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Don Lemon Tonight
Nancy Pelosi's Challenge to Control New House Democrats; American Arrested for Espionage in Russia; Political Aides Gets a Raise While Government in Shutdown; Elizabeth Warren Running for President in 2020; Shadow of Hillary Clinton Looms Over 2020 Female Democratic Candidates; Will Kevin Hart Host the Oscars?; Homophobia and America's Black Community. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired January 04, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: It's also day two of the new Congress. And not only is Nancy -- Speaker Nancy Pelosi dealing with the shutdown, she also has to walk a very fine line on impeachment talk in her party.
She may not want to talk about it, but some members of her party, well, they sure do. Especially freshman House Democrat Rashida Tlaib who called for the president's impeachment in pretty strong terms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RASHIDA TLAIB (D), MICHIGAN: And when your son looks at you and says, mama, look, you won. Bullies don't win. And I said baby, they don't, because we're going to go in there and we're going the impeach (BLEEP).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, the president was not happy. Though I should point out that "The Wall Street Journal" reports he opened his meeting with Congressional leaders today with a profanity laced rant about impeachment. He followed it up by criticizing the congresswoman for her choice of words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I thought her comments were disgraceful. Using language like that in front of her son and whoever else was there, I thought that was a great dishonor to her and to her family. I thought it was highly disrespectful to the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: As if he's never used foul language before. And Speaker Pelosi was quick to make that point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY PELOSI, HOUSE SPEAKER: I probably have a generational reaction to it, but in any event, I'm not in the censorship business. I don't think that, I mean, I don't like that language. I wouldn't use that language. I don't, again, establish any language standards for my colleagues. But I don't think it's anything worse than the president has said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is much bigger though than a dirty word, one dirty word. This is about the "I" word and Nancy Pelosi faces a very real challenge here. Can she clamp down talk of impeachment before it consumes Washington? Let's discuss. Susan Glasser is here, Matt Lewis, Doug Brinkley. Good evening. Doug.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Yes, good evening.
LEMON: So when the president brought up impeachment at the meeting with Congressional leaders today, Pelosi insisted the meeting was just about re-opening the government. That's how the leader feels, but what about the rank and file?
BRINKLEY: Well, you know, Don, there's going to be the rank and file using the "I" word screaming impeachment. It's going to happen daily, weekly. She's going to have to -- she said temper it down. You also have the specter, its 2020 presidential election gearing up right now.
Candidates like Elizabeth Warren and others are starting to run. Tom Steyer, who's made a living out of pushing for impeachment, so there's no way you're going to get the impeachment word and sentiment out of the Democratic Party, but I think all Democrats need to give Nancy Pelosi some respect.
She is a historic figure. She is like Eleanor Roosevelt or Madeleine Albright. She's a giant in women's history. She knows what she's doing and she's asking for a few months here to get the government re- opened, to deal with this wall issue once and for all.
And to move the Democratic party forward in an optimistic way and let the Mueller report be the Mueller report and maybe talk about impeachment down the line in a more serious way but not right now in January while over 800,000 workers are unemployed.
LEMON: Matt Lewis, the congresswoman, Tlaib, is not -- she is not backing down. She is calling -- from her calling the president a cuss word. This is what she told our affiliate. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TLAIB: I know that if I was a man it might have been differently. I know that for me, I've always been this way. I mean, I think no one expects me to be anything but myself. The girl from southwest Detroit, the little sass and attitude. I think you know, President Trump has met his match.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Is she right? Has this president met his match? MATT LEWIS, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't know about that. I
think this is a race to the bottom, right? I mean, we have cultural degradation. Donald Trump has vulgarized politics and it continues rather than trying to be the opposite of Trump, Democrats I believe are emulating his worst qualities.
But interestingly, I think there are so many parallels here. I have to tell you, you know, having covered the Republican side, the conservative side, and warned about what was happening, there's a phenomenon called the tragedy of the commons. And what that means is that there's an individual incentive for people to do certain things that actually collectively harms their group.
And I saw that with Republicans, right? With Ted Cruz, for example, saying controversial things, supporting his own government shutdown. Individually that helped Ted Cruz. It generated buzz and attention and publicity for him.
Collectively, it hurt the Republican brand and the conservative movement. And I think we're seeing a similar parallel here. There is a benefit for Democrats to push impeachment individually. I think collectively, it's very bad for them.
[23:05:02] LEMON: OK, so listen and it's probably not a popular opinion for people who are watching. Just because the president does it, doesn't mean that you have to do it. And at this point, especially in the middle of a government shutdown, when you have so many people who are out of work, Democrats, well, everybody needs to be strategic at this point.
And those comments while no one is a word police, the president certainly says a lot of outrageous things and uses profanity, but they are not productive right now. Am I wrong, Matt?
LEWIS: I'm sorry, are you're talking to me? Look, I don't think it's productive. I think that Democrats -- I would hope that they would try to actually be the opposite of Donald Trump, right? Be more responsible and be more civil. But again, I think what we have here today --
LEMON: Why would you give the opposition more ammo is what I'm saying? Why would you hand them ammunition?
LEWIS: I think the reason is why I just explained, the tragedy of the commons, right.
LEMON: Yes.
LEWIS: Even though collectively, Don, you're thinking strategically, how should the Democratic Party act if they want to win in 2020? That is a very different question than how should a rank and file Democratic congresswoman act who wants to get buzz and publicity.
LEMON: OK.
LEWIS: That's the fundamental problem. Up until now, Democrats have been very good and Nancy Pelosi is a very strong leader at keeping their people in line, their rank and file members. It was Republicans who couldn't do it. I think now it's the other side.
LEMON: Everybody on the same message, listen to the leader, fall in line. That's what, you know, Republicans did when it comes to Donald Trump. Remember, none of them liked him but they certainly fell in line once he became the nominee and the president. As we can see, they're falling in line, they're doing good.
Maybe Democrats should learn from that if they want to be strategic at this point. Susan, her first comment said I don't think that, you know, this would be different if she weren't a woman. Do you think that claim is correct, using that -- if that colorful language has been used by a man?
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, look, certainly there's plenty of precedent for profanity in politics as somebody said today, you want to hear a lot of politicians swearing, listen to the tapes of LBJ or the tapes of Richard Nixon and you'll hear a lot of swearing.
Of course, there was the famous incident with Vice President Dick Cheney swearing at Senator Patrick Leahy. I mean, come on, let's not be shocked that there's gambling going on here in Washington. I think, you know, again, I find some of this whole debate about, you know, the "I" word being brewed publicly to be a little bit silly.
You can find a rank and file member of Congress. This is a big body, you know, it's -- there may well be a race to the bottom but you know, you can find crazy outliers on the left and the right in the House of Representatives and you always have been able to. And that's not really what's going on here.
I find it really significant that the president understands it seems to me now, the peril that he is in of actually being impeached by the House of Representatives. The fact that he began his private meeting on the government shutdown, we're headed into the third week, potentially one of the longest if not the longest government shut downs in American history.
And he began this meeting with congressional leaders with a profanity- laced tirade about impeachment. He is increasingly talking about it. He is in my view, in real peril of being impeached by the House of Representatives at some point this year. It's a silly gotcha game to talk about whether Nancy Pelosi should be broaching it now.
We're waiting for the results of the Mueller investigation. That's what any party would do. It's what they should do. There are individuals, of course, who believe Donald Trump is unsuited for office. They'll be pressuring her, but you know, a newly sworn in freshman member of congress, she doesn't dictate policy.
LEMON: But let me ask you. I want you -- again, she doesn't dictate policy but -- so when you -- this is not just about politics, right? This is also about public opinion, which is where many races are won and lost. GLASSER: That's right.
LEMON: And why would you give other people ammunition by saying, see, I told you, they're out to get this president. Donald Trump is right. It's not a smart strategy. People can say whatever they want. Salty language -- when you're an activist, be an activist. If you're going to be a strategic politician, then be strategic about it and you just cannot blurt out and say things just because you feel that you have the right to say it.
You've got to think about what you're doing. You have to go with the strategy and you should take your cue from the leader. Listen, let's talk about another -- the other "I" word and that's indictment, right, because Nancy Pelosi is saying your open question about whether the president can be indicted.
Do you think that she'd prefer the investigations around the president to end in indictments and not impeachment, the other "I" word? Susan, I'll give that to you and then I'll move on.
[23:10:01] GASSLER: Well, look, I mean obviously, Nancy Pelosi and like the rest of us doesn't know exactly what the investigations are going to turn up and I think that's an important point to underscore. She's well aware of the political risks to her and to her entire caucus of a political and partisan impeachment.
The lesson of the three previous impeachment attempts, serious impeachment attempts of U.S. presidents is that partisan impeachments fail ultimately. And so I think Pelosi is well aware of that history as she should be. And you know, I'm not sure that an indictment by Trump's own Justice Department against Justice Department policy is realistic at this point.
And so you know, we're really left with the fact that the constitution doesn't allow for any form of accountability by a president who has gone rogue, who is outside the law except for basically, you know, a nuclear weapon of congressional weapons, and are they going to choose to use that against Donald Trump or not?
LEMON: Yes. Douglas, I've got to ask you this. I want to ask you about the Russians arresting American Paul Whalen on charges of espionage. The president has yet to say one word about his arrest. What do you think -- why is that?
BRINKLEY: Well, that's what we all want to know, why is Donald Trump never criticizing Russia, always cozying up to Putin, seems to have no nerve to take on any kind of verbal battle with really a country that works against us all the time.
You know, the big thing that I think the Democrats are going to be able to do here is now that they have Congress, is going to be investigate Trump's Russia connection. What is this connection that he's had? What are his business dealings?
And the big Holy Grail here isn't impeachment. It's the tax returns. Democrats have been itching to get at them, as you know, Don. And I think that moment may be here in the next couple of months. So you're going to see congressional investigations start merging with the Mueller investigation and Donald Trump as going to have a very difficult 2019.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you all. I appreciate it. This is going to have to be the last word. Hundreds of thousands of federal employees are going without their paychecks. At the same time, the members of the president's cabinet are set to get raises. Not a good look, is it?
[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: No end in sight to the partial government shutdown. The president even suggesting today that it could go on for months, if not years. Let's discuss now, Catherine Rampell and Stephen Moore, both here. Stephen is the author of the book "Trumpnomics." Good evening to both of you.
STEPHEN MOORE, CNN SENIOR ECONOMICS ANALYST: Hi Don.
LEMON: Hello.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hey.
LEMON: So Kathryn, 800,000 workers going without pay all across the country, but from the president's perspective, they're on board with shutting down the government, asking the landlords, you know, go easy. He thinks they'll do it. What gives here?
RAMPELL: Look, Trump came into office claiming that he was going to represent America's forgotten men and women who had been forgotten by the Washington elites. And clearly that has not been the case. Instead, he is brushing off their concerns.
His own office of personnel and management is suggesting that they offer their services doing chores in lieu of rent. Clearly, he is not taking to heart the actual day to day week to week economic challenges of being a worker in this country.
LEMON: Steve, how does a proposed border wall help federal worker who are struggling because of the shutdown?
MOORE: Well, look, this could get resolved this weekend. I mean, I hate this government shutdown. I don't think it makes any sense. I mean, both sides should stop acting like children, get together, split this down the middle, you know. Democrats want $1 billion, the president wants five, you know, $2 or $3 billion and get it over with and get these people back to work and get the government functional again.
It is interesting to me that we have, you know, so many hundreds and hundreds of thousands of nonessential government employees. Look, I have lived in the swamp for 30 years. These -- it's almost -- it's interesting to me, you know, we're talking about, oh, my goodness, these workers are going to go without a paycheck for a couple weeks.
Look, I don't think this is going to last hopefully more than a few more days, but we will see. But the point is, private sector workers --
LEMON: He said years, Steve. His own words.
MOORE: You know that's not going to happen. That's Donald Trump just shooting off his mouth. My point is, you know, it's so interesting --
LEMON: So you don't take the president at his word?
MOORE: Not on this one, I don't. But this is an important point. Look, private sector workers face layoffs. There are strikes. You know, you talked about coal miners. They lose their jobs. That happens in the private sector all the time.
You know, federal government employees never lose their job. In fact, it's almost impossible to fire -- I worked for the federal government. It's just impossible, Catherine --
RAMPELL: That's not true.
MOORE: -- to fire no matter how bad the worker is. You know, there are some exceptions but they have basically lifetime tenure.
RAMPELL: That's not true.
MOORE: They have lifetime tenure with their jobs and they get -- did you see the report that came out last week that the average federal worker, that's 40 days of paid holidays, leave and other kinds of -- nobody in the private sector gets that.
LEMON: I don't see where -- hold on, Catherine. Why don't you work as a federal worker then if it's so great?
RAMPELL: Yes.
MOORE: Yes, because I hated it. I think the civil service system breeds mediocrity. It needs to be fixed. Look, I'm not -- there are a lot of great federal employees.
RAMPELL: If it's such a great -- if it's such a great job, if it's such a great job, they have had to go without pay twice now within the last year for no good reason other than Trump throwing a hissy fit. So I'm not exactly sure this is the most -- I'm not sure this exactly the most secure job in the world.
Maybe people go into this area in part because they want to be public servants. In part, because there they're supposed to be more job security, but the two shutdowns we have had in the last year alone clearly suggest that whatever compensating differential they would normally have no longer exist. And these are people who generally earn less than they otherwise would especially if we're talking about higher wage workers.
MOORE: Wait a minute, Catherine, these workers are going to get paid. I live in Washington. I talk to a lot of federal employes.
RAMPELL: You don't know that. MOORE: I have family members. Wait minute --
RAMPELL: First of all -- first of all, you don't know that.
MOORE: -- I know family members. You know what, they are -- a lot of them. Hold on. Let me make my point. A lot of them are treating -- you know what they are treating this like? A paid vacation because it is for a lot -- now, some of them -- they will get eventually paid, right. So, they're going to get paid vacation.
RAMPELL: First of all, we don't know they're getting paid. Second of all, they may have to make a mortgage check in between now and the time --
MOORE: Maybe for some, that's right.
RAMPELL: and in between now and the time that Congress maybe bestows them back pay. Third of all, there are tons of workers who are on federal government contracts who are never entitled to this sort of back pay. And these are often low wage workers. People who work in food services, janitorial services, people who clean bathrooms.
LEMON: Steve.
MOORE: What you're talking about is --
LEMON: Steve, you said it was -- hold on. You said it was a paid vacation. The TSA workers, the people who work at the airport still have to work. They're not on vacation but they're not getting paid. The very people who guard this administration --
MOORE: That's true.
LEMON: -- and people in Washington, the Secret Service, they're not getting paid. It's not a paid vacation.
MOORE: I'm talking about people of nonessential agencies like the Department of Commerce and Department of Education that don't do much therefore useful.
[23:20:03] And one of the things I think is so interesting is how vast the federal bureaucracy --
RAMPELL: I think the American public might feel a little bit differently about their tax refunds not coming back.
MOORE: The Department of Commerce. What in the world is the Department of Commerce --
LEMON: They don't do anything useful?
RAMPELL: The department of -- first of all, the Department of Commerce oversees the census bureau which I think you would argue is pretty useful considering they produce all of the data or almost all of the data. MOORE: What about the Department of Education? Why don't we just give
that money to the parents and get rid of the -- I mean, look, the point is we have a vast federal bureaucracy --
RAMPELL: You know you're an economist. You're supposed to care about data. I'm sorry. I need to stand up for the census bureau workers of America. You are supposed to care about data and suddenly --
MOORE: I do care about -- I do care about workers. This is going to last a few days and they'll be back on the job.
RAMPELL: So, you have just labeled everyone in the --
LEMON: One at a time pleas.
RAMPELL: You have just labeled everyone in the commerce department as nonessential. They're the ones who do that data collection. They are the ones who produce the numbers that you love to cite. Whether we're talking about, you know, any supposedly gang busters economic data that's come out. You know, they're the ones who collect that data on behalf of lots of other agencies.
LEMON: Steve --
MOORE: And they will get paid and they'll be back on the job.
RAMPELL: So, I find it pretty ironic that --
LEMON: Last word, Steve.
MOORE: But you know, we have -- do you know, Don, today we have more federal government employees than manufacturer workers in America. I mean, we've got a vast bureaucracy. It's time we start -- you know, Trump talked earlier this year about maybe, every agency cut by five or 10 percent of their federal bureaucracy. It's about time we do that because all of that money, these jobs, every federal government job depends on a private sector worker paying taxes to pay them.
LEMON: If you want to save money then why are we increasing the deficit and giving big corporate tax cuts?
MOORE: Well, because the corporate -- Don, did you see the news today? We had the best blockbuster jobs number like in ages. We've got economy booming right now --
RAMPELL: Yes.
LEMON: That's fine, yes, but you didn't answer my question.
RAMPELL: And you know what's interesting?
MOORE: -- tax cuts.
LEMON: Deficit continues to grow.
RAMPEL:: If the surveys that produced that jobs report had been done one week later, all of those numbers would have been wiped out entirely.
MOORE: But those workers will -- they'll be put back on the job.
RAMPELL: Because we would have had zero job growth.
LEMON: I've got to go. I got to go.
MOORE: We had more federal tax revenue in 2018 than any other year.
LEMON: And then I asked you about the deficit.
RAMPELL: Not adjusted for inflation.
LEMON: OK.
MOORE: Most tax revenue in American history in 2018 --
RAMPELL: Not adjusted for inflation.
LEMON: I've got go. Thank you. So here's a question. Do women with presidential ambitions have to run against Hillary Clinton before they run against President Trump? My next guest says yes, and she will tell us why.
[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: After announcing a presidential exploratory committee earlier this week, Senator Elizabeth Warren kicked off a possible 2020 run tonight in Iowa, speaking to a packed crowd. She is the first of some prominent Democratic women considering a challenge to President Trump. So let's discuss. Annie Linskey is here. She has written about this for "The Washington Post." Hi, Annie. Thank you so much for joining us.
ANNIE LINSKEY, CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, THE WASHINGTON POST: Hi there.
LEMON: So let's talk about the piece that you co-wrote for the "Washington Post" entitled "Before You Run Against Trump, You Have to Run Against Hillary if you're a Woman." Talk to us about what that means.
LINSKEY: You know, Don, when Elizabeth Warren announced her candidacy this week, she was just immediately compared to Hillary Clinton. With, you know, commentators with some news stories and even some Democratic activists saying, I'm a little afraid she's too much like Hillary to vote for.
And so that got me thinking about this notion of does every woman going to be held to this standard. And when you start looking around, you can see that this is a standard that Republicans already tried to impose a hurdle. They tried to impose on women running in the 2018 cycle that just wrapped up months ago.
And you also, looking down the road, you can see there are some women, Kristin Gillibrand is one who conservatives are also trying to create into Hillary mini me, so that, you know, women all have to sort of -- yes.
LEMON: Can I ask you something, Annie? So let me ask you -- so you think it's strategic that conservatives are doing it. But when anyone is a first, right? Hillary Clinton is a first to get to where she got. Barack Obama was a first.
Don't people always compare them -- compare other people to firsts if you were like -- if there's another black candidate who runs they're like oh, it's the new Barack Obama. Is he going to be like Barack Obama? Is he going to have that much -- whether it's fair or not, I'm just asking the question.
LINSKEY: Yes. We don't really know because we haven't had another black candidate running for office from the Democratic Party yet.
LEMON: But you know what I'm saying. They're going to say -- they're going to compare others to Hillary Clinton because she was the first. I mean, she really did break a glass ceiling.
LINSKEY: I think what's so -- she did, but I think what's so surprising about this is in the entire 2016 campaign cycle, which, you know, you covered and I covered, Warren was considered the anti- Hillary. She was the more appealing version of Hillary. She was more down to earth. She was more liberal. She was more bold. She was more whatever you didn't like about Hillary. Warren was that person.
And now suddenly, the minute Warren, you know, raises her hand and says hey, I'm going to do this too. Now she's like oh, is she too cautious? Is she, you know, is she too blonde and too, you know, in her late 60s? I mean, the actual -- you know, this comparison was not as drawn the same way before Warren was actually running.
I got you. I got you.
LINSKEY: So, you know, in that way, I think there's that objection (ph).
LEMON: So, more than 65 million people voted for Hillary Clinton. That's nearly 3 million more than Donald Trump who by the way is the president. More than any presidential candidate except for President Obama who we just talked about, yet the main narrative is, you know, was she an unlikable candidate. Why is that?
LINSKEY: Right. Well, I mean, I believe that many regarded Donald Trump as an extremely flawed candidate and somebody who would not have been as difficult to beat as he was. And Hillary Clinton certainly did have some deep flaws that were separate from her gender. Well, not to say her flawed --
LEMON: Yet, the more people liked her than this guy. More people liked her than this guy. More people voted her.
LINSKEY: But not in the right places.
LEMON: Yes, you're right. LINSKEY: Yes, but I mean, we now all know the way how the rules are
played. I mean, I think that is a Democratic talking point, sure, but the fact is, Hillary Clinton's campaign knows how the rules are played and so did Donald Trump's campaign. So you can always run up votes in the city if you want to make that case, but you know, she had to play by rules.
LEMON: It's a fascinating is article in the "Washington Post."
LINSKEY: But I know. I think that's fair.
[23:30:02] LEMON: Yes. I've got to run. It's a fascinating article.
LINKSEY: But you also don't see women -- yes.
LEMON: Sorry for the delay.
LINSKEY: Thank you.
[23:30:00]
LEMON: It's called, "Before you run against Trump, you'll have to run against Hillary, if you're a woman. Annie Linskey co-wrote it. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Have a good weekend.
LINSKEY: You, too.
LEMON: Thank you. The controversy over Kevin Hart's decade-old homophobic tweets that cost him his Oscar hosting gig heating up again tonight. We're going to tell you what he's saying now, and how the Oscars are reacting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Can we talk? Remember that? Comedians used to say that. Joan Rivers used to say it. And the reason I'm saying it is because we want to talk about another comedian. Kevin Hart. So, this is something that's important to me. So can we talk about Kevin Hart?
And it's important to me. It's important to the LGBT community and it's important to the black community. And I am a proud member of both. So I feel obligated to speak out on this issue. I see problems that need solving and they need to be addressed, and conversations that we need to have.
And I have to start with what has been going on with Kevin Hart. He stepped down from hosting the Oscars last month after tweets from 2009 and 2011 resurfaced with derogatory language referring to gay people and disparaging comments about sexuality.
[23:35:02] But it's not just tweets. Hart used to talk about making sure that his son wasn't gay in his stand-up routine. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HART, AMERICAN COMEDIAN: Every kid has a gay moment, OK? Every kid. When it happens, you got to nip it in the bud, you got to stop it right there. Hey, stop, that's gay. I turn back around to check on my son again and a little boy was grinding, on my son's ass.
(LAUGHTER)
HART: He was like this. I didn't know what to do, I panicked. I knocked them both down.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Here's Hart telling his side of the story to Ellen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HART: The next morning, after a day full of congratulations and celebrations, I'm hit with an onslaught on social media of my past coming back up again. Literally the next morning.
ELLEN DEGENERES, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST: Uh-huh.
HART: Not even a full 24 hours to glow in the glory of Kevin Hart is hosting this year's Oscars. And when it happened, you know, my first -- my first thought is I'm going to ignore it. I'm going to ignore it because it's 10 years old. This is stuff I've addressed. I've talked about this. This isn't new. I've addressed it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So, let's walk through that. Kevin Hart did put out a twitter apology after he stepped down from hosting the Oscars. Kevin said that he has addressed his homophobic jokes in the past, but what about the notion that there were apologies?
Well, Vulture is an entertainment news website from New York magazine. They did an investigation and found all the times that Hart addressed any of the things that he may have done to offend gay people. What they did not find was an apology or the words "I'm sorry." We couldn't find one either. And if you can find one, honestly, feel free to send it our way and we will handle it.
It is true that some of his old jokes had been addressed. In 2015, Kevin told Rolling Stone that he wouldn't tell homophobic jokes anymore. He said that he wouldn't tell them anymore because, and this is a quote, the times weren't as sensitive as they are now. OK? Sensitivity though is not an apology.
And remember, he said the academy gave him an ultimatum. Apologize or don't host the Oscars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HART: I just got a call from the academy and that call basically said, Kevin, apologize for your tweets of old or we're going to have to move on to find another host. Talking about the tweets in 2009, 2010. I chose to pass on the apology. The reason why I passed is because I've addressed this several times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, so when given an opportunity to apologize again, Kevin said he wouldn't, so no Oscars. For many especially -- for many in the gay community, but especially in the black community, OK, the twitter apologies or explanations on Ellen have fallen flat. I'm sure you've seen what folks are saying, if you haven't check it out.
To many, they seem insincere and that he has somehow turned himself into a victim instead of acknowledging the real victims of violent and sometimes deadly homophobia.
Kevin, if anything, this is the time to hear other people out. To understand why they might have been offended. And I don't see any meaningful outreach to the LGBT community. Not that I -- not that I know of. Maybe you do it privately. If you do, then I congratulate you, but nothing that you have spoken of. And now, you want the conversation to end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HART: Now, all of a sudden, it's a little darker because the conversation is about me hosting Oscars. The conversation is about Kevin Hart's tweets from 10 years ago and homophobia. I would much rather say I'm sorry again and walk away because I'm -- I want to be done with the conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Walking away right now, that is your choice. But many of us really need to keep the conversation going. It's life or death. And someone like Kevin Hart with one of the biggest megaphones in the world can be a leader, the ultimate change agent.
He can help change homophobia in the black community. Something Kevin's old twitter jokes addressed but in the wrong way. So take the tweet where he said that he would break a dollhouse over his son's head if he found him playing with it. He said that's gay. That was a joke to Kevin.
[23:39:59] But the truth is, that is a reality for many little boys in the United States. Somewhere, a black dad is beating his black son. The same way it happened to my friend, Oscar-nominated director Lee Daniels, who through his TV show "Empire" portrayed how as a little boy, his dad threw him in a trash can for wearing heels. Took him out of the house and threw him in the trash can.
That's a reality for a lot of little boys. Those views of the LGBT people within the black community have consequences. So think of this, OK? We're about facts here. This is a news organization. The Center for American Progress says that 44 percent of homeless gay youth are black. That's huge.
Remember, black people only make up 12 percent of the U.S. population. Among homeless transgender youth, 62 percent of them are black. Those kids were likely kicked out of their homes or had to run away because of who they are and because of how our community treats them. And we have to talk about outreach.
Ellen, a trailblazer and respected leader in the LGBT community, she really is, she almost lost her entire career for coming out, for being a trailblazer, doing it first. She gave Kevin the opportunity to tell his story on her show. That is an olive branch if I've ever seen one.
She said that she forgives Kevin and thinks that he should host the Oscars. But honestly, Ellen doesn't speak for the whole community. We need to speak up for the young black people, especially young black men, kids in the LGBT community.
I'm a gay man. I don't know what it's like to be -- I'm a gay black man. I don't know what it's like to be a white lesbian. I don't know. So, listen, if someone called me and they had an issue, say, hey, Don, you don't know what it's like to be a lesbian, you don't know what's it's like to be a white man, you don't know what it's like to be a woman, I would listen to them.
So I'm saying, these issues need to be addressed, especially when it comes to black youth in our country because they need to know that they have value and it's OK to be who they are. And people get -- are giving passes. We in the African-American community, we have to stop low key cosigning homophobia. It is not cool. And we won't tolerate jokes that tell those youth otherwise.
We need to talk about how people who may have messed up can become allies, as well. Because apologizing and moving on does not make the world a better place for people who are gay or people who are transgender. Being an ally does.
We have this. This is new tonight. Variety is reporting that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and ABC, the network that broadcast the Oscars is open to Kevin resuming his role as host if he signals he wants the job.
So Kevin, no one is against you. No one said that you should be fired or any of that. What they want for you is to bring light to this, to be an ally. So it is your chance right now to do the right thing, to change minds, and possibly save lives.
So joining me now is Sarah Kate Ellis, the president and CEO of GLAAD. Thank you so much for joining us.
SARAH KATE ELLIS, PRESIDENT AND CEO, GLAAD: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: So let's get this straight. You never -- GLAAD never called for him to step down, did he?
ELLIS: No, we never called for him to step down. We actually called for him to step up. We thought -- we think and still think that this is an enormous opportunity for him to use his voice and his platform to take away from the homophobia that riddles our country and to share and educate people on his evolution if there is an evolution from being homophobic to not being homophobic now. And so we hope that he can still step out and step up.
LEMON: Then he said he felt that he was being targeted. Was he referencing you or internet trolls? What? Because I don't recall again you guys ever saying he should be fired. Only that he can be an ally and bring light to the subject.
ELLIS: And we need allies more than ever now. So, I think we've always wanted to work with him. We have an open invitation to him and his team that we would be happy to work with them.
LEMON: What did he say?
ELLIS: We haven't heard back. But, you know, we look at this as an opportunity to build bridges.
LEMON: Right.
ELLIS: We don't want to take anybody down.
[23:45:01] He would be a wonderful host. And if he has evolved, we -- there's so much good that he could do with his platform and talking about, you know, some of the tweets that he's had. He's had over a dozen anti-LGBTQ tweets that are horrific. We could -- he could dissect some of that and help people understand how he evolved.
LEMON: It's tough because if you look back at anyone's past, right, we've all said and done things that we would be embarrassed by. No one is perfect. You understand that, right?
ELLIS: I completely get that. You know, I think especially being a gay woman, I completely understand that. Coming out is very hard and you get rejected time and time again. And people evolve. You know, your parents evolve, friends evolve, co-workers evolve. And so oftentimes, LGBTQ people are very open to the evolution of people and the acceptance.
LEMON: OK, you said being a gay woman, were you surprised that Ellen took the stance that she took?
ELLIS: I wasn't surprised. I think she offered a platform and an opportunity for Kevin to have the conversation and to once and for all put this to bed. And this isn't a tough conversation, but it's owning what you said and talking about how -- what the dangers are that, you know, over 40 percent of homeless youth are LGBTQ.
LEMON: LGBTQ. Even more so than that are black LGBT, right?
ELLIS: Then the numbers shoot up. It's disproportionate. But I also want to say that, you know, the FBI just came out a month or two ago with their hate crimes report. Hate crimes are up 17 percent against the LGBTQ community. We're a marginalized community that needs the support of allies. And so if someone is saying that they potentially are an ally and has done harmful things in the past, it's a big opportunity.
LEMON: Listen, I have to run because I'm going to talk more about this on the other side here, but it's tough because when you talk about these things, people go, oh, you know, Don Lemon or Sara Kate of GLAAD goes after Ellen or goes after Kevin. No one is going after anyone. We're simply discussing a topic that we think is important and the way people reacted in these situations.
ELLIS: Yeah. I mean, I've been really firm at GLAAD about this. We do not feel -- we are not going after Kevin Hart, period, end of story. We feel that he had an opportunity or has an opportunity to step up and not step down, to step into this and have a conversation.
LEMON: Yeah. One thing that I want to talk more about and I didn't get a chance to talk to you this time but about racism in the gay community --
ELLIS: Yes.
LEMON: -- that we really need to address.
ELLIS: It needs to be addressed, yes.
LEMON: That's one of the big things. Right. Thank you so much.
ELLIS: Thank you.
LEMON: I really appreciate you coming on.
ELLIS: Thank you very much.
LEMON: Good luck. Thank you. We got a lot more to say about Kevin Hart and the broader problem of homophobia in the black community, so stay with us.
[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: More now on Kevin Hart, his past anti-guy remarks, the Oscars, and Ellen Degeneres. A lot to talk about with Joseph Pinion, Charles Blow, and Nischelle Turner. I'm so glad you all are on. This is a very sensitive and important subject.
Nischelle, I'm going to start with you, because this obviously emanated out in Hollywood and that is your beat. There has been significant backlash against Ellen for advocating for Kevin Hart to host the Oscars. Ellen doesn't speak for the LGBT community as a whole, right? No one speaks for everyone, every community as a whole.
NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Right.
LEMON: She is a trailblazer. Many in the community look up to her. Does she give Kevin Hart a pass?
TURNER: You know, in some ways, you know, yes. I think she did give Kevin Hart a pass. But I think what she felt like she was doing was standing beside her friend and trying to right a wrong and trying to use her platform as a way to do it. Whether or not she succeeded in that, I'm not really sure. I mean, there was significant backlash against her, especially on social media last night with a lot of people saying, Ellen, I'm going to pass on this one. No, thank you. I don't think so.
LEMON: And people are writing about it, especially about homophobia in the black community.
TURNER: Absolutely. There was a really interesting article written today in The Hollywood Reporter by (INAUDIBLE) saying that he doesn't believe that Ellen Degeneres is the one that should have had that conversation with Kevin Hart because what he was specifically speaking to Kevin Hart was that he was afraid his black son --
LEMON: Right.
TURNER: -- would be gay. That speaks to a bigger problem of homophobia in the black community. And he felt like somebody else should have been sitting down with Kevin, asking him those questions and having that conversation with him because it should have gone deeper.
LEMON: Let's talk about that, Charles, because there is a certain stigma when it comes to homosexuality in the black community. You have experiences growing up?
CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think, if you grew up in a black community, you understand that there are certain taboos around certain subjects. But I think this issue is slightly different in my mind. There are two issues here. There is, what should the Oscars do? And then there is, what are your personal responsibility to yourself morally?
So Kevin Hart has a moral responsibility to himself, to figure out where he went astray in this and to direct that. You do that for yourself. If you apologize about something, you do that for yourself. It's a separate thing as to whether or not the public and the marketplace owe you any absolution or restoration. They don't. they actually don't.
You apologize because you need to do that for internal work. The other person does not owe you an acceptance of that apology. In fact, if people feel aggrieved, they have the absolute right to continue to feel aggrieved. And you don't necessarily -- there's no right to host the Oscars. There is no right to make millions.
The public grants that. The marketplace grants that. And so I think that those two things are operating kind of separately. In addition to that, the Oscars have to examine what they do. Look at all the rest of your comedians. They always pick comedians. A lot of comedians have made horrible, homophobic, racist comments in the past. Are you treating all of them the same?
LEMON: So before we move on, do you think, because there's a distinct racist element when it comes to homophobia in the black community. Is this something that Ellen may have a blind spot or that she didn't take into account or doesn't have that experience? JOSEPH PINION, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No. I think that it is an American problem. This is not an Ellen problem. I think on some basis level, this isn't even a Kevin Hart problem. I think that this notion that somehow that homophobia or racism does not exist and, you know, malign groups is ludicrous. We are all a reflections of problems that people readily admit exist.
LEMON: Before that, there's homophobia in every group, right? Specifically, because he's talking about his black son and he says, I have an issue with that as a black man, what have you. That's why we're talking about it in these terms. Listen, I'm going to say this and I've said this over and over.
People will get upset with me when I talk about homophobia in the black community. I am a black gay man. That is my experience. I think Kevin Hart was speaking for a whole lot of people in the black community when he made those remarks and -- listen, I don't know how he feels, he apologized after stepping down. I don't know how he feels now, but I do know that that is real and that people are damaged by it.
[23:55:02] There are actually black fathers who are beating their black sons because they're gay. My doorman told me a story today. We were talking about this as I walked into the building. Go on.
BLOW: I think a lot of things are connected in how we are constructing masculinity as it relates to black people, right? Black men do have a legitimate gripe that black masculinity is under assault. The problem becomes when they conflate that attack with natural expressions of people being queer. They consider that could be a continuation of that attack.
If you're black, all of us are under assault. When we deconstruct that and say, there's nothing wrong with this and it is not -- this part of an expression of humanity is not an assault on your masculinity, then, we can start to deconstruct some of the ways that we, as parents, as fathers, as community of black people and black men, treat other black men who happen to express a different sexuality than our own.
LEMON: Nischelle, let me ask you because there is -- I always say that as people of color, we have to stop low-key cosigning homophobia in our community.
TURNER: Yeah.
LEMON: And I know that you feel a certain way about that and you had a certain epiphany.
TURNER: Yeah, I did. Listen, we all like to think that we're evolved people, correct? We like to think that we -- especially if we come from a group of maligned individuals and oppressed people. We like to think there is no way we could do that to someone else. You and I were having this conversation where I said I had an evolution of my own when it came to homosexuality.
I always thought I was open-minded. I didn't have prejudices. And I remember the first time I saw two men kiss. I had a visceral reaction. And I was so ashamed of myself because I really had to sit with myself and say, why did I do that? Why did I react that way? I'm not homophobic.
But we all really need to dig deep. That comes from what we're talking about, this bigger conversation, where throughout your life, sometimes communities of color, you're fed things or you're taught things or you hear things at home that may sit with you. And even though you think you're bigger than that, they still haunt you.
So I think that that's one of the things. To bring it back around to what we were talking about with Kevin that he was saying, yeah, I had those things happen.
But in the interview with Ellen, one of the things he said was, I have been doing the work since I said that. I have been evolving and I've been showing it through my actions and the man that I am today. And I would hope that people would say, OK, he said those things, but what has he done in those 10 years since to make himself a better person? Do we see that manifested today?
I think people can evolve. I think that this is an important conversation to have. It breaks my heart that we still have to have it in 2019, but we do.
LEMON: Yeah. We are speaking, though, as people of color, from our own experiences.
TURNER: Absolutely.
LEMON: And I feel that I have to be able -- who else could do this but me? Who else is in this position to have this conversation but me?
TURNER: Amen.
LEMON: And so I think that if Ellen wants to have a conversation with me, if Kevin wants to have a conversation with me, if anybody wants, if the academy wants to have a conversation with me --
TURNER: They should.
LEMON: Anybody. They should. Nobody is out to attack. This is what we do. We discuss issues.
TURNER: By the way --
LEMON: Yes, go on.
TURNER: Kevin Hart is going to host the Oscars this year.
LEMON: That's what I think. I think that he is going to host and I hope he does the right thing when he does host. Thank you all. I appreciate it.
TURNER: Thanks, guys.
LEMON: And thank you all for watching. Our coverage continues.
[00:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
