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Don Lemon Tonight

Government Shuts Down for the Third Time; Too Much News is Bad for Trump; Trump Lashed Out At Acting A.G. Whitaker After Explosive Revelations In Michael Cohen Case; Is Chief Justice John Roberts The New Swing Vote On The Supreme Court?; Government Shutdown At Midnight; Stocks Tank After Wild Week In Washington. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired December 21, 2018 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Our breaking news, a partial government shutdown, just one hour away. And there is nothing stopping it now.

The House and the Senate, they adjourned until noon tomorrow, and the president does not have the money he wants for his border wall.

Last week, President Trump said he was proud to own a government shut down in the name of border security. But now he is trying to put the blame on the Democrats.

One source with direct knowledge of the negotiations say there is no quick end to this. This will be the first time in more than 40 years that the government shuts down three times in one year.

And there is more breaking news tonight to tell you about. Sources telling CNN that President Trump has lashed out at acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker, upset because prosecutors, who Whitaker, implicated the president in the Michael Cohen investigation. And the Supreme Court upholds a ruling to block President Trump from implementing new restrictions for asylum seeking.

It was a closed ruling, just 5-4, with Chief Justice John Roberts siding with the liberal judges. Could he be the new swing vote? There's a lot to talk about.

Phil Mattingly joins me now from Capitol Hill with the very latest on the midnight shutdown. We're getting close, less than an hour, Phil, the government is going to shut down. Where do we stand right now?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are negotiations and they exist, which given the current bar for success in governance was better than it was six hours ago.

But here's the reality and I think this is what's important to point out. Those negotiations have not come anywhere near a breakthrough according to sources that I'm talking to and the reality on the ground here on Capitol Hill is, look, you can look behind me, there's nobody here. Everybody has gone home for the night. They accept the fact there will be a shut down in an hour, and the way out of this is very unclear.

The talks behind the scenes I'm told tonight are still very far apart. White House officials that were up here, Vice President Mike Pence, Jared Kushner, incoming chief of staff Mick Mulvaney were trading possible ideas with Democrats, all of which have been rejected.

Up to this point, the base line from the Republican and White House side of things somewhere around 2.5, $2.6 billion in border security money. Democrats making clear that is nowhere near where they're willing to go.

So, the reality remains, Don, that as we enter into this shutdown, there's the deal in sight, and President Trump's demand for the wall, the $5 billion for the wall, remains what's dictated reaching this point. And it's where Democrats are not willing to come anywhere close to if they want to reach any type of agreement to end this.

LEMON: My goodness. So, I said in my open that they adjourned until noon tomorrow. But that doesn't mean that that's when a vote will happen. Do you know when the next vote could be in the Senate?

MATTINGLY: No, and I think that just kind of underscores the moment we are in right now. What we were told from senators that were leaving earlier tonight is, they were told they would get 24 hours' notice before any vote was set to occur.

So, I mean, that ground even if a deal is struck over the course of the early morning hours tomorrow, that they're not going to be back to vote anytime soon.

I think the bigger problem here that I've heard from both Republicans and Democrats is they don't know how this end. Right? The political incentives are aligned to the point where this is longer than shorter. Democrats have no incentive to move tight now. They feel like they have the winning hand here. They have seen the president say that this is his shut down, he owns the shutdown, and they don't believe there's any reason to make a deal.

From the White House perspective, they're in it now. The president promised that this was the fight that he wanted to have. The president promised this was the shutdown he wanted to have. If they blink, he would be caving.

And if you saw what happened earlier this week when Senate Republicans tried to put a bipartisan deal on the floor, and the president ended up undercutting them later on, that doesn't have a great track record here.

So, what people are saying right now on the Republican, Democratic side who are working on these negotiations is essentially, buckle up, this is going to take a while. We don't know when that next vote will be. We don't know when an agreement is going to be, we don't know if there's going to be any breakthrough on any negotiations anytime soon, Don.

LEMON: Wow. It is awfully quiet there. I only see Phil Mattingly and a couple statutes behind him. That's the only folks who are awake right now. Phil, thank you very much.

I want to bring in now Susan Glasser and David Sanger, the author of "The Perfect Weapon." good evening to both of you. Well, Susan Glasser and David Sanger they are in Washington and they're awake, and here we go.

So, Susan, you have a new piece entitled the year in Trump freak-outs. And you write, in part. You said, "When we look back on the 2018, it may not to recall all the crazy things that happened when Donald Trump was president. A year from now, it may appear as the quiet before the storm." Susan, come on now.

[23:05:05] SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I'm trying to give you nightmares, Don.

LEMON: You think this is just the beginning for chaos?

GLASSER: You know, I have thought that far for a long time. I mean, you know, think about how many events are happening just this week alone. We can't even hardly remember the whole extraordinary Michael Flynn non -sentencing. That was actually just earlier this week. It seems like a year ago.

But, I think, look, between the Mueller investigation moving towards potential conclusion next year, the Democratic takeover of the House of Representatives, the level of Trump spun up dysfunction and chaos, we're already seeing, I do strongly suspect that we are not seeing nothing yet and that in many ways, this will all feel like prologue to whatever conclusions to some of these events in particular, the investigations that we see in 2019.

But of course, you know, just because something is inevitable or even predicted, we've long known, for example, that things were headed towards some sort of a confrontation between Jim Mattis the defense secretary and President Trump, that still manages to be shocking and surprising in the way that it played out.

And I do think that when you see the president backed into a corner, he has escalated his behavior already in a way that does make me quite anxious when I think about what kinds of dysfunction, we might see playing out in 2019.

LEMON: You know what, David, Susan brings up a good point. I think the Cohen sentencing was the end of last week, right, and then there was some fallout the beginning of this week. And you're right. The Flynn thing was the beginning of this week. She's right, because even by the standards of the Trump presidency, this week has been bonkers. And I sense that more and more people are getting fed up with it. Do you agree with that?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you didn't even mention, Don, the market meltdown that was going on in response to this, which is one of the ways I think that many Americans feel it, the government shut down, of course, if it happens, as it now seems likely, if it dragged on, would be another one. You know, what struck me about this week is I agree with everything

that Susan said, and I think next year, you know, could well be crazier in crazy town, for sure.

But I think that one of the great oddities of this week is that Jim Mattis in that remarkable resignation letter that he turned out managed to hit the major themes, the issues that he believes the president and the nation need to be focused on.

What's happened to our alliances, whether or not we're focused on a rising China and an increasingly aggressive Russia, whether or not we can martial the rest of the world as sort of a force multiplier so that we don't have to be the world's policemen.

And what are we doing here? We are sitting, arguing about $5 billion for the wall. I'm not suggesting for a minute that controlling immigration isn't important. It is.

But if you go into even the Trump administration's list that they give to Congress each year of the major threats that face the United States, cyber, nuclear proliferation, China and Russia, what they're doing, even trade issues related, intellectual property theft and so forth, you won't even find the threat coming over the wall to be anywhere near the top of the list.

LEMON: Yes.

SANGER: And yet we've somehow managed to consume ourselves with this instead of what Mattis wants us to focus on.

LEMON: Earlier today, Susan, here's what the president tweets. The president said "the Democrats are trying to belittle the concept of a wall, calling it old fashioned. The fact is there is nothing else that will work and that has been true for thousands of years. It's like the wheel. There is nothing better. I know tech better than anyone. And technology. Where have we heard that before. And technology on a border is only effective in conjunction with a wall."

I know tech better than anyone. And of course, nobody knows more than Trump, remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think nobody knows more about campaign finance than I do.

Nobody knows more about construction than I do.

I know more about ISIS than the generals do, believe me.

Nobody knows more about environmental impact statements than me.

I am the smartest person. There was a great professor at MIT for 40 years, but I'm smarter than him. I'm smarter than everybody.

There's nobody that understands the horror of nuclear better than me. Nobody knows the politicians better than I do, believe me.

I understand the tax laws better than almost anyone. One of the great memories of all time. Nobody knows more about trade than me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Is it dangerous that a president thinks that he knows better than everybody about everything?

[23:10:00] GLASSER: I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question. Listen, you know, there's multiple levels on which we all listen to a compendium like that.

On the one hand, you know, as a mom, a parent, as a citizen, you know, this is the exact opposite of what you tell your kids, this level of braggadociosness of shamelessness, of brassiness, of ignorance is not the kind of thing that any of us I think would aspire for our children.

On the other hand, when you listen to it, I'm struck by the autocratic strain in so much of what President Trump has done. And I think that's the through line between many of these otherwise inexplicable actions is conflating his own sense of self, this aggrandized sense of self- and the idea that he knows better than anyone.

He doesn't need a four-star general like Jim Mattis to tell him about national security. He doesn't need Silicon Valley to tell him about technology. He believes that he knows better, and I think it explains a lot of the reason why he's much more comfortable on the world stage with autocratic leaders like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping in China, and Erdogan.

Let's not forget that many of these week's events were triggered by a phone call with the president of Turkey who, in many ways is a much more strongman type figure that Trump is more comfortable with.

LEMON: But most successful people I know in business, and I think most of us know, they will say I hired you, I hired people who know more than me or are smarter on me on certain issues, because they make me better. It's just odd to hear anyone say I know more about it because you don't. You just simply don't. You don't know what you don't know.

David, the acting chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney is a defender of the president now. But I want you to listen to an interview that CNN's (Inaudible) found of Mulvaney talking about the president's plan to build a wall. This is back in 2015.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICK MULVANEY, ACTING U.S. CHIEF OF STAFF: The fence is an easy thing to sell politically. It's an easy thing for someone who doesn't follow the issue very closely to say, that will solve everything. Build a fence.

A fence doesn't solve the problem. To just say build the darn fence and have that be the end of an immigration discussion is absurd and childish for someone running for president to take that simplistic view. And by the way, the bottom line, the fence doesn't stop anybody who really wants to get across. You go under, you go around, you go through it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, there, he said it. So, today Mulvaney was on the Hill pushing to get funding for the very wall that he said was silly.

So, Trump reportedly already -- he's already mad at him because of other critical comments that came to light.

SANGER: Yes.

LEMON: Is the chief of staff just a thankless job in this administration?

SANGER: No, there's one that's more thankless. It's called attorney general. Right. So, but the fact of the matter is that for the president, he doesn't really care, I don't think, that much what it is he gets as much as he cares what his base, what he can call it in front of his base.

And I remember early in the president's time in office talking to one of his aides who had been dealing with him on a lot of these issues and showing him maps and so forth. And saying, look, in this section, a wall may make sense. In this section, we can do it with electronic monitoring. In this section, we've got other technologies to go use, and the president's view was anything's fine, just call it a wall.

And you sort of saw that in his tweet today. But this really gets back to this fundamental question of what the opportunity cost is from focusing on this as our central national security issue.

You know, if we actually believe that ISIS may not have been fully defeated, that it's lost its territory, but there is still something like 30,000 ISIS fighters.

If we actually believe that a rising China or an aggressive Russia is a much bigger challenge even in the years that President Trump has left, are we burning up time and political energy here when you could be focused on those larger issues, which is what makes the successor to Jim Mattis so important.

Because it may be somebody who can come to the president and say here's what I believe the actual national security threats are, and here's our plan to address each one of them. Or it could be somebody who will simply get in line once in office and say whatever it is, Mr. President, that you lay out there, I'm out to go defend you and clearly that's what the president wants.

LEMON: David, Susan, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

GLASSER: Thank you.

SANGER: Thank you.

LEMON: The clock is ticking away to the partial shutdown less than an hour away. Just about 45 minutes. Leaders in Congress thought that they had a deal with the president to avert it, so who's the president really listening to? Right wing media? We'll talk about it next.

[23:15:02] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Federal government moments from shutting down, and one senator says he knows why. Republican Bob Corker told CNN that we have two talk radio hosts who influence the president. That's tyranny, isn't it. So, right wing media running the country right now.

Let's discuss, Brian Stelter is here and Philip Bump. Good evening, is Bob Corker right?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't think it's tyranny, but certainly this is kind of a Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter shut down. Sean Hannity is off, otherwise it would be the Sean Hannity shut down. We have heard all years how Hannity and others are the shadow chief of staff. And we are seeing that to be the case this case.

The feedback loop between Trump and Fox, between Trump and talk radio is as strong as ever because as he plays to the base more and more, that's his way of knowing what the base apparently cares about.

[23:20:03] LEMON: Yes, and you, -- so every lawmaker I have had on who's been confident, right, about the shutdown, I'm like are you sure, the president. I ask, yes, we're sure. I'm like, OK. Because we know. And you say the same thing. You have been saying that. You said it on this show, didn't you?

PHILIP BUMP, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON POST: I said it on the show, Donald Trump could have his head turned by conservative media. In March, there was this push to have a funding bill.

Donald Trump said he was going to step up and sign the bill, and there was huge backlash from Fox News and elsewhere, saying he shouldn't do this, he's cave in to Democrats, yadda, yadda, and at that point in time, he said I'm never doing this again, I hate this bill, so on and so forth.

STELTER: Right.

BUMP: And so, what we saw this week was it's not only -- it's not only Ann Coulter and Limbaugh, but it's Brian Kilmeade on fox Friends where Donald Trump watches religiously. And the problem is that as Brian says, there is this universe that talks to itself, which Fox News has been at the center of, and Donald Trump is the first time there's been a prominent Republican elected official who comes from that world.

Donald Trump used to be on contract on Fox News. He was on Fox & friends every week. This is his world. He lives in this world, but he's always been somewhat detached of the reality of the political moment. So, when he turns on his TV and he sees these people saying these things that for years he is sort of installed as being political reality, it changes his mind.

LEMON: Brian, I'll let you respond. I just want to point out, though, that you have a piece, Philip has a piece that's in the, that you write, you said, your analysis shows that Fox News and Fox Business mention the wall more than any other network.

BUMP: Yes, two to one, Fox Business two to one over CNN.

LEMON: So, he can't let the cheer leaders down, basically, that's what you're saying.

STELTER: Interesting. And you had a great piece today about how Sarah Sanders is out there saying everyone in America wants a wall. All of America, that's a quote, "all of America wants a wall."

LEMON: Not at all.

STELTER: Do you want a wall at home? Most Americans do not want a wall. And by the way, there's already walls, there's already fences, there's already bollards. This entire debate is a bunch of B.S. But to the extent that we're going to build more of a wall, most of American does not want that to happen. Most Americans does not support Trump's proposal.

And yet, Sarah Sanders on Fox can say, all of America wants a wall, and because she's in an echo chamber, it feels true.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But let's put this up.

STELTER: Right? It feels true. The Fox.

LEMON: I'll let you keep talking. Fifty-seven percent of Americans oppose the wall according to a CNN poll.

BUMP: Yes.

STELTER: Which pretty aligns with support for Trump or not. Many of these polls are a proxy for, do you like the president or not. Do you want him to succeed or not. The wall is another part of that argument. But it is notable how detached from reality--

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: -- so much of this debate really is tonight.

LEMON: Yes.

BUMP: What's amazing is after that piece, very quickly, I get an e- mail from a woman who says, actually wrong, all Americans do want the wall. It's like, because all that happens is you see these poll numbers, fake news, push it aside, the reality is what me and my friends say what I hear on Fox News. And if your entire universe is that. Your friends and your Fox news and a conservative media.

STELTER: It can seem really scary, Right?

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: It can seem really scary because it seems like an invasion. There's no invasion but it can seem that way on Fox.

LEMON: Let's listen to what Fox says about the wall and we'll talk more. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What a stunning turn of events. Remember, it was just last week the president of the United States was in the Oval Office with Chuck and Nancy and he said I would be proud to shut down the government.

Building the wall is worth shutting down the government and now it's like you know what, we're looking at other departments for the money. If he agrees to the C.R., which would continue funding the government at the current levels, he won't get at point anything for the wall. And the sky-high spending from Congress which he ran against when he was running for president, it's going to continue. So, he loses, and the Democrats will win everything they want.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People who voted for him and wanted wall and went to the polls to vote for that wall, they want to know how he's going to do this. And they want to know why he seems to be softening his stance this morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So. here's the thing. People who voted for him, that's 30 some percent of the country. That's not everyone. Again, 57 percent of people say that they don't want a wall.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: And what I find--

LEMON: And if you're watching, as you said, if you're watching Fox News, you believe that, you believe that there's this invasion, this caravan--

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: Dire threat.

LEMON: -- this dire threat--

STELTER: Yes. Right.

LEMON: -- when most people, the most illegal immigration we know from people who come over and over stay their visas.

BUMP: That's right.

LEMON: So.

STELTER: And yet the facts, those facts are not so widely in circulation on Fox's pro-Trump talk shows. Yes, they have real reporters but these pro-Trump talk shows is where the president gets a lot of his information and warps his reality.

The pressure he heard from Fox and Friends, from the other shows earlier this week, did seem to have a real effect and I think we're in one of these feedback loops right now where we're seeing action being taken as a direct result of what's being heard on radio and TV.

LEMON: It's interesting, I mean, I think they are challenging some of the people who come on. Right?

STELTER: Yes, that's true.

LEMON: They are now. If you watch Fox and Friends, but still.

STELTER: But the narrative is pretty clear.

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: The narrative is bigger than any single question or answer that's heard on Fox and the narrative is that this is an urgent crisis, as Stephen Miller said earlier in the week, a national security crisis.

[23:24:59] Now, we know with our own eyes that's not true, but it can feel true to this part of the population.

LEMON: OK. Before you respond, I want to play this. What we saw then, that was just Wednesday. Today, Fox and Friends took another hit at Trump for pulling out of Syria. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's giving Russia a big win. Vladimir Putin praised him. He also is doing exactly what he criticized President Obama for doing. He said President Obama is the founder of ISIS. He just re-founded ISIS, because he got 30,000 men there and they're already striking back with our would be evacuation. The president has got it. He's really on the griddle with this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUMP: I mean, it's pretty amazing to see Sarah Sanders listening someone from Fox News talking and shaking her head in disagreement. I mean, we never see that. And the reason why, Fox News rarely says things.

But I will say just to Brian's point, it's not that the Fox hosts themselves are being insincere. They too are in this bubble, they too are part of this conversation, part of looking at the evidence that's coming across, that's filtered out for things that aren't necessarily what the bigger picture is in America.

And so, it is not the case necessarily that they're doing Trump's bidding. But they too are part of the same world from which Trump himself face.

STELTER: Yes. The message is be afraid, be very afraid. But it is remarkable six weeks after the midterms where Trump ran on border threats, ran on the caravan, and lost in a big way, that loss didn't sink in. That loss wasn't really felt, apparently by Trump or his allies in the media. As a result, they're back fighting a border battle on the eve of Christmas.

LEMON: OK. Here's what you don't have. You don't have nuance, you don't have facts, you don't have information, what you have are slogans, build that wall, lock her up, and you have that. And when you only have that, it's thin, it's weak, and it's crumbled.

As I said earlier this week, I think this week and the whole Mattis thing and Flynn, rude awakening for a lot of Trump supporters this week. A lot of folks. I got to run. Thank you. We'll be right back.

[23:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: More breaking news tonight. Sources telling CNN that President Trump has lashed out at the acting attorney general over revelations that came to light in the case of Michael Cohen, that's his former lawyer, who has been sentenced to three years in prison, revelations about Trump's alleged actions.

I want to bring in now, Douglas Brinkley and Neal Katyal. Good evening to both of you. Neil, that's where we will start with this breaking news. What do you say about these conversations that have reportedly been happening between the attorney general and the president?

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL, LAW PROFESSOR AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: It's devastatingly bad news for Trump and for Whitaker both. Whitaker was installed as the acting attorney general and has always had a constitutionally tenuous claim to that position since he never, you know, was confirmed by the Senate.

The attorney general is a very, very big job. It's a big deal. And this guy was a constitutional nobody and really the president's lackey. And the only reason he was put in really for that job was because President Trump wanted someone to control the investigation into him. That's what it looks like.

And now we're seeing devastating evidence that that is true, that basically Whitaker has been the subject of lashing out by Trump on two occasions about the professional jobs done by the southern district of New York Justice Department prosecutors.

So look, I think the bottom line here is even if Whitaker, you know, could have been acting attorney general, even if he could have supervised the Mueller investigation, because of the ethics advice he got yesterday which seems dubious on its own, but in any event, now he can't. It's over for him. I mean, he compromised, Trump compromised Whitaker entirely by having these conversations.

LEMON: Interesting. So Doug, our reporting that the president wants to know why more isn't being done to control the prosecutors, do you see this as the president putting pressure on Whitaker to shut down the investigation, any investigation that might implicate him, control the prosecutors?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Yes, Donald Trump is desperate. He's looking for any way out of his bind. Whitaker by anybody with any intelligence knows must recuse himself. He cannot be involved with the Mueller investigation. He's a compromised man.

I have nothing against him personally or his previous career. He's somebody who worked in Iowa and beyond in making a name for himself in the legal world. But alas, he cannot weigh in at this juncture when he's that compromised.

Meanwhile, Donald Trump is trying to, I think, Don, just always have up his sleeve the possibility of ending the Mueller investigation. Everybody says he won't. Those same people said he may not shut down the government. Those same people say, you know, that he wouldn't pull out of Syria. Donald Trump is unpredictable and he's looking for a way out of his bind before the full Mueller report comes out.

LEMON: And yet Mitch McConnell won't sign off on legislation that will stop him from shutting down, that will protect Robert Mueller. Neal, I want to bring you in. Can we talk about the Supreme Court? Chief Justice John Roberts sided with the liberal justice today to uphold a block on the Trump administration's asylum ban. Is Roberts the new swing justice?

KATYAL: Well, Roberts, because of Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation just almost (INAUDIBLE) is the new swing justice. There are five justices appointed by Republican presidents, four by Democrats. We have grown up with the world in which the Republican-nominated justices have controlled the Supreme Court, indeed since 1971.

[23:35:00] So almost for 50 years, we have had that happening. But nonetheless, Republican-nominated jurists like Harry Blackmun with Roe versus Wade and so many other examples did vote with the Democratic appointees to the court. So today's vote suggests the chief justice is now, yes, that swing vote, at least in this particular case.

LEMON: Very interesting. I mean, Doug, in November, Chief Justice Roberts issued a rare rebuke of President Trump's criticism of calling a judge who ruled against the administration an Obama judge. Here's what he said and this is a quote. He said, "we do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them."

So, Roberts defended this judge, U.S. district Judge Jon Tigar, and then he upheld his decision today. That has got to get under the president's skin, right?

BRINKLEY: No doubt about it. Roberts now has a lot of power. He's replacing Kennedy. He's the deciding vote. I thought what was heroic that just occurred was Ruth Bader Ginsberg at 85 years old casting her vote, decisive vote on this before going to Memorial Sloan Kettering Hospital to get cancer growths removed from her lungs. She is a true profile in courage and a heroin to the American people.

But Roberts is now the bane of Donald Trump. When you vote 5-4, everything for Trump's immigration, and Roberts stuck it to him again, second time in the last month.

LEMON: Yeah. Ginsberg is critical. We are told that she helped cast the deciding vote from her hospital bed, Neal, undergoing surgery today for an early stage lung cancer. She became a feminist. She's a cultural icon. How important is she to the Supreme Court right now?

KATYAL: I can't overstate it. I mean, she is deeply, deeply critical, and she is tough as nails. I can tell you, you know, I was unfortunately in court the day after her husband died, and she showed up in court and was sharp as a tack.

And, I mean, this is an extraordinary woman. You know, she should be celebrated by people of all political sides. Her best friend on the Supreme Court was Antonin Scalia. You know, she's a model, really, for what our American democracy is all about.

LEMON: Yeah. Doug, during her 25 years on the court, Ginsberg has never missed a day of oral argument. President Trump tweeted about Ginsberg just a few hours ago and he said, wishing Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg a full and speedy recovery. She has no plans to go anywhere, but she is 85 years old. What would the potential impact of her retirement during the Trump presidency be?

BRINKLEY: Well, people need to pray that she recovers from her surgery and that she stays in the Supreme Court, particularly on Democrats or people with a more liberal bent because if Donald Trump really does make history, if he ended up -- god forbid, something happening to her, having three Trump justices on the Supreme Court.

You know, Don, when we talk about Roberts, it reminds me in some ways of Earl Warren when he was appointed by Eisenhower to the Supreme Court in 1954 and shocked a lot of people for doing something for civil rights, Brown versus Topeka.

We're seeing Roberts now, I think, on issues of immigration standing up the way Warren did for civil rights. It surprises you, but Roberts is turning out to be a very leading figure, one of the leading likes, I think, of our time right now because he is willing to stand up to Trump.

LEMON: Doug, Neal, thank you for your time.

KATYAL: Thank you.

LEMON: We are now less than half an hour away, really just about 20 minutes away from a government shutdown. Hundreds of thousands of federal employees affected. How did we get here and is a solution in sight? [23:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The government is about to partially shut down. Over 420 essential federal employees will continue to work without pay. More than 380,000 will go on furlough. Nine federal departments will close. Seventy-five percent of the government has already been funded, but some crucial departments will be impacted by the shut down, including Homeland Security, Justice and Interior.

So joining me now is Catherine Rampel and Stephen Moore to discuss. Hello to both of you.

STEPHEN MOORE, CNN SENIOR ECONOMICS ANALYST: Hi, Don.

LEMON: This is serious business. So, do you agree, Stephen, with President Trump shutting the government down over the wall amid the current market turmoil no less?

MOORE: I don't want to see a government shutdown. No, I don't want to see one. I think Donald Trump feels very strongly about the principle here. I heard your previous discussion about this issue about whether it makes sense to build the wall, whether the American people want a wall.

I could just tell you when I worked on the presidential campaign, it was from the start of the campaign until the end, it was the first thing he always promised the American people, that I will build the wall and it became symbolic.

I think something that was lost a little bit in your discussion about this earlier, it's not just about building the wall, it's about securing our border and making sure that drug runners and criminals and terrorists can't come across our border. I think it is a --

LEMON: If you say that, then you have to be honest about exactly what the border wall, a border wall will and won't do. And it won't do what this president promises it will do. You can ask any expert and they're going to tell you --

CATHERINE RAMPEL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You could ask Mick Mulvaney.

[23:45:00] LEMON: You can ask Mick Mulvaney. It's not the end all, be all.

RAMPEL: We have this audio now from a couple of years ago where even he said this was a silly, simplistic, childish proposal that nobody who's thought even for a few minutes about this issue believes that this will, in fact, stop the supposed crisis of undocumented immigration.

What he didn't mention of course in that interview although I believe, Don, you mentioned earlier in the show, is that about half of undocumented immigrants are visa overstays. So people who came here legally. So unless that wall is high enough to stop airplanes, it doesn't really seem like it's going to be terribly effective.

MOORE: I think that's a speechless argument, frankly. I mean, look, yes, it is true that half of the illegal immigrants overstay their visas and we have to do something about that, but that's not an argument against building the wall. We have to do something about the -- look --

LEMON: It's not an argument against building the wall but where is the same energy with people saying stop that plane, stop that plane? Hold on, Catherine.

RAMPEL: And also beyond that --

LEMON: Hold on, Catherine. Stephen, so where is that argument?

MOORE: Well, we have to do stuff about internal enforcement of the laws as well. I mean, it's very problematic. I agree with you, guys, that you got a number of liberal states and many liberal cities like San Francisco become sanctuary cities and sanctuary states that allow illegal immigrants to come in, overstay their visas --

RAMPEL: This is such a fake crisis.

MOORE: -- and don't leave. And so I agree with you, guys, that's a big, big problem. But, look --

RAMPEL: I never said it was a big problem. I never said it was a big problem. This was all about xenophobia, ginning up the base.

MOORE: Right.

RAMPEL: No, I'm saying that if the goal is to block undocumented immigration, then a border wall is not going to solve the problem. I don't actually believe that this is some major crisis. If you look at the number of undocumented immigrants, they have actually been going down over the years, not up. So this was really just about throwing red meat to the base. It was about creating an other to rally around during the 2016 campaign.

LEMON: OK, stand by. We will continue. I got to get a break in. We'll be right back.

[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We are back down. This week, the Dow Jones Industrial Average suffered its biggest weekly plunge in a decade. And the Nasdaq is now officially in a bear market.

Back with me now, Catherine Rampel and Stephen Moore. This is more your expertise, Stephen and Catherine. So, here we go. So Catherine, this is for you. All right, everybody, I want you to take a look at that. Look at that. I'm going to explain it.

President Trump, he loves to boast about the success of the market under his watch. And he has had some success. But what the red line on this graph shows is growth of the S&P 500 from his inauguration day until today, December 21st. Just over six percent. That's not bad, actually.

The red line, you know what that is? The red line is President Obama with over -- the blue, excuse me, the blue one, with over 47 percent growth. So, is it smart, Catherine, for this president to brag about the success of the stock market?

RAMPEL: It was never smart for the president to tell the American public to judge the success of his presidency based on growth in the stock market, because as I have said on this show many times before, presidents don't control stock markets. Of course, they don't control the economy, they don't control the market.

Second of all, this comparison that you're showing does not actually look so flattering to Trump even if he did control the stock market. And third of all, of course, what goes up can also go down. So it wasn't particularly forward looking for Trump to say, hey guys, look at your 401Ks, given that of course the market has taken a nosedive in recent weeks in part of course because of uncertainty related to his trade policy.

Again, he doesn't control markets entirely. No presidents ever does. But he certainly not helping things by introducing a lot of uncertainty over whether he's going to escalate tariffs on China, for example, whether there will be a deal or whether he's in fact going to have tariffs in other countries as well.

LEMON: OK, quickly, before I bring Stephen in, you were on with me earlier this week. His market gains were at 12 percent. So they literally been have in just a few days.

RAMPEL: Yeah. They are not doing well. I think some of what you will see is some concern about, you know, the forecast going forward, the FED raised rates this week of course which was widely expected. The market had largely priced that in. But the FED also downgraded this forecast for next year for GDP growth.

LEMON: OK.

RAMPEL: So there is some concern about that and some concern in general about whether there are some risks in the economy and whether that may be filtering through.

LEMON: OK, let's bring in Stephen in now. Stephen, the market took a big hit this week. The Dow with its biggest weekly plunge in a decade. If they continue to slide, does Trump own that?

MOORE: It was a horrible week. As you said, one of the worst week in history for the stock market. By the way, just on your chart, next time you do it, remember the stock market rose 700 points the day after the election. You really have to start that chart from the day that Trump was elected and not inauguration day.

RAMPEL: It is still going to be less flattering for Trump than for Obama --

MOORE: Yeah, but the market, when you taken into account what has happened since election day, it is up about 18 percent, not six percent. But, look, I mean, I take your point, the market has been horrible this year and has been horrible this week.

By the way, I love stocks right now. If you look at price earnings ratios for those who are investors, stocks are about as big a bargain as they have been any time in the last 20 years just in terms of earnings.

[23:55:00] I think there has been a disconnect, Don, between the real economy which is very strong. You know, every indicator is still really positive in terms of manufacturing, construction. Employment growth is good. Consumer confidence has been good. Christmas season for retailers has been really good especially for the online. So, you know, I just don't see -- I think there was an overreaction to the absolutely --

LEMON: I got 10 seconds.

MOORE: -- malpractice by the FED to raise rates. And by the way, if this was priced in, Catherine, why did the stock market fall, you know, 900 points after he made that announcement?

LEMON: We'll have to answer that another time --

MOORE: OK.

LEMON: -- because we're coming up on a government shutdown. Thank you both. I appreciate it. Partial government shutdown is now just minutes away. It's the third one this year alone. We're going to have the latest.

[00:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)