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Don Lemon Tonight

Russian Spy Now Cooperates with Mueller; Trump is Pissed Off; Bipartisan Voice Stands to Defend Democracy; Details about Maria Butina, the Alleged Russian Spy; James Comey Interviewed in Front of a Live Audience; The Search is On for a New White House Chief of Staff. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 10, 2018 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Looking for a deal that he could get a piece of. None of that was true. Why lie?

So, tonight we see that the president's concern that the Democrats may be out to impeach him is a justifiable concern. Do they have a case? Here's my final point. That's up to you. A lot of pressure, but all of this will come down to you.

This is not going to be about a criminal prosecution. I don't see it. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first one to admit it. But impeachment is about an echo effect of the public sentiment on the same. There will be polls. There will be reporting. There will be chances for you to be heard on this. That's what will drive what happens next.

Thank you for watching us tonight. Happy Monday. So much news. Let me get you right to Don. "CNN TONIGHT" starts now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: He lied about the lies that he lied about. It's in both.

CUOMO: Indeed.

LEMON: Yes, he did. He's like, let me tell you why I lied, and even in those statements, there is some factual errors in the statement as well.

To me, it's just I think it has been sort of accepted that this president lies and normalized in a way, and that is bothersome no matter who the president is. But that's just bothersome to me and what it does to the fabric of our society.

CUOMO: From the beginning, I took a lot of heat because you're calling out lies. Maybe they matter. Maybe they don't. But it's so pejorative. Lying is the basis of all criminal prosecution.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: And political upheaval.

LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: He has been lying about things. It is now becoming a matter of fact in terms of the understanding of what happened around him with respect to Russian interference. There going to be -- there is going to be trouble ahead.

LEMON: He's saying, well, they were private transactions, right, speaking of the payments that--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You're talking about the payments to the women.

LEMON: To Karen McDougal, to the women. But then if they were private transactions, why didn't he disclose them, right? And then he comes back to try to explain why he didn't, and then he lied about it.

And then, if, so why, again, you brought it up. Then why keep lying about the Trump Tower thing knowing that somehow -- I don't know. I don't get it. I don't get how so much lying is acceptable. It's just not for me. I know that politicians have issues with the truth sometimes, but this is on steroids, Chris. I mean it's outrageous.

CUOMO: Mueller is going to give us a set of facts, but then the game begins.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And what happens with those facts, I believe -- and, again, I could be wrong. Nobody will have more fun with that proposition than you. But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I'm right, it means what politicians will do will be a function of what people want them to do. And it's going to be a big burden, and we haven't had one like it in a long time.

LEMON: Well, it's going to -- I think public opinion is going to shape a lot of this, whether people believe it or not, and that is what he's banking on. But the truth is the truth is the truth. And people should dig down within themselves and think about it.

If you're a Trump supporter, how would you feel if Barack Obama had done the same thing or Bill Clinton or even George W. Bush? If they had done the exact same thing, how would you feel? I think they would be feeling a whole lot differently than they feel about this because nothing seems to matter right now. Truth doesn't matter unless -- the truth only matters for Trump supporters when it's a Democrat.

CUOMO: But that's not the truth.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And look, it could cut both ways. For the Democrats, this is a daunting proposition. What do you do with your power? And, you know, because it's not too long until 2020.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You know, we have another election a couple of years from now.

LEMON: Wait now. They should wait. They have time. Wait to see if something actually does transpire. And again, you don't want to talk about impeachment if it's not a real possibility. You want to get on with the business of the American people. And that is ultimately what will keep you in good stead with the American people.

CUOMO: Nancy Pelosi said the same thing to me the day after the election.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. I'll see you tomorrow.

CUOMO: Yes, sir.

LEMON: This is CNN tonight. I'm Don Lemon. President Trump out of sight, staying behind closed doors inside the White House today. But we know what's on his mind.

Breaking news tonight. Sources telling CNN that the president has expressed concern that he could be impeached when the Democrats take control of the House in January, OK?

And also, tonight, 44 former U.S. senators writing an op-ed in the Washington Post. Here it is. They are warning that the country is entering -- here's the op-ed -- entering what they call a dangerous period and calling on current senators to zealously guard our democracy.

They say they feel an obligation to speak up about serious challenges to the rule of law, to the Constitution, our governing institutions, and our national security. When have you heard of anything like that?

[22:04:49] This is at the same time as prosecutors for the first time implicate President Trump, implicate him in possible criminal activity, accusing him as a candidate for office of directing his former personal lawyer and fixer, Michael Cohen, to pay hush money, to buy the silence of two women who claim to have had affairs with Trump.

Prosecutors writing in the Cohen document this. "As Cohen himself has now admitted with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of individual one." You know who prosecutors say is individual one? They identify him as Donald Trump.

The president lashing out at the accusations this morning in a tweet, misspelling by the way the word smoking. Here's what he writes. "He says, Democrats can't find a 'smocking' gun tying the Trump campaign to Russia after James Comey's testimony. No 'smocking' gun. No collusion. That's because there was no collusion. So now the Dems go to a simple private transaction, wrongly call it a campaign contribution, which it was not. Lawyers liability if he made a mistake, not me. Cohen just trying to get his sentence reduced."

All right. There's a lot in there, and we'll talk about it. So, let's break down some of what he is claiming there, OK? He's admitting payments were made. Now he's admitting it. He didn't before. But he's admitting payments were made to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, but he is dismissing them as simple private transactions. There's always an excuse for why he lied. But he can't keep his story straight.

So, remember when he lied about the payments when questioned by reporters on Air Force One? This was back in the spring. Let me remind you. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, did you know about the $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why did Michael--

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: What else?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did Michael Cohen make this if there was no truth to her allegations?

TRUMP: Well, you'll have to ask Michael Cohen. Michael is my attorney, and you'll have to ask Michael.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know where he got the money to make that payment?

TRUMP: No, I don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Well, here's what prosecutors have to say about it. In their court filing, they flat out call the payments illegal campaign contributions. Illegal campaign contributions.

I want you to listen to this closely because this has been bugging me for the last few days. I just want to scream at the television when I see it. President Trump and his apologists -- OK? If you're one of them, listen. Working very hard to claim that this is business as usual. And even if it wasn't, it's just like what Obama did during his campaign.

That is a flat-out lie. Legal experts will agree. Do a fact check, will you? And let me give you some now, and we'll talk about it more in the show. The Obama campaign did miss filing deadlines and did not promptly refund excess contributions, which they admitted, and they paid, and they paid the fines.

My guest -- well, some of my guests will tell you campaigns are fined for doing that all the time. Sometimes there are clerical errors. Sometimes there are other reasons. That is not the same at all as creating a shell company or using a media company to pay hush money for affairs with a porn star and a playboy model during an election so that the public -- the voting public wouldn't find out. It is not the same at all. Come on. Don't be stupid. Don't think that people are stupid by pretending that

this is equal and the same thing. It is not. Democrats who are about to take over key House investigative committees with subpoena power issuing warnings to the president. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERROLD NADLER, (D) NEW YORK: They would be impeachable offenses. Whether they are important enough to justify impeachment is a different question, but certainly they'd be impeachable offenses.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D) CALIFORNIA: My takeaway is there's a very real prospect that on the day Donald Trump leaves office, the Justice Department may indict him, that he may be the first president in quite some time to face the real prospect of jail time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, after Robert Mueller and the New York prosecutors filed their sentencing documents on Friday, President Trump incredibly tweeted this message. "Totally clears the president. Thank you."

I'll say that again. "Totally clears the president. Thank you." How he came to that conclusion is mind-boggling. The filings say nothing of the kind. And Mueller points out that Michael Cohen was working on the Trump Tower Moscow project well into June of 2016 and keeping Trump in the loop about it.

[22:00:53] When Trump basically had the GOP nomination in hand and the Russians were interfering in the election. But as usual, President Trump's deflecting, saying this at the White House on Saturday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: On the Mueller situation, we're very happy with what we are reading because there was no collusion whatsoever. There never has been. The last thing I want is help from Russia on a campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is an interesting statement, especially in light of reporting that now shows at least 16 associates of Donald Trump had contact with Russians during the 2016 campaign and the transition period following Trump's election victory.

Remember, Russia, if you have e-mails, send them out? Didn't need Russia's help, though. The walls are closing in, and we can expect Trump's tweets to get even more and even angrier and more unhinged.

And if that's not enough, tonight a source is telling CNN that accused Russian spy Maria Butina is cooperating with federal prosecutors as part of a plea deal. A plea deal where she admits to spying in the U.S. for Russia.

Max Boot is here. He's with me to talk about that in just a few minutes, OK? Also, tonight, though, the president has another immediate problem. He needs to find a new chief of staff and is said to be super pissed -- that's a quote -- because the person he wanted for the job, Vice President Pence's chief of staff, Nick Ayers, said no.

The president didn't have a backup plan and is now starting the search from scratch, all over again. He wants someone in place soon, someone with political savvy. Word is from the White House is that the president, President Trump is becoming increasingly concerned about Democrats taking over the House come January with all their oversight and subpoena power at the ready.

So, there is a whole lot to get to, but we begin with the news that accused Russian spy Maria Butina is cooperating with federal prosecutors as part of a plea deal. So, let's bring in Max Boot. He's the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism, Why I Left the Right." Max, thank you so much. What kind of information could Butina provide to American investigators?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's very interesting, Don. I mean, this really seems like something out of a sequel to the Manchurian candidate, but this is fact, not fiction. And the reality is Robert Mueller has already indicted 25 Russians on charges of interfering in the U.S. election, but Maria Butina is the first one who is actually in U.S. custody and who is cooperating with American prosecutors.

So, it's quite possible she could shed more light on what the Russians are up to, especially because she was quite close to Alexander Torshin, who was the deputy governor of the Russian central bank and somebody who was close to Putin and was somebody who was focused on infiltrating the NRA and through the NRA, Republican politics.

LEMON: I want to play this for you. This is a clip of Butina asking then-candidate Donald Trump, right, a question. It was at a campaign event in 2015. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BUTINA, ACCUSED RUSSIAN SPY: I'm visiting from Russia.

TRUMP: Putin. Good friend of Obama, Putin.

BUTINA: My question--

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: He liked Obama a lot. Go ahead.

BUTINA: If you would be elected as president, what will be your foreign politics especially in the relationships with my country, and do you want to continue the politics of sanctions that are damaging both economy, or you have any other ideas?

TRUMP: OK. Obama gets along with nobody. The whole world hates us. I know Putin, and I'll tell you what. We get along with Putin. I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin, OK? (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, she asks if sanctions will continue, which is pretty clearly a major foreign policy goal for Russia, right?

BOOT: Right. Very bizarre situation where you wonder if that was a setup with her asking that question. But it just points to the fact that there was a massive Russian penetration of American politics and specifically of the Republican Party, and Maria Butina was part of that operation.

LEMON: We have to remember at the same time this was when they were trying to get -- at least Trump, his business--

BOOT: Yes.

LEMON: -- the business part of what he does.

BOOT: Yes.

LEMON: -- trying to get this tower in Moscow, this Trump Tower in Moscow.

BOOT: That's right. I mean you kind of have to laugh at Donald Trump constantly protesting, no collusion, no collusion, no collusion, no smoking gun, et cetera, when you see more and more evidence of collusion, with the fact that there were at least 16 Trump aides who had contacts with the Russians, a total of almost 100 contacts that we know about.

And some of them incredibly suspicious, things that if they had come out during the campaign could well have sunk the Trump campaign. I mean imagine if we had known that the Trump high command was meeting with Russians who were promising dirt on Hillary Clinton right before they actually started leaking dirt through WikiLeaks.

I mean that is highly suggestive, and so is the fact that Trump and his aides have consistently lied about that and not just lied about it, but Donald Trump has also obstructed justice to stop the investigation of what happened. So, I mean you can't imagine a more nefarious or suggestive set of facts, Don.

[22:15:01] LEMON: I want to read this and get your reaction to this. This is a letter by 44 Democratic and Republican, former senators in the Washington Post tonight, OK?

And they write, Max, "whatever united or divided us, we did not veer from our unwavering and shared commitment to placing our country democracy and national interest above all else. At other critical moments in our history when constitutional crises have threatened our foundations, it has been the Senate that has stood in defense of our democracy. Today, is once again such a time."

What are the former senators getting at here, you think? What would it look like for the Senate to stand up for the rule of law? BOOT: Well, for starters, they should pass the bill protecting Robert

Mueller from being fired by Donald Trump. But I think more broadly, I think what we're seeing is evidence potentially of high crimes and misdemeanors for which the House would certainly be willing to impeach Donald Trump if they thought that there was any chance of removing him in the Senate.

And so, the question becomes, will senators examine the evidence fairly and on the merits, or will the Republican senators put their partisan loyalty above their patriotism to the country? And clearly, these former senators, stress former, are telling their current colleagues, please put your patriotism and your devotion to the country over your faith to the Republican Party.

LEMON: Or to just--

(CROSSTALK)

BOOT: Or Donald Trump.

LEMON: There you go. Thank you, Max Boot.

Federal prosecutors for the first time implicating President Trump in possible criminal activity, campaign finance violations. How much legal jeopardy could he face? We're going to talk about that next.

[22:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now. We want to discuss with John Dean and former Acting Solicitor General Neal Katyal. Good evening to both of you, gentlemen. Thank you for joining us.

John, I'm going to start with you. I just want do get your reaction to these 44 former U.S. senators from both parties warning that, quote, "we are entering a dangerous period," and saying, "the Senate must stand in defense of democracy." That mean, I mean, that's quite a wake-up call, isn't it?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Is that to me, Don?

LEMON: Yes, that's you, John, yes.

DEAN: OK. I was -- I found that letter stunning. It's an amazing story, that 44 former members of the Senate wrote to their incumbents, and I think they really are directing it to the majority leader.

LEMON: You think so?

DEAN: They're telling him get -- I do. And I think they're telling him stop all this nonsense and start standing up and talking about what this country is about.

LEMON: Yes. Neal, let me read some of it and get your reaction. This is part of their op-ed. They said, "Regardless of party affiliation, ideological leanings or geography, as former members of this great body, we urge current and future senators to be steadfast and zealous guardians of our democracy by ensuring that partisanship or self- interest not replace national interest." Can it be done given the extreme partisanship we see now?

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: Well, holy smocks, Don. When I read that, you know, tears actually came to my eyes, because I mean, I really have been saying this for a long time. So many others and, you know, to have a letter like this and it's signed not just by Democrats but by Jack Danforth, one of the kind of most esteemed members of the Republican Party serving in the Senate, you know, it's welcome and long overdue.

And I am very optimistic that this is the turning point. I mean, we had prosecutors on Friday, career prosecutors at Trump's Justice Department, say Trump committed -- directed the commission of various felonies that are really serious, and I think the time is now.

We have to look at it and say things are changing. People are waking up and realizing what's happening. And this letter, this bipartisan letter, it's in the spirit of so much else. You know, I had the privilege of writing with George Conway a series of articles about this kind of stuff, and this letter continues that tradition. And that's really the American tradition. So, it's really heartwarming to see.

LEMON: You really see -- you really think that the tide is turning?

KATYAL: I do. I do. I think that, you know, it's small steps now, but I do think that as people look at this and understand the gravity of the crime that was committed and the gravity of things which aren't crimes necessarily like Trump hiding all this stuff about Russia in 2016.

Maybe that's not all always a crime, but, boy, the amount of kompromat, comprising material that the Russians had because the Russians knew that he lied to the American people during the campaign, and they've held it over him for two years.

LEMON: Yes.

KATYAL: This is an astounding thing. And so, yes, you take all of that together, I'm very optimistic that the tide is turning and will continue to.

LEMON: Let's talk about the accusations here, at least of a crime, John, that Neal mentioned. The president is implicated in two felonies in the Southern District of New York's filing on Michael Cohen.

He's trying to downplay the payments, saying it was, quote, "simple, private" -- a simple, private transaction or simple, private transactions. But that's not the case, no matter how hard he tries to spin this.

DEAN: No, it is not the case. And you know what struck me about some of his defense and some of his defenders have been what they've missed is that several people were given immunity from criminal prosecution to testify in those cases. Weissenbach and Pecker. Weissenbach from the Trump organization was

given use immunity of some sort, and Pecker of the National Enquirer was given immunity. You don't give immunity to people who are involved in civil cases, who don't feel the threat of criminal charges being if they go before a grand jury.

So, they just can't dismiss this the way they want to and pretend that it's a civil action or its equivalent of Obama's actions.

LEMON: I've got to ask you, and I want to play this, guys, because this is Senator Chris Coons. He was on with Wolf Blitzer earlier. He is echoing Congressman Adam Schiff, that Trump could potentially be indicted after leaving office. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:24:59] SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: The evidence that's been presented in the Michael Cohen case that the president directed him to engage in payments that were intended to influence the outcome of the election really sharpens the president's legal risk here, and I agree with Congressman Schiff that that might well form the basis for an indictment after the president leaves office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All right. Just to get both of your responses, do you agree with his assessment, Neal?

KATYAL: I absolutely do. So, you know, look, I think -- and John's on and knows Watergate, and a lot of people are saying the question that's going to be asked, just like what did Nixon know and when did he know it?

Here I think precisely for the reasons John is mentioned about immunity, the proper analogy when going back criminal indictment is actually the mob. And that is increasingly how the White House is looking like how they're behaving. And with the mob investigation, the kind of key thing is, did the leader know about it, or was he studiously avoiding knowing about certain things?

And I think the one thing we can say about Donald Trump is he's not exactly a conscientious student when it comes to the law. And I think it's fair to say that he's no Tony soprano or something like that who is structuring all his organizations and stuff to necessarily avoid things. He almost certainly knew everything that was going on, and that's the essence of what the sentencing memo on Friday said from career prosecutors, that Trump directed all of this stuff.

And, boy, that is looking like a felony and a very serious felony. This may be the most significant campaign contribution ever in United States history in terms of swinging an election, these two payments to the women.

LEMON: I got to get to a break, John, but quickly do you agree with Senator Coons?

DEAN: I do.

LEMON: You do?

DEAN: I do. I think they're saying what needs to be said.

LEMON: Yes.

DEAN: And I'm glad they did.

LEMON: Well, there are still some Republicans there in Washington who say, so what? What if he did break a law? What if it -- you know, and they're trying to downplay this so-called campaign, a possible campaign violations, contribution violations.

We'll talk about that when we come back.

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Contrasting opinions on the state of President Trump's potential legal problems tonight. Back with me, John Dean and Neal Katyal, OK. So, Neal, you on this one, I just want your reaction to this. Our Manu Raju caught up with Senator Orrin Hatch. And he is dismissing allegations of Trump crimes over hush money. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: The Democrats will do anything to hurt this President, anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But this is not the Democrats. This is the Southern District of New York, the U.S. attorney. I mean that's what's making this allegation.

HATCH: OK. But I don't care. All I can say is he's doing a good job as President. I don't think he was involved in crimes. But even then, you know, you can make anything a crime under the current laws if you want to. You can blow it way out of proportion. You can do a lot of things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So it's the Democrats. And then he says I don't care. And then he said you can make -- what?

KATYAL: Oh, Lordy. I don't even know where to begin. But there are tapes. So I think the first thing to say about this new thing is that, you know, this is very different than the defense we've been hearing for many months. I mean Trump was asked in April, you know, was asked the following. Mr. President, do you know about the $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels.

Answer, quote. No, no. Ask Michael Cohen about it. So now it's all, oh, no, he did know. But, you know, people violate the law all the time, which is an astounding thing for a senator to say, even more astounding for a senator, of course, can change the laws so that people aren't all walking around and felons without knowing it. He is wrong about everything he just said.

This is not some Democratic thing. This is actually career prosecutors in New York who are part of the Trump Justice Department, who are saying all of this stuff. This is not even the Mueller team. This is a whole separate team. But the bottom line, I think what you can see happening is the President losing confidence in any one of his defenses.

He's changing them constantly. And I think the only words that could be said for that are bait and witch.

LEMON: Here's what he -- he just admitted what I think most Republican congressmen and senators are saying. Oh, it doesn't matter. I don't really care if he committed crimes. That is the real truth. I mean as a voting American or just an American citizen, I wonder what people think about that. I don't care if the President committed crimes, meaning he's above the law, meaning it's all political, that the President doesn't have the same standards as the people who hired him.

But, John, listen. I got to play this. Orrin Hatch, the most senior GOP Senator. And I just want to play what he said. This is about President Clinton a couple of days before he voted on articles of impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HATCH: I am just saying that it's been lying from the beginning. And the person to blame is none other than our President. Now, look. I have been fair to the President. Let me finish. I have been fair to the President. I like the President. But what he's done here is reprehensible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN DEAN, CONTRIBUTOR, CNN: Well...

LEMON: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. I just want to say before, here's what he said in his statement at the time, all right? This is from the New York Times. This is in 1999. He said committing crimes of moral turpitude such as perjury and obstruction of justice go to the heart of qualification for office, hypocrisy much here?

DEAN: Well, I think he has -- I am close enough to him in age to say that I think he has slipped a lot in the last 19 years. It's kind of sad. I don't think he's thinking things through very clearly. And I think he says the first thing that comes to his mind. And he's in a total defense mode for Trump. He has -- not only has he been drinking the Kool-Aid, he's looking for something as he heads into retirement.

LEMON: I just want to say before you go, just remind you -- go ahead, Neal.

KATYAL: I was just going to say, you know, I don't think this is really about Senator Orrin Hatch. This is about Donald Trump. He is our nation's chief law enforcement officer. He takes an oath to uphold the constitution. He's the one the world looks to for leadership, for compliance with our most basic values, and this is what he's doing. This is not the way any President should behave.

LEMON: Hey, listen. I am out of time. But I just want to remind folks. You mentioned it earlier what you did with Kellyanne Conway's husband, George Conway. You recently co-authored an op-ed responding to Trump blaming Democrats. And here's what you write, OK? You said, no, the criminal campaign finance violations were found by professional (Inaudible) prosecutors in Republican -- this is George Conway writing this.

[22:35:07] In a Republican controlled United States Department of Justice. It looks like a pretty good case, kudos to them. Again, George Conway, a Republican and also Kellyanne Conway's husband. And you also recently co-authorized an op-ed with him. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time, gentlemen. I'll see you soon. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So CNN is learning tonight that Maria Butina, the alleged Russian spy is cooperating with federal prosecutors after initially not saying a word when she was arrested back in July. Butina is now admitting she conspired with a Russian government official while working here in the U.S. A source saying it is part of a plea deal.

So I want to bring in now James Clapper, the Former Director of Intelligence.

Good evening to you. My goodness, we hear these things. There are denials, and then all of a sudden there are admissions. And then there's a pleading guilty. So here we go again, Director. What's your read on an alleged Russian spy, Maria Butina, now cooperating with the federal prosecutors?

[22:40:14] JAMES CLAPPER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's -- unfortunately, you know, a pattern that seems to be all too familiar. I will tell you, Don, the thing that struck me, a couple things about this. First of all, this was completely separate from the Mueller investigation.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

CLAPPER: Second, I think it reflects the -- how astute the Russians are about understanding our political ecosystem and their attempts to penetrate conservative groups. And what more important conservative group than the NRA, which the Russians certainly understand has a death grip on many of our politicians.

So it makes every bit of sense from the Russian perspective that they would want to penetrate the NRO -- or the NRA to extend their influence. And I think it's also interesting not knowing exactly the terms of the plea agreement, exactly who she was working for and what instructions that she had and how she was financed.

LEMON: Yeah. CLAPPER: So this is a very interesting and significant development,

quite apart from the Mueller investigation.

LEMON: So listen, I just want to ask you quickly. This is unusual (Inaudible). By our count, at least 16 Trump associates had contacts with Russians during the campaign. We have them up there in the screen, from Paul Manafort to Rick Gates to Flynn, Jeff Sessions, Roger Stone, Caputo, Jared Kushner is on this list, Ivanka Trump, Felix Sater, Michael Cohen. Is that unusual first?

CLAPPER: I think it certainly is. I don't know of any President for this at all. And this is what has bugged me from the outset of this. Is why all this contact with the Russians of all people, our arch adversary? And, of course, what -- I mean as more and more of this has unfolded and now we're now more and more aware of these additional contacts, you know, the plot thickens and...

LEMON: Well, that's what I want to ask you. Why were they all so willing to have these meetings, these contacts, and why did some of them lie about those contacts?

CLAPPER: Well, obviously, that's the question. Why did the President try to lie about -- not try? Why did he lie about his dealings with the Russians? And certainly, he is aware. I am quite sure, quite confident he was aware of all these other contacts. And so what was the point? Was it just to make money, Trump Tower in Moscow?

I guess something he's long wanted to do. You know, was there in fact an offer of a $50 billion penthouse to Putin? You know, this -- you know, this is not good. It's just -- it says a whole lot about the ethics or lack thereof of this administration and this President.

LEMON: Director, let's talk about the former FBI Director James Comey, OK? He was interviewed in front of a live audience at New York City's 92nd Street Y. And he was asked whether he thinks -- if he thinks the lying is catching up with Trump. Here's his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I can't see what the end of the Mueller effort looks like. I don't know what form it will take. I don't know what they'll conclude. And so I can't say in that respect. I can tell you that all of us should use every breath we have to make sure that the lying stops on January 20th, 2021.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I mean you have to admit it is pretty remarkable, a remarkable thing to hear from a former head of the FBI, especially when another former FBI Director, Mueller, is leading an investigation that involves the President.

CLAPPER: Well, it is. And I think Jim makes a good point. This has been his position from the outset is, well, the only satisfactory way to resolve this is at the polling place. Impeachment, and there seems to be a gathering storm for that just from recent developments. But I think, however, an impeachment came out, whether it was successful, that is, a conviction on the part of the senate or not.

All that would do is heighten the polarization and divisiveness in this country that is already pretty bad. And I think the only way ahead here that -- the most optimistic way ahead would be to settle this at the polling place. So I think Jim makes a very good point.

LEMON: Director Clapper, appreciate your time. Thank you.

CLAPPER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: A source says that the President is, quote, super pissed. And that's a quote again, super pissed about the search for a new Chief of Staff. That word is not my favorite word. So why announce that John Kelly is out without having a backup plan? Why did he do it? That's next.

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[22:45:00] LEMON: The search is on for a new White House Chief of Staff. And with General Kelly expected to leave the administration at the end of the year, the President doesn't have much time. Nick Ayers, the Chief of Staff for Vice President Pence, widely considered the top candidate for the job. He took himself out of consideration on Sunday.

So let's discuss. Chris Cillizza is here, Kirsten Powers. Chris, wasn't this fake news, that John Kelly was happy and not going anywhere?

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yes. I mean, look, it doesn't take you all that long to go back through Donald Trump's quotes and tweets, in which he says General Kelly and I have talked, and he'll be staying through 2020. Now we, of course, knew at the time that was solely Trump being reactive to news saying he had tired of Kelly, which by the way in retrospect was 100 percent accurate like most of the things he calls fake news.

[22:50:07] And he just goes back on it. He says things in the moment to try to counter things that are true and play to his base.

LEMON: Our sources are saying super pissed, right, super pissed that Ayers -- I don't know why I hate that word. I have such an aversion to that word, said that Ayers said no, right? And so he has no plan B. This is a testament just to how chaotic this White House is.

CILLIZZA: Yeah. I mean I actually think a lot of times when you hear officials quoted on background -- senior administration official and they pooh-pooh something that then happens. I actually don't think that they're lying or trying to mislead. I think it is the nature of this White House that he, Donald Trump, changes his mind very quickly. Often, I would say in reaction to press coverage.

And therefore this move, he will move on to something else and say this was always the plan. But make no mistake. On Sunday night, this time yesterday, Don, Nick Ayers was likely to be the guy. He takes himself out in a big surprise. It doesn't play out the way Trump wants. The narrative is this guy walked away from me. He doesn't like that. That makes him mad.

He'll move on to the next person. And as he tweeted out last night, this is all part of the plan. It is fake news that I wanted Nick Ayers. It is not fake news. Remember, fake news for him means news I don't like.

LEMON: Yeah.

CILLIZZA: Not actual fake news.

LEMON: Or when people actually catch me in a lie. OK, so listen -- I just want to play -- this is the President back in March, by the way. Let's play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So many people want to come in. I have a choice of anybody. I could take any position in the White House, and I will have a choice of the 10 top people having to do with that position. Everybody wants to be there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Now we know that's really not the case, is it?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: No. It's definitely not the case. And I think -- look. You have to ask why does nobody want to work in this White House. And the fact of the matter is it's an incredibly chaotic place. It's a place where the President doesn't really want to have things under control. But you do need to have somebody there to manage the staff.

But once you take a job in this White House, very few people actually, if they can even do the job while they're there. By the time they leave, they've had their reputation completely destroyed. I mean look at what's happened to John Kelly right now. He's been humiliated rather than at least being allowed to leave on his own terms.

LEMON: Yeah. So let me put up this list for you, Kirsten, OK? And then we'll talk about it. This is some of the candidates and how they have reacted. The Budget Director Mick Mulvaney has been floated as a name but is not interested, OK? The Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin feels like he is best suited for the current role. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer feels the same way.

Congressman Mark Meadows said he's absolutely not interested but then said it would be an honor to serve. The Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker is interested in the job. Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, also in the running along with Former Deputy Campaign Manager David Bossie, among these candidates, who do you think is the most qualified right now? And do they have a chance?

POWERS: Well, I mean I am sure out of that list there's a couple of people who could do a good job. Probably Steve Mnuchin could do a good job, though I don't think he has the kind of knowledge about Washington that you typically would want for a Chief of Staff. But he's somebody who has the President's confidence, and he's obviously competent.

But why would you want to go from Treasury Secretary into that viper's nest basically, where you're overrunning your own, you know, organization, a very high status position. And now, suddenly you're in the middle of, you know, just basically complete chaos and backbiting, and you're going to fail probably, right? The idea that you -- there are very few people who go into that White House and are able to survive it or, you know, without being absolute sycophants.

And then when they leave, their reputations are destroyed. I just don't know why anybody would take the job.

LEMON: I want you to respond to that because think about it, right? You've got to be a pretty skilled person if you think about it, because they have to deal with -- I want to make sure I get them all in here. They have to deal with Mueller, right, a Democratic Congress eager to investigate the President, a re-election campaign, and his worry about impeachment. That's going to -- that person has to be really skilled, whoever takes over.

CILLIZZA: Yeah. I mean look. It's a very difficult job, White House Chief of Staff, under the best of circumstances, with a pretty -- what we would say normal, a President who adheres to accepted norms, OK, and whether it's in dealing with staff, dealing with the media, dealing with policy, etcetera. This is not that President who adheres to established norms.

He is someone -- I mean, to Kirsten's point, they always say like a baseball manager, your best day is the day you that get announced as the manager, because basically from then on you're just waiting to be fired. It kind of feels like that -- I still remember, I think I was in L.A., doing a thing for CNN when Reince Priebus got fired on the tarmac via tweet and John Kelly was brought in.

[22:55:10] And I just remember Trump tweeting and talking about John Kelly in these reverential tones, going to bring order, and look at his career, is a military man, and he's the kind of guy we need. And I know his time in that job is coming to an end now. But the truth of the matter is six months ago, stories were coming out when Donald Trump was calling it fake news, that said Donald Trump unhappy with John Kelly.

So there's no win here. This is an unwinnable job. It's a hard job in any circumstances. It's an impossible job now. Why volunteer for it?

LEMON: And we know how much he loves to be managed, Kirsten. That's sarcasm.

POWERS: Yeah, exactly, right, yeah. Well, no, exactly. I mean he is unmanageable. And that's why I am saying I just don't think there's really any sane person who would go into this job unless maybe you're a Chris Christie, who you don't really have anything else to do. But it's very hard to believe that that would happen, considering that he sent Jared Kushner's father to jail. And just -- I don't -- all this churning that happened around John

Kelly was driven in large part by Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, who have incredible influence over the President. And so the idea that he's even on the list is very, very hard to believe. But in the end, I just don't think he wants somebody who's really going to manage him.

But at some part of him, he knows that he's going to need that because of what's coming down the road.

LEMON: That's got to be the last word. I have got to run. Thank you, both. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.

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