Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

President Trump Sees Impeachment As A Real Possibility; At Least 16 Trump Associates Had Contact With Russians; Alleged Russian Spy, Maria Butina, Reaches Plea Deal, Admits She Conspired With A Russian Government Official; Are Democrats Making Impeachment References Too Soon?; Hate In America On The Rise; Who Will Be The "Times'" Person of the Year? Aired 11-12a ET

Aired December 10, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Here's the breaking news. A source close to President Trump telling CNN, that the President now sees impeachment as a real possibility when Democrats take control of the House in January. Another source close to the White House tells CNN, the issues causing the west wing the most concern are the campaign finance violations alleged by prosecutors for the Southern District of New York. Those are the hush money payments President Trump directed his former attorney Michael Cohen to make payments to Trump's alleged mistresses just before the 2016 election.

Also breaking tonight a bipartisan group of 44 former U.S. Senators penning an op-ed in "The Washington Post" warning the country's entering, what they call a dangerous period, saying the foundational principles of our democracy and our national security interests are at stake. They're calling on current Senators to zealously safeguard our democracy.

A lot to get to. So, I want to bring in now Ryan Lizza, Juliette Kayyem, and Greg Miller. He is the author of "The Apprentice: Trump, Russia and the Subversion of American Democracy." So good to have all of you on this evening.

So let me start with you, Ryan. Here it is right here. You see what I'm reaching for. This is the letter, the op-ed that 44 Senators wrote, saying we have to be guardians of our democracy. What does that say about the state of our country to you, that you have these people doing this?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, it was mostly Democrats, but there were about half a dozen or so Republicans in there. And it suggests that there are these people out there, former Senators, who believe that the political system isn't quite grappling with the seriousness of what's going on.

And they want to nudge their fellow Senators and basically tell them to step up and take this a little more seriously than you have been, that what they're reading in the papers, what they're learning obviously from the Mueller investigation is serious and to get out of their partisan thinking and make sure that just because, you know, this President might be of the same party that you look at the allegations seriously and independently. We had a great example today with Orrin Hatch, who didn't do that.

LEMON: Well, I just want to ask you, is that what they're saying? OK, don't be like Orrin Hatch and say it doesn't really matter, I don't care if it's a crime or not, or it's the Democrats or you can make up a crime.

LIZZA: Look, if there's a headline on this piece, it was put the country before party. That is what they're saying.

LEMON: Here's what a source close to the President is saying, Juliette, that Trump says that he has expressed concern that he could be impeached when the Dems take control of the House. Should he be worried?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Oh, yes. I mean, it's actually sort of so rationally clear for him. And I think -- I don't know if he will be impeached. That is a lot of Senators that have to defect, to actually have the impeachment stick, but I don't get -- I think it's absurd to take impeachment off the table. I know, you know, Jim Comey yesterday, the former FBI Director, you know, said in New York, we just have to vote him out in 2020.

There's nothing I've seen over the last two years that would suggest this thing is stopping. It's gotten closer to the White House. It's worse than any of us ever imagined. It's you know, about sex and payoffs and Russia collusion and contacts with the Russians. I say it's on the table. I've never said that before. I don't know where it heads. And the President ought to be worried.

LEMON: Well, that is one thing we should know. When you're talking about sex and paying off porn stars, listen, folks in the Bible Belt in the middle of the country and the Evangelicals, they will never stand for this, right? That was sarcasm.

KAYYEM: I'll be the last person to -- yes. I know. I'd be the last person to speak for them, but just picking up on Ryan's point, you know, people have been waiting for a eureka moment when the country stands up and says let's -- it may just be a lot of, you know, dribbles and raindrops and trickles down until the moment in which it's not sustainable. And this letter is a part of that. It's not going to be the next day we wake up.

LEMON: All right. Greg, I want to bring you in now. I want you to check out this list, 16 Trump associates, 16 of them who have contacts with Russia. And this is just the people we know about. Do you think there are even more possibly?

GREG MILLER, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think that there's always a chance that there's more. We keep learning more and more it seems almost every week in this saga. And I think you know that you look at that list and one of the amazing things about it is it's hard to as far as I know, not one of them ever reached out to the FBI or reported any of these contacts in a way that indicated that any of them were troubled by their interactions with Russia. The way that you would expect people who are interested in public service to be.

[23:05:40] LEMON: Yes. So they didn't report it as you said to your knowledge, but some of them did lie about their contacts to the FBI.

MILLER: That is right. There were lots of -- lots of attempts to cover these things up. I mean, the other thing I think that is interesting about this is just sort of, you know, on both sides, on the Russian side and on the Trump side and his inner circle there, their tradecraft here was so clumsy across the board that it hasn't been that hard really for Robert Mueller to piece together astonishing details about all of these contacts.

LEMON: Ryan, President Trump has insisted repeatedly that his campaign had nothing to do with Russia. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have nothing to do with Putin.

I have nothing to do with Russia. To the best of my knowledge, no person that I deal with does.

It has nothing to do with what they said about looking for Russians involved in our campaign. There were none.

I have nothing to do with Russia.

There is no collusion. We have nothing to do with Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So far we know, and here's the list of 16 people. You see that list? Does that look like -- and you have to squeeze the font smaller, so they can fit all on one page in case I need to reference them. That is 16 people. Does that look like nothing to do with Russia?

LIZZA: That is a lot of people. And what we've learned most directly is that right through 2016. He was and his company was still negotiating this building deal in Russia. To me that is the most important revelation of the last few weeks, because that means that while he was taking positions as a candidate on Putin, on sanctions, on what to do about Russia, he was also trying to get something from Moscow, right? To me, that is one of the most - you know, that might not even be illegal, but in terms of an abuse of his position at the time is pretty serious.

LEMON: If that is nothing to do, I wonder, what something to do with Russia looks like?

LIZZA: He just lies. He just denies things all the time. Can I just say one thing about impeachment?

LEMON: Sure.

LIZZA: I mean, we have never had a scandal of this magnitude in a President's first term. All the big possible impeachment scandals were second-term issues, right. Watergate, really flowered after Nixon's re-election. Iran contra, which obviously didn't lead to impeachment, that was a second term issue and the Monica Lewinsky scandal, second term. So we're kind of in this unusual position with a big explosive potential abuse of power scandal before a President's re-election.

And you know, there are a number of ways that this could go down. If things are that serious, he could -- people could -- Republicans could call on him to resign. He could be primaried and losing a primary. Or a lot of people could say you know what, there's an election campaign coming up the way Comey did. That is the way to deal with this. Not with impeachment. Just let the American people decide. I don't think impeachment is a foregone conclusion. Even if the allegations in the final Mueller report are extremely serious.

LEMON: Juliette, you're the security expert. I want to follow up on something that Greg said earlier, that not one of these people reported this to the FBI. What kind of red flags does that raise to you?

KAYYEM: I think they were willing. So, this is what's important to remember. The FBI's investigation into Russian influence in the 2016 election was concerned with both campaigns, because of some Internet activity that they saw. And so their concern was that the Russians were going to take advantage of either the Trump or Clinton campaign. What ended up happening to their dismay obviously, as we've seen is that the Trump campaign was the only campaign that actually wanted it. None of these people -- not only did they not call the FBI. They actively engaged in it. Whether it's Donald Trump Jr. and the Trump Tower meeting. Whether it's the financial issues involved with Manafort and others and the President himself.

So either you believe that these 16 people are the biggest idiots in the world and had no idea that they were getting played or you believe this was -- the Russians could not believe how great this was. Because they found 16-plus people who were willing to play with them and they had something of course on Donald Trump, which is his financial desires regarding Trump Moscow. So, you know, it was a win- win for those two parties and a total loss for the American public.

[23:10:05] LEMON: Ryan, I know you want to get in, but I just want to get Greg in. Greg, this list includes two of Trump's children, his son-in-law, his long-time personal lawyer, campaign chairman. Is there any way that these meetings and conversations were happening without Trump's blessing?

MILLER: Well, I mean, it's hard to fathom that his inner circle and as you say his closest parts of his inner circle would do things that they thought might go against their father or father-in-law's wishes. I mean, we're still waiting for proof or evidence that he was actually in the loop on these meetings. It's hard to imagine that he wasn't. I know that the House Democrats and the intelligence committee are

really keen to speak again with Jared Kushner and with Donald Trump Jr. to ask that very question, to go back over this timeline about Donald Trump Jr.'s calls to a blacked-out number while he was, you know, negotiating this interaction with Russians at Trump tower, who was he calling, he claimed he couldn't remember. I mean, there are reasons to suspect that Trump was looped in on this and that is one of the big questions that we are waiting for Mueller or someone else to answer.

LEMON: Ryan, I'll get you on the other side. I've got to get to a break. Everybody stay with me. A source says alleged Russian spy Maria Butina has changed her plea and is now cooperating with federal prosecutors. What could she know?

[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Alleged Russian spy Maria Butina is now cooperating with federal prosecutors as part of the plea deal. She is admitting that she conspired with Russian government official -- a Russian government official to operate in the U.S. for Russia. Ryan, Juliette, and Greg are back with me. Every day there's something else. Greg, how significant is it that an alleged Russian spy is now cooperating with federal prosecutors?

MILLER: Well, it's a really remarkable development in many ways. I mean, all of the -- Robert Mueller has already indicted quite a number of Russian individuals, but they're beyond reach of the U.S. government. Nobody really believes that they will ever be brought to the United States and prosecuted. So here's somebody who has been working on behalf of the Kremlin and the United States for a number of years who's not only here, not only facing legal consequence, but actually prosecuting. It's quite an interesting development.

LEMON: Butina asked then candidate Trump a question at a 2015 campaign event. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARINA BUTINA, GUN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I'm visiting from Russia.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ah. Putin. Good friend of Obama, Putin. He likes Obama a lot. Go ahead.

BRUNE: If you will be elected as President, what will be your foreign politic especially in the relationships with my country and do you want to continue the politics of sanction that are damaging our both economy or you have any other ideas?

TRUMP: OK. Obama gets along with nobody. The whole world hates us. I know Putin. And I'll tell you what. We get along with Putin. I believe I would get along very nicely would Putin. OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, Ryan, I'm going to let you have a crack at it, because -- by the way, Butina was the first person he called on. Is that a coincidence?

LIZZA: I don't know. I mean, look, the Russians obviously were trying to penetrate our elections in every way possible, right. And some of the campaigns were very sophisticated as with the hacking and dumping campaigns and a lot of them just looked almost random. Like, is this Butina really a master spy? Someone who got up at a public event and asked Trump a question? If you look at the stuff that has come out today, it seems like she kind of bungled into this relationship with the Russian government and they were like all right, yes, go see whatever links you can get, right? She doesn't strike me as the greatest Russian spy ever to hit our soil, but that doesn't mean she didn't commit crimes.

I mean, with a lot of these people, I keep thinking of what deep throat said during Watergate to Woodward. You know, he said these are not very bright guys and things got out of hand. Right? So, I don't necessarily think we are looking at criminal geniuses, but you don't have to be a criminal genius to commit crimes.

LEMON: Are you talking about Butina or are you talking about the people (inaudible)?

LIZZA: That list that, you know, you put up there.

LEMON: Yes.

LIZZA: Look, Trump, I keep coming back to this. At that moment when he is talking about how great he gets along with Putin, he was trying to build a building in Moscow that would have made him millions and millions of dollars.

LEMON: But listen, even if you're not -- I don't know. Even if you don't - you cannot read the speed limit on a highway, let's just put it that way, I want to say not smart enough or whatever. Even if you're less than smart and you can't do that, you still get a ticket.

LIZZA: One hundred percent.

I'm saying, sometimes we think of this as this very complicated criminal conspiracy where everything was well thought out. To me, it looks like a bunch of not the brightest people in the world, but stupid people committing crimes are still criminals.

LEMON: But that is the defense, Juliette, in a way saying - I mean, we're getting a little far afield here saying, we just bumbled, we didn't know, we didn't know.

KAYYEM: I mean, I think -- I think two things. One is just to Ryan's point, one of the greatest things coming out of today was the reporting that Erickson, that is the boyfriend that she - the Republican operative boyfriend, literally writes down on a piece of paper, "how to respond to FSB," that is the intelligence agency in Russia, "offer of employment." He actually writes down, should I be -- you know, should I do treason for my country or not. So these are not the smartest people, but just to put it in context, the impact of it. While you know, there are lots of bumbling, lots of characters you

can't -- like it's not even you that can't imagine they're next to the President. Like, none of us have ever met people like this in our lives.

[23:20:00] I mean, this group of people are sort of not your typical people you meet in normal employment, but you know, obviously the impact of Putin's success here in the United States is not only sort of undermined our Democratic processes and led to these illegalities. Just look at the world today. I mean, look at France. Look at England. Look at you know, what is happening with this post-World War II order which has been undermined significantly by the fact that the U.S. is not checking Russia's aggression, either in Western Europe or in countries closer to Russia.

So Putin has sort of won this part. I have great confidence he doesn't win the war, but it has had an impact when you just look around the world right now in terms of the world order. He was able to destroy, because Trump was willing to play along with him.

LEMON: Yes. So, listen, I've got to say this. It's important to note that this was the first time that Trump mentioned a Russian sanction relief. We were talking about that response to Butina. And Greg, so let me ask you this. Butina also met with Don Jr. at an NRA event and socialized with former Trump campaign aide J.D. Gordon. Do you think there's any way to explain this access so close to the Trump campaign on multiple occasions?

MILLER: Her -- I think it was her handler, Torshin, who met with Don Jr. as well. You know, as Ryan said, this was just a multidirectional attempt by Russia to penetrate all parts of the American political landscape in 2016. And I would say that there's brazenness to this effort that is really mind-boggling in many ways.

I mean, you just showed footage of Butina popping up at a public event asking a question of the future President of the United States. I mean, you had to know that the Kremlin is really enjoying that moment back in Moscow. The attacks, the hack of the DNC was not all that sophisticated really.

And the Russians were buying, putting ads on Facebook and paying in rubles. I mean there's a sort of a brazen quality to this entire campaign that gets at, you know, there's some taunting that is going on here. They're not really too worried about covering their tracks. They're trying to make it known that they are messing with us and they are showing Russians for Vladimir Putin's benefit and Americans that we can be messed with.

LEMON: Greg, Ryan, Juliette, thank you for your time. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.

[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Democrats appear to be sharpening their knives as they prepare to regain control of the House. And sources tell CNN that Trump is concerned that impeachment is a quote, a real possibility. I want to bring in now Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell who sits on the House Judiciary Committee and is also a member of the House Intel Committee. Congressman, thank you for joining us.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL, (D), CALIFORNIA: Good evening, Don. Thanks for having me back.

LEMON: You said, we're hearing the President's worried tonight. Should he be?

SWALWELL: What is this guy just learning constitutional law for the first time? If you commit a bunch of abuses in office, you get a free pass? Is that what he thought? I mean, Don, that is crazy. The days of Presidential immunity are over. We're going to conduct fairer investigations than he deserves, but there's not going to be a Russia judgment here. We're going to put together an impenetrable case and if he crossed a red line he'll be held accountable, but first things first, we also think we can collaborate with him on immigration, on infrastructure, on the dream act, on the voting rights act. So there's a lot that is going to be happening in the next couple weeks.

LEMON: So for people who think oh, my gosh, they're ready now, their knives are sharpening and they wanted impeachment is all -- they're going to do it, what do you say?

SWALWELL: I say again, we're going to put together an impenetrable case and we're not going to be as reckless with the facts as he is.

LEMON: OK. All right. So, listen, the White House officials are telling CNN that they don't think campaign finance violation would bring bipartisan support for impeachment. Are they minimizing the crimes that have allegedly taken place?

SWALWELL: I see it as propensity evidence. And in the law that means that shows that maybe a prior bad act like paying off a porn star would show that he acted in similar ways in other situations. So I don't necessarily think we should go all in on that payoff, but I think it does show that this shadowy operator and the people around him probably did the same thing when it came to Russia, when it came to Saudi Arabia, when it came to China, and that is really where we should be looking.

LEMON: Can you imagine? I mean, you said paying off a porn star. This is hard to believe that is what we're talking about with the President of the United States, right?

SWALWELL: Yes, but I also think, Don, that looking at what happened with the Clinton impeachment trial and that he came out even stronger, we don't want to martyrize President Trump, especially when there's a lot more alarming conduct that actually affects people in their everyday lives that we should be looking to stop and intervene where we can.

LEMON: So, Congressman Jerry Nadler. I just want to play this. What he said about the SDNY prosecutor's allegation that Trump directed his attorney Michael Cohen, his fixer, to commit a felony by paying off two women over alleged affairs. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERROLD NADLER, (D) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: They would be impeachable offenses, whether they are important enough to justify an impeachment is a different question, but certainly they'd be impeachable offenses, because even though they were committed before the President became President, they were committed in the service of fraudulently obtaining the office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So obviously the allegations against the President haven't been proven, but if they are, do you agree with Congressman Nadler that they are impeachable offenses?

SWALWELL: I think that they're instructive as to the way he works. If this is all we have, I would say, we shouldn't hang our hat on that, but I think we should look at this in the light of -- this is probably how he conducted himself in his business and personal life. And so we should get his taxes, take an MRI to his finances. Understand if he is making decisions based on his financial interests rather than traditional American values.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I'll ask you a similar question. Same question, but a different way that I asked a moment ago. A lot of Democrats are eager to impeach the president but had no idea what the final report from the special counsel's office, what would it entail. Do you think that Democrats should stop all the impeachment talk until then?

SWALWELL: As it relates to Russia, we should wait for Bob Mueller's report. But we should still get his taxes. We should still see when it comes to the Jamal Khashoggi case which is happening in real time and we see his prior financial relationships with the Saudis and that's driving his decisions here, we should understand that.

And Don, we can't forget that he received $500 million loan from the Chinese during the same week that he eased sanctions on a Chinese company. So there's a lot to look at. A lot of financial entanglements he has. And again, the days of getting free passes on those are over.

LEMON: Congressman, where do you come down on a sitting president being indicted? Because you know there's back and forth, he can or he can't. Where do you come down with this?

SWALWELL: Well, I don't agree that he cannot, but if that's the DOJ policy, I think we should look at extending the statute of limitations if a DOJ policy prevents someone from being indicted. It should just pause until that person gets out of office. They shouldn't be able to escape being held accountable because they win re-election.

And Don, there's also an issue here that because the president may fear he's going to go to jail if he doesn't win re-election, he may be acting erratically as we get closer to the presidential election to try and save, you know, his own skin.

LEMON: Congressman, I want to play what the former FBI director, James Comey, said in front of a live audience at New York City's 92nd Street Y about the possibility of impeachment. He did this over the weekend. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: I hope Donald Trump is not removed from office by impeachment because it would let the country off the hook. And it would drive into the fabric of our nation a third of the people believing there was a coup. And we need a moment of inflection where we all get off the couch and say, that is not who we are, and in a landslide rid ourselves of this attack on our values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I think a lot of people feel that way. Do you think he has a point?

SWALWELL: He does have a point, Don. If I had my way, we would impeach him at ballot box and prove that democracy works. But we also have a rule of law. And no one's above the law, especially the president. And if he crossed clear bright red lines, he's going to have to be held accountable.

And it's going to be a tough choice for the nation and the Congress. But I think the best thing we can do is to just assure the American people we're going to do our job in conducting oversight and looking at what he's done and seek bipartisan buy-in if he's crossed the line.

LEMON: Congressman Swalwell, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Thanks, Don.

LEMON: New incidents of hate speech and violence throughout the country continuing a troubling trend. More about what's behind the increase of hate in America, next.

[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: New tonight, a jury is deliberating the sentence for James Fields. James Fields is the man who was found guilty on Friday in the death of 32-year-old Heather Heyer after he ran her over with his car. Fields was attending last year's "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville when things got ugly between white nationalists and counter-protesters.

During the protests, Fields got into his car and plowed through the counter-protesters at about 28 miles per hour, striking and killing Heather Heyer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(bleep)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That Nazi just drove into people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Heyer died from blunt force injuries to the torso. She suffered a number of major internal injuries. Her aorta was severed. She also had lacerations to her lungs and liver. The jury found Fields guilty on a number of counts, one of them being first-degree murder, which is punishable by up to life in prison.

Ultimately the judge in the case will decide Fields' sentence but will consider the jury's recommendation. Fields also faces 30 federal hate crimes charges in a separate case. Following the deadly violence in Charlottesville, President Trump infamously said this about what happened there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group -- excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Very fine people now. First-degree murder. Joining me now is Wes Lowery, national reporter for the Washington Post. Wes, good evening to you.

WESLEY LOWERY, NATIONAL REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Thanks for having me, Don.

LEMON: So obviously, nothing can be done to repair the damage done at Charlottesville, but do you think justice was served?

LOWERY: Certainly. Well, I think for Heather Heyer's family at least and for the other victims. You have to remember there were dozens of people who were injured. Heather Heyer was fortunately the only person who was killed, but there were dozens of people who were injured when James Fields plowed his car into those ralliers.

For those folks, they have received some measure of justice, but you can't imagine that this makes it much easier for Heather Heyer's family. And I think that for many Americans who are still scarred and traumatized by the idea even that there was a massive rally of Nazis in Charlottesville, Virginia and these outward displays of hatred, I mean, far-right violence that we've seen increasingly in recent years.

LEMON: Yeah, I don't think there's anything that can make it better for Heather Heyer's family and our thoughts go out to her. We can only imagine. We can only imagine. Wes, you know, the president said there were very fine people on both sides. But remember, it was just a few months ago, he started calling himself a nationalist. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They have a word. It sort of became old-fashioned. It's called a nationalist.

[23:40:00] And I say, really, we're not supposed to use that word. You know what I am? I'm a nationalist. OK? I'm a nationalist.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: I'm proud of our country, and I am a nationalist. It's a word that hasn't been used too much. Some people use it. But I'm very proud. I think it should be brought back.

Call me a nationalist if you'd like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So Wes, do you think the president takes hate and white nationalism seriously?

LOWERY: I think that time and time again, the president of the United States has shown an unwillingness to unequivocally denounce these far- right groups and their violence and their rhetoric. He has very often employed language that mirrors their own language. There's that line that Andrew Gillum used back in the Florida race about his then opponent where he said I'm not saying you're a racist but the racists think you're a racist.

LEMON: Right.

LOWERY: What the president has done time and time again, and not just the president, but going back even to the campaign trail, is employ the language of these far-right groups, white nationalist groups, racist groups, receiving the endorsements and the full-throated supports of people like David Duke and then pretending to not know who David Duke is.

And so what we know is that, you know, I obviously don't know the president personally and can't speak to whether or not, you know, he actually personally believes any of these things, but what I do know is he's played coy and he's played cute with these groups and he certainly hasn't decried their support and pushed it away. In fact, he's done things that many people, many experts think have only emboldened these groups.

LEMON: Yeah. Wes, let's talk about some more incidents. There's a number we can talk about. Authorities in Pittsburgh investigating anti-Semitic pamphlets that were found around Pittsburgh, including Squirrel Hill. That's where the 11 members of the Tree of Life synagogue were gunned down back in October.

And then in Ohio today, the FBI announced the arrest of a man allegedly planning attacks against synagogues. Here's what the ADL found. A 57 percent increase in anti-Semitic incidents in 2017. It is looking like 2018 was not much better than that.

LOWERY: Of course. And by most measures, not only the ADL's measures, the SPLC's measures, the global terrorism task force measures, by most measures, by every measure we can find, there's an increase in this right-wing violence and far-right violence, whether that's anti- Semitic or there's anti-LGBT, anti-black, anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant. And what the experts believe is that violence correlates to the coarsening of our political rhetoric specifically on the political right, that we saw a massive increase in the militia groups and far- right groups after the election of Barack Obama.

But these violent attacks like we saw in Pittsburgh and in Kentucky and like we saw even here at CNN with the bombs being mailed in just a few weeks ago, that the way that our political rhetoric has coarsened has only emboldened these types of people, and that statements like the president's where he says there are very fine people on both sides of Charlottesville.

What the experts believe is that those types of statements certainly don't discourage far right-wing violence or Nazi violence or anti- Semitic violence, in fact, that they perhaps encourage that type of violence.

LEMON: Wes Lowery, always appreciate your time and your thoughts. Thank you very much.

LOWERY: Of course. Thanks for having me, Don.

LEMON: Time magazine announcing its person of the year in just hours. Two people on the short list, President Trump and Robert Mueller. Who is going to get the top spot?

[23:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Time magazine set to name its 2018 Person of the Year tomorrow morning. The title is about the influence of the person or persons over the past year. It's not necessarily an honor. This year's short list includes President Trump, but it also includes Robert Mueller, the separated families, and the murdered Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

President Trump loves the magazine and has a fascination with Time since his very first appearance back in 1989 with a somewhat flattering nod to his brashness. Those covers have been significantly more critical since he was elected president. His immigration policies, portrayal of being in over his head, and Trump being portrayed as a monarch have probably not gone over well.

I don't know. That's the first one he did. Look at those covers. The president is so enraptured with Time. At least five of the Trump Organization golf clubs in America and Europe have displayed this. It's a fake cover with the headline "Donald Trump the apprentice is a television smash." That is not a real cover. It is a fake. The magazine even asked for the fake covers to be taken down. What else is fake? This claim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think I was on the cover of Time magazine twice in my life and like six times in the last number of months.

(APPLAUSE) TRUMP: So you tell me, which is more important, real estate or politics? OK? That's the way -- is that true? I have six for politics and I have two for real estate, or whatever they put me on for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Nope. Nope, nope, nope. At that time, it had just been once, not six. So last year, Trump claimed he was on the verge of getting the honor back-to-back. He also said Time gave him the heads up beforehand. That turned out to be at least a case of maybe a misunderstanding or at worst, the worst case is a lie.

The magazine said they don't comment on who gets picked until the cover is published. It's part of a sort of annual tradition for the president, from lobbying for his inclusion to claiming others said he should be, you know -- should be -- or criticizing Time for the other people chosen. The president has been talking and tweeting about this for years. So what else is new?

So here's a question. Could 'individual one' be named the person of the year? I want to bring in now Brian Stelter and Elaina Plott, the White House correspondent for "The Atlantic." Good evening.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Good evening.

LEMON: So, let's see. He last won Person of the Year 2016.

STELTER: Yeah.

LEMON: Really wanted to win it back-to-back years. It didn't happen.

[23:50:00] So what is -- I don't know. Is he going to win?

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Make your case.

STELTER: I think he's the man --

LEMON: Do you think he's going to win?

STELTER: I think it is Trump. Here's why. The Time's Person of the Year marks the moment where we are as a country and as a society. And like it or not, Trump is the sun. Everything else revolves around him. Politics and culture, all of the above. Some people love him, some hate him. Some think he's crazy like a fox, others think he's just crazy.

You go to a dinner party or something, people are telling you, Trump is mentally ill. They will say, he's a hero, he's a villain. People are arguing about Trump two years in. Even though the midterms swing in the Democrat's favor, it was all about Trump.

LEMON: Yeah.

STELTER: So I think the Time editors, looking at all the options, they are going to end up with the obvious option. The reason I might be wrong, though --

LEMON: Yeah.

STELTER: He did win in 2016. It's only been two years. The difference now is he wouldn't be honored for winning the election. This would be a recognition of the scandals and problems that are plaguing this president.

LEMON: You may be onto something because, you know, I go to a party or something, try to talk to me about Trump.

STELTER: Try not to --

LEMON: No, I want you to do it. Try to talk to me about Trump.

STELTER: What do you mean? What do you think of President Trump, Don?

LEMON: Oh, you know what, hey, how's your drink?

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: It's good to see you.

STELTER: You try to change the subject.

LEMON: All the time, we have been -- in my household, we have a no talk about Trump policies --

STELTER: Oh, really?

LEMON: Yeah. Because that's all people want to talk about. I'm out to dinner, people come up to us. My boyfriend and I are out, they come up to us. So we say, no Trump talk. How's the weather? Elaina, your team Mueller for Person of the Year. Why is that?

ELAINA PLOTT, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So, as all reporters know well, there haven't been a ton of consistencies in the Trump administration. Save for, I think, it's reaction to Mueller and what he might find in his Russia probe, the final report.

I don't know if you guys saw that Sean Spicer the other day tweeted and quickly deleted a link to a predicted -- a kind of vetting pool for how many times Trump would tweet about Robert Mueller before the end of the year. And I think if you can say that you occupy that much space in the leader of the free world, it's a pretty powerful position to be in.

LEMON: Yeah --

STELTER: I'm thinking Trump occupies everyone else's brain space, but Mueller is the one that occupies Trump's brain.

PLOTT: Exactly.

LEMON: Ah, see --

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

STELTER: -- I think Mueller is going to be next year's Time Person of the Year. There is so much we still don't know about Mueller's probe. That's why I think he's going to be next year's winner.

LEMON: Brian, admit it when you're wrong because think about this. She's right, occupies the space and people talk about the Russia investigation, and even on Trump's favorite channels, they're always talking about oh, it's a witch hunt or whatever, that's what he talks about. It's most of the things he tweets about.

STELTER: That is true. It makes you wonder why is he so worried. An innocent man doesn't worry this much --

LEMON: Yeah.

STELTER: -- about an investigation. If it's not Trump or Mueller, I think it should be the year of the woman, right? Women won --

LEMON: Let me go over --

STELTER: -- in 2018. The problem, of course, it shouldn't be just one year of the women.

LEMON: Let me go over this. How much time do we have? OK, so we have Donald Trump.

STELTER: Right.

LEMON: I think it's an important one, the separated families. Let me go to Elaina first. What do you think, Elaina?

PLOTT: I think it's been one of the major cultural touchstones of the year specifically because it ties into an issue such as immigration and potentially demonization of other races that really dominated the narrative of Donald Trump's campaign. So the issue of separated families I think really shows the kind of fruition of what people really feared most perhaps from Trump's campaign.

LEMON: Other people we have -- we put it up. We've got Vladimir Putin. That's up there. Ryan Coogler, Christine Blasey Ford. We mentioned Jamal Khashoggi. March for Our Lives activists. I think they stand a chance. Moon Jae-in, the Korean president. Meghan Markle. I think that separated families and March for Our Lives activists also have a chance. Go ahead, Brian.

STELTER: The reason why the Parkland students and the other gun control advocates stand a chance is because they are working on a long-term solution. You know, they thought about the ballot box this year, but they are also thinking about 2020 and beyond. And there was something inspiring about the way young people were motivated this year to take action.

Last year, Time went with the Me Too Movement, the silence breakers. The women in many different fields who came forward and spoke out against harassment. Well, I think we saw equally powerful this year were these testimonies both from young people and from parents of gun violence victims and it would be nice to see those elevated to a national platform like this cover.

LEMON: Go ahead. Do you want to talk about that?

PLOTT: I just think that Brian is completely right and I think one of the reasons they haven been elevated to that national platform is because of this 24/7 news cycle. You know, it really is such a shame that we talk about people like the Parkland activists only in the aftermath of the mass shooting and then it fades into the background.

So, in many ways, I think putting the Parkland activists on the cover would, you know, restart the conversation that not only needs to start again but continue for much longer than it has.

[23:55:04] LEMON: Yeah. So, let's see what happens if --

STELTER: Well, I'm sticking with Trump.

LEMON: No, no. What happens if -- OK, let's say it is him, they'll say of course they got it right, but if it doesn't, it should have been me.

STELTER: That's the thing. Two years ago, he said this is an incredible honor. And it's true what you were saying before, he does care about the cover of Time magazine.

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: In the same way he cares about CNN and the New York Times and SNL. But, if he's on the cover tomorrow, it's not an honor this year. So much has changed in the past two years. If he's on the cover tomorrow, it's because of the scandals and controversies that plague his administration. The fact that it's hard for him to even find a chief of staff. That's why he'll be on the cover if he is tomorrow.

LEMON: OK. Most of the people on the short list are connected to political fault lines.

STELTER: Yeah.

LEMON: Time ran a readers' poll, K-Pop band BTS.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I have no -- I guess I'm not --

(LAUGHTER)

STELTER: That's all about passion.

LEMON: OK.

STELTER: That shows you who has the most passionate fans in the world. Don, your fans are a close second.

LEMON: I know. I got to go but it will be an honor to be on that. I've been on there 15 times. You know that.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it. Thanks for watching.

PLOTT: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Our coverage continues.

[24:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)