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Don Lemon Tonight
At Funeral of George H.W. Bush, President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump Joined a Rare Gathering of Past Presidents and Their Spouses, Nearly All of Whom Trump Has Publicly Insulted and Criticized; Cohen and Manafort's Fate Still Hanging; President Trump Siding With the Crown Prince. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 05, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And just the entire family is just really classy.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Yes. They've accomplished a lot. Huge clan. I watched them come in. They just kept coming in waves today.
LEMON: Did you see all the cars and buses for the entire family?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: They were getting on Air Force One. I was like how many people are going to get on Air Force One? My God.
CUOMO: Be fruitful and multiple.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: The Bushes took that very literally. And I got to tell you, you know, again, you and I have been through hard times. You know, we know what loss is about. I am so proud of my family. As you know, my brother is my hero. He's my best friend. It used to be me, him and pop as the men in the family always against the superior minds of mentalities of the women in my family.
I was never more proud of my brother that he was when he eulogized my father because I knew how hard it was for him to give a message to everybody else who was there, to give meaning to my father's life while holding in reserve the pain of his own loss. And I saw that in the president today, and I got a lot of respect for what he did, and he did beautifully.
LEMON: He did. It was amazing. So can we talk about -- I don't know who's in your control room or my control room. But if we have--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Yours. It's your show, brother.
LEMON: We've got the picture -- of. So, we got -- we got the picture of the presidents, and I got to tell you. I'm just being honest. The Obamas are really classy folks because I don't know if I could be so -- if we can put that up.
CUOMO: It's hard for them to not want to look at us the whole time.
LEMON: It's hard for them -- no, no, no.
CUOMO: So, the Obamas, what did you see that you want people to be reminded of?
LEMON: I'm going to say that I don't think I would shake hands with him. I don't know. I would just -- nope, couldn't do it. I'm not that big a person. I would hope that I would be, but I don't -- I can't fake the funk as they say. I'm not saying the Obamas did that, but there they go, right there.
CUOMO: I don't think it's about faking the funk.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I think it's about showing respect for something bigger than them.
LEMON: Why would they do it when he doesn't? But I understand what you're saying.
CUOMO: Come on. That's not the measure.
LEMON: No, that's not. But they -- they -- they can show -- what are you talking about, Chris? They showed respect for the office--
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: -- the way they conducted themselves in office.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: No scandal.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: There was no trash. There was no affair.
CUOMO: Amen.
LEMON: They showed the ultimate respect for the office. They do not have to show respect for someone who does not respect them, someone who tweets out pictures of them behind bars of the president. You don't have to show respect for that kind of person. Here -- let me show you what I would have done.
CUOMO: You don't have to.
LEMON: Let me show you. I want to show something.
CUOMO: You don't have to.
LEMON: OK. Come here. Come here, Don. CUOMO: Poor Don. You're petty and small.
LEMON: I'm not petty and small. That's real, brother. That's real. And it shows you--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Real petty and small.
LEMON: -- this is not - nope, it's not. This is not about ideology. This is about the way someone conducts themselves. If you constantly called me names and you were rude to me and you -- why should I have to show you respect at all? You are not showing me--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I'm sending you a poem.
LEMON: You're not showing me a respect.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I'm going to recite a poem to you.
LEMON: I'm talking about reality.
CUOMO: Yes, I know. But you know what. Poetry is reality. You know, there's a beauty to life that sometimes transcends what's obvious and angry in the moment. And what you saw with the Obamas--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: The Obamas are beautiful people.
CUOMO: And they showed that today because Donald Trump--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yes, they did.
CUOMO: Donald Trump cast them out. He said they were last than.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He threw aspersions on Obama that were completely calculated to dehumanize him, to play to bigotries. And that's the truth. That's what the birther movement was about. That's all it was about. That's what it was always about.
LEMON: And you want me to shake your hand?
CUOMO: They showed that love and their decency and respect wins.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And they brought him in even though he tried to keep them out. And that is the greatness of a man--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's why he's president and I'm not. Just call me petty McPetty (Ph) because I would not have -- and I wouldn't care what the world said if they asked me about it.
CUOMO: You are not taking the rose by the thorns.
LEMON: I'm not. Again, I do have to -- they're a lot classier than I am. I'm just saying I wouldn't. I'm just real. I tell you how it is.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I think the instruction is that--
LEMON: I'll smile at you, but I don't have to.
CUOMO: yes. But it doesn't mean you're always right, or neither am I.
LEMON: I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just telling you that--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: That's why I'll tell you what the president did that he should have done. He shook Obama's hand. Look, President George w. Bush, again, we've lived these kinds of moments. He is in pain, man. The man who meant the most to him in his life is gone, and we heard from George H.W. Bush that he would have voted for Clinton, or he did vote for Clinton, and they were angry about what this president said about their family, and they are all about family, OK, in a way that I don't think this president could understand.
But what did George 43 do? Out of deference to his father, he went in there. It wasn't a long shake. It wasn't a bro hug.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: There was no word exchange. Shook his hand, moved on, shook his wife's hand, and then brought the love for the Obamas and the Clintons even though they're not on the political same side. What is that? It was about humanity over party.
The president should have done the same. He snubbed the Clintons. You could say, well, the Clintons were snubbing him. Somebody's got to be bigger, especially in the president.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: If I didn't like someone that much and I talked as much smack, I would not show up at their funeral, OK? That's reality. Do people you hate -- you don't like in real life, who are not in political office -- do you show up at your enemy's funeral, Chris?
[22:05:07] CUOMO: Key caveat. Probably I'm not invited. I don't get invited to a lot of things. LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: I'm not like you will hail fellow will met. But what I'm saying it's about respecting the presidency. George H.W. Bush was a president, and you can't be about your own petty grievances. You represent the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I think the point you were in office--
CUOMO: -- and you should wear that on your sleeve every day.
LEMON: -- is an office that you respect the person, living or dead. An office is not a human being. I don't think that's respect for the human being if you talk smack about them, if you say the nastiest things about them, if you treat them as subhuman, and then you want to show up at their funeral. Really? Hell to the no.
CUOMO: I'll tell you what I would give you. I'm not giving it to you with respect to the Bushes, I'm not going to give it to you. But I'll give you this. And maybe this is something again where I don't have the same depth of feel and insight that you do.
The kind of ugly stuff that the current president perpetrated against Obama was more than ugly political invective. That was race baiting, what he was doing with the birtherism.
LEMON: Go on. Keep making my point.
CUOMO: And maybe I am. Well, I'm not like you. I'm not one-sided in conversation.
LEMON: All right.
CUOMO: Maybe on that level I would certainly not judge, but I would understand the Obamas saying, look, I respect the presidency and all that, but this was outright racism that they were perpetrating on us and that Trump was only too happy to do it. He never owned it, he never dispelled it and I'm not giving in to that because it's so ugly, so pernicious. I would understand that.
But I do believe as a general rule, we have to have expectations -- that's what the president's life was all about. That's the message of his virtue that we were trying to bring out, his family was trying to bring out, that you have to be bigger than what you receive in order to be the biggest person in the land as the highest elected official.
LEMON: Well, look, I got to go but let me just say this. I have respected the Bushes enough -- listen, they have a real relationship to the Obamas, the Clintons and the Bushes. That is a real--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Calls them brothers from another mother.
LEMON: OK. I respect them enough that I have to sit next to you, all right? I don't have to shake your hand.
CUOMO: That's true. But again, you keep saying, me, me, I, I. They are former presidents--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I'm talking about a lot of folks. I know a lot of people are going to agree with me. This is about humanity. It's not about an office. This is about human decency. Sometimes you have to teach people--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Just because they agree with you doesn't mean you're right.
LEMON: Wait a minute. It's right. I'm right. I got to go.
CUOMO: I'm not going.
LEMON: I'm just saying.
CUOMO: You don't have to go home, but you've got to get out of here.
CUOMO: But I can't stay here.
LEMON: Take him off the screen. Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Have a good night.
LEMON: All right. See you. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
And what a week it has been for President Trump, and it's only Wednesday. The president's inner circle bracing for what comes next in the wake of Robert Mueller's sentencing memo for Michael Flynn.
But the fact is prosecutors don't take jail time off the table for nothing. So, Mueller's recommendation of no prison sentence for Flynn, who has been interviewed 19 times by the way, tells you that he has been really, really valuable to the special counsel's investigation.
Has he given them a big fish? Potentially a member of the president's family? Well, we don't know yet what's behind all of those redactions in the Flynn filing. But the top Democrat on the Senate intel committee, Senator Mark Warner says that they want to talk to Flynn.
And don't forget -- I'm sure the president hasn't -- Mueller is expected to file a sentencing memo for Paul Manafort on Friday, one that's expected to lay out the lies Manafort told to Mueller's team and to the FBI.
But that's not all. It looks like palling around with the Saudis and taking the word of the crown prince over his own CIA, blowing up in this president's face.
A group of senators, Democrats and Republicans, introducing a resolution tonight blaming Mohammed bin Salman for the brutal murder of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi. Republican Senator Bob Corker telling our Manu Raju this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BOB CORKER, (R) TENNESSEE: Somebody came up today and corrected me on my comments yesterday when I said if it went before a jury, he'd be found guilty in 30 minutes. One of my colleagues came up and said, no, no, no, 20.
I think each day that goes by, it becomes much more difficult for anybody to in a straight-faced way even leave any room for questioning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, even the president's own party not buying his, maybe he did, make he didn't defense of Mohammed bin Salman. And I remind you the president himself has told us why he is taking the Saudi side. It's all about the money.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do people really want me to give up hundreds of thousands of jobs? And frankly, if we went by this standard, we wouldn't be able to have anybody as an ally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:01] LEMON: Remember when the president said digging into his businesses would cross a red line? Well, he can't be happy about this. The D.C. attorney general's office says 13 business entities within the Trump organization have been served subpoenas, served subpoenas in a suit that claims Trump is in violation of the Constitution's ban on government officials accepting payments from foreign governments.
The A.G.'s want to see revenue statements. They want to see tax returns from those businesses. And we know how this president feels about tax returns.
All of this has President Trump came face to face today with all four of his living predecessors on live TV, in one awkward moment after another. In fact, you could call it the awkward presidents club. OK.
So, let's take a closer look now. President Trump arriving with the First Lady Melania Trump, and promptly handing off his overcoat to a military aide, his back turned, coincidentally or maybe not, while the first lady shakes hands with the Obamas and Bill Clinton and appears to wave to Hillary Clinton. OK?
He takes his seat and has what you'd have to call a frosty handshake with the former president, Barack Obama, the man he falsely claimed was not born in this country and with the former first lady, Michelle Obama, who you remember recently said she could never forgive him for spreading those birther rumors.
And it sure looks like he's ignoring the Clintons and Carters, doesn't it? But just think for a moment about that seating arrangement that you see right there, President Trump seated in the same row with the president he slammed with a racist conspiracy theory, the president he accused of being the worst abuser of women in the history of politics, the former first lady and secretary of state he said should be behind bars, and the president he called the second worst in history after President Obama.
It just doesn't get more awkward than that. I want you to contrast that with the scene as former President George W. Bush, as he warmly greeted all the presidents and all the first ladies.
And did you catch this moment? President Bush slipping a cough drop to Michelle Obama, who has called him her partner in crime, just the way he did at John McCain's funeral. President George W. Bush referring back to his eulogy to his father's famous phrase.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To us, his was the brightest of a thousand points of light.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You have got to wonder how that sounded to President Trump, who said this at a campaign rally over the summer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thousand points of light. I never quite got that one. What the hell is that? Has anyone ever figured that one out? And it was put out by a Republican.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, yes, it's been a couple of really bad days for President Trump, and tonight he may be bracing himself for what's next. So, let's talk about it tonight including why one of the biggest Trump defenders on Fox says he thinks the president's son, Don Junior, will be indicted.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Friday is expected to be another big day in the Russia investigation. The special counsel, Robert Mueller, set to file sentencing documents for President Trump's former lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen and for Paul Manafort, the president's former campaign chairman.
John Dean is here, who was the White House counsel for President Richard Nixon. We will discuss. John, good evening to you. We now have the highly redacted sentencing memo for Michael Flynn. But reading between the lines here, how bad does this look for President Trump and the folks closest to him?
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it looks very bad. I think the first signal between the lines is really stands out is his substantial cooperation, which has to cause a lot of heartburn in the White House. I think the fact that there are clearly three very live investigations
going on has got to also trouble them. The fact that Rudy Giuliani just dismisses it really surprises me. I think he's spinning it the wrong way, and he may be deluding his own client in doing so. So, Don, this is a very -- this is a very tough time for this White House.
LEMON: Why do you say that? Why is he -- how is he deluding his own client?
DEAN: Well, I think Mr. Trump clearly gets most of his information from both his staff and his lawyers from what they say on television. That seems to be where he pays most attention.
LEMON: But do you think, John, do you think Rudy Giuliani -- not that he's a real lawyer. I mean he hasn't practiced in a while. I don't know. Listen, I take that back. I don't know. But do you think he's a real lawyer for Trump in the sense that he is, you know, gaming things out in court and how to do it legally, or is he just sort of the P.R. lawyer that goes on television and tries to spread disinformation so that people won't believe it once the report comes out?
DEAN: I think it's the latter.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: I think his real lawyer has some limits, though, and that's Emmet Flood, who is the acting White House counsel, and he is a real lawyer. He has practiced and he's a good lawyer and a highly respected lawyer. And I think that--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: When Emmet Flood comes on television, then maybe you can take some of this a little bit more seriously than what Rudy Giuliani says.
DEAN: Yes.
LEMON: Go on, though. I'm sorry. I interrupted.
DEAN: But Emmet Flood probably will not come on television.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: Because most real lawyers don't go on television and argue their case on television. They do it in a courtroom or in a prosecutor's office.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: So, this is all show, and as I say, Trump may be deluding himself in the seriousness of the problems he's got.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: I think that clearly Flynn has delivered one or two very big defendants for the prosecutor. LEMON: Yes. I mean, they took jail time off the table. I mean that is
-- that's huge. So, listen.
[22:20:01] DEAN: That's huge.
LEMON: His filing is only part one. We're expecting the sentencing memos for Michael Cohen, Paul Manafort, as I said in the introduction, this week too. We could learn a lot more.
DEAN: I don't think that Paul Manafort is going to be happy with what he hears at all. I think that he's going to get the book thrown at him, if not more indictments with additional charges for his reneging on his agreement. Prosecutors do not like that.
And what he did is he pledged his word that he would honor and cooperate with the government, and he broke that word. And apparently, very conspicuously and repeatedly. As far as Cohen, I'm not sure that what's going to happen there. That's up in the southern district. He's been in front of two judges. They're going to consolidate it down to one sentencing judge.
The office is going to put a sentencing memo in, and I think he's given a lot of time. The unofficial reports are something like 70 hours. That's a lot of time also, like Flynn's 19 meetings.
LEMON: Goodness. Jeffrey Toobin made the point, John, earlier that cooperators are usually sentenced after the trial in which they testify. And he says one way to view this is if Flynn hasn't testified, because the person, he can testify against is someone who can't be tried. That would be the president. What do you think?
DEAN: Well, it's merely a matter of policy that the president can't be tried. So, they're treating this as a political trial or a potential impeachment. In actuality, a president can be indicted as sitting. This is just a policy decision the Justice Department's made.
It's not impossible for a special counsel like Mueller, if he really feels the crimes are egregious, that he could indeed indict the president and say why he's doing so, because he disagrees with the policy of the department. This is a serious crime. Let's say the president has committed treason. That's about as serious as you can get. And that takes more than an impeachment.
LEMON: Yes. And I should mention, though, that Flynn could have given sworn testimony to a grand jury, right?
DEAN: Absolutely.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: I'm confident he did.
LEMON: Yes. I want to ask you this because this is, you know -- this is the place that -- the network that carries water, right? A lot of folks. They're not all of them. There are some good journalist there -- that carries water for this president. Judge Andrew Napolitano who is a big time Trump defender on Fox News
was asked about possible indictments. He spoke to Dan Abrams. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: The president himself should be extremely uncomfortable about this, not for his son or son-in-law as much as for himself.
DAN ABRAMS, ABC NEWS HOST: Do you, so do you think that any of Trump's inner circle is now going to get indicted?
NAPOLITANO: Yes. I don't know who, but I do know that Donald Junior has told friends he expects to be indicted.
ABRAMS: Do you expect he'd be indicted?
NAPOLITANO: Yes.
ABRAMS: And what about Jared Kushner?
NAPOLITANO: I don't know about Jared Kushner. I think Jerry Corsi is going to be indicted. I don't know about Roger Stone. Of course, he's been advertising--
(CROSSTALK)
ABRAMS: Right. He's been basically begging for an indictment.
NAPOLITANO: Right, right.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON: Judge Napolitano, that's his own opinion, right? That's what he thinks. That's not CNN's reporting.
DEAN: That's his analysis. And he's very pro-Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But he thinks that Don Junior will be indicted. Do you agree with that?
DEAN: I think it's highly potential. He's probably been told by the prosecutors that he's a target. That means that there's -- unless you're going to cooperate, there's going to be an indictment very likely following. He's not been called in front of a grand jury. That's another sign that he's being treated at arm's length. So, he's got jeopardy. Kushner, I will be surprised if he's not indicted, Don. I think he's got problems.
LEMON: Why do you say that?
DEAN: Well, he's in the -- you know, particularly with the Flynn testimony, which clearly covers transition period, and that's where Jared Kushner was very active. He was talking to the Russians.
He was looking for back channels with the Russians. He was really all hands on at that point and playing way out of his league.
The cue to me of that was when he visited the White House with his father and asked how many of the people of the Obama staff would remain in the White House after the end of the presidency. I said this man doesn't have a clue what's going on because when one president leaves, everybody leaves, and they walk into a shell.
LEMON: Playing out of his league or playing out of their leagues. That could be the sort of unofficial motto of this administration.
[22:25:00] Thank you. I appreciate it, John Dean.
DEAN: Always a pleasure.
This is a section of the Flynn filing everyone is talking about, even part of the title is redacted. But what's there is intriguing. We're going to talk about what this criminal investigation could involve and how Flynn might have helped in it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The clock ticking down to Mueller's firing -- or filing, I should say, of sentencing memos for Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort later this week. His filing in the Michael Flynn case tells us a lot about the Russia investigation. But it's also left a lot of questions unanswered.
I Want to discuss now with Garrett Graff. Garrett is the author of "The Threat Matrix: Inside Robert Mueller's FBI and the War on Global Terror," and former federal prosecutor Laura Coates.
Good evening. So good to have both of you on.
Garrett, you first. You made a point in your latest piece for Wired that we already seen more than 300 pages from Mueller. In a sense that we're already seeing parts of the Mueller report and while we've learned a lot, there's even more that we don't know. All those redactions. So, what is it that we don't know? What could it be?
GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, so, this is one of the fascinating things about the Flynn filing. You know, a lot of people sort of thought that the Flynn filing was in some ways anti-climactic because we didn't learn that many new details.
Those redactions are fascinating. I think they show and they appear to show that this investigation might actually be going on sort of longer and bigger and larger than we have been anticipating.
[22:29:59] LEMON: You mean it wasn't -- it's not over on November of 2017 for Thanksgiving? It not the end then?
GRAFF: He's just barely missed the deadline of a year ago--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: A year ago.
GRAFF: -- over Thanksgiving. Yes.
LEMON: Because you remember Giuliani and other folks were saying this is wrapping up or whatever. But now -- when I read it, I said well, there are all of these redactions. This is, you know, very concise, and there are so much more out there. So that means this is just the beginning, not winding down. That's just my assessment. I think Garrett's as well.
A central mystery OK, Laura, section A in the Flynn filing where, you know, even part of this title was redacted. There it is. We showed it last night. All we have is the first line. The defendant has provided substantial assistance in a criminal investigation. That's it. The question is who is the focus of that criminal investigation?
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean it's an extreme cliffhanger. But it's one of the things that's really been a pattern in the Mueller probe so far. I mean he is not one to use a lot of words or to provide any information. But he is one to have this continued suspense. And one of the reasons why suspense is impactful for a prosecutor is for some of the reasons he outlined in the sentencing memorandum, which is listen.
The very first person to squeal got the best deal. The very first domino to fall encouraged other people to come forward, because there was such anxiety brewing around the area and around people who were involved in the transition team, the campaign, and the administration. And so this idea of while we're all wondering who is underneath those bars and what he's helped in, imagine the people who had direct contact with Michael Flynn, what they're wondering and whether or not they are now re-evaluating either for the first time or the 20th time what their role should be now going forward.
And it also tells me that, of course, we've got more than one investigation. And remember, Don, Mueller's mandate was to look at the collusion aspect of it. And anything he may have come across in the course of his investigation.
LEMON: Anything that arises, right.
COATES: Now we've got two other things he may be involved in as well. And Flynn, while he only served 23 days, is really central.
LEMON: Do you think Trump's attorneys know who the criminal investigation is -- who the person is or what it is?
COATES: I think they probably have some inkling, because they are aware of the people who were rubbing elbows with Michael Flynn and who was a part of the transition team. So you can really kind of safely assume that those people who were involved in terms of the ambassador, Sergey Kislyak, who gave everybody amnesia. And Mueller essentially said I don't buy this selective amnesia, anyone who had that particular thing. What he may exclude, however, and I think the memo goes to talk about
this, Don, is the idea that they are saying that Michael Flynn's own lies caused other officials to rely on those statements, perhaps those...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And to repeat them publicly.
COATES: Right, everyone else, not so much.
LEMON: Yeah. Garrett, I want to read this part, OK? It says the defendant assisted the SCO's investigation on a range of issues, including interactions between individuals in the Presidential transition team and Russia. So who are those individuals? Do they include the President, his family, or anyone else currently in the administration that might be in hot water?
GRAFF: Well, it certainly seems like they involve Jared Kushner. And that's pretty significant. And it goes back to sort of what John Dean and you were talking about in the last segment, which is many of the Michael Flynn questions end up being Jared Kushner questions. And that is bad news for him, and also potentially (Inaudible) separate from the bad news he might potentially face as part of the Trump Tower meeting in June 2016.
The central question about the conversations involving Michael Flynn and Sergey Kislyak come back to this question of sanctions in the Middle East. And Michael Flynn has previously said that he made those telephone calls, had those conversations at the direction of a senior transition official, who has been separately identified as Jared.
And that that -- if I were his lawyers tonight, I would be pretty worried about that broad but pretty specific phrasing in the Special Counsel's filing.
LEMON: Thank you, Garrett. Thank you, Laura. Appreciate it. At the funeral of George H.W. Bush, President Trump and First Lady Melania Trump joined a rare gathering of past Presidents and their spouses, nearly all of whom he has publicly insulted and criticized.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:00] LEMON: So a pretty rare moment in American history today. A meeting of the Presidents club, all the living Presidents and their spouses gathering to remember one of their own, the late President George H.W. Bush. This is a group of people who have had deep political disagreements in the past, but they came together to celebrate an American hero and dedicated public servant.
But you've got to wonder if the mood changed when the current President took his seat with the others. I need you to take a look at this. It's Trump first interaction with President Obama since his inauguration, just one week after he re-tweeted a picture of Obama behind bars. His campaign rival, Hillary Clinton, not even a handshake. And compare that to when President George W. Bush came by to greet the former Presidents and first ladies.
Despite all that, it was a touching ceremony capped by a eulogy from President George W. Bush. It's not just one President paying tribute to another. It was also a son paying tribute to his father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:39:48] GEORGE W. BUSH (R), FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: To us, he was close to perfect but not totally perfect. His short game was lousy. He wasn't exactly Fred Astaire on the dance floor. The man couldn't stomach vegetables, especially broccoli. And by the way, he passed these genetic defects along to us. So through our tears, let us know the blessings of knowing and loving you, a great and noble man.
The best father a son or daughter could have. And in our grief, let us smile knowing that dad is hugging Robin and holding mom's hand again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mr. President, everyone was with you. You did a fantastic job. The most touching moment of all of this. So there's plenty to discuss. Michael D'Antonio, the author of "The Truth About Trump," and Douglas Brinkley. They're both here. I mean -- good evening, guys. That was just an amazing moment. When I saw that, I choked up at home watching this President.
So it is -- I think it is worth, Doug, looking at the change in demeanors when we talk about the former Presidents, among the former Presidents before the funeral started when -- once President Trump arrived, what did you think as you watched President Trump greet the ex-Presidents and the first ladies?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: I thought it was a little bit odd that everybody had to sit and wait while he did the grand entrance. It may have been smarter if he was there at the same time they were so they could have perhaps milled around, although maybe others didn't want to meet President Trump. I think Barack Obama was in the awkward position of sitting next to him, and he had to shake hands.
But I don't blame Hillary Clinton for staring straight ahead. I mean he's chanted lock her up, accused her of all of these crimes in a really brutal, misogynistic fashion. Like nothing we've ever seen in American politics of attacking somebody to the odious degree that Trump's done to Hillary Clinton. So she didn't have -- she wasn't in proximity. So she didn't have to give him any kind of handshake or nod of hello.
LEMON: Mm-hmm. Just quickly, two things if you can, because I want to get Michael in here. Do you think it was scripted that way to limit the time with Trump and the other Presidents?
BRINKLEY: I do. LEMON: OK. OK, so then what about the coat moment. And not to, you
know, to put too much, but it was just sort of odd. Is anyone telling this President, talking to him about protocol? Like they could have grabbed the coat back, you know, in the wings or the rafters or what have you. And then he could have walked up without the coat, instead of that odd moment where he takes his coat off like a mafia don or something.
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Usually at a funeral service, you want to be part of the congregation, part of the flock of sheep.
LEMON: Right.
D'ANTONIO: He wanted to be the wolf marching down the aisle. And that's what came across to me. But it went -- you know, as you said, my takeaway from today was George W. Bush's amazing job and that human touch of handing Michelle Obama a cough drop or a piece of candy. And the genial relationship the Obama's have adopted with George W. Bush is the kind of a -- was a healing moment in the day.
LEMON: Listen. This is -- I think many people were wondering what this moment would be like and they tuned in partly for that. And we have, you know, we have spent time honoring the former President a lot on this network and others. And I think it's important to talk about, to analyze what happened at today's memorial, at today's service.
Michael, what do you think it was like for President Trump to be in the presence of ex-Presidents, knowing that he has criticized all of them for political gain?
D'ANTONIO: Well, it was an incredibly awkward moment. And you almost see that in this very small club of Presidents, there's one who is a pariah. And that's a terrible thing for President Trump. But it's also a terrible thing for the country. So you have really just these five men who are part of this exclusive group. Obviously, the Obama's had discussed with each other what their response was going to be, and they were gracious.
I think, you know, that President Trump had an opportunity to actually work his way down that line and greet each person if he had the courage to do so.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
D'ANTONIO: But this is an uncharted territory for our nation. And we have -- in one sense, though. You saw the Bush family kind of reassert American values and to demonstrate this authenticity. The eulogy given by the second President Bush was so moving and so emotionally authentic that I do think it was a healing thing for everyone and a reminder that, you know, this is a big country.
We've got a big history. And we can all pull together in the same direction if we are willing to do so.
[22:45:01] LEMON: I want you to look at this, Douglas. This is the former First Lady, Michelle Obama, greeting President Trump. She wrote in her book that she'd never forgive him for spreading the birther conspiracy and endangering her family. It's obviously awkward for all of them.
BRINKLEY: That was extremely awkward for Michelle Obama. And she probably discussed it with Barack before that. Gosh, I hope I don't have to shake his hand. She has zero interest in Donald Trump. I read her memoir and reviewed it, Don, for the Boston Globe. And it's very stunning. Her language, she uses about Donald Trump. She makes it very clear never forgive him.
But in that moment, I think she felt because her husband and her, I am sure, discussed, we'd better shake his hand. We're going to be the front line. We're the blockade from what's down the road.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And they didn't want to distract, because everyone would be talking about, oh, did you see they didn't shake the hands...
(CROSSTALK)
BRINKLEY: Jimmy Carter has been dealing with serious cancer, brain cancer. You would think Donald Trump would want to take a moment and say, how are you doing to somebody like Jimmy Carter, who hasn't really warred with him a whole lot. But, alas, he doesn't have class. And the best we could have happen today was him kind of barrel in and barrel out.
LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, gentlemen, I appreciate it. We agree, President George W. Bush, amazing today. Thank you. Senate Republicans are outraged over the Khashoggi killing and looking to hold the Saudis responsible. But will the President get in the way?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:50:00] LEMON: So the President has sided with Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, refusing to blame them for the brutal killing of journalist and American resident Jamal Khashoggi. But now, new bipartisan legislation could force his hand on this issue. Let's dig deeper on this with Philip Mudd and Max Boot. Max, Mr. Boot is the Author of the Corrosion of Conservatism, Why I Left the Right.
And they're both here with me in New York. Good evening. Senators are angry. They're working on this bipartisan bill to punish the Crown Prince. People are asking if there's a White House cover-up. What's happening now with the White House and with Congress, Max, you first.
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I would say this White House has engineered more cover-ups than any administration in history and has done so ineptly. You see the ineptitude and trying to cover up the relationship with Russia. But you're also seeing the ineptitude in trying to cover up Saudi complicity in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. And that is now backfiring. It's blowing up in their faces, because of these bald-faced lies that
we don't know whether the Crown Prince was involved or sounds. It sounds like the intelligence community has the goods, presented the goods to the senators, and now they're mad. And they should be mad, not just at what the Crown Prince did, but the fact that Trump and Pompeo and Mattis seem to be covering up what the Crown Prince did.
LEMON: So Max, you think it's a cover-up. There's a cover-up going on.
BOOT: Oh, absolutely, yes.
LEMON: Do you think it's a cover-up going on?
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I -- let me make it -- I agree with -- I would never disagree with Max. He's the smartest guy in the room.
LEMON: Especially sitting next to you.
MUDD: But...
(CROSSTALK)
MUDD: Don't touch me again. Let me make this one percent more subtle. You're going into a murder trial. The defendant, the potential murderer and the defense, the defendant's attorney says the defendant never said he murdered John Doe. Meanwhile, the defendant's associates were around John Doe. He's got telephonic activity with the people who might have committed the murder. He's got a long history of animosity with the murderer.
My point is we go in every day to criminal trials and say the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt even if the murderer didn't admit conducting the murder, would you convict the person. You're not going to get an intelligence. The Crown Prince on the phone saying hey, go cut the guy up with a saw. So when the Secretary of Defense, the President, Secretary of State say we don't have a smoking gun, my answer is well no kidding.
You also don't that in a murder trial, but you have a lot of intelligence around that that says any reasonable person would say the Crown Prince was involved with this.
LEMON: Whatever the CIA Director told senators today incensed them even more. This is Bob Corker. This is what is Bob Corker said about Haspel's briefing just today. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BOB CORKER (R) TENNESSEE SENATOR: What I do know is that, you know, the CIA Director came in and with some analysts and gave the most precise presentation I've ever heard in 12 years. And I left there as I mentioned. Somebody came up today and corrected me on my comments yesterday when I said if you went before a jury. He would be found guilty in 30 minutes. One of my colleagues came up and said 20. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Why does the White House continue to stand by Saudi Arabia?
MUDD: They want to make a deal. Look at North Korea. North Korea has violated every agreement they've ever had. And the President said I am smarter than the last guy. We can cut a deal, really?
LEMON: But he said this is the most thorough report that he's -- that Haspel gave him a very thorough report.
MUDD: Well, she would. I now Gina personally, I worked with her when I was Deputy Director of Counterterrorism at CIA. See is serious as a heart attack. If you want to have whether the facts of the case, what's the speculation in the case, what you don't know about the case, Gina's going to walk in the room and say here's the deal. You don't have to like it.
The President doesn't have to like it. Here's the deal. I suspect that's why the senators are walking out so angry. If I know Gina, she walked in the room and said I don't do politics. Let me tell you about the intelligence, and the intelligence says the Crown Prince must have known about it.
[22:55:05] BOOT: And that's -- and I should stress that is to her credit, because I am sure there's a lot of pressure from the White House to gain the intelligence. And it looks like she's giving it to them straight.
LEMON: So then she's -- the White House won't like that then.
BOOT: No.
LEMON: And there's the same question, why does the White House continue to stand by Saudi Arabia if you have Haspel saying that. And Republican senators saying she gave us a very thorough report. One of them said I wouldn't indict them or whatever in 30 minutes. I would do it in 20.
BOOT: Yeah. Now, that's a great question, Don. I don't think we know the full answer to that. I mean look at what we learned last week from Michael Cohen about how Trump's policy towards Russia may have been compromised by the fact that he was seeking a business deal in Russia in 2016. We don't know the nature of his financial dealings with Saudi Arabia. I mean he's bragged about all the money he's made from Saudis in the past.
Is that influencing his decision or is it these weak arguments about how we desperately need the Saudis to buy $110 billion worth of arms, which they're never going to do. It's just a false ridiculous, fictitious figure. So I think there's a lot of room for the Democratic Congress to investigate what is really behind the Saudi policy.
LEMON: We're out of time. Thank you. And stop touching him, OK?
MUDD: I can't keep my hands off of him.
LEMON: Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
