Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Special Counsel, Former Trump Campaign Chairman Paul Manafort Told Multiple, Discernible Lies; Manafort, Cohen Filings Reveal How Much Mueller Knows About Workings Of Trump Team; Trump Falsely Tweets On Memos, Totally Clears The President, Thank You; Trump Will Nominate William Barr as Attorney General; Comey Exasperated After Closed-Door Interview on Capitol Hill; Mueller Investigators Questioned John Kelly on Obstruction Probe; Trump Falsely Tweets that Filings Clear Him of Wrongdoing; Rex Tillerson Came a Little Bit Closer to Saying What He Actually Thinks of President Trump; CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 07, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is "CNN Tonight." I'm Don Lemon. And what we've learned about the inner workings of the Mueller investigation has got to be sending shivers through the White House tonight. First the Special Counsel's office saying former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort lied about his contact with administration officials, among other things.

The sentencing memo says Manafort was in contact with Trump administration officials as late as February of this year. And Mueller's even got the texts to prove it. The second filing comes from the federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York, and it involves Trump's long-time lawyer Michael Cohen. They say, in reference to the schemes to pay hush money to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, "in particular as Cohen himself has now admitted with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual one." Individual one is President Trump.

So Michael Cohen acted at the direction of Donald Trump when he committed two election related crimes during the 2016 campaign. That is an incredibly damaging revelation. And the investigation not over yet. Let's discuss. Former Nixon White House Counsel John Dean and Max Boot, he is the author of "Corrosion of conservatism." Good evening. Here we go on a Friday night. John, and what a week, right? For the Russia investigation.

JOHN DEAN, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: Amazing.

LEMON: Give me your Friday night damage assessment.

DEAN: You know, I think Trump is a little bit like a man with a Twitter in his hand as the titanic is going down. He doesn't seem to get it yet.

LEMON: That simple? OK. Give me your assessment, what do you think? Give me your Friday night damage report. MAX BOOT, COUNCIL FOR FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, let me sum it up with

two words, Don. Holy cow. I mean, I can't believe this! This is not normal. We have the President of the United States being accused by his own Justice Department of being implicated in the commission of two felonies? I mean, this is -- this is off the charts. This is something we have not seen since the days of Nixon, right?

In a lot of ways, I think this is worse than Watergate, because this is actually stuff that potentially affected the outcome of the election. In fact the Southern District of New York was very eloquent in talking about in how the crime that Michael Cohen carried out to conceal these hush money payments to the porn actress and a playboy playmate went to the very heart of what our electoral system is all about, which is transparency.

They were denying voters the information they needed to make an informed decision, just as they when they lied about the fact that Trump was pursuing a project in Moscow, even as he was locking up the Republican nomination. He is now, I believe an illegitimate President whose very election victory is called into doubt.

LEMON: But Max, it seems there are even more connections between the Russians and the campaign and the administration than we were aware of, even just yesterday.

BOOT: Right, no, exactly. You had the extra meeting reveal in which I had been written about, but not in a major way in the fall of 2015, which is the earliest contact that we know of, between the Russian government and the Trump campaign offering, quote unquote, synergy.

And remember, on top of all this, there are all the lies, the lies from Donald Trump on down about all this happening. And there's all the compromising information, because we know the Russians knew about all this. So they had blackmail material on the man who is now the President of the United States. It doesn't get any more serious than this Don.

LEMON: OK. So let me ask you, John, so if you were in this White House, I know that you were involved in Watergate.

[23:05:02] If you were in this White House, right, and these reports came out to this week, let's just say this week and then you know these two, today -- on the two today, what would you be thinking?

DEAN: Well, of course, White House Counsel today represents the office of the President. And White House Counsel must see that a lot of damage is being done to that office. And we have a brand-new White House Counsel, who has very little Washington experience, this is all new to him. And I think it's a very difficult time to bring a rookie in, but that is what Trump has done and tends to do. So Don, can I adjust one other thing.

LEMON: Sure, go on.

DEAN: The tremendous difference -- the difference between the Southern District and the Special Counsel's treatment of Cohen caught my attention. Where the Southern District hammers him, says he is not really a reliable witness and was not forthcoming, there was no cooperation agreement whereas the Special Counsel said he was truthful and they really seemed to be setting him up as a potential witness.

Now I think what's going on there and has been forgotten in a lot of the commentary today is there's something called rule 35 in the federal rules of criminal procedure, got it right in my hand here. And what it says, is you can file within a year a motion for reduction of sentence. And that is what I think is going to happen in this instance. They are trying to, the Southern District is trying to squeeze Cohen a little bit more, get a little bit more out of him and I think they will. I think if he is consistent in his desire to help, I think he'll be more forthcoming even than he has so far.

LEMON: I've got another question for you, John. Because you mentioned the White House Counsel, the former White House Counsel, Don McGahn cooperated extensively with Mueller.

DEAN: He did.

LEMON: That is a role again that you had in the Nixon administration. How much of this information do you think could be coming from Don McGahn?

DEAN: I think a good bit and almost contemporaneous. I think he is probably going to be a potential witness in anything that has to do with obstruction of justice, because he was dealing with the Special Counsel as these things were unfolding. And he was doing it with the permission of the President's private counsel. So they knew he was over there. I, I think they may have misjudged. They said later they were surprised that he had spent as much time with the Special Counsel as he did, but I think he could be a very important witness and he managed to get through the rain drops without getting too badly splashed.

LEMON: Max, let's get to the bottom line here. The bottom line is that the current President of the United States has been implicated directly in two crimes.

BOOT: Yes.

LEMON: What impact does that have on the country?

BOOT: That is a great question, Don. I mean, what you see I think is a scandal that is engulfing the presidency of the United States. And you saw it even this morning at 6:00 a.m., the President was having one of his usual Twitter melt downs, because presumably he had an indication of what was coming.

LEMON: It's crazy.

BOOT: Yes. It's crazy. Can you imagine what we're going to see in the next couple of days, now that all this has come out? How does the President of the United States keep his focus on the people's business? I mean at the best of times, this President has a very short attention span. How does he focus on anything other than his own political survival at this point?

I mean, this is in fact one of the reasons why you have the impeachment clause in the constitution. If a President has been implicated in high crimes and misdemeanors and if he cannot carry out the duties of his office. That is why there's a mechanism for removing him. I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon, because he still has Republicans in his back pocket. But that is why you have to have that mechanism. Is this a President who is going to be capable for the next couple of years of discharging the duties of his office? I think that is a very difficult question that we need to ask ourselves right now.

LEMON: Speaking of these tweets, John, the President tweeted after the Cohen filing was released and saying, "Totally clears the President. Thank you." Listen, I know Rex Tillerson said he doesn't like to read, but that is not what I read. You?

DEAN: He doesn't like to write much either when he is got problems. He didn't want to address any of the reality of what he is confronted. He may not even be up on what he is dealing with here. You know, it is just a mystery, this man, who has his former Secretary of State said, how difficult it was working with a President who won't read his briefing papers, who has a very short attention span, who wants to do things his way whether they're legal or not. So this is what we're seeing. And he thinks his gut reaction to all this is the guiding light, and I just think he is getting himself in deeper and deeper.

[23:10:00] BOOT: And the more that he struggles against this, the more he implicates himself in obstruction of justice by dangling pardons by saying that Roger Stone and Manafort should not cooperate. All these things setting himself up for witness tampering. So, he is making his troubles worse the more that he lashes out here.

LEMON: Let me ask you, you said that you don't think that they'll do anything about it, because you said, your quote, he has Republicans in his back pocket. But does he think that if he muddies the waters enough, right, that some people might actually believe him, will actually and continue to believe him?

BOOT: They do believe him. I mean, if you look at the polling, Don, most Republicans believe Donald Trump and they believe his crazy smears against Robert Mueller.

LEMON: Do you think they believe or they want to believe? That is different.

BOOT: Well, I think they believe, because they want to believe and they can't imagine not believing, because it would cause a crisis of faith for them. But I think it was really significant today that so much of the information came out of the Southern District of New York involving the accusation that Donald Trump directed the commission of these felonies. That is not coming from Robert Mueller. I mean, Donald Trump has spent all this time smearing Robert Mueller. He hasn't bothered to smear the Southern District of New York. And so their credibility remains unimpeachable. I mean, I think Mueller's credibility is also unimpeachable, but Trump has certainly muddied the water with his own followers.

LEMON: John, based on the information that we received from Mueller, this week, do you think this investigation is anywhere near the end?

DEAN: I don't. I don't, because we know from the Flynn sentencing memo that he opened up several new avenues for them to look down and they're going that route. That is why they redacted so much of this. There was more redactions today. There were also vague paragraphs describing activities that were not redacted, but were -- you couldn't really tell what was going on. Whether you can get hints that there's much more investigation.

And Don, if he brings -- some of these people are going to be indicted and that will result in criminal trials, which will be even more protracted. I think we're going to see a couple more years of the Special Counsel in operation.

LEMON: Oh.

(LAUGHTER)

BARTIROMO: A lot more to talk about.

LEMON: Oh. No!

DEAN: Not going away.

LEMON: That is a good -- well, let's just say not a good way to end it, but let's just end it there. Thank you, gentlemen, have a good weekend with that note, with that said.

We learned today that Russia was trying to get to the Trump campaign as early as 2015. What does that mean for the investigation?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A huge day for the Russian investigation with major revelations and sentencing documents for former Trump fixer, Michael Cohen and former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort. Tonight, we know a lot more about what Mueller and his team are investigating. What they already know and just how close they are to the President himself.

Here to discuss Juliette Kayyem, Harry Litman, Chris Swecker. Good evening. You know -- Juliette, I'm going to start with you. You have a history of coming on this show. What you say turns out to be true in the future. What do you say about today?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: The cover-up is just background noise and it's the crime. And it's collusion. I think that there's no way to read the totality of what happened this week, because we can't forget Mike Flynn at the beginning of the week and what we sort of could gain from all that blacked out text to what happened today. I know the Southern District of New York case is important. I know it's scary to have a President as an unindicted co- conspirator in a case like that. It is not -- it is, it doesn't have the impact on our American democracy like the rest of the stuff related to the amount of time that was spent trying to have wheeling's and dealings with the Russians to have there, you know, to get them in the campaign early and how long those conversations went until earlier this year.

And so it's, you know, Mueller is not messing around. This is a collusion case. It's not a process case. This is not a lying to investigators case. There is substance there, and we have seen it this week.

LEMON: OK. Before I get to you, I'm going to ask everyone else. So then, this is what everyone at home is asking. So now what? Now what? What does all this mean? Now what?

KAYYEM: I mean, there's going to be both a legal process and a political process. The legal process will continue as it is. People are going to be sentenced. There are people who are referenced in these documents who ought to come clean. I said last time I was on air, everyone get a lawyer. I mean that even more today. There are further investigations related to this, whether it impacts the Russians or us. Then there's the political side which is, is this presidency sustainable? I mean, is it sustainable? Is it worth it? I often walk around saying, what's wrong with Mike Pence? I mean, I'm not a Republican, but you know, for Republicans, what's so wrong with Mike Pence? That is a political question. Who knows how that unfolds over time, but the legal process will continue as is.

LEMON: Harry, question, so now what? That is what everyone asked me today. All this stuff came out. Like -- OK, so what?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: I think Juliette is really right here to emphasize the sort of totality and the difference between the legal process and the political consequences. Just to review the bidding over maybe the last six weeks, as of six weeks ago, this was the all activity that was over in Russia and then Mueller began to lay down the case for there being people in the states who were involved.

Now, as of today, we are perilously close, probably there, to knowing that that the President himself is deeply involved. That is an incredibly both sobering and critical moment for the democracy.

[23:20:03] So it will play out on the legal side with Mueller continuing to go after the people in gradual steps that perhaps will point all the way to the President and then on the political side, whether there will be any resolve to actually take charge of the crisis where we are in and try to salvage or restore the kind of faith in the electoral system that today's events put in deep jeopardy.

LEMON: Chris, do you agree with that?

CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION: Yes, I mean, this is -- this is what a bare knuckle within the bounds of the law investigation looks like. They can't be done by paper chase alone, although there's going to be a lot of documents in these cases. And what I think is a follow-up indictment, but you have to have people inside who have the playbook. That is just the way it is with any conspiracy. So the ironic thing is that I think the person that had the most to

tell and had a deal said very little and the one that had no deal said a lot. So you know, it's going to be interesting to see how all this plays out.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: So Chris, Manafort lied to the Special Counsel's office on five major issues when he was supposed to be cooperating with them, right? But at the same time, Manafort testified twice before the grand jury just the last couple of weeks. How useful do you think is the testimony of a known liar?

SWECKER: Well, in both their cases, I don't think their testimony is going to be very useful, if they used either one of them at all, I'm pretty sure the Special Counsel has no interest in using Cohen. I think they had some interest in using Manafort until they realized that he was playing games with them, which happens a lot with cooperating defendants. And people who are involved these plea deals.

So I think that they're going to -- they already know a lot. I think they know more than of course, what Mueller is putting out. He doesn't leak. I don't think he necessarily needs either Manafort or Cohen, he can -- if he can prove Cohen is lying and Manafort's lying, then he can prove the activity that shows why they're lying. So he can prove the underlying activity. So I'm not sure that they're critical witnesses in either instance.

LEMON: Juliette, after everything that is happened, why would Manafort thinks that he could get away with lying to Robert Mueller?

KAYYEM: I think this group of people including the President lie so much and have lied so much, and view the legal process as not legitimate in a weird way.

LEMON: It is just who they are.

KAYYEM: Yes. It's just who they are. And I think most people can't believe it. In the filings today, at one stage they sort of showed that he -- you know, confronted with his lies, so then he lies again to sort of make the lie the original lie align with what he was caught with.

LEMON: You know what we call that? Lying about the lies that you lied about.

KAYYEM: It means you've lied so much. You cannot remember that you have lied, how you've lied to the special prosecutor. So I think you know, their motivation is not just simply self-preservation. It is there's no sense of duty by this group of people. And it's not just them, of course. It's the President who likes to be with people like this. This is -- their allegiances are not to anything greater than money and power and winning.

LEMON: So Harry, Mueller also says that Cohen provided useful information concerning certain discrete Russia related matters core to its investigation. What do you think that refers to?

LITMAN: Yes, I think that is it the second headline of the day and that refers to the Moscow project for starters. That is about 80 percent of it. And then perhaps some of the stray communications with Kushner early on to the Russian ambassador, but I think you know, the importance here there is on the one hand the series of legal maneuvers.

Do you exactly find that he is got the legal intent? And how do you put the circumstances together? But then there is just this political sense that Trump is completely involved and there is, to use your guess from last segment's words a cancer on the presidency. There's just you know, a deep sense of untoward conduct without regard to the particular mission of Mueller to stitch it all up in legal statutory terms.

LEMON: Chris, -- did you want to say something, Juliette?

KAYYEM: You know, I've been sort of calm, you know, over the last two years that we've all been talking about this Harry, whatever. I think today is significant. I think today coupled with the Mike Flynn stuff is significant. I think we are at a moment of which we -- I don't know how this story ends, but I don't think this presidency is ever going to regroup from today.

[23:25:03] I mean, there's nothing but the Russia investigation. So whether that just goes on for two more years and we have an election, whether there's a political firestorm and there's you know an impeachment hearing, we don't know yet, but the President is individual number one, right? And he is involved with cheating and lying and stealing and colluding with a foreign government. And two different legal offices made that determination this week.

LEMON: You heard what John Dean just said. Years to come. That is what he said.

KAYYEM: Yes.

LEMON: All right. Stand by everyone. President Trump says he is nominating William Barr for Attorney General. So who is he? And what are his views on the Russia investigation?

[23:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: President Trump saying today he will nominate William Barr to be the attorney general, the next attorney general. So, what are the views of the man who would oversee the Mueller investigation?

Juliette is back, Harry and Chris, as well. So Chris, let's start with you. Barr previously served as attorney eligible under President George H.W. Bush, 1991-1993. Sources tell CNN that Deputy A.G. Rod Rosenstein and others in the Justice Department, they are elated about the selection. Why do you think that is?

CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE DIVISION, FBI: I think he's a real professional. I think he's a straight-up person, a lot like the way I view Mueller, my former boss. I was a young agent, FBI agent serving in Miami when he was the attorney general, and he was an outstanding attorney general.

I didn't see -- you know, I've seen many political attorney generals come and go over the years. He really wasn't one of them. I look at him as a real professional, a real craftsman. I'm not sure that the president is aware of that, but he will not be controlled by this president.

LEMON: Do you think that Rosenstein thinks that he won't interfere then with the Mueller investigation and just let it roll out?

SWECKER: I think he'll let it play out. I really do.

LEMON: Do you guys agree?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think it's just hard to know. I mean, I think that -- I think what you're saying is right, that the fact he was at the Justice Department and the Justice Department has a, you know, sort of a way of being which seems to be part of anyone who's worked there as part of their genetic pool --

LEMON: He's an adult.

KAYYEM: He's an adult and he understands what the Justice Department means. That's all good. The willingness to take the job at this moment is just interesting. I mean, does he see himself as someone to help steer us through sort of what we're going through now or someone to protect the president? And I just don't know at this stage.

LEMON: If he's confirmed, what's the impact on the Russia investigation, Harry?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, I want to echo what both the guests have said. He really is, he's of the Justice Department. When he became A.G., he came up through the ranks. He wasn't a political appointee from outside which is unusual. He was the deputy, the acting, the OLC head.

He's got the stature for sure to stand up against improper political monkeying from the White House. That's probably why Rod Rosenstein likes him. There is a chance, he takes I think a slightly skeptical view of wide-ranging special counsel investigations, but it would be -- he would do it on principled grounds and I'm very confident he has extreme respect for Mueller who was the criminal division head when he was there.

So yeah, I think it's a pretty big step forward certainly over the current acting A.G. or a sort of more political figure whom Trump might have chosen.

LEMON: And so remember, anyone, Matthew Whitaker, anyone, I mean, he has been the acting A.G. since Sessions's firing.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I mean, he has been relatively quiet so far. What happened to him?

KAYYEM: Except all of this is happening under his watch. I mean, it's just sort of interesting that all of the -- you know, from Flynn to Manafort to Cohen today, I mean, you know, a lot of us thought he's going to come in and he's going to close this thing down and there's been the last two weeks have been remarkable in terms of the Mueller investigation. So --

LEMON: Yeah. Harry, we have to talk about that, too.

LITMAN: It's actually not clear to me he ever took the reign.

KAYYEM: Yeah.

LEMON: Yeah.

LITMAN: He may not have.

SWECKER: He was chumming the water for the press.

KAYYEM: Yeah.

LEMON: Yeah. OK. So listen, we've got talk about James Comey before we go, the former FBI director testifying in the House Judiciary and Oversight Committees behind closed doors today. Didn't hide his frustrations. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: After a full day of questioning, two things are clear to me. One, we could have done this in open setting. And two, when you read the transcript, you will see that we are talking again about Hillary Clinton's e-mails for heaven's sake. So, I'm not sure we need to do this at all, but I'm trying to respect the institution and to answer questions in a respectful way. You'll see I did that in the transcript.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, so listen, Harry, Comey resisted appearing, wanted to do it in public. What was this hearing really about?

LITMAN: Well, two things. As he says for them to try to whipsaw him one final time before the majority becomes the minority and beat him up about Hillary. But, for him, a chance to have a no holds barred statement at the end which he did have by agreement. And that's I think going to be the most interesting part of the transcript when it comes out tomorrow.

LEMON: Uh-huh. What do you think of that, Chris?

[23:35:02] SWECKER: Well, don, I'm no fan of Jim Comey, but I'm no fan of congressional investigations either. They announce their findings at the beginning of their "investigation." They're highly partisan and they're fairly useless as far as I'm concerned in terms of getting to the facts. So I think it's a big, what you and the press would call a nothing burger when he goes back to Congress.

(LAUGHTER)

SWECKER: He's not going to say anything. I served in the legal division in the FBI and I was one of those people that limited the testimony of people who were called in in congressional hearings and other types of hearings. And you're going to have an FBI monitor standing right behind him shutting him down every time he tries to open his mouth.

LEMON: Talk about the chief of staff, John Kelly, Juliette, testified to the special counsel, we learned today, asking about President Trump, trying to get the White House counsel Don McGahn to fire Mueller early on. This, I mean, does that speak to obstruction?

KAYYEM: Yeah, you would think that that is why he was brought in. What are the circumstances of the original sin, so to speak, the firing of Comey which began this whole process? When you think about Mueller would not be here if Comey had not been fired, because everything else was proceeding just under normal course.

And so I think I'm not surprised John Kelly was interviewed and who knows what he knew, how much he interpreted. But this John Kelly thick, I mean, I think we've been talking about John Kelly getting fired for like a year now or just wanting to leave. You kind of think, why doesn't John Kelly just walk out the door?

He's got a pension from the military. It is a weird, weird relationship. But what we do know, John Kelly was -- John Kelly never was the adult in the room. He never was able to tame this president and in fact empowered him on some of his worst impulses in particular on the immigration stuff.

The unaccompanied children and the issues involved with all of that immigration stuff and the caravan. That is John Kelly. That is who he is. And despite his great military record, that is how he should be remembered. In the end, that is how he should be remembered.

LEMON: Thank you all. I appreciate your time. After all the bad news coming from federal prosecutors today, the president incredibly tweeting that he's in the clear.

[23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Hours before today's court filings, President Trump was rage tweeting against Robert Mueller and his team of investigators, and now he's got what you'd have to call a surprising reaction to the Cohen and Manafort sentencing memos.

Let's discuss now. Scott Jennings is here. Rick Wilson. Rick is the author of "Everything Trump Touches Dies." OK, Rick, so, there were a lot of tweets, but they ended with this one. Totally clears the president. Thank you. I mean, is he talking about Obama? Is he talking about Bush? I don't know. But him? If he's talking about him, that clears it.

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I'm not sure -- I'm not sure individual one understands exactly how the law works. Because just wish casting yourself and saying oh, I'm cleared now, it's all good, is, you know, Donald Trump (INAUDIBLE) large and this is a guy who clearly spent the day in a growing state of anxiety and rage.

I mean this morning was some classic rage tweeting and you've got to imagine they were trying to beat the door of the John down (ph) trying to get the guy out to stop tweeting this morning.

LEMON: Hold on, Rick.

WILSON: And he ends today.

LEMON: Just look at your screen, everybody. This is just today. Sorry, Rick.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Continue.

WILSON: It's OK.

LEMON: Fourteen. Fourteen times.

WILSON: No, this is not a well man, Don. This is a guy who honestly believes that he can change the fabric of reality and make the law go away by tweeting at it. This is like King Canute trying to push the waves back. It's not going to work at the end of the day.

There's a lot of things today that are going to accrue in the assessment of Donald Trump including the fact that for the first time the Department of Justice has said that Donald Trump asked his minion, Michael Cohen, to commit felonies. This is an ugly bad no good day for Donald J. Trump.

LEMON: OK. Have you tweeted 14 times at all in your life?

(LAUGHTER)

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: All right. So listen, it's not a good week for the president. You know, he saw the expanding scope of the Mueller investigation. So how are Republicans now? Are they starting to sweat it out right now, or is it all fine? He's said it totally clears the president.

(LAUGHTER)

JENNINGS: Well, you know, the thing about the tweets and Mueller and all of this stuff that's going on is there's really nothing the president can do about it. The die is cast. You know, Cohen is cast. Manafort is cast. He has turned in his written answers. So, there's really nothing you can do. Mueller is going to do what he's going to do. The report is going to come out whenever it comes out. The one thing you can have control of is your own level of public facing confidence. Are you exhibiting confident behavior? Why is this important. I'll tell you why it is important.

Have you looked at your 401K this week? I I think the markets are rattled right now. Obviously, we're seeing these drops. If there is one major problem for the re-election of Donald Trump to me, it's the prospect of the economy not being as good, falling into recession, people not feeling like that they're stable in their own jobs or that their economic future is secure.

So, I've been looking at all of these things this week through the lens of what does this portend for a re-election campaign, and what I want to see the president do is act more confident. Don't act so rattled because you're rattling the markets and you're rattling the economy, and that of course would be a disaster if it goes south.

[23:45:01] LEMON: OK, so then OK, good, because my question was, how are Republicans? You're a Republican.

JENNINGS: Yes.

LEMON: How are you feeling? So there's a level of concern.

JENNINGS: Absolutely.

LEMON: Worry.

JENNINGS: Look, I think that some of the Mueller's stuff that's confined to some of these external players can be handled and dealt with. We still don't know what the full connectivity is to Trump and people around. That's still to come.

But the economy if it is not where it needs to be, if the economy falls into a recession, if it doesn't appear that he has a full handle on that, on the trade front, on the markets front, to me, I'm telling you, that's what has Republicans worried.

LEMON: OK, so one quick question. There's no worry that, oh, this stuff coming out in the report, wow, it looks like it's getting close to the president or there's -- no?

JENNINGS: Sure, there's worry, but, you know, no more worry than there has been since it started. I mean, whatever is going to happen is going to happen here. And there's nothing, like I said, I don't think the president can do a thing about it. No Republican can do a thing about it. But what a party can do is try to act confident and do what you have to do to have a strong economy. That to me is the division.

LEMON: OK. Rick, do you want to respond to that before we go on and talk about the --

WILSON: Look, I don't disagree with Scott's point that the economy is going to be very important in terms of the reelection effort. But I will say this. Donald Trump has been a causal factor of an awful lot of difficulties we are having in the economy right now by this trade war that has spooked the markets very directly.

And the markets are realizing that the tax bill was like hoovering up three or four big lines of Coke and all of a sudden, the crash is going to hit. The party's going to end. And so Wall Street is incredibly nervous about this now, and they are incredibly worried that the trade war that the president's instability mentally and legally is going to weigh on them, and that the sugar high of the tax bill is going to pass.

And so we're going to have the sort of perfect storm. At the same time, where wage growth has kept perking up enough to make the FED nervous about interest rates. So we're in a very difficult position economically. But a lot of that is of Donald Trump's own making.

He had no need to do this trade war. This was an absolutely optional matter on his matter and he chose to do it. So, you know, it's the Colin Powell pottery barn rule, you break it, you bought it.

LEMON: Yeah. Let's talk about the former secretary of state, Rex Tillerson. Some choice words about the president saying that he is undisciplined, doesn't like to read and this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REX TILLERSON, FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: The president would say, here's what I want to do, and here's how I want to do it. And I'd have to say to him, well, Mr. President, I understand what you want to do, but you can't do it that way. It violates the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Scott, Tillerson reportedly -- remember we were reporting on this. He reportedly called the president a moron. Is this a slightly more polite way of saying the same thing?

JENNINGS: I saw this comment today and he sort of just casually throws out there that the president of the United States is asking me to break the law. If you really felt that way, why aren't you talking to an investigator or Congress and not in some conversation making some offhanded comment like that?

So I wonder what he meant by that. And if it's as serious as people are treating it today, why is it just being flippantly said in one of these kinds of little conversations? So, now I suspect Democrats who control the House are going to say, well, you've got to come in and testify about this, right?

Because you said it to this guy, now you have to say it under oath, and then we'll know. I hope he didn't really mean break the law but those were the words he used. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

LEMON: So you're not worried?

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Go back to the other quell.

JENNINGS: I mean -- yes, look, I worry about everything. I think every Republican worries about -- how can you not? We just got beat in the House. You've got a president who has got external factors that he can't control. You've got economic issues that are rattled right now. Yeah, of course, you have to worry.

And every time another door opens or another window opens like this one, you've got to worry about that too, now that the Democrats can call anybody in they want and question them about it.

LEMON: It's like every time a door or window opens, an angel gets his -- I don't know.

(LAUGHTER)

JENNINGS: Yeah. You want to throw your phone at it.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: It's late.

(LAUGHTER)

JENNINGS: Toss your advice right out the window.

LEMON: An official gets an indictment. I don't know. OK, so, listen, or campaign I should say gets an indictment. Listen, Scott -- not Scott. Sorry. Rick, the president fired back. Here's what he said. He said, Mike Pompeo is doing a great job, I am very proud of him. His predecessor, Rex Tillerson, didn't have the mental capacity needed. He was dumb as a rock and I couldn't get rid of him fast enough. He was lazy as hell. Now it is a whole new ballgame, great spirit at state.

Tillerson ran a global corporation. Very profitable. Widely respected. He is one of the top CEOs in the country. Comments like that make the president look a little petty, you think?

[23:49:59] WILSON: Look, Rex Tillerson negotiated deals as the CEO of Exxon that where the rounding error was greater than every penny Donald Trump has ever made in his entire life. This is a guy who is absolutely -- you know, a globally recognized business leader who has seen as somebody who led a gigantic multinational corporation successfully.

This is not some two-bit Manhattan grifter who puts his name on buildings and goes bankrupt every five years. So Trump has always been jealous of business success outside of what his image is. And that's why Tillerson irks him so much. And, look, Rex Tillerson widely reported during the course of his tenure that he was uncomfortable with the president's management style.

And so the fact that he is saying the president asked him to do things that are illegal, how is anyone shocked by this now? Look, we saw it today, southern district of New York was reporting -- the DOJ is reporting --

LEMON: I got to run, Rick --

WILSON: Ask people to commit felonies.

LEMON: I got to run. I was just going to say, I don't think people are that shocked at what he said, it's just that he said it out loud. Thank you. I appreciate it.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: We'll be right back.

[23:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: For many, this time of year is about giving back, but the 12th annual CNN heroes all-star tribute salutes 10 people who put others first all year long. The star-studded gala airs live this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're humans helping humans and they need our help.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are truly giving the gift of mobility.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do the best the world has to offer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're building something that matters a lot more than we do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're heroes today and every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is like what it is, what is --

Girls Coding teaches girls how to program. It's all about solving problems.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We serve anybody who has ever raised their hand to defend our constitution.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My vision was to have a home where women could find safety and find themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our first goal was just to create this hospital- based intervention.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want each and every one of them to feel special. Join Anderson Cooper and Kelly Ripa live as they name the 2018 CNN hero of the year.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Here once again celebrating the best of humanity.

KELLY RIPA, ACTRESS: Don't we need this tonight more than ever? (APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN heroes, an all-star tribute, Sunday at 8:00 Eastern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It is going to be a great show. You won't want to miss it. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.

[00:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)