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Don Lemon Tonight
Possible Government Shutdown if Trump Doesn't Get Funding for the Wall; Mike Flynn Asks for a Plea Deal; President Trump, Chuck Schumer, and Nancy Pelosi Spar at an Oval Office Meeting. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 11, 2018 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: But it will also make the administration have to do something about the posture towards Saudi Arabia if Bernie Sanders can get the vote, let alone, a veto proof majority that would take both houses. We'll see.
That's all for us tonight. Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right now. Big night.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It is.
CUOMO: Flynn dropping that 178 pages on us.
LEMON: It is. It's a big story. Even the Khashoggi story and the Time magazine story, big story, but there's so much news, I hate that it gets pushed down. But I mean, look at what happened today. I saw you talking to the guys earlier -- by the way, you can tell, you can see how I look, right?
CUOMO: You look fine. Will you stop with that? Your looks are not your problem.
LEMON: I call them tide pods, but it's the Theraflu little pods that you put. They're amazing.
CUOMO: Well, look. I mean, that's also the problem. When you have work done, Don, and then you get sick, you know, sometimes it does weird things to your face. We talked about this before that weird weekend you had in Mexico.
LEMON: No, but what I was saying is that I saw you talking to Angela.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: And Scott. And you were talking about the name that we came up and it was--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: You came up with it. In fairness, my name was not good. I had 'Pelumer,' and 'Shelosi." And you were like, 'Nanchuck' is great because it's like what Bruce Lee would do with those things what happened in that room.
LEMON: I said that today because as I was laying, taking the Theraflu day and night time this morning as I was lying in bed or this afternoon and I saw this on television. And just objectively speaking, I was like, my gosh, Nancy Pelosi is a boss. I mean, she handled herself amazingly. A lot of people don't like Nancy Pelosi. I'm sure Democrats are going all across the country tonight, thank God for Nancy Pelosi.
CUOMO: Well, I tell you it's amazing what a few weeks' difference can make. You know what I mean?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Like she had all those people bringing the hate parade on her about whether or not she should be speaker. When I interviewed her the day after the election, she was like, I'm going to be speaker.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You'll see.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And sure enough she really held her own in that room today without it being too nasty. I actually think the president was right to say, you know, I do believe he got 'Nanchucked' by the two of them.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He didn't see that coming. They weren't there to be mean and bitter. I think that's important too.
LEMON: Was that the vice president or was that Madison--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Madame Tussauds?
LEMON: Madame Tussauds. I'm out of it. It's going to be interesting watching me for the next two hours while--
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Always is.
LEMON: -- on medication. Yes. I thought was that a wax figure or what. He just sat there.
CUOMO: I thought at one point he was going to pull a plant in front of him. I've seen all the memes online. But he didn't say a thing in there.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I was waiting for the president to look over and be like, hey, help me out.
LEMON: Yes, can you help me. Hey, brother, help me out of here.
CUOMO: Hey, what's up, man. He looks at him. He's like this.
LEMON: Don't get me involved in this. I'm not here. I'm not here. I have to say, though, you're right. Just because the president was loud, it doesn't mean that he put on a good performance. I've been listening to conservative and watching conservative media all day. They've been trying to spin it. No matter how much they spin it, I'm telling you he got outflanked today.
And basically, what Nancy Pelosi told him is that you don't really know how to govern. You don't know what you're talking about, and was trying to save him the embarrassment of doing it on television in the Oval Office in front of everyone.
CUOMO: Well, Schumer kept saying, let's go and negotiate. Let's go and negotiate.
LEMON: Come on, do it.
CUOMO: He wanted to stay there. But I would be careful about this. The president obviously believes that a shutdown is a win.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Because the base will believe the border wall was worth fighting on. The Democrats therefore need to do more than be strong. They have to be smart, and they have to expose whether or not that is true or false.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Are we a wall away from safety? If not, what would they do that would indeed make the system better? That's the hurdle for ultimate success.
LEMON: Legislating, when he doesn't have the house -- he may think that's going to be his biggest obstacle and the investigations, but there's something I'm going to talk about in my opening remarks that's going to be his biggest obstacle. Maybe he's realized it, or maybe he doesn't. But I think he's in for a rude awakening.
CUOMO: I like the tease. I'll be watching.
LEMON: Thank you, Chris. Sorry for that, everyone. I'm apologizing in advance.
CUOMO: You are the best. A lot of people would stay home, not you.
LEMON: Tell Bella to feel better as well.
CUOMO: I know. I don't know how she got it. She's so sympathetic to your thoughts, you got sick, she got sick.
LEMON: I'll see you soon.
CUOMO: See you later. Feel better, buddy.
LEMON: Thank you very much.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
So, OK, please watch this, everyone, all right? Donald Trump's over the top reality show TV presidency was on full display today. I hope you saw it. If you didn't, I'm going to play a lot of it for you, most of it. And the spectacle of this oval office meeting with top congressional Democrats Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, likely a preview of the president's relationship with the new Congress that convenes in January.
It's a harbinger of things to come, with Democrats taking control of the House. Pelosi expected to be the next speaker. Schumer, he's emboldened now to flex his muscles in the Senate. And the gloves are already off.
[22:04:56] President Trump is still a political novice. Full display today. A political novice. Pelosi and Schumer, politicians for decades, debating and negotiating. Today they outflanked him, boxed him into a corner while talking about avoiding a threatened government shutdown over funding for his border wall.
And not surprisingly, the president started his remarks with, lies, lies, and more lies. First among them--
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tremendous amounts of wall have already been built, and a lot of -- a lot of wall when you include the renovation of existing fences and walls. We renovated a tremendous amount, and we've done a lot of work. In San Diego we're building new walls right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Nope, nope, nope. He says that over and over, but he's flat- out wrong. Sections of border fencing are being repaired and replaced. With more than $1 billion in funds that Congress has already approved. Fencing sections being replaced. In San Diego, Customs and Border Protection is replacing 14 miles. Replacing 14 miles of a 46-mile border fence with a stronger one. But only about half has been replaced so far. And then he said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have terrorists. We caught 10 terrorists over the last very short period of time. Ten. These are very serious people. Our border agents, all of our law enforcement has been incredible, what they've done. But we caught 10 terrorists. These are people that were looking to do harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Nope, nope, nope, nope again. Evidence just simply doesn't back up his statement. The Department of Homeland Security does not have any specific information about 10 recent arrests. But instead, here's what they did. They referred CNN to a previously issued statistic that is not specific to the southern border.
It refers instead to overall efforts around the world to prevent people who are on terror watch lists from entering the U.S. around the world. But that includes border entry points and efforts to obtain visas from embassies and consulates. Lots of lies here. Then another misleading statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: People with tremendous medical difficulty and medical problems are pouring in. In many cases, it's contagious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Nope, nope, nope, nope. Again, nope. Health experts say that that claim is, at minimal -- at best, it's mostly not true. The migrants who were making their way up through Mexico have been stopped if they reach the U.S. border at all. They're not pouring in as he says. And the threats they face are to their own health, stemming from their difficult circumstances.
The president also claims the House will pass his border security plan with funding for the wall. Nancy Pelosi checked him on that statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The fact is you do not have the votes in the House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Pelosi and Schumer played the president like real pros, with cameras rolling, on live TV, in the Oval Office of all places, branding any shutdown a Trump shutdown. Listen as Trump walked right into their trap, right into it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: One thing I think we can agree on is we shouldn't shut down the government over a dispute, and you want to shut it down. You keep talking about it.
TRUMP: The last time, Chuck, you shut it down.
SCHUMER: No, no, no.
TRUMP: And then you opened it up very quickly. I don't want to do what you did.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHUMER: Twenty times you have called for I will shut down the government if I don't get my wall. None of us have said--
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You want to know something? OK. You want to put that on mine.
SCHUMER: You've said it.
TRUMP: I'll take it.
SCHUMER: OK, good.
TRUMP: You know what I'll say? Yes. If we don't get what we want one way or the other, whether it's through you, through the military, through anything you want to call, I will shut down the government.
SCHUMER: OK. Fair enough.
TRUMP: And I am proud--
(CROSSTALK)
SCHUMER: We disagree. We disagree.
TRUMP: And I will tell you what. I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck, because the people of this country don't want criminals and people that have lots of problems and drugs pouring into our country. So, I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle.
SCHUMER: Good.
TRUMP: And I'm going to shut it down for border security.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHUMER: But we believe you shouldn't shut it down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The Trump shutdown. They've already branded it. Kept doing it today. Let's play the president's key words again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I am proud to shut down the government for border security. I am proud to shut down the government for border security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Got to take him at his word. A short time later the president doubling down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:01] TRUMP: I don't mind having the issue of border security on my side. If we have to close down the country over border security, I actually like that in terms of an issue. If we close down the country, I will take it because we're closing it down for border security, and I think I win that every single time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, here's the thing, all right? Seriously. Somebody in the White House needs to remind the president of the pottery barn analogy. You break it, you own it.
Americans hate government shutdowns. They are disruptive, and they confirm the feelings many Americans have about Washington, that it just doesn't work and it doesn't care about them and their needs at all. They can't get along. They can't get anything done.
And then on the White House driveway after the Oval Office meeting, Pelosi and Schumer hammering away at the president's statements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: He has the power to keep government open. Instead he has admitted in this meeting that he will take responsibility. The Trump shutdown is something that can be avoided.
SCHUMER: This Trump shutdown, this temper tantrum that he seems to throw will not get him his wall, and it will hurt a lot of people because he will cause a shutdown. He admitted he wanted a shutdown. It's hard to believe that he would want that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The Trump shutdown. Did you hear that? By the way, did you see in the Oval Office when she said the Trump shutdown, he stopped for a minute and said did you call it -- what did you--
And she just kept moving. Like, Yes, I called it the Trump shutdown. What about it? That's what it is. Lies, lies, and more lies.
"The Washington Post" has done a lot of fact-checking of this president and his cronies. Not an easy task by the way. Trust me, I know. We try to keep up with it every single day on this program.
Today before the gaggle, "The Post" even releasing what they call the bottomless Pinocchio, lies that he continues to tell and doubles down on. It's what us regular folk call whoppers. You know, that was a whopper. I don't mean the Burger King one. I mean the lies, like a giant lie which you just can't put in tell, a whopper.
Surely "The Washington Post" has some revising to do after this. OK. So, I told Chris that maybe he thinks that the investigation and legislating is going to be the tough thing. Let me tell you what's going to be really tough for this president, who loves the spotlight. He loves attention, OK? Maybe he does, but I don't think he realizes that he no longer exclusively holds the microphone or the podium or the news cycle. He's got to share it with Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats. If Nancy Pelosi calls a press conference, everyone will come. Everyone
will come. If he holds a press conference, if he gives a gaggle, if he is at a rally and he tells lies, Nancy Pelosi will say, I'm holding a press conference, and every single news outlet will show up and run it on television. Fact-checking in real-time from one of his biggest nemesis besides Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, that is. Can fact- check his lies almost in real-time.
She did it in real-time today. As Chuck Schumer said today, Mr. President, elections have consequences. All those lies you have told at rallies and in interviews are coming home to roost. The chickens are coming home to roost. That would be a smart strategy for the Democrats. Facts first.
A lot to get to tonight including Michael Flynn asking a federal judge to spare him prison time for lying to investigators. More lies. And the president dismissing his team's many contacts with Russians during the campaign and transition period as peanut stuff.
Analysis from Jack Quinn and Garrett Graff, next.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, here's our breaking news right now. President Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, asking a federal judge to spare him from prison time for lying to investigators about contacts with Russia's former ambassador to the U.S.
Let's bring in now our Senior Justice Correspondent, Evan Perez.
OK, Evan. It seems it always revolves around a lie with this administration. What else are you learning from the sentencing memo? By the way, it is a long one.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It is a long one, Don. And you'll remember that Robert Mueller, the special counsel, had filed paperwork earlier in court that said that Michael Flynn had provided substantial assistance to this investigation.
And so, Michael Flynn and his lawyers are simply responding to that, saying we agree essentially. But they also describe a little bit about what went down back in early 2017. You'll remember that this is an accusation that Michael Flynn lied early on. He was just in the administration for just a couple weeks, and he lied to the FBI when they were asking him about his contacts with the Russian ambassador, Sergey Kislyak, during the transition.
And so, here's a little bit of what's in the memo. It says, quote, "prior to the FBI's interview of General Flynn, Mr. McCabe -- that's Andy McCabe, the former deputy director of the FBI -- and other FBI officials decided that the agents would not warn Flynn that it was a crime to lie during an FBI interview because they wanted Flynn to be relaxed. And they were concerned that giving the warnings might adversely affect the rapport, one of the agents reported."
This is the lawyers describing a little bit about what exactly happened when the FBI showed up at the White House. You'll remember, Don, that they did not call the White House counsel's office. They didn't even tell the Justice Department that they were going over there, and they wanted to see how Michael Flynn would behave during this interview.
Later on, during this investigation, don, they learned that -- they established that Don -- that Michael Flynn had failed to register as a foreign agent for work that he was doing for the Turkish government. So, there were multiple problems beyond just the lying.
LEMON: Yes.
PEREZ: But in the end, Don, it's the lying that has gotten him into this problem.
LEMON: All the best people. Let's see. They went Peter Strzok and other FBI agents visited Flynn in his office in the West Wing of January 24, 2017 when he first made the false statements. He did not have an attorney with him at that time and was not warned that he could be prosecuted from making false statements as the memo said on Tuesday night.
So, he was with -- why does these people meeting and speaking to agents without attorneys or recommendation.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:20:02] PEREZ: Right.
LEMON: Like, what, I won't even go to H.R. without a representative.
PEREZ: No kidding, right.
LEMON: So why would they meet with an attorneys or FBI agents.
PEREZ: Right. No, exactly. And look, I think what it was and the memo describes a little bit about how Michael Flynn essentially welcomed the FBI agents. He thought he was in a good mood and he thoughts, essentially, he was going to be buddies with these guys and then it ended up being a big problem for him.
It really goes to show you a little bit about how Michael Flynn perceived himself early in this administration, you now, given the fact that he served in the military's lieutenant general in the army, and you know, was used to sort of this rapport with law enforcement. Certainly, a lot of them are our fellow conservatives.
And here he is, he ends up on the wrong side of the FBI.
LEMON: Yes. Always a pleasure. Thank you, Evan.
PEREZ: Great to see you, Don.
LEMON: I appreciate it. Let's discuss--
(CROSSTALK) PEREZ: Be well.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Let's discuss now with Jack Quinn and Garrett Graff. He is the author of the book "The Threat Matrix: Inside Robert Mueller's FBI and the War on Global Terror."
Gentlemen, good evening to you. I'm so glad that you could join me.
Garrett, while would Flynn view the FBI as allies?
GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, remember, he's coming out of the intelligence community. He was the former director of the defense intelligence agency, longtime intelligence officer had worked closely with the FBI in the intelligence community during post at places like the office of the director of national intelligence.
And he was sort of thinking that everyone was on the same side here which makes it is in some ways even more inconceivable that he lie in the way that he did, you know. If he did in fact think that the conversations that he had were totally innocuous why mislead them if he felt that they were totally approved at the levels that they should be. Why did he feel it necessary to mislead the bureau when they came in to talk with him about it?
And remember, this really sets in motion a whole series of events. I mean, in some ways this lie becomes the original sin that touches off so much of what we saw unfold over the course of the spring of 2017 as that lie and the subsequent investigation, you know, is what Donald Trump asked Jim Comey to see if he can see his way past the -- and let Mike Flynn go.
LEMON: Yes.
GRAFF: And then ultimately ends up firing Comey, which is what forces Rod Rosenstein to appoint Robert Mueller. You know, if this sort of one interview had gone a little bit differently the world might look very, very different to the president.
LEMON: Well, you lay out a sort of good time line there. And Jack, Flynn says that he continued to cooperate even after the controversy with Peter Strzok went public. Peter Strzok was one of the agents who interviewed him. Give me your read on this.
JACK QUINN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The fact that he interviewed him?
LEMON: Yes. On all of this. Give me your read on all of this.
QUINN: Well, you know, the other question that could have been included in Garrett's excellent opening was why did Michael Flynn think he could have conversations with people like the Russian ambassador without being heard, without that getting back to the United States intelligence?
This is part of another bizarre pattern of secrecy, which leads to a whole bunch of lies. I mean, Michael Flynn thinks he can talk to the Russian ambassador about the easing of sanctions and that United States intelligence is not intelligent enough to know about that.
LEMON: Well, he didn't think he was going to get caught. I mean, isn't that the simple answer? He didn't think he was going to get caught or he thought he could be above the law--
(CROSSTALK)
QUINN: Well, you know--
LEMON: -- or he could outsmart--
QUINN: That might -- that might be a good explanation for the guy driving the cab over here to CNN, but it's not for somebody who ran the defense intelligence agency. I mean, he should know that our eyes and ears, that is to say, the United States' eyes and ears are on people like the Russian ambassador. It's akin to, you know, the Trump family thinking that they could--
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But you don't think that's entitlement or arrogance? Because even with all of that, you talk about his resume. He was a conspiracy theorist.
QUINN: Well, I understand that.
LEMON: He did the lock her up thing. Just because you ran an agency doesn't mean that you're always--
QUINN: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: -- with it. It doesn't mean you can't be arrogant.
QUINN: Clearly not. I mean, you know, the president's son-in-law thought that he could establish a back channel, which is a polite term for having private conversations that the United States of America can't hear.
LEMON: Yes.
QUINN: With the Russian ambassador.
LEMON: It's all so shady. I got to get to the break. You guys will come back. So, stay with me.
GRAFF: You bet.
[22:24:55] LEMON: Peanut stuff. Peanut stuff. That is how the president is describing the multiple people who worked on his campaign and his transition who had contacts with Russians. We'll discuss that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: In an interview tonight with Reuters, the president dismissed team Trump's contacts with Russians as, quote, "peanut stuff."
CNN has counted 16 Trump associates who had contacts with Russians during the 2016 campaign and the presidential transition period. Sixteen, count them. That's our count.
Back with me now, Jack Quinn and Garrett Graff. There could be more. There could be more. Garrett, what do you think of the Trump campaign's with Russia? Just peanut stuff?
GRAFF: Definitely not peanut stuff and definitely getting more suspicious, particularly after the filings that we saw last week of Russians coming up to offer, quote, unquote, "political synergy to the Trump campaign and Michael Cohen."
And I think sort of you actually touched on something I want to highlight right there, which is it's incredible that we continue to learn about new approaches by new Russians to the Trump campaign, to Trump associates, to business partners.
I mean, this is -- it seems increasingly clear that this was a multi- pronged, long-running intelligence operation by a series of Russian cutouts to penetrate and befriend an aide and test the willingness of the Trump campaign to accept the help. In some ways, that is the most clear thing that we see unfolding over the course of this 2016.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:30:03] LEMON: You think they knew? You think the Trump folks knew or they were being played?
GRAFF: Well, so that's the thing that we just don't know yet, is the extent to which the Trump campaign was actively involved in this conspiracy, or was simply willing to accept the help wherever it was coming from. And that is something that, you know, should not be lost on this. This is approaching, as I said in a piece earlier this week, the worst-case scenario that we could have for the United States.
That this was a case where a foreign power, a foreign adversary was -- had leverage over the head of state of the United States, because they knew that the President had been lying about their activities.
LEMON: Jack, let's talk about the 16 people, OK, who had contacts with the Trump -- I mean with the Russians. The list includes onetime campaign chairman, his onetime campaign chairman, the President's son, his daughter, his son-in-law, his personal attorney. And we're talking about possible contact with a foreign adversary with people very close to the President.
QUINN: His campaign manager.
LEMON: Yeah.
QUINN: You go on and on. And I think -- I don't want to end this conversation without making the point that what I think Mr. Mueller is about the business of doing right now is determining or perhaps documenting that there were connections between Trump politics and Trump business. And that, I think, is perhaps the really precarious place for the President...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Why is that significant?
QUINN: Well, because look. If there were reasons why the Trump Tower in Moscow, the ambition to build a tower in Moscow coincided in time and in strategy with the decision to go easy on Russia in the GOP, for the Republican platform over sanctions that had been applied as a result of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, you know, I think that that linkage would be really, really problematic for the President.
LEMON: Got it.
QUINN: I can't imagine a worse problem for the President.
LEMON: Hey, Garrett. So listen. I want to bring in the Michael Flynn stuff here because the President weighed in on Michael Flynn -- Michael Cohen, excuse me, Michael Cohen. The hush money payments made to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. He said, number one, it wasn't a campaign contribution. If it were, it's only civil.
And even if it's only civil, there was no violation based on what we did, OK? It sounds like he's denying -- you know, that it was even a crime, but then also admitting it's a crime. I mean but just a minor crime.
GRAFF: Well, so this is exactly the same evolution that we see in a lot of areas with the President in denials around all of these scandals, where he starts off by saying it never happened at all. Then he begins to say, if it did happen, it wasn't that big of a deal. Then he says, well, it definitely did happen, but it's peanut stuff. And that's simply not true.
I mean what you -- what the documents laid out on Friday in the Cohen sentencing was a very detailed, advanced conspiracy to cover up and shield these payments from transparency and scrutiny that -- you know truthfully, yes, many campaigns get hit by campaign finance violations. It is often settled with civil fines. Those are bookkeeping errors. Those are sort of problems that accountants have of misfiling something or misunderstanding something or miscounting something.
This was something where they went out of their way to create shell companies, then went out of their way to create false legal expenses. There was no way that the people involved in this didn't know what they were doing was criminal.
QUINN: (Inaudible)
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I got to go, Jack. I got to go.
QUINN: The southern district thinks they're crimes. LEMON: Thank you very much. I appreciate both of you. Today's must-
see Oval Office meeting ending with Trump taking responsibility for a possible government shutdown next week. We've got that for you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:35:00] LEMON: So the fireworks on full display, and what a spectacle it was as President Trump opens his Oval Office visit with Chuck and Nancy, the President calling it transparency and describing his 16-minute back and forth with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer as a friendly meeting. This as he repeatedly claims he is willing to own a government shutdown if Congress can't find the money to pay for his border wall.
Let's discuss now. Mike Shields is here, Ana Navarro, and Bakari Sellers. Good evening.
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good evening.
LEMON: I have named it man-Chuck. Did you guys watch that today? That was the best thing on television, the best thing. So here's what he tweeted out of the Oval Office, OK, out of that meeting, Ana, you first. Oh, my God, are you guys watching this? The Nancy Chuck -- you tweeted and Donald variety show is going to be lit, you guys, popcorn and wine emojis. Like I said on my take this was a reality show (Inaudible). No, you didn't.
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, please, play it again, baby. Play it again on a loop. I could see that stuff all day. It is the most entertaining piece of video I have seen on TV since Teresa flipped over the table in the Real Housewives a few years ago.
LEMON: We need more of that, don't you think? I would like to see more of it actually, and not just from the President but from all of our lawmakers.
[22:39:53] NAVARRO: Look. I think it's -- I think we did see transparency. We also saw that it's the beginning of a new political reality for Donald Trump. Basically, Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan have been his backup singers for the last two years, nodding and going ahead and, you know, kind of humming along to whatever tune he's singing and whatever tone he's setting.
He has met his match and, you know, I think this was a very good day frankly for Nancy Pelosi, who I am not a fan of. But what you saw today is nobody puts Nancy in the corner.
LEMON: Yeah.
NAVARRO: And you're seeing the effects of that today. She's about to get the deal to get the votes from, you know, the rebel caucus in the Democratic Party, who was not giving her the votes to become Speaker.
LEMON: She brought experience and she brought facts. So listen, Mike, he is the President, right? He says he will gladly take the blame for the shutdown if he doesn't get what he wants on border security. Do you think that was a misfire or do you think it was good?
SHIELDS: No. I think it was good. And look, I mean we want politicians that stand on principle and stand up for what they believe in. He has campaigned at every turn saying that he wants border security. And I think, you know, most of the time our construct is, oh, my gosh, you don't want to shut down. Who's going to get blamed for the shutdown?
When you suddenly remove that leverage and someone is like I don't want to care about that, that's going to be a two-week story, a one- week story. He -- you know The President knows he's going to change the narrative about 85 times in the next two weeks. What he wants is a 2020 construct, which is one of these people is very serious about border security, stopping drugs and illegals from coming over the border.
The other party is not. And that's what he's trying to do, and he achieved that today.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Why do you say that? I have never heard a Democrat say that they didn't want to stop illegal -- I have never heard a Democrat say that they wanted open borders. But I hear that talking point all the time. The President tried that talking point in the Oval Office today. And Nancy Pelosi checked him at every turn. Listen. I understand you want transparency. We want to see governing happening in front of us.
But when the President comes with a whole thing of lies that I laid out, why would he -- she is exposing his lies.
SHIELDS: Well, look. I think that first of all, everyone is going to take away from this what they want, right? I think if you're focused specifically on details of, you know, what type of persons coming over the border, I personally wouldn't advise the President to do that. Because I think he's already got a winning argument.
But Democrats are going to seize on that and say he's saying all these things that aren't true. Conservatives are going to say, wait a minute. He's actually sticking by what he said he would do. And I will tell you that in the suburbs, which matters, this is a 2020 issue that plays to Republicans. This helps us in the suburbs.
Border security and safety is the way that we want to talk about this issue. So the larger picture is something that benefits us.
LEMON: Border security and safety, but that doesn't mean the wall. The wall does not mean border security and safety.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Listen.
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But it also doesn't...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let Bakari jump in.
SELLERS: But it also doesn't work. I mean this theory that somehow it works in the suburbs, I think we just proved that wrong back in November. You had individuals running ads on MS-13, especially right in South Carolina in Congressional District 1. And you had Donald Trump raising all this hell about a caravan that was 1,000 miles away.
And it just turned voters completely off. So number one, that's not true. And dealing in the facts of this, we know that the most drugs actually come into this country through legal ports of entry. That should be something that's said. And we also know that the vast majority of people, who are in this country illegal, illegally overstay their visas.
So all that being said, nothing the President said today was true, but there are two things that came out of this, which for me are relatively exciting. The first is Nancy Pelosi, as you said. She did not come to play. She was a complete and utter boss in that. In fact, it reminded me of Waiting to Exhale. When Angela Bassett flipped the match and the car blew up when she walked out of the White House.
I mean that is what you saw in Nancy Pelosi. She was a leader. And I think that she exemplified something that women actually deal with on a daily basis in the workplace, which is trying to have -- or fighting back from mediocre men, mansplaining to them throughout meeting after meeting after meeting.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: First and foremost.
LEMON: You're reading ahead in the textbook, Bakari, because we're going to talk about that a little bit later. You remember the commercial where the man in the meeting does this, and he goes -- but I went like this and said the same thing as the woman.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: It was so funny to watch -- and I think that women deal with that in the workplace on a daily basis. But number two was I don't care how you spin it. Nobody wins during a shutdown. I mean those are people's lives and jobs at stake. And the fact that Donald Trump wants to own that, it's not politically popular.
LEMON: Yeah.
SELLERS: The only thing that's less politically popular than a shutdown is the border wall. So I don't know how he wins in this. And I think that Chuck and Nancy got a win out of this. But Nancy is on cloud nine right now.
LEMON: Quick, Ana because I get to break. NAVARRO: He wants to own it. Donald Trump wants to own it right now because it's about tough talk, and it's about bravado. But if in two weeks you're seeing government workers, you're seeing park rangers, you're seeing janitors in the halls of Congress who are not getting paid, people who unlike him are not billionaires and live paycheck to paycheck over the Christmas holidays. That's when he's not going to want to own it, because it's about human tragedy and human distrust.
[22:45:11] LEMON: Yeah. The President mansplaining, Nancy Pelosi checking him. We'll talk about that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump putting divided government before the cameras today as he spars with Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi over the border wall in the Oval Office. Is this a preview of the next two years as Democrats take control of the House, and could this potentially hamper the hunt for a new Chief of Staff? Back with me, Ana, Mike and Bakari, so let's talk.
I just -- I want to get your reaction, Ana, to this moment from the Oval Office. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[22:50:01] DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I also know that you know Nancy's in a situation where it's not easy for her to talk right now. And I understand that. And I fully understand that. We're going to have a good discussion, and we're going to see what happens.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President.
TRUMP: But we have to have border security.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, please don't characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting as the leader of the House Democrats who just won a big victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Was that a mansplaining moment? I mean what was that? We call it a read.
NAVARRO: Listen. It was a Donald Trump being Donald Trump moment. And I think Nancy Pelosi put him in his place and reminded him who is who, and reminded him what Republicans seem to have forgotten, which is that Congress is an independent and coequal branch of government. And that she is there to be respected as a coequal branch of government. Not as a coffee girl since he likes coffee boys so much.
But you know what, Don? Oh, can we talk about Mike Pence for a minute? I mean, my God, can you just give me a close up of that man's face.
LEMON: Madam (Inaudible). NAVARRO: I don't know if he was meditating, levitating, or
hibernating. That was a thing of beauty. I mean honestly, could watch those 15 minutes of TV all damn day.
LEMON: I was thinking you know what, he's pretty smart. I'm not getting into this. I'm not. But it was funny watching him.
NAVARRO: He does a hell of an imitation of a cactus.
LEMON: You're crazy, girl. OK, so Mike, listen. Leader Pelosi privately -- this is how she described President Trump after meeting, OK, saying this. Quote, it's like a manhood thing for him, as if manhood could ever been associated with him. This wall thing, Mike, is it a manhood thing?
SHIELDS: Well, first of all, I can tell you I love this. I mean please, can we have Nancy Pelosi in the Oval Office everyday.
LEMON: You want her to be President?
SHIELDS: This is the best thing for Republicans that could possibly happen. One of the ways that Donald Trump has 304 electoral votes was he had a foil. He had Hillary Clinton to running against him, a deeply, deeply unpopular liberal politician. He hasn't had that for two years. Now he has it. And you did see a preview the next two years, which is President Trump going up against Nancy Pelosi.
Nancy Pelosi spurred on by her base to show bravado. And everyone of, you know, of her liberal friends saying wow, she really stuck it to him. That's great. The more that she wants to fight with Donald Trump and the more he can fight with her, the more he's going to get re-elected in 2020. She's going to become his foil, and she's actually even less popular nationally than Hillary Clinton was.
LEMON: The difference is that Hillary Clinton wanted to be nice. She wanted to play the grandmother. Nancy Pelosi doesn't mind being Alexis Carrington, Colby Dexter.
SHIELDS: Nancy Pelosi can barely get elected in her own conference because they know what a liability she is. And she's basically bullying them to send her into the Speakership again. And that's great.
LEMON: How do you say that after what happened in November?
SHIELDS: Please, Democrats, elect Nancy Pelosi as Speaker, please, please, please.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Hold on, Bakari. How do you say that after what she accomplished back in November?
SHIELDS: Great question. Even after that, they know that she's such a huge liability that they don't -- that she's having a hard time corralling the vote. She should have just rode as a champion after that election straight into the Speakership. That didn't happen because she's so unpopular nationally.
LEMON: OK. Go ahead, Bakari.
SELLERS: Let's insert a modicum of fact here. Hillary Clinton, while you want to bring that up and always constantly bring up Hillary Clinton. She actually got the third most votes of anybody to ever run for President of the United States of America. Number one being Barack Obama, number two being Barack Obama, number three was Hillary Clinton. So let's set that aside.
The other thing about it is I love how we like to chastise and pick on Nancy Pelosi when Chuck Schumer was also in the room. Chuck Schumer also chastised Donald Trump to his face. Chuck Schumer simply sat there and played him, and said if we're still talking about the President winning North Dakota and Indiana, the President is losing. He gave it back to him just as much as what Nancy Pelosi did.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Listen, every, every, every, you know -- who we're forgetting here is John Boehner, who Mike, you and I like, and Paul Ryan who you and I like, were -- had a very difficult time getting elected Speakers and also had rebels in their caucus, the Freedom Caucus in their case who didn't want to vote for them. They had actual challenges on the floor. And they had people voting for other folks.
What we saw today is that Nancy Pelosi is conglomerating her power. She's going to have the votes necessary to be Speaker. By the time January 3rd rolls around, girlfriend is going to have this whole telenovela in its season finale, and it's going to be pretty good for her.
(CROSSTALK)
SELLERS: We don't have anybody else in our caucus right now who can do what Nancy Pelosi did. Nancy Pelosi is a leader, and I dare say that Nancy Pelosi is a stronger leader of her caucus than Paul Ryan ever could be.
LEMON: You said you agree with that. Mike lets me ask you this. What happened to Mexico paying for the wall? Because they even said today they're not paying for the wall. Why doesn't anybody like ask or challenge the President on, hey, why are you asking Congress for money when you said.
(CROSSTALK)
[22:55:14] SHIELDS: I think you guys challenge him on that every night. You've been challenging him on that all night.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Members of his own party and his supporters.
SHIELDS: Look, I don't know. Frankly, I don't know how to describe the wall funding thing. Clearly, we're fighting over funding in Congress for the wall. So it's not Mexico...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No, Mike. It's really easy. It's really simple. He said Mexico is going to pay for the wall.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you. I don't understand. That's something I don't get. I don't know why he said that or how that is possibly going to be true. I don't get that. But what I will tell you that I do find interesting is we're talking about Nancy Pelosi, is that a lot of people on the left who criticized the President for the last two years for his tone and for being so aggressive, more than even the words or the policies.
And yet, what you see in Democrats, their base is so angry that their politicians now have to show tone. And we're saying things like she owned him and, you know Chuck Schumer really got him in this meeting. That's going to be interesting to play that out in the Democratic primary.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, wait, wait, wait, Mike, when we have Nancy.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Don't beat up on Mike at one point. One at a time, beat up on him one at a time.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: I'm good.
NAVARRO: I'm telling you, you know, I am not a member of the Nancy Pelosi fan club. But you cannot compare Nancy Pelosi's tone today when she pushed back, but did so in a classy professional manner, with what we have heard from Donald Trump in the campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I got to go. Can you take 10 seconds?
NAVARRO: If you're able to get me video and audio of Nancy Pelosi boasting of grabbing a man's crotch, then I will tell you it's even and a fair comparison.
LEMON: Go ahead, Mike.
SHIELDS: Look. The Democratic primary process, part of it is going to be how tough can our rhetoric be. And they're going to go too far, which always cuts them just like in the Kavanaugh hearings. They're going to go too far led by Nancy.
LEMON: OK. Let's hope none of that happens.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Crotch-grabbing or whatever. We don't want any of that. Thank you, all. Everybody beat up on Mike today. Thank you, Mike. We're going to let you beat up on some folks one day soon. I promise. Thank you, all. Have a good night. I'll see you later. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
