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Don Lemon Tonight
Former Trump Fixer And Lawyer Cohen Sentenced To Three Years in Prison, Admits To Covering Up Trump's Dirty Deeds; Melania Trump Slams the Media; Fact-Checking the Steele Dossier; Pelosi Cuts Deal to Win Votes of Rebel Dems in Bid to Become House Speaker. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired December 12, 2018 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. The President's long time lawyer and fixer is going to jail. Michael Cohen was sentenced to three years in prison. In part for campaign finance crimes that according to federal prosecutors were committed quote, in coordination with and at the direction of Donald Trump.
The crimes? Paying porn star Stormy Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal for their silence just before the 2016 election. Another major development to tell you about, American Media, Inc., the owner of the "National Enquirer," reached a deal with prosecutors in connection with a $150,000 payment to Karen McDougal. Prosecutors say AMI admitted to paying McDougal in coordination with Trump's campaign to keep her from publicizing damaging allegations about Trump before the election.
It is important to remember that earlier this year. Both Michael Cohen and President Trump denied that payments were ever made to Stormy Daniels or Karen McDougal. Obviously, those were blatant lies. So please follow along with me. You want to pay attention to this. It's important. I'm going to take you through the evolution of the lies. Lies, lies and more lies. These is the evolution of the lies.
It all started on January 12th, when "the Wall Street Journal" broke the story that Michael Cohen arranged to pay Stormy Daniels $130,000 before the election to keep quiet about her alleged affair with Trump. OK? Cohen called the story outlandish, outlandish allegations and the White House dismissed the story, but one month later, Cohen admitted that he did pay Daniels, but he claimed it was his money and he wasn't reimbursed. This is what the White House said then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I've had conversations with the President about this. There was no knowledge of any payments from the President and he is denied all of these allegations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: These people lie so much, it is crazy. Have you ever? And in April, President Trump was asked directly about the payments to Stormy Daniels.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, did you know about the $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did Michael Cohen make this, if there was no truth to her allegations?
TRUMP: Well, you have to ask Michael Cohen. Michael's my -- an attorney and you'll have to ask Michael Cohen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know where he got the money to make that payment?
TRUMP: I don't know, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But then three weeks later, Cohen's offices were raided by the FBI and the story from the Trump team changed drastically.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Michael would represent me like with this crazy Stormy Daniels deal, he represented me. And you know from, what I see, he did absolutely nothing wrong. There was no campaign funds going into this which would had been a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then why is he pleading the fifth?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Up until that point, this so-called crazy Stormy Daniels deal didn't exist in Trump world. Then in May, Rudy Giuliani said this on Sean Hannity's Fox News show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GUILIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: It's not campaign money. No campaign finance violation.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX HOST: So, they funneled it through a law firm.
GUILIANI: Funneled through a law firm and the President repaid it.
HANNITY: Oh. I did not know he did.
GUILIANI: Yes, he didn't know about the specifics of it, as far as I know, but he did know about the general arrangement that Michael would take care of things like this. Like, I take care of things like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP) [23:05:00] LEMON: Bro, can you all believe this. First it never
happened. Outlandish, ludicrous. Well, if it happened, it wasn't illegal and I don't know what you're talking about.
So the next morning, after that Giuliani interview, Trump sent out multiple tweets arguing that the payments to Stormy Daniels, that payment to Stormy Daniels was legal. Here's what he said in part, Mr. Cohen an attorney receive a monthly retainer not from the campaign and having nothing to do with the campaign and money from the campaign or campaign contributions played no role in this transaction.
This was around the time stories were coming out about Karen McDougal's allegations about Trump. Are you following along with me? First Stormy Daniels and then Karen McDougal. Here's what Karen McDougal told my colleague Anderson Cooper.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN MCDOUGAL, PLAYBOY MODEL: Well, then, the Republican -- he won the Republican nomination and AMI was interested in the story again.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Once Donald Trump won the Republican nomination.
MCDOUGAL: Right, correct.
COOPER: You're saying AMI suddenly came back to you with interesting stories?
MCDOUGAL: Well, to Keith, yes, for us for the story, yes.
COOPER: Why do you think it was that it was after Donald Trump was the Republican nominee that they came back?
MCDOUGAL: They wanted to squash the story.
COOPER: You're saying they wanted to protect Donald Trump?
MCDOUGAL: I'm assuming so, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And in July, Michael Cohen's lawyer released the tape, Cohen secretly recorded where we hear him discuss, we hear it for our own selves with our own ears, we hear him discuss the Karen McDougal payment with then candidate Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL COHEN, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: I need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend David, you know, so that I'm going to do that right away. I've actually.
TRUMP: Give it to me.
COHEN: I've spoken to Allen Weiselberg about how to set the whole thing up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Never happened. Michael Cohen is a liar. That never happened. In the next few months, Trump called Cohen a liar, a flipper, weak, someone who made up stories, but had very little to do with him. Very little. He worked for him for 10 years, more.
And last night just before Cohen's sentencing the President weighed in on the hush money payments to Daniels and McDougal one more time telling Reuters and I quote here, number one it wasn't a campaign contribution. If it were, it's only civil and even if it's only civil, there's no violation based on what we did. OK? OK? Based on what we did?
That is not what the judge said today. The judge citing what he called a veritable smorgasbord of criminal conduct, including buying the silence of Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. And it's important to know, all of this happened in less than one year. And still, and still here we are every night. Imagine if you or I did that or anybody you know. I haven't had this much drama in my life in the entire time 57 years that I've been on earth. This all happen in less than one year.
Let's discuss now, former Nixon White House Counsel, John Dean, the Presidential Historian, Douglas Brinkley. I mean, come on, guys. Imagine -- imagine the witch hunt, oh, my gosh, they started out it's a witch hunt. This never happened. This is ludicrous.
It's outrageous. Nobody would ever do anything like this, and now, oh, well, if we did it, it's just civil. It's not illegal. John, you just heard the evolution of the lies and these hush money payments. We've come a long way in one year. The question is what the hell is next?
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I don't think anybody is going to buy the story, Don. Just as you've assembled it, others have, too. Or will. And it's devastating. I mean it just shows how patron a liar he is and how weak the lies are that he makes.
LEMON: Doug, what do you make of all this? Before I give you specifics, I mean, that is the evolution of just the lies about the hush money payments. There have been lies about so many other things. Talk to me here. I mean, you're a historian. This is what you do. Have you ever?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, there's nothing like him in the sense, I mean, to lie is Trump. That is what he does.
[23:10:03] He is a professional liar. He really launched his political career on making up the Obama birther story and he took it from there. So we shouldn't be surprised that he lies and makes alibis for things, but we're starting to see through him. I mean, look at this day in history today. Michael Cohen sentenced for three years in jail? That is the
President of the United States' personal fixer and there is promising more stories to come out on Michael Cohen and then the "National Enquirer" publisher, Mr. Pecker, is suddenly strikes a deal with the prosecution and believe me, it's not just you know, Stormy Daniels and McDougal. There's probably going to be more there. So we're at the beginning of a process of unraveling of the President here.
And to be associated with Donald Trump, to be in his cabinet, to be seen in a photo op working in the White House with him is dangerous. He is a man that the full force of the law is coming at right now. And he has no place to hide.
LEMON: What's your take on Cohen, John? How do you think he is going to be remembered?
DEAN: Well, it's interesting that he wants to be remembered as I was or have been.
LEMON: As a John Dean in all of this. We have the real John Dean here. That is why I asked you. How do you think he is going to be remembered?
DEAN: You know, he was in a different situation than I. I blew up the cover-up internally before I went external. I tried to get my colleagues to go to the grand jury. I tried to convince Nixon that he had to fire everybody and had to end the cover-up. I failed internally and so told them I was going to go outside and talk to the prosecutors. They said fine. They just didn't think I would tell the truth. And I did. I told the truth, and who knew the tapes were there to back me up, because it was pretty lonely initially.
LEMON: So.
DEAN: I think Michael is traveling a different path than I had is the short answer.
LEMON: How so?
DEAN: Well, he is, you know, he is got himself caught up in some tax violations that I think were at the heart of the sentencing today. And not the campaign act violation. The judge was also singled out lying to Congress. That is something I never had -- was going to do for anybody and made it very clear, I don't lie. And they leaned on me pretty heavily to do so. So why they thought I would, I don't know, but that is one of the problems he is going to have.
And I think Michael has a chance though, Don, within the next year to come forward with the rest of the story. He hasn't fully cooperated with the Southern District. And under the code of federal criminal law, there's something called rule 35 that gives you a whole year after you have been completed your plea and what have you to come back into court and give reasons why your sentence should be reduced.
LEMON: Can you imagine if he goes to speak before the Democratic members of democratically led Congress now, because he said he is open to doing it. And I think if he is open to it, they're probably going to ask him to come in. Imagine, you know what that is like, John. Imagine if that is going to be --
DEAN: I think Jerry Nadler and the Judiciary Committee would be crazy not to call him.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: Because he is so intimate to this man and this presidency that he can sort of be a stage setter. He can fill that role which I was able to do, as well.
LEMON: I can't wait to see that, I've got to be honest. So Doug, my colleague Manu Raju asked Republican Senators today about this payment to playboy model Karen McDougal linked to the Trump campaign. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You saw what happened in court today. Federal prosecutors they said this $150,000 payment was done in concert with the Trump campaign. What's your reaction to that?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, all I can say is that he pled guilty to things unrelated to Russian collusion so that is the first thing I was looking for.
SENATOR JOHN KENNEDY, (R), LOUISIANA: I am always concerned if there's a violation of a campaign finance act, but in order to assess whether this is something that should be prosecuted as a crime, you have to a, you have to see all the evidence. I haven't seen any of the evidence except Mr. Cohen's testimony, and his credibility is suspect at best.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It is just -- I can't even believe, how do they come up with this? How do they sleep at night?
[23:15:00] Listen, the President's lawyer, Doug, was sentenced to prison for three years today. The court documents explicitly say that the President and the campaign were involved. How -- how on earth can they minimize this?
BRINKLEY: Because they're just trying to stick by Donald Trump till it gets so bad they can't. And you would think that they would have met the Rubicon a long time ago. Instead, you're getting a lot of mealy mouthed the GOP lawmakers trying to say, this isn't that big a deal, this isn't enough.
I was stunned to hear John Edwards defense by some Republicans. Edwards and Democratic Party history is considered the bottom rung, the guy who you know, horrific Senator, who did terrible things, his wife was dying of cancer and he had this baby and all -- and Trump's almost saying I'm like John Edwards. You know, he got away. I'll get away eventually. It's sad, we don't
have like in the Watergate era that Barry Goldwater, Howard Baker leaders to put their finger in the President's face and say, you've lied to us, and you've lied to the American people. That is enough.
One other thing, Don, we were talking with John Dean, who I was so lucky to have as a colleague here at CNN. He is very different in my view as a historian for Michael Cohen. I mean, Dean from 1970 to '73 was the White House council. He was one of the most brilliant lawyers in the United States.
Michael Cohen was a guy who barely made it to law school, who Trump was just using to do little cash payments and nefarious things. It is interesting that like in Watergate, the tapes are so important. I'll be curious to see if there are more Cohen/Trump tapes that emerge here in the coming weeks.
LEMON: Yes, but again, I can't wait to see that testimony in front of Congress. That is going to be interesting.
BRINKLEY: When Sam Urban did it during Watergate, that is when the public started really tuning in. Michael Cohen in front of Congress, well, everybody will be watching that, and that is when the public really starts turning on Trump even more than they already have.
LEMON: There you go. Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate it.
First Lady Melania Trump, speaking out tonight and no surprise, slamming the media. We'll tell you what she said next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: First Lady Melania Trump is speaking out in an interview with Fox tonight and like her husband, she did not hesitate to take a dig at the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: What's been the hardest for you since you've become first lady? What's been the hardest thing that you have to deal with?
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I would say, they are opportunists, who are using my name or my family name to advance themselves from comedians, to journalists, to performers, book writers.
HANNITY: Does it hurt?
M. TRUMP: It doesn't hurt. The problem is they are writing the history and it's not correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So let's discuss now, Susan Glasser, April Ryan the author of "Under Fire: Reporting from the Frontlines of the Trump White House." Good evening. So Susan, I just want to get your reaction to what the first lady
said. She thinks anyone who calls out the Trump family for their actions tells the truth about what's happening, holds their feet to the fire, that they're opportunists. Really?
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You know, Don, I was really struck by her comment. First of all, she has this incredible air of aggrievement (ph). Here is this extraordinary story of a woman who came to this country as an immigrant, as a model and is now the first lady of the United States and, you know, you would think in her rare public appearances, you know, that some terrible wrong has been done to her in this country.
I've always been surprised by that air of grievance that she carries very publicly with her, but I was struck by this comment that she just made about history and the idea that the history of the Trump presidency and of their family is being miswritten. This is whatever you think of it, undoubtedly a historical presidency and people will be writing about this for generations to come.
And it's -- the sense of not enough distance to understand what the role is that you're playing is something that really does leap across, and you know, it just, again, I come back to don't you guys, to this question of what is it that brings the sense of grievance into the White House like this?
LEMON: She is seems put upon. She says it doesn't hurt, but listen, I've said all along history is being written in the moment and I don't think that this administration and this President understands that to say that people are opportunists when they're just putting the President's words back on television and his deeds, I don't understand how that is being an opportunist. I mean they're the first family.
First families get a lot of attention, reported on the news all the time. No first family likes it. What do you think of her comments, you know, that are different from the President's? If they're any different from the President's crying fake news, April?
APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALIST: The first lady is echoing exactly what the President says. And it's they're crying -- the President has cried fake, because he doesn't like the truth that is being reported and now the first lady, who at one point used to see it clear, we thought than she is now.
We are reporting what we are seeing and what we're hearing. We're reporting on his Justice Department, who is doing -- working on this Russia investigation.
[23:25:02] We're reporting on everything from a to z and all that we find out in between. And I don't understand how that is fake. They don't like it. That is why it's fake.
LEMON: April, sources are telling CNN, the President is seething after Cohen was sentenced to three years in prison and that he sees impeachment as a real possibility. Are we at a low point in the Trump presidency? RYAN: Is the President at a low point in the Trump presidency? Yes.
The nation is watching this happen and we're watching to see - I mean, it's playing out like a movie, Don. And like I said last night, the movie comes out, we saw the trailer yesterday. The movie comes out, checks and balances in 2019.
The president was keenly aware months before the midterm elections that Dems were going to win the House. He was prayerful, if he does pray that the Senate would keep - would remain Republican, but he understands full well that once Elijah Cummings sits in that seat, once again as head of Government Oversight and Reform, he is going to go after the President. There will be investigation after investigation.
Democrats are waiting for Mueller, but they are getting the cue that they may start impeachment. Now the issue is again, he may not be convicted meaning removal, because the Senate is Republican. He understands clearly, what they're going to do.
LEMON: Yes. Susan, American Media is in a cooperation agreement with the Feds. They admit that they paid off Karen McDougal to keep news of her affair with Donald Trump from influencing the 2016 election and they did it in coordination with the Trump campaign. Are these investigations getting closer to the President do you think?
GLASSER: You know, it's hard to imagine closer to the President than his campaign chairman, Paul Manafort and his not only personal lawyer and long-time fixer, Michael Cohen going to jail for three years. The American Media thing I think it's very significant. By making an arrangement like this and avoids their own having to face further consequences. It suggests they may be open to telling more of Donald Trump's secrets to prosecutors.
This is how prosecutors work to roll up any kind of criminal conspiracy, right? You roll up different parts of the network and get it closer to the center. Naturally, I think people are wondering what is the level of exposure that Donald Trump's family faces given that this was a family business, given how intimately involved his children were in all aspects. Not only of his company, but also of his 2016 Presidential campaign, now of course, you have two of his children in the White House, as well, his daughter and son-in-law and so that would increase even more pressure on President Trump so far.
You haven't seen the prosecutors in the Southern District show their hand as far as the family or the Mueller investigation, but I think that is a serious question given what we know for example, about Don Jr.'s role in the company, also in that famous Trump tower meeting.
I expect that will be one turn of the investigation, but again, you know, there's all this spin. And you showed some of it tonight. It's pretty extraordinary, but think back to where we were six months ago. If you had realized that Trump's fixer and lawyer would turn on him, would be cooperating that his first national security adviser would be cooperating extensively with prosecutors, his campaign chairman.
Again, we're looking at a world where Trump must feel that he really can't trust anybody and, of course, he is always been reported to have that as his personality trait anyways, I mean you know, no wonder the guy thinks only family are to be trusted. So far in fact his associates have turned on him.
LEMON: So, April, quickly if you can here, what does all this mean for the search for a Chief of Staff, because Congressman Mark Meadows said he is out. Kellyanne Conway hinted to General Kelly that she may stay on past - she may not stay on -- she might stay on past the beginning of the year. Who is going to take this job?
RYAN: You know, I don't know the President likes to say that everyone's lining up to take a job at the White House. There are certain people that had been coming in and out, but right now this White House is a hot potato that some people are walking away from, because of the inevitability of impeachment.
And all sorts of hearings and now this White House from 2017 and 2018, we know for a fact is now linked to this Mueller investigation. It's a hot potato. A lot of people don't want to touch it. We will see who comes in. We're hearing some of the characters that we've heard about before, you know, Chris Christie, we've seen Newt Gingrich walk through the White House. We'll see what happens and who ends up being tapped. I know, right.
LEMON: Yes. Let me correct myself, Kellyanne Conway hinted that General Kelly might stay on past the first of the year. I read that wrong. Thank you both, I appreciate it. Thank you.
The President has claimed on multiple occasions that the contents of the Steele dossier are false.
[23:30:00] Turns out, that is not true. We are going to break down what's proven true in the dossier and what's still unresolved.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Trump trying to dismiss the fact that at least 16 of his associates had contacts with Russians during the 2016 campaign or presidential transition. He claims that's peanut stuff.
Yet, in the past, he completely denied such contacts even existed. The president also never misses a chance to slam the document known as the Steele dossier. But we now know from the Mueller probe that some of the details it contains are true. Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: You should ask Hillary Clinton about Russia because she financed the fake dossier.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Team Trump's assessment of the Steele dossier has never wavered. They have always dismissed the research packet put together during the campaign at the request of opponents as a smear job, plain and simple.
TRUMP: The fake dossier, the phony dossier.
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The dirty discredited dossier.
[23:35:00] FOREMAN: But as Robert Mueller's Russia investigation has rolled on, digging into many of the same areas cited in the dossier, parts of it have held up over time. Start with the real estate. The dossier claims the Russians were trying to lure candidate Trump into a tighter relationship by offering favorable real estate deals.
For decades, Trump had dreamed of building something in Russia, including one suggestion of a large luxury hotel across the street from the Kremlin. But his one-time attorney Michael Cohen told Congress all such talks had stopped by January 2016, the start of the election year.
Now, however, Cohen has admitted negotiations were still under way with the Russians a half year later. Even as Trump locked up the Republican nomination, a reality Trump casually dismisses now.
TRUMP: I decided ultimately not to do it. There would have been nothing wrong if I did do it.
FOREMAN: The dossier says the Kremlin was in contact with Trump associates with designs on feeding them help for the campaign. Trump has always insisted --
TRUMP: There was no collusion.
FOREMAN: We don't know about that yet, but do know Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort all met with Russians at Trump Tower after being promised campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton. They along with 13 others in the president's orbit had contact with Russians during the election and transition.
Other items in the dossier remain unresolved. Among them, the idea that the Russians have some evidence of improper or illegal activity by Trump himself which might give them leverage over him, and the notion that any communications between team Trump and the Russians were explicitly tied to influencing the election. But listen once more to what Trump has said of the whole thing time and again.
TRUMP: Well, I think it's very sad what they've done with this fake dossier. It was made-up.
FOREMAN: Ever since this dossier emerged, journalists and politicos have wrestled with it, neither wanting to give too much credence to such explosive charges nor to simply ignore them. That is still the case. But we now know that some of the material is definitively true, that some Trump associates lied about those matters no matter how much the White House denies it. Don?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Tom Foreman, thank you very much, sir. What else in the dossier could turn out to be true? We're going to dig into that, next. [23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So the Steele dossier -- the Steele dossier has been a thorn in President Trump's side from the very beginning. But now, some key elements of the dossier have been proven true. Let's discuss now. Max Boot. Max is the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." He is here. Also with us, Joan Walsh and Rob Astorino. Good evening to all of you.
JOAN WALSH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good evening.
LEMON: Thanks for coming to the dinner table.
WALSH: Yes. Bringing it together.
ROB ASTORINO, MEMBER, TRUMP 2020 RE-ELECTION ADVISORY COUNCIL: What's for dinner?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: The Steele dossier is for dinner.
WALSH: It's on the table.
LEMON: OK, so Max, let's talk about this. The Steele dossier, you heard what Tom reported a moment ago. The dossier said that the Kremlin was in contact with Trump associates offering to help with the campaign. We now know that 16 people, according to CNN, some of the highest levels of the Trump orbit were in contact with the Russians. Do you think that lends to some of the credibility of the dossier?
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yeah, absolutely. I don't think we have verified all the information or even most of the information in the dossier, but very little of it has been shown to be false, almost none of it. When it has been shown to be false, it's really in details where Christopher Steele said that Carter Page met with two Russian officials and it turns out he met with two different Russian officials, so not a huge kind of difference.
I would say, Don, the main claims in the Steele dossier are A, that the Russians compromised Donald Trump financially, B, they compromised him sexually, and C, that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians in terms of the WikiLeaks and undermining the Hillary Clinton campaign.
Now, we don't really know anything on the sexual front, obviously the famous pee tape. There is no information about that. But that should not be the focus of the inquiry. We are learning more about the financial connections like the Trump Tower Moscow that they were pursuing in the midst of the campaign. And we are certainly learning a lot about the collusion with the June 16th meeting with the Russians and various other contacts with the 16 Trump campaign officials.
So, all of that, none of that is it to say that the Steele dossier is 100 percent true, but there's a lot of stuff in there which is really bearing up under scrutiny.
LEMON: OK. Rob, I want to get you in. Just sort of transparency, Rob, you signed an NDA for Trump, right? A non-disparagement, right?
ASTORINO: I've said plenty of bad things.
LEMON: OK. I just want to make sure. So the dossier also said that the Kremlin used the promise of favorable real estate deals to cozy up to the campaign. Now, from Michael Cohen's testimony, we're learning about Trump's involvement in the possibility of building a Trump tower in Moscow during the campaign. Does that part of the dossier have the ring of truth to you?
ASTORINO: The Trump Organization does real estate, and it was going to do real estate before he was a candidate, while he was a candidate, and they're still doing real estate. So I don't think anything has really changed. We don't have any proof that any deals were cut specifically by the upper levels of the Russian government with the campaign and/or Donald Trump to curry favors. None of that has come out at all.
And you know, so I think this is the big point, is that things were happening as they normally would happen because the Trump Organization does real estate.
LEMON: But you would offer a penthouse to a --
ASTORINO: There's no proof of that.
[23:45:00] WALSH: I think things were -- I mean, you know, Rob is being honest. Things were happening that would normally happen. I mean, even the president was honest, I didn't know if I was going to be elected, so I was looking for --
LEMON: That's all true.
WALSH: -- business opportunities. That's all true. I mean, the thing about the Steele dossier is it partly indicts our industry that some of us, not us at the table by any means, are a little bit shallow and went straight to the pee tape. If you can't prove that --
LEMON: By the way, we keep going to this. CNN never reported on that but go on.
WALSH: Right. CNN -- right --
LEMON: Never disclosed that. Came out and now we're all talking about it.
WALSH: Right, then what you're going to do? So, here I am bringing it up, too. I'm shallow. I'm guilty. So that's the thing that no one can prove, but so much of this has been proven. And also, it was a raw, a fairly raw intelligence document. It was not meant to be the final Steele report. I've connected all the dots. It was -- I've done these interviews and I'm seeing these patterns.
LEMON: I want to get this in because this is the first lady speaking to Fox News tonight. This is her response after being asked about how often she weighs in on decisions her husband makes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I know exactly what's going on. I follow what's going on. And I give my husband advice and my honest opinion. And sometimes he listens and sometimes he doesn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So remember we were talking about she publicly weighed in on Mira Ricardel, right? She was the national security --
WALSH: Right, right, right.
LEMON: They had that little tip. But her comments -- I mean, they leave no room. She has influence in the West Wing.
WALSH: That doesn't surprise me.
LEMON: All first ladies.
WALSH: All first ladies do. I don't think there's anything nefarious about it. I mean, sometimes she spins things or her people spin things that she's trying to be a good or a better influence. I don't know about that.
But, you know, the thing that struck me about that interview, you know, again, she continues to whine about a situation that she's part of and it's a great honor to be first lady and I'm sure privately you're allowed to grouse, but, you know, if Michelle Obama had done half the complaining that she has done in her limited interviews, she doesn't do many, she would be skewered.
I mean, there's just like a constant sort of pity party when she gets in front of a microphone.
ASTORINO: She didn't need to complain, the media loved her.
LEMON: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
WALSH: Michelle?
ASTORINO: Michelle Obama.
WALSH: I think Mi -- she took some elbows.
LEMON: Really?
ASTORINO: Oh.
WALSH: Yeah.
LEMON: You don't remember when people --
ASTORINO: -- carrots (ph) to -- you know, for her --
LEMON: When people talked about her sleeveless dress --
WALSH: And that she was difficult.
LEMON: -- her to animals and --
ASTORINO: Those are bad people.
LEMON: That didn't happen?
ASTORINO: Those weren't media in general.
LEMON: Did that not happen?
WALSH: It did happen. I mean --
LEMON: She didn't complain about it.
WALSH: Well --
LEMON: She wrote about it in her book.
ASTORINO: She's making a lot of money of it now.
LEMON: Yeah.
ASTORINO: She's entitled to do that.
WALSH: She is.
LEMON: When she was first lady, she realized it was a high honor to be first lady.
WALSH: Yeah, and really shouldn't be going around.
LEMON: Did you guys see what happened in the Oval Office yesterday?
ASTORINO: Oh, yeah.
LEMON: We're going to talk about the Trump shutdown when we come back.
WALSH: Yes.
[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Nancy Pelosi has reached the deal tonight with a group of seven House Democrats who were challenging her bid to be the next speaker of the House. The deal paves the way for her to be speaker when the next Congress reconvenes in January.
Back with me now, Max Boot, Joan Walsh, and Rob Astorino. How much yesterday's performance, Joan, in the Oval Office have to do with the support for her in this deal, you think? WALSH: I think it showed why she deserved to be speaker. But it sort of on separate track. I find it magnificent. It's such a great deal. OK, I will not serve again when I'm 82. It'll be like me saying to you, Don, I'll be on your show, but I cannot be on past midnight.
You know, it's sort of like she was never going to do that anyway. She'll be 82 years old. She's got a ton of grand kids. So, she agreed to do something that she was going to do anyway. But I think it's also interesting and it shows that she wants to move on an agenda and she doesn't want to have to be placating and watching her back. I thought it was pretty masterful.
LEMON: She was not afraid to go toe to toe with the president yesterday. How much do you think that played into it? The reason that Democrats are saying, hey, let's take another look at her.
BOOT: It definitely made her into a media star. I think there was a lot of swooning and I can see why because we're not used to seeing somebody stand up to Donald Trump face-to-face, and she certainly did in that great line about don't characterize the strength that I bring to this meeting as the leader of the Democratic majority.
She -- you know, acquitted (ph) herself very well. He didn't have a great comeback. And I think she tagged him with a Trump shutdown, which he basically accepted which is not a smart thing to do.
WALSH: Right.
BOOT: Whenever you -- somebody shuts down a government in Washington, there's always the blame game. We are always trying to finger the other party. And Donald Trump just accepted the blame. This is not going to be popular if it actually happens, which I doubt that it will, but they outmaneuvered him, I would say.
LEMON: When she said Trump shutdown right in the Oval Office, he was like what?
(LAUGHTER)
BOOT: -- didn't know about Trump shutdown. Trump Tower, he likes. Trump shutdown, I don't know.
LEMON: Can we talk about Mike Pence, the vice president? He's got a lot of mockery and scorn for what people call the wax-like demeanor during --
ASTORINO: What kind of position was he --
LEMON: Should he intervene?
ASTORINO: Why? To say what? I mean, they're going at it.
(LAUGHTER)
ASTORINO: And what would he have added at that point, really? I mean, it was between the president -- and all three came out winners. I really believe that. Trump is standing firm for something that was very important for him for the election and his base but also for the nation. This immigration and the lack of a border basically is really big issue. You see it in the polls, too.
WALSH: We do have a border. We have a very strong border.
ASTORINO: Well, we've got a very porous border right now.
[23:54:59] You've got Schumer who not too long ago, they were protesting in Brooklyn outside of his house, his base, screaming and yelling at him.
WALSH: Right.
ASTORINO: And of course, Pelosi dealing with trying to become speaker again. So, for all three, they got to play to their crowd --
WALSH: Right.
ASTORINO: -- in a perfect setting.
WALSH: I don't disagree with you about that and Trump's base. I think, you know, he can look strong. I just think about Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell did not come out and say, yeah, I think it's a good idea, let's do that.
So, you really have a divide and we saw it in the midterms. We are going to see it for real in 2020, if he makes it to 2020. There is daylight between him and the party. His interests are different from senators and House members. They don't want a shutdown. He does.
LEMON: I got to run because we're out of time. I don't disagree that they all three won. But I think if you're trying to win over any independents or people who had made up their minds, I do think that Nancy Pelosi was the star --
WALSH: Right.
ASTORINO: I think it was theater.
LEMON: Because of the facts. Yeah, I don't disagree that it was theater.
BOOT: Guaranteed her speakership there.
LEMON: Yeah. She just said, here are the facts, Mr. President. You don't know what you're talking about.
ASTORINO: And by the way, maybe Trump wants that, because now he's got a good foil.
LEMON: He's always had a good foil. I don't think he wanted to be embarrassed in --
ASTORINO: Pelosi is a good foil. LEMON: -- front of everybody. I don't think he wanted to be embarrassed in front of everybody in the Oval Office. That was not part of the deal. But, yes, the foil thing, you're right. He likes to have a good foil. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues. Thank you, by the way.
[24:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
