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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Inaugural Committee Under Criminal Investigation; Trump Falsely Claims Cohen's Campaign Finance Violations Are Not Criminal Charges; GOP Lacks Votes To Fund Border Wall; Butina Pleads Guilty To Engaging In Conspiracy; A Seven-Year-Old Guatemalan Girl Died In U.S. Customs And Border Protection Custody; Hate On The Rise In The United States. Aired 11-12a ET

Aired December 13, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. We have learned that President Trump's Inaugural Committee is under investigation tonight. Here is what sources is telling CNN, that Federal prosecutors are looking into possible financial abuses related to more than $100 million in donations raised for the inauguration. The investigation was first reported by "The Wall Street Journal" which says prosecutors are also looking into whether the committee accepted donations from individuals looking to get access to the Trump administration.

The committee saying they were "in full compliance with all applicable laws." But that is certainly not the only bad news for the President tonight.

A source telling CNN that Donald Trump was right there in the room for the August, 2015 meeting with Michael Cohen and David Pecker, the publisher of the National Enquirer. A meeting that prosecutors believe was central to a criminal scheme to violate campaign finance laws to help Trump win the presidency. Cohen pleaded guilty to those campaign finance violations. He said in court that the hush money payments were made at Trump's direction. Yet, the President tells his favorite network this about Michael Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is a lawyer. He represents a client. I never directed him to do anything incorrect or wrong. And he understands that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So here's the real question. Who do you believe? The President in an interview or prosecutors in court? We are going to discuss now, let's bring in Mark Preston, Ryan Lizza, Laura Coates.

Good evening. Good to have all of you on. Laura, another investigation this time of Trump's Inaugural Committee. What is this about? LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it seems

like every single day you have the floodgates opening and why? Because with every cooperator deal you have more and more information, that is the whole essence and the basis for having these cooperators who are coming in, who are spending hours and hours on end conversing with the prosecution to tell them things they don't already know.

And with each certain cooperator that we know about, Michael Cohen in particular and with each audio recording are revealed, you see more and more information that gets closer and closer to the actual Oval Office. And it seems as though there's no stone left unturned if you're Mueller or the SDNY to figure out where this money trail leads and how many tentacles it has and where it goes.

I think it's just another indication that just how comprehensive each of these investigations are and this notion of paying for play and monetizing access to the president and trying to influence the leader of the free world, it goes far deeper than we originally thought.

[23:05:06] LEMON: Ryan, the Journal is reporting that the investigation into the inauguration committee starred in part because of tapes found in the raid of Michael Cohen's office, back in April. Is Michael Cohen creating another potential problem for the President?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It could be if that is where it started. I mean, basically everything is now under investigation, right. The Trump organization is under investigation, the Inaugural Committee, his campaign, his White House. There's really not an entity that the associated with Donald Trump that is not under scrutiny by some law enforcement agency, right?

So I think what we've learned about the Cohen raid and Cohen's cooperation is little by little over the last few weeks, that he is provided a lot of leads for investigators. He provided the lead about the Trump Tower issue, the one that was to be built in Moscow and how the President and people around him didn't tell the truth about that, right? He provided the entirety of the case on the payments to Stormy Daniels and this alleged campaign finance violation. So this may be another one that he offered up to investigators.

LEMON: Interesting. Mark, let me bring you in here, because the President's good friend real estate magnate Tom Barrack, remember him, around the inauguration and the election? We spoke to him a lot. I interviewed him a couple of times, right? He ran the committee. The Inaugural Committee, right? Rick Gates, was a Deputy Chairman, he pled guilty to conspiring to defraud the U.S. and lying to the FBI and is now cooperating with Mueller.

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

LEMON: What does all this mean for the President though?

PRESTON: So a couple things. One, is we don't necessarily know what the investigation is, specifically where the leads are going. But we know that the three pockets specifically they could be looking at. They could be looking at whether there was foreign donations, foreign government money that was coming in and to try to influence the election. That could be one lead. They would be only looking at is the misuse of money, the misappropriation, the idea that somebody on this committee was basically taking this money and using it for their own devices.

And then the third thing is the play for pay, the quid pro quo, the idea that somebody on this committee would say to x, y and z, you know, if you give me x amount of dollars, I can get you a meeting with the President. Now, as far as Tom Barrack goes, you know, just because he was in charge of the committee doesn't necessarily know - that doesn't mean that he actually knew what was going on. I mean, in many ways, these guys are major figure heads.

However, when you get down into the weeds of the people who are actually running it and who are running the numbers and who are in charge of the money, specifically moving it that day. That could be a really big problem. And you are absolutely right, when you put Rick Gates in the middle of this whole situation. Things really do seem to be falling into place.

LEMON: I'm not saying anyone is guilty or Tom Barrack or anyone - it is just in the reporting. Laura, Tom Barrack hasn't spoken to investigates since he spoke to Mueller's team last year. Does that tell you anything about this investigation?

COATES: It could mean they had every information piece that they needed from him and they exhausted that particular resource. It could mean they wanted to wait for corroboration from other people. They had a certain amount of leads from him, they pursued them. They were able to corroborate.

It doesn't necessarily give you any indication of whether or not this person would ultimately be in their cross hairs, but it does tell you that at a very early stage they were looking at this very issue. They were identifying leads well before "The Wall Street Journal" reports it, well before people were aware of it and well before you even knew about the known cooperators like Rick Gates.

This would have predated his actual decision to plead in lew of going to trial along with his former chairman, Paul Manafort. So do you see that this idea that once again, all of the notions that this -- the delay tactics perhaps by the President's attorney for his answers or other attempts to try to dissuade the Mueller probe has simply not actually been fruitful. They have been trucking right along and they are collecting clues as they find them and corroborating later.

LEMON: So listen, let me just get this right. The Trump, now it's a Trump organization, right? The Inaugural Committee, the Foundation, right? And Trump University that have all been investigated, correct? And some of those there have been people who were indicted and guilty, some of them, not all of them. We're not saying anybody's guilty, but I'm just trying to give people an overall perspective. Am I wrong, Laura, our legal person?

COATES: No, and remember, of all the things you named this was a very diverse prosecution. This has not all been Robert Mueller and the special counsel probe. Remember he is farmed out some cases. Other cases involving Trump University and even predates the time. I think Mueller even came on as special counsel. So the notion, this is all led by one single person who has a vested partisan interest is really absurd.

[23:10:01] This has been a diversified experience. And that tells that you if all these different people have a hand in it, people who are independent, people who are not part of the special counsel probe, well, that suggests to you that this is not the witch hunt that they're saying, it's not the singular unified unit. It's someone saying across the spectrum, we are all interested.

LEMON: Thank you for answering that question. I want to get to this guy. This is for you, Ryan. I want to play you something that Rick Santorum, a prominent supporter of the president said, when he was on with Anderson earlier tonight, talking about Michael Cohen and David Pecker's plans for catching and killing stories. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think the greatest damage has been done is Donald Trump doing what you just said, out there spinning different story after different story, not telling the truth and that to me is doing the most political damage right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. Ryan, the greatest damage to Trump is not telling the truth? Trump is not telling the truth? What do you make of that?

LIZZA: Well, look, you know, Rick has been a pretty vigorous defender of President Trump for the most part. So, you know, he is a former Senator. What Trump really needs to worry about are Republican Senator who are in office now, right? Because remember, at the end of the day, all the stuff we're talking about is very likely something that Congress will have to deal with, right?

And I think Trump's view of all this since the beginning of the investigation was, as long as Republicans in Congress stand by him, he has nothing to worry about, but just think about this period of 2016 basically from like the summer to December that we're discussing.

You have an investigation into whether they collude with the Russians to basically undermine the election. You have this campaign finance violation with Trump allegedly directing someone to commit a felony. You now have after the election is over, the Inaugural Committee possibly being involved in a pay for play scheme, then during the transition you have Michael Flynn talking to the Russians in something that has been aggressively investigated and possible criminal wrongdoing there.

We're only talking like a six-month period and there are like -- at least four major investigations into Trump and his allies' conduct. And by the way, in the middle of that all, he settled a fraud lawsuit on Trump University.

LEMON: Yes. Well, that is why I asked the question.

LIZZA: That is all before he became President.

LEMON: Yes, before he became President. Mark, I've got to ask you this. Considering what Ryan just said, but all of this is happening as a partial government shutdown is looming. They're looking for a new chief of staff. Democrats are going to investigate the -- Leader Pelosi said today she thinks Republicans don't have the votes to get a $5 billion border wall. Where is all of this heading?

PRESTON: It is headed to - I mean, very likely it's headed to a government shutdown. It could be averted at the very end. But the pressure is going to be on Republicans right now to try to work with Democrats to force Donald Trump to realize that he is not going to get all the money he wants for the wall. That is just not going to happen.

So, will Donald Trump try to make himself out to be the hero at the end of the day? That very well could happen a week from tonight, I mean, we could be having the same conversation, Don. Where Donald Trump just says you know what, it's Christmas. I think, you know, we should go home and we'll deal with it next year. That very well could happen, as well, but look, its Donald Trump so who knows.

LEMON: Whether he wants to be, it's his decision if he wants to be Santa or the Grinch. All right. Thank you, I appreciate it.

PRESTON: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Alleged Russian spy, Maria Butina pleading guilty to conspiracy in a D.C. Court today. What she admitted to and who else is being investigated. That is next.

[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Alleged Russian spy Maria Butina, pleading guilty today to attempting to infiltrate Republican political circles and influence U.S. relations with Russia before and after the 2016 presidential election. She has agreed to cooperate with federal investigators as part of her plea deal. A lot to discuss in this case.

Julia Ioffe is here, also Garrett Graff, author of "The Threat Matrix: Inside Robert Mueller's FBI and the War on Global Terror." Thank you both so much for joining us. So brevity please, because I have a lot I want to get to. This case is so interesting and so nuanced.

Julia, you first, the Feds say that Butina working to establish a back channel to Republican politicians to influence U.S./Russia policy. Alexander Torshin, a good friend of Putin was her handler. That was her handler. It's astonishing how many tentacles that we have in this pot to influence the 2016 election.

JULIA IOFFE, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Yes, that is kind of the Russian style of doing things. I remember back when I was reporting on this, former Obama administration official who was seeing all the intelligence coming out about this at the time said, you know, the Russians were really just throwing spaghetti at the wall and see what would stick.

And today you had former CIA Director John McLaughlin saying that this is kind of classic Russian spy craft. This is one of the three kinds of prongs of styles of attack that they do. So they basically trying to cover as much ground as possible just to make sure at least one or two strands of spaghetti sticks.

LEMON: Yes. So, Garrett, I want to play -- I know you have seen it, but I want to play it again. This is at this town hall in July 2015 when Butina was the first - she came out and asked Trump a question about Russian sanctions. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin. OK? And I mean we have the strength. I don't think you would need the sanctions. I think that we would get along very well. I really believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So given all that we know now, right, do you think that is fishy? What do you think of that moment?

GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, it's one of the particularly weird moments that again sort of seems to point at puzzle pieces we haven't yet seen. There's been no real concrete link between Maria Butina and the Trump campaign and the special counsel's investigation.

[23:20:06] Remember this was a case that was prosecuted by the Justice Department's national security division out of main justice in Washington which typically handles counter intelligence espionage cases like this, not Robert Mueller's office, but that seems to be in part, because of the investigation into her went on for so long that the FBI had been watching her since actually even before Robert Mueller was appointed, before the Russia investigation became what we now know as the Russia investigation.

So as Julia was saying, I mean, part of what makes some of these Russian intelligence operations just so interesting is how long they operate. Russia has a much longer time horizon that they use to measure the success of an intelligence operation like her.

LEMON: Yes, but Julia, you know, the plea agreements show that after NRA officials visited Russia in 2015 in that meeting with high ranking Russians, Butina told Torshin this, she said, we should let them express their gratitude now. We will put pressure on them quietly later. What do you think that could mean?

IOFFE: I think that means, you know, again, its Russians doing what they do. You gather some string, you get something on somebody. You have them beholden to you in some way and then you call in your chips when you need to. I also think, I have to say really interesting that in the plea deal that she agreed to cooperate on possible clandestine missions.

LEMON: Interesting.

IOFFE: What could that be about?

LEMON: Yes. Garrett, the charging document talks about, do you know what it could be about? Go ahead, Garrett.

GRAFF: Well, I was going to say, and that is sort of again is one of the interesting things to pull out of this is remember the way that will a successful intelligence operation operates is you don't have someone showing up on your doorstep saying hi, I'm a Russian spy and I would like you to spy on your country. John Brennan talked about this in his congressional hearing last year where he said, people stumble down a treasonous path sometimes without realizing what they're doing.

So what you see here is Maria and her colleagues like Alexander Torshin sort of befriending people in conservative circles, befriending people at the NRA such that after the election, they could come back and then it's not sort of some weird Russian asking you for a favor. It's your buddy, Maria, who took you on this great trip and takes you out to some really wonderful dinners along the way. And she is not asking for anything big, she is just asking for this small little favor to help curry some political influence here.

LEMON: Let me ask you, I was going to ask Garrett this, but I'll ask you, Julia. The charging document talks about the role of Butina's boyfriend, Republican political operative, Paul Eriksson and the advice he gave her all along the way in her plan. Talk about his culpability if he is in trouble.

IOFFE: I mean, I don't know if he is in trouble, but it certainly seems like he would be. Like he provided a lot of material help to Butina along the way, like Garrett said stumbling probably head first down a treasonous path. You know, he was providing her again according to the charging document, he was providing her with backgrounders on all these American officials who went on the Moscow trip telling her how powerful and influential each of them were.

That is just one example of the help he provided her. It's interesting that she kind of had him in a romantic relationship. We've seen this before with another Russian redhead spy, Maria Chapman.

GRAFF: Ana Chapman.

IOFFE: Ana Chapman, sorry. I should know my Russian spies better, but it's interesting that you know --

LEMON: There's a lot of names in here.

IOFFE: They really - you know, the honey pot has not gone out of fashion in Moscow and I think they know how western men see Russian women and they continue to dangle them like pieces of meat.

LEMON: Do you think you know, speaking of Paul Eriksson, Garrett, do you think investigators will try to flip him and what kind of information do you think he can provide? GRAFF: Yes, and you sort of get the impression they already are.

They have sent him a target letter saying that they intend to indict him or likely to indict him and one of the main reasons you do that as part of an investigation is to insure that your target has a really good criminal defense attorney lined up by the time that you knock on their door. And the reason that you actually want that is so that the attorney can sit there and explain to their client hey, this looks really bad for you. You should consider cooperating up front.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate your time. So we've got a shocking story of a 7-year-old girl from Guatemala, who died of dehydration and exhaustion just hours after being taken into border patrol custody.

[23:25:00] Who is to blame for this child's death?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, this is such a disturbing story. 7-year-old girl from Guatemala died of dehydration and shock last week after she was taken into border patrol custody. "The Washington Post" reported that she had crossed illegally into the United States with her father. Keith Boykin, Scott Jennings, Matt Lewis are here with me.

Good evening. I'm so glad to have you on. I wish we had something better to talk about. This is an important story. Scott, I'm going to start with you. How else do you describe this, except for heart breaking? I mean, border patrol saying that this little girl hasn't eaten or had water for several days, that is according to "Washington Post." It's all unclear if agents provided food or water once she was in custody. But this is really troubling, don't you think?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, it is heart breaking, it's troubling, it is tragic. I've got four little ones. The thought of them going without food and water is not something any parent wants to really think about their child dying in agony that way. I read the story. It appears that she was deprived of food and water during the journey and went into cardiac arrest and ultimately died a few hours after she was taken into custody.

So I think before we jump to conclusions about what the U.S. officials did, let's be clear about the facts here.

It was the journey and the ordeal she was put through that sounds to me like led to her death. But that doesn't make it feel any better for anybody on either side of the border. It's tragic. I wish it had been prevented.

LEMON: But they should have given her immediate medical attention once she was taken into custody, correct?

JENNINGS: Yeah, I think so. I think the U.S. government should say what steps were taken minute by minute when these people were taken into custody. But again, what we don't know is what was her condition, you know, at the moment she was taken into custody. It sounds like she was in pretty bad shape because of the journey and the food and water deprivation.

LEMON: Keith, I want to ask you, Scott is talking about the responsibility of who takes responsibility for it. How much responsibility do you place on it? You've been very critical of the Trump administration's border policy. Because many people say, you know, that her dad put her in that precarious position in the first place. So, what do you say about that?

KEITH BOYKIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, it's too early to say what responsibility the Trump administration bears for her physical condition and her death. But I think what we do know is that the people who are coming here are desperate. They're going through very difficult journeys to get here. And they're human beings. They need to be dealt with as human beings. The leadership of this country needs to treat them as human beings.

LEMON: Vulnerable kids and parents.

BOYKIN: Not to vilify them -- exactly.

LEMON: I mean, this child died, right?

BOYKIN: Right.

LEMON: They are vulnerable and, you know, I don't know what good does it do to try to place blame but maybe how we fix it. I just want to -- Matt, let me just give this to you. This is what Congressman Joaquin Castro tweeted.

He said, devastated by reports that a seven-year-old girl who was taken into @CBO custody died of dehydration and exhaustion. I'll be asking for a full investigation by the inspector general and Congress into the conditions and circumstances that led to her death.

And then Beto O'Rourke is also tweeting about it. He said, this incident is one more thing that puts a big spotlight on these detention camps. What do you say to that, Matt?

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think both of those things are fine. We need to find out what happened and we need to find out -- we need to ensure that our government acts appropriately. I think that Beto is getting a little bit close there to casting blame and maybe being out of his skis a little bit.

But look, I think everything that has been said, Scott and Keith both said, are true. I think that, you know, the journey is harrowing, but there's a reason people are doing it. And why would you risk this dangerous trek to try to get to this country? It says something about where you're coming from. I think it says something about this country, too.

But, look, we have to be a beacon of hope. It doesn't mean that we have to have open borders. It doesn't mean we can't have immigration laws. But man, we have to make sure that we are humane and compassionate. As Keith said, I mean, these are human beings. We can't forget that.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, everyone. I want you to stick with me though, because we're going to talk about an EMT suspended from his job after making racist comments on a white supremacist podcast. Wait until you hear what he said about some of the people whose lives were in his very hands. That's next.

[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A woman has been charged with two counts of assault after an ugly incident on a New York subway this week. During Tuesday morning's rush hour commute, 40-year-old Anna Lushchinskaya was caught on camera physically and verbally lashing out at another passenger after the two reportedly bumped into each other. I want to play this video for you, but I have to warn you, it contains offensive language.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop it. Stop, please.

(bleep)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please stop kicking.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call 911, please.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop being disgusting, oh, my god.

(bleep)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? What? What?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There is another video where she calls one of the guys on the train Mohamed Atta. He replies, I am Dominican, meaning one of the terrorists from 9/11, Mohamed Atta. This latest incident is part of a disturbing trend of increasing race-related violence. CNN's Sara Sidner is here with details of another disturbing story. Sara what in the world is going on?

SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don't you get tired of it? Don't you get tired of seeing this? It is so disturbing and the numbers are showing that it is actually up not incidents like this. We don't even count those. Hate crimes oftentimes go uncounted and incidents certainly often go uncounted. It really is disturbing.

This one has a lot of people talking and a lot of people worrying. It is about an emergency medical technician, 35-year-old Alex McNabb. He works in a Virginia town as an EMT. He has been frequently on a podcast as a co-host.

[23:40:00] That podcast is a white supremacist podcast, no other way to say it. It is put on to a Neo-Nazi website that a lot of people watch, who are interested in listening to white nationalist or white supremacist views.

But one of the particular things that he says is extremely disturbing because he is an EMT. He talks about a persona. His persona is Dr. Narcan. That's what he calls himself on the podcast when he co-hosts the podcast. And he tells of his travails as a first responder.

And he's talking at one point about a little black boy who is running around in an emergency room who needs to get some blood drawn. Here's what he says at one point in the podcast. He says, talking about this story of this child who needs to have blood drawn.

He says, so, guess who volunteered to take his blood? Dr. Narcan who enjoyed great immense satisfaction as he terrorized this youngster with a needle and stabbed him thusly in the arm with a large-gauge IV catheter.

He also talked about, look, when it comes to black folks, it's hard to find a vein because they're black. Now, keep in mind, this is a person whose job it is to comfort you, to try and help you at a time when you are probably at your worst. You're injured. You're in an emergency situation. You have called for help. You have called 911.

In a county that -- by the way, EMTs are so important because they lost their hospital recently. It closed. So, EMTs and people first responders have become extremely important for health care just in general. And you are talking about people as if they are sub-humans and it is your job to help care for them. So that's number one.

Now, we did try to get in contact with him. His response has been that Dr. Narcan is all a work of fiction. And he says he's the victim of a character assassination. That's his response. He won't talk to us. But he says that he feels that he's the victim of a character assassination.

Now, as far as his job at this particular first responder, this ambulance company, he is under investigation. He is on unpaid leave. And he is now being investigated by the Virginia, the state department of health. But think about this for a second. Here is a person who talks about black folks as not human. As sub-human. And he's supposed to be caring for them.

LEMON: Yeah. And he is a victim. Talk about the real snowflakes. Thank you, Sara Sidner. I appreciate that.

SIDNER: You're welcome.

LEMON: Are incidents like this a symptom of a rising hate in America? What has changed in this country to make people feel emboldened to spew hate speech? And what will it take to stop it? Keith, Scott, and Matt will try to answer those questions, next.

[23:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: According to FBI's statistics, reports of hate crimes in this country rose 17 percent in 2017. What's behind the disturbing rise in these crimes? Let's discuss now. Keith is back, Scott as well, and Matt joins us again. They all do.

So Keith, the EMT that Sara just reported about, you saw the story, said all those terrible things. They just keep coming. People who work in those sorts of professions, when you're on the front lines like that, these are the people who are supposed to be coming to help you in a crisis, and then you have those kinds of views?

BOYKIN: Yeah, I mean, it's not surprising. We had an incident last year in Ohio where another firefighter in that case said he was suspended from his job because he said he would rather help anyone else other than a "inward" person, I wanted to say that politely. This is a person who is paid to help and protect and serve our country.

We also have other incidents, other people who are not EMTs, not first responder. It's a part of the culture, a degrading culture in our society of hatred. Unfortunately, we've had in the past with George W. Bush or President Obama, Republican, Democrat, we've had presidents and leaders that tried to tamp down those instincts. We now have a president who doesn't try to do that.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen, I understand what you're saying. There's no polite way of saying that word. You know what I'm saying?

BOYKIN: Right.

LEMON: I actually think when you're doing a report like this, it sort of sanitizes it when you say that. It's a horrible word.

BOYKIN: Right.

LEMON: This guy evidently felt so emboldened. This is for you, Scott, that he was literally co-hosting a white supremacist podcast. I mean, why now? What do you think has changed in American culture? You don't think anything has changed?

JENNINGS: I don't know. Well, you know what, here's one thing. People -- we're always going to have hateful, stupid (INAUDIBLE). We have them, and you give them technology. If you give them a printing press, they'll write it down. You give them a video camera, they will record it. You give them a podcasting equipment, they'll put it out there. You give them a Twitter account, they'll tweet. You give them a Facebook account, they'll post it.

For some reasons, some people hateful and stupid, and say hurtful things. And they want people to know about it. I don't understand the destructive ideology that goes behind this. But obviously it exists and it has existed. I guess it will continue to exist. What we have to do is continue to shine a bright light on it. I'm glad this EMT was found out.

LEMON: Yeah.

JENNINGS: I'll be honest with you, there's a special place in hell for people who terrorize little children in a medical situation who are probably scared anyway with medical equipment.

LEMON: Yeah.

JENNINGS: And so as long as we continue to shine a light on it, maybe we can ferret out the people who hold these views and make sure at the least they're not in these positions to terrorize folks who are at their most vulnerable.

LEMON: There should be a special place in jail, too. I mean, other than just hell for that, right?

JENNINGS: Absolutely.

LEMON: The EMT, Matt, lived in a rural part of Western Virginia, OK?

[23:50:00] This thing happened right here in New York City that I showed. This is a woman on the subway shouting racial slurs while physically attacking a woman after she was bumped into by the crowd in a crowded train, right?

This is not just a red state issue. This is happening all over -- I mean, look at this. It's crazy. And then she called one of guys on the train Mohamed Atta. And he said, mam, I'm Dominican. And then she spat on him like -- this isn't just a red state issue. What is going on?

LEWIS: Yeah. You know, the (INAUDIBLE) lived in Queens and some of the worst race problems of, you know, of the recent decades happened in Boston. So, I think it's a mistake to think this is just a rural thing, this is southern thing or a mid-western thing or a country thing. This is a human problem and an American problem.

I think Scott has a point. In some ways, this is becoming more transparent. You know, we're seeing it because of technology. I think if you're a police officer, if you're -- I had an operation a couple of months ago. You're completely vulnerable.

I was put under. The doctors, they could have done anything to me they wanted to. I'm putting my life in their hands. You're incredibly susceptible at that moment. We need to hold them to a high standard.

And I think the answer here is dignity. That's what I wish that President Trump was talking about. I think if President Bush, maybe President Obama, they could be talking about it. But I think there is a conservative argument for a large umbrella of dignity. That could be dignity for the unborn child, that could be dignity against human trafficking, that could be dignity for a refugee or an immigrant.

It doesn't mean you have to have open borders, let's say, but it does mean you have to have dignity and compassion for people. And that is totally absent right now in our politics. And I think, as Scott said, this has existed long before Donald Trump. But I don't think he has helped matters.

LEMON: There's a conversation -- a longer conversation, Matt. I won't get into it now, about the whole open border thing. I've never heard one person say they want open borders, but I hear that a lot from conservatives. Listen, people have different ideas about how they think the border, the southern border should be protected. I've never heard anyone say the most liberal person, maybe there are some out there, but no one has come out and said, look, we just want everybody to come in. So, I don't know why you guys say that.

But I want to get to this because you brought up this current president. Throughout the 2016 campaign, Trump made a point. He used a specific phrase when talking about terror. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've had a lot of problems with radical Islamic terrorism, that's what I would say.

To solve a problem, you have to be able to state what the problem is or at least say the name. The name is there. It's radical Islamic terror.

The best way to keep foreign terrorists or as some people would say in certain instances radical Islamic terrorists from attacking our country is to stop them from entering our country in the first place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So when we talk about these incidents, some of them escalate, right, into incidents of domestic terror, he harped on that -- about that. When you talk about the massive right wing terror, if you look at the numbers, look at the stats, everyone, crickets.

BOYKIN: You're far more likely to be killed or harmed by someone who's a domestic terrorist here in the United States than from some foreign terrorist, that radical Islamic terrorists that Donald Trump likes t talk about.

When Trump was trying to vilify those group of people who are in the caravan coming to the United States just a few weeks ago in October right before the campaign, you can see the numbers right there on the screen to verify what I'm saying.

But while Trump was vilifying Muslims and Mexicans and immigrants, all these other groups of people, we had in this country, here in this very building, bombs, pipe bombs being sent to CNN and other organizations, news organizations and to individuals out who were being targeted.

We had in this very country domestic terrorists who are attacking people, synagogue, 11 people were shot and killed in a synagogue here in the United States in Pittsburgh. We were missing the boat, and I think we continue to do this because we focused only on this outside effort. We don't look at what's happening domestically.

LEMON: You got it. Thank you all. I appreciate your time. I love having this conversation. Let's continue the dialogue. We'll be right back.

[23:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: In this season of giving, we want to show you how you can help our 2018 top 10 CNN heroes continue their important work and have your donations matched dollar for dollar. Here's Anderson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I'm Anderson Cooper. Each of this year's top 10 CNN heroes really proves that one person can make a difference. And again, this year, we're making it easy for you to support their great work.

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LEMON: Such great people who can use our help. And if you know someone great who deserves to be a CNN Hero, tell us about them. Nominations for 2019 are open and we're waiting to hear from you. Go to cnnheroes.com to nominate right now. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.