. And he gave the example of having an uncle who was a professor at MIT. Now, he didn't say he ever spoke with the uncle. The uncle had nothing to do with climate science. But by some vague relationship with those genes, he was now a climate science genius, right?

WILSON: He's been talking about that uncle for 30 years.

BRUNI: That uncle's very useful.

(CROSSTALK)

BRUNI: Nobody knows uncles better than Donald Trump.

(CROSSTALK)

D'ANTONIO: And MIT, which means that Donald Trump...

(CROSSTALK)

D'ANTONIO: I almost went to MIT. I think he went to MIT. He taught there, didn't he?

LEMON: Yeah.

D'ANTONIO: It's absurd. It's crazy.

WILSON: This ludicrous self-regard that he has to do it, though. He's obligated to maintain whatever weird ego construct he has inside of his head all the time. And the lies have to pile up more and more on each other. I know more about string theory than anyone. I built the Mars Lander. I mean Donald Trump -- he's President Von Munchausen of these ludicrous fairy tales that he writes on the fly.

LEMON: But this goes back to what you were saying. You said in -- I don't know reality that he was -- what was your analogy again?

BRUNI: Well, I was just saying if he divorces himself from the world of facts and truth entirely, right? Then he's not going to be judged by worthiness or by what he's actually done. He's going to be judged by what he can sell. And that brings in the shamelessness.

LEMON: I want to get this in, because I think it's important. There's also 6 in 10 Americans now disapprove of Trump. That's according to the latest Gallup poll. That's up 10 points from a little over a month ago. What do you think that -- what can we attribute that uptick to, I mean?

WILSON: Look. He's a guy who has run an incredibly divisive administration. He's a failed President on almost every single axis. Almost none of the things he promised would occur have occurred. He doesn't have his wall. The tax bill's gone over like a wet diaper. See? I almost went too far. But Trump's administration basically is comprised of executive orders and bluster.

So Americans are basically calling his BS, finally. They're saying no, look, the guy's not competent to hold the office. The -- by large majorities, Americans think he's a lying liar...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You said that in the midterms. House Republicans didn't do well in large part because of him.

WILSON: Trump decided to nationalize the election. And there are 40 fewer Republicans there because Trump nationalized the election. Democrats will crawl over broken glass to vote against his candidates. And there are 40 less of them now.

D'ANTONIO: Well, he also promised jobs to communities that aren't getting jobs. He promised a tax cut to people who aren't getting a tax cut. He promised to address the opioid crisis, and people are still dying in great numbers.

LEMON: You think all that's come to fruition now they're starting to realize since the last poll was taken?

D'ANTONIO: I think people feel this. They feel it organically. And it's the same folks who felt something resonant when he won. So there is a whole population that is not watching the news every night, but they're responding to their own lives. And their own lives were very hard, and he appealed to them and got elected. Their lives are still very hard.

[22:54:56] LEMON: It's interesting. Usually -- I am going to sound Donald Trump. But my gut is pretty good here. Just as it was about the election, I was one of the first people that said you should take him seriously. He could actually win. Do you guys remember that?

D'ANTONIO: Yeah.

LEMON: So listen, I think my gut is pretty good. I do get the sense that what Michael just said is right, that there is this shift that's going on that's out there. And number two, quite frankly, over the holidays I watched -- it was interesting, because I usually don't watch when I am not working because I want to, you know, relax.

I watched. There was less Trump. CNN was much more palatable without so many Trump stories.

BRUNI: You were happier.

LEMON: But I get the sense that there is...

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: Trump fatigue?

LEMON: There's Trump fatigue out there.

BRUNI: No. I agree with you 100 percent. But I think it is Trump exhaustion. I really think at this point. Overarching everything you said, which is 100 percent true. I think Americans are exhausted. They're exhausted with the endless melodrama. They're tired of hearing his name. They're tired of seeing him saturate American life in the way he insists on doing. And I think you may simply have a President here who's overstayed his welcome.

D'ANTONIO: This is what he did to his parents and it's why he wound up at military school. He wore them out. This is absolutely true. They were exhausted by the time he was 13. Get out of here.

BRUNI: A little Trump goes a long way.

LEMON: Did you guys have a good break?

D'ANTONIO: Terrific.

LEMON: Good to be back. Good to see you. I am glad you had a good break. Thank you very much. Robert Mueller says Paul Manafort has violated his plea deal by lying to them and to the FBI, which could be a really big deal for the investigation. Stick around for the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)