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Don Lemon Tonight
Trump to Visit the Southern Border; Newbie Congresswoman Takes a Swipe at Trump; Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Says There's No Question Trump is Racist; Kevin Hart Apologizes to LGBT Community; New Allegations of Abuse and Sexual Misconduct Against R&B Artist R. Kelly. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired January 07, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon.
President Trump will address the nation tomorrow night in a prime time speech from the Oval Office. It's his latest attempt to make his case on border security and the wall.
Sources are telling CNN that the president's advisers told him tweeting and speaking off the cuff wouldn't be enough to convince Americans to support his wall. But the Democratic chairman of the House Judiciary Committee says this about the Oval Office address.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JERROLD NADLER, (D) NEW YORK: I expect the president to lie to the American people. Why do I expect this? Because he has been lying to the American people and his spokespeople continue lying to the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president will also travel to the southern border on Thursday. But the clock is ticking because we're just about an hour away from day 18 of the partial government shutdown. The shutdown the president once said he'd be proud to own. Remember that?
And while the president focuses on his wall, 800,000 federal employees are not getting paid. Some of them are going to have a really tough time making ends meet. And unfortunately, it looks like there is no end in sight to this mess.
Let's discuss now. Former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent is here, CNN Political Historian Douglas Brinkley, and April Ryan, the author of "Under Fire: Reporting from the Front Lines of the Trump White House." They all join us.
Good evening to all of you.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Good evening.
LEMON: Charlie, the bottom line is there is no end in sight as I said to this government shutdown because the president isn't getting his money for the wall. But I just want you to remember this. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are going to build a great border wall.
It'll be a great wall. Mexico's going to pay for the wall.
Mexico is going to pay for the wall.
Mexico will pay for the wall.
And Mexico is going to pay for the wall, and they understand that.
Mexico is going to pay for the wall.
And who's going to pay for the wall?
Who's going to pay for the wall?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mexico.
TRUMP: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mexico.
TRUMP: So, I get a call from one of the reporters yesterday, and they said the president of Mexico said they will not under any circumstances pay for the wall. I said, the wall just got 10 feet higher.
Who's going to pay for the wall?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mexico.
TRUMP: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mexico.
TRUMP: It may be through reimbursement but one way or the other Mexico will pay for the wall.
I don't want to cause a problem, but in the end -- in the end Mexico's going to pay for the wall.
They're going to pay for the wall and they're going to enjoy it. OK? They're going to enjoy it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Charlie, where's Mexico?
FORMER REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, it was always absurd for the president to even suggest that Mexico was somehow going to pay for this wall. What does the president plan on doing? Sending the armed forces down to Mexico City, raiding the bank of Mexico, holding them up? I mean, this is just crazy. It was never a credible statement to begin with. And now the chickens are coming home to roost.
And just as importantly, I'm very concerned about this suggestion that the armed forces, the military is going to be under an emergency basis compelled to build a wall, which they do not have the authority to do. The armed forces can build, last I checked, a total of 37 miles on the southern border at the Goldwater Range. That's it.
And I think the president needs to explain to the American people tomorrow night just what his border security plan is, how many beds border patrol -- I mean, how many detention beds, how many border patrol agents, how many -- how much many miles of access roads, how many miles of fence? We haven't heard any of this. I don't think the president's particularly capable of speculating (ph) at this time.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Surveillance. Agents.
DENT: Yes.
LEMON: On and on. How do you plan to do that?
DENT: Correct.
[23:04:58] LEMON: April, sources are telling CNN that Trump's aides are telling him that the whole build a wall slogan is not having the impact that it once had since he used it so often.
APRIL RYAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
LEMON: So, what do you think we're going to expect to? What do you expect tomorrow?
RYAN: Well, from my sources, my good Republican sources, they're telling me that the president's favorite immigration guru, Steve Miller, is writing the speech. I understand that a part of the speech will include a comparison to the Israeli wall. I'm hearing that the president had to put that in there to appease some of those who are on Fox.
This is going to be a very interesting night, to see how the president moves forward. I hear the speech is -- it's -- the president will be reading. But it's not as cohesive and coherent, I hear, as it relates to immigration policy, sound immigration policy. This is about a wall. This is about a wall to keep brown people out. That is a problem, especially when immigration is an issue for this nation and you have immigration issues on various fronts, not just the southern border.
So, the president is going to try to sell this, the Steve Miller plan, and he's going to compare it to the Israeli wall.
LEMON: OK. So, Douglas, let me bring you in. Because there's a very interesting tweet by David Axelrod. He tweeted, he said, "I can't think of a less effective format for @realDonaldTrump than an Oval Office address. He's terrible at reading off a prompter, stiff, wooden, and unlike his stand-up act there's no crowd to rev up, no reporters to dog, no room for ad libs, and a requirement to be brief." Does he have a point?
BRINKLEY: He does have a point, Don, and the fact that I don't think Donald Trump is going to be very effective. I mean, the American people overwhelmingly don't want the wall. He had two years to get it done with a Republican Senate in Congress. He's now shut down the federal government.
We keep using the figure 800,000, Don. But that's just the employees, all of their families and then -- you know, you're talking about millions of Americans being affected, people flying with TSA, you know, getting the flu, not showing up. There's going to be problems on the border because of the government shutdown. There's not one Congressperson on any of the border states that likes this whole wall boondoggle idea.
But what I'm concerned about is the networks are carrying this because we have a state of the union coming up. And the networks are supposed to carry that. But there's a rebuttal after the state of the unions by the Democrats.
This is a political stunt Donald Trump is doing tomorrow night, and I think the Democrats should be able to follow Donald Trump with a five- minute explanation of their side of the government shutdown and why they are so opposed to the wall.
LEMON: Yes. And they will do that. They're going to get their rebuttal. What do you think of that? Is that a good --
(CROSSTALK)
BRINKLEY: Will they carry it, Don? Are they going to carry it on ABC, CBS --
LEMON: I know we're going to carry it here.
BRINKLEY: NBC --
LEMON: I cannot speak for the other networks. But we're going to carry it here.
BRINKLEY: Yes, I think the cable will carry it, but I'm not sure the networks will.
LEMON: But as I've been saying all along, one of the things this president is going -- would hate the most about having a Democratic Congress take over is that he would have to share the spotlight with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, who's in the Senate, but still is, you know, feeling a bit more confident now by having a Democratic Congress. He's got a share of the spotlight. And tomorrow night at least in -- I think if you want to think about it the old way, they get the last word.
BRINKLEY: Well -- and you're supposed to use this to address the people, Don, when it's a crisis. This is not the Cuban missile crisis. This is not 9/11. This is just politics. And Trump it as using it as a crisis situation, threatening a national emergency that doesn't exist. We saw it with the whole charade --
RYAN: Yes.
BRINKLEY: -- in the midterm of people -- the caravan coming to the border, and this is that redux. So, I think we have to be careful not to allow Donald Trump too much public air times for these kinds of political infomercials.
LEMON: Yes. Interesting. Why do you say that? Because I had that conversation with Chris at the top of the 10 o'clock hour, and you know, he said you shouldn't limit the exposure to this president, which I agree with in the sense not limiting but shouldn't news organizations be more strategic --
BRINKLEY: In fact--
LEMON: -- yes. Yes. About what's being put out.
BRINKLEY: Thousands of lives -- we haven't had a president --
LEMON: Yes.
BRINKLEY: I mean, if ABC, CBS, and all a part of journalism and the Washington Post is talking about thousands of lies from a president, how can you have a president come on lying to the American people without an instant fact check or rebuttal.
And I'm not convinced the networks are going to want to lose 15, 20, 30 minutes to their programming because they've got a state of the union coming in just a couple of weeks which they've given their time allotted to.
[23:09:57] LEMON: Yes. Congressman, you heard Democratic Congressman Jerry Nadler at the top of this segment that we did, that he expects Trump to lie to the American people tomorrow night. Is he off base?
DENT: Well, sadly, I'm afraid he's not. The truth is, you know, it's incumbent upon this president to offer a coherent plan to the people of this country about what he actually wants to do to establish operational control of the border. He has not done that other than scream wall or steel slats. And he's even gone to the extent now that he wants to talk about declaring some type of an emergency to build a wall.
You know, under the law, you can declare emergency but then your remedy must actually address the emergency. And I can make a very strong case that building a wall won't stop this illegal immigration. One, it will take too long with all the eminent domain issues. It will take too long.
He doesn't talk about -- he never talks about one third to one half of the people in this country illegally entered legally.
LEMON: Yes.
DENT: To me that is a far bigger problem. We're not talking about any of these issues other than this overly simplistic jingoistic wall.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: And overstay.
LEMON: Yes. So, let's -- I want to ask you, April, about President Coulter because you know the policy -- you know, his reversal on this on signing the legislation and the government shutdown was reportedly because of Ann Coulter, the Ann Coulters of the world.
She doesn't think the president's trip to the border is a good idea. And she tweeted today that, you know, "Trump going to the border is beyond moronic. Does he need to meet with a cancer patient before deciding to fund cancer research?"
So, if Trump changed his tune on the shutdown because of Ann Coulter and other right-wing pundits, will that happen -- or pundits? Will that happen to his border trip, do you think?
RYAN: Well, first of all, let me go back about this speech tomorrow night in the Oval Office. The first time the president has made a primetime speech in the Oval Office. That's big. But -- and I told you about a wall a few minutes ago. This wall compared to the Israeli wall.
Well, I was told by my Republican source -- good Republican sources inside this group, this Trump administration group, they're saying that the president is getting Ann Coulter's support by talking about the Israeli Wall. So, it's -- I give you something, you give me something. So, she's pacified, I believe -- yes. She's pacified, I believe, if she -- he does talk about the Israeli wall, the comparison of this wall to the Israeli wall.
LEMON: We shall see. That's one thing with Twitter, you get to know real quick how folks feel about things. Thank you very much.
RYAN: Right. Who your friends are.
LEMON: Yes.
RYAN: Yes.
LEMON: Who your friends are and who the trolls are. Thank you very much. New Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wasting no time taking on President Trump. She says there's no question he's a racist.
[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: One of the newest members of Congress not hesitating to take on President Trump, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a New York City Democrat, calling the president a racist. She spoke with Anderson Cooper in an interview last night on 60 Minutes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: You don't talk about President Trump very much.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, (D) NEW YORK: No.
COOPER: Why?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Because I think he's a symptom of a problem.
COOPER: What do you mean?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: The president certainly didn't invent racism, but he's certainly given a voice to it and expanded it and created a platform for those things.
COOPER: Do you believe President Trump is a racist?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes, Yes. No question.
COOPER: How can you say that?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: When you look at the words that he uses, which are historic dog whistles of white supremacy, when you look at how he reacted to the Charlottesville incident where neo-Nazis murdered a woman versus how he manufactures crises like immigrants seeking legal refuge on our borders, it's night and day.
COOPER: In response, the White House deputy press secretary told us Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez's sheer ignorance on the matter can't cover the fact that President Trump supported and passed historic criminal justice reform and has repeatedly condemned racism and bigotry in all forms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Let's talk about it. There's a lot to talk about. Rob Astorino is here, Nina Turner, and Tara Setmayer. Good evening to all of you. So good to have you on. I'm going to start with you, Tara, because Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is certainly not the first person to say these things about the president. Is she right?
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I agree with her. I didn't agree with much of anything else she said in that interview as a conservative, but she nailed that one, and it's unfortunate.
And you know, we've already seen the evidence of this since the campaign. I mean, the way he started his campaign off when he came down the escalator talking about Mexicans being rapists, and you know, that whole diatribe. That has been an undercurrent of his entire campaign and it's not gotten much better as he's been president.
I mean, she was right. His response to Charlottesville and other ways that he's responded to things, the difference and the language that he uses and the fact that to use a line from Andrew Gillum, the racists think he's a racist, that should concern everyone. I mean, that should concern everyone. We're not making this up out of nothing. He's not helping himself with his own words and actions.
LEMON: She, Rob, she says he didn't invent the country's racism but he's given a voice to it. I imagine you disagree with that?
ROB ASTORINO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I do. I mean, I don't think he's a racist. I do think he says things that makes me cringe at times, quite honestly, and a lot of people.
LEMON: Why does it -- OK. I'm glad you said that.
ASTORINO: No, because I think he --
LEMON: So he says things about -- on issues that have to do with race?
ASTORINO: Anything. I just think he --
LEMON: But we're talking about --
ASTORINO: -- can choose better words.
LEMON: -- we're talking about specific -- no, and I don't mean to -- I just want to drill down on what you said.
[23:20:01] ASTORINO: Yes.
LEMON: So, you think that he says things that make you cringe. We're talking about the subject of racism.
ASTORINO: Yes.
LEMON: Does he say things on race that --
ASTORINO: Yes. I don't think he is a racist. I'm going to be very adamant about that. But I do think he uses words that he should not use. I think he should be careful in how he says things for a lot of reasons. One, he's the president of the United States. But I think it can be misinterpreted sometimes.
I also think words do matter and you've got to be very careful how you say things. And so, I agree that he does things that can have this kind of effect around the country and have this kind of argument about whether he is or isn't. I don't -- from what I've known of him personally, I don't think he is at all, but I do think he needs to be very careful in how he addresses things.
LEMON: What's your evidence that he's not?
ASTORINO: Well, I can only go by personally. You know, the times I've been with him --
LEMON: But how would you know?
ASTORINO: What do you mean?
LEMON: How would you know that you're -- ASTORINO: The discussions that we've had on the golf course or whatever I've never heard him talk about things like that, you know, in an atmosphere where he would be comfortable to do that.
SETMAYER: So why do you think he does it publicly, then?
ASTORINO: Well, look --
SETMAYER: Why do you think he does it publicly out of the abundance of your heart so your mouth speaks?
ASTORINO: Well, look, I mean, we can turn this around too for a second. We brought up AOC. All of a sudden, she's been in Congress three days that she has --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You know why AOC though?
SETMAYER: You can thank Republicans for that for attacking her for stupid things.
LEMON: Because Republicans and also because people can't say her name. This is not like (ph) to make her a star. Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez it's like doesn't roll off the tongue for some people until you get to know her name. And I think mostly Republicans are talking about her.
ASTORINO: Well, let's go back --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Nina, I promise you I'm going to come to you.
NINA TURNER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don.
ASTORINO: We'll go back just a little bit on AOC.
LEMON: OK. You get it quick. Quick, quick because I --
(CROSSTALK)
ASTORINO: That district that she came from, 13 percent of the people voted. And you know what she ran on? And it wasn't really an undercurrent. It wasn't a dog whistle. She basically said that white guy over there, Joe Crowley, he doesn't represent, doesn't look like us, time to get rid of him.
TURNER: Good lord. We're not talking --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. Hold on, Nina.
TURNER: Listen.
LEMON: I'll let you get in. But you said 13 percent of the people voted.
ASTORINO: That's it.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. So that's her electoral college. That's a win. A win is a win.
ASTORINO: But she comes from the deepest, deepest blue area of the country.
LEMON: OK. What's wrong with that?
SETMAYER: What does that have to do with Donald Trump?
ASTORINO: She's made out to be the superstar.
SETMAYER: What does that have to do with the question I asked you?
LEMON: Nina, go on, Nina.
TURNER: I mean --
LEMON: Go on, Nina.
SETMAYER: You dodged the question.
ASTORINO: What I said -- well, I brought that up because --
(CROSSTALK)
TURNER: The president --
ASTORINO: She has -- she has run on the issue of bigotry.
LEMON: Yes.
TURNER: This is not about -- let me tell you something. Racism. Let's educate the nation about this racism is based on a power relationship. It is also -- systemic racism. But let's talk about individual racism. This president is the most powerful man in the free world. So, he has the power.
When he talks about the birther movement, for example. Start (ph) Birther movement, trying to disqualify the first African-American president in the history of this country. All Mexicans are racists. The Central Park five ad that he took out in the New York Times to try to destroy black lives at the time when he was totally wrong. The shithole countries comment that he made. All Haitians have AIDS (ph).
The president of the United States, as much as it pains us, America, in the 21st century, by our standards, and God knows we still have a whole lot of work to do to form a more perfect -- a more perfect union. But this president, unfortunately, has racist tendencies. Therefore, he is a racist. Now, the point that the Congresswoman made about he didn't start
racism, totally true. It didn't start with him and it's not going to end with him. But in the 21st century, to have a president that is this blatant about it, is problematic for all of us because we are supposed to be making progress, not going backwards in this country.
LEMON: We're going to continue this conversation on the other side of the break. And I'm going to get -- Nina, I'm going to give you it because I think you didn't get as much time as everybody. I'll give you the first word I promise.
I just want to ask you. Nina brings up a very good point, OK? And quickly because I really got to run.
ASTORINO: Sure.
LEMON: When you said that you think he should say things more careful, be more careful with what he says because it can be misunderstood. So for the years and years that he's said that this president, the former president wasn't born in the United States, should he have been more careful about saying that?
ASTORINO: No, that was his belief.
LEMON: OK.
ASTORINO: That was his belief. And I don't -- I never subscribed to that --
LEMON: Even with evidence.
ASTORINO: That was his belief. And by the way --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But that belief is not racist? That's the thing. That belief is not racist?
ASTORINO: No. I don't -- I don't think --
LEMON: Why didn't he believe it? Why didn't he believe it?
ASTORINO: Because no matter where you're born if you're not born in the United States then you shouldn't be president.
LEMON: But why wouldn't he believe it?
ASTORINO: Why wouldn't he believe it?
LEMON: Yes, why wouldn't he believe it?
ASTORINO: You'd have to ask him.
SETMAYER: What about when he said how come more immigrants from Norway --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No. Hold on, Tara. hold on, Tara.
SETMAYER: But he said to be pitiful countries about Africa but not about Norway.
ASTORINO: Look --
LEMON: Why wouldn't he believe it with evidence?
[23:24:56] ASTORINO: Well, if you ask a lot of people in this country, still I bet they think -- and it's not about -- it's not about black. It's not about white.
SETMAYER: Oh, my gosh.
LEMON: Yes, it is. It's not -- no, it's about Muslim.
ASTORINO: No, no. No, no, no.
LEMON: Or some would say because they think it's derogatory, Muslim. Come on, man.
ASTORINO: Come on.
LEMON: Come on.
ASTORINO: I'm being serious.
LEMON: Really?
ASTORINO: Yes.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The White House firing back at freshman Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for calling President Trump a racist.
Back with me now, Rob Astorino, Nina Turner, Tara Setmayer. OK. So, I promised you, Nina that I would give you the first question.
[23:29:55] So, in response to Ocasio-Cortez the White House told 60 Minutes that the congresswoman's sheer ignorance on the matter can't cover the fact that President Trump supported and passed historic criminal justice reform and on and on. You saw the response there. Does supporting criminal justice reform mean the president isn't a racist?
TURNER: No, it doesn't, Don. And even a wrong clock is right twice a day. So what? Whoop-di-doo. I mean, this president has been promoting even before he got into the White House, and just really bringing out the covert nature -- hell, the next minute he's going to bring back the colored and white water fountain. We leave it up to him. The problem is that, as a nation, we are trying to overcome the vestiges that have created white supremacy in this country, white skin privilege in this country. Does it mean that all white people are racist? Absolutely not. But it does mean that this nation was founded on racism, i.e. slavery, period, point blank, i.e. 400 years, if you include black codes and Jim Crow, the burdens that black people have had to bear in this country.
And to have a president that continues to stoke that instead of bringing people together and instead of pushing holistic policies besides just that one, because if you look at his state department and the things that they have done under A.G. Sessions when he was there, the man has taken us backwards. I hate to admit it, America, news flash, a 21st century president, Donald J. Trump, is a flat-out racist.
Now, Don, the bottom line here, though, is what are we going to do when he's out of there because it's easy to point the finger at him because he makes it so easy? But we have to deal with systemic racism that's political, economic, social racisms in this country.
LEMON: OK. So, Rob, you had a physical reaction to her response.
ASTORINO: Yeah, because I know the nexus now is that all 60 million people who voted for Donald Trump is a racist.
TURNER: I -- no, I didn't say that. I never said that.
ASTORINO: Well, I've heard that argument a million times.
TURNER: Well, I didn't say that. I won't say that. I didn't say that.
ASTORINO: Though we pop it out of the basket of deplorables, you know, we're just awful people.
TURNER: That was a bad statement. That was a bad statement.
ASTORINO: No, I mean, I've heard that a million times.
LEMON: I've never heard anyone say that all of the president's supporters are --
ASTORINO: Really? I mean, I've been on this air a million times when Roseanne made her statement. It was, OK, if you supported Roseanne or watch Roseanne and if you support the president then therefore. I mean, it's like we deal --
LEMON: That's not saying all Trump supporters are racists. I don't understand your logic there.
TURNER: You deflected, Rob. You are deflecting.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But you had a physical reaction, but go on. ASTORINO: No, I mean, I just -- you know, it's like this goes one direction and only one direction. Meanwhile, you've got many on the left, including of course many elected officials in Congress too who can say things and get away with it and nobody questions them. Some of the things that Maxine Waters has said, I mean, are --
LEMON: About race?
ASTORINO: About go bash them over the head, go do this and that.
LEMON: We're talking about racism.
ASTORINO: Yeah, well, there's plenty -- Conyers (ph) has said it. Many people have said things that I think are deplorable, but they don't get called out on it. I mean, we're going to Hollywood --
SETMAYER: So whataboutism (ph). There are plenty of people who call them out. I know I do. There are many that call out the hypocrisy --
ASTORINO: Call them out and it's over in a day.
SETMAYER: Well, that doesn't make it right --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Tara, I want you to respond, but I think Nina is right. Why are we conflating left versus right or people who are talking about political --
SETMAYER: Because it's whataboutism.
LEMON: OK, yes, so -- I asked about racism. I didn't ask about political --
TURNER: It's when you believe that one group is inherently superior to another group based on race. And based on what this president has put out there, it is clear that he believes that. Now, so don't -- lord have mercy. Don, I just --
SETMAYER: Look, Don, here's the thing. Here's the thing. We're not going to say -- you know, you and I have had this conversation. I've had it on your program. For a long time, I was reluctant to call Trump a racist. I said that he was a bigot. And I said he was racially insensitive.
Because the idea of racism is really what Nina is talking about, you know, this idea of being in power and being superior over others. I was like, is he really doing that in his position? In the beginning, I had to reconcile that. As we've gone further into his presidency and his reaction -- his reaction to Charlottesville sealed the deal for me.
There is no way that someone who does not have racist, bigoted, racially insensitive, however you want to define it, tendencies in them can look at the Charlottesville situation and say there are good people on both sides. No way. That sealed the deal for me. On top of everything else that he's done.
And for people who support him in the beginning because of economics or whatever, they thought he was going to be their savior, fine. But at this point to continue to excuse away what he does, you become an enabler. Where is the red line for people in this country with this president, his immorality and his racism and his lying and everything else? Where is the line drawn?
LEMON: That's got to be the last word. I've got to go. Thank you all. I appreciate your time. Kevin Hart apologizing tonight for his past derogatory remarks about LGBT people. He apologized tonight. I'm going to tell you what he said about my challenge to become an ally to the community. I spoke with him. After the break.
[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So new tonight, Kevin Hart is apologizing. He actually said he apologized and he said I'm sorry. Last week, Hart appeared on Ellen, on the Ellen show, where he talked about how he was sorry and wanted to move on from old homophobic jokes and tweets of his.
He told Ellen that he had addressed these jokes in the past. But we and others couldn't find any previous apologies, just what he said, that he had addressed them and what some saw as excuses. And on Friday, I talked about how Kevin could turn the situation around and step up as an ally for the people -- for people in the LGBT community.
[23:40:02] Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Many of us really need to keep the conversation going. It's life or death. And someone like Kevin Heart, with one of the biggest megaphones in the world, can be a leader, the ultimate change agent. He can help change homophobia in the black community, something Kevin's old twitter jokes addressed but in the wrong way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So -- and before I go on with any of this, you know, this is not coming -- I'm not coming for Kevin. OK? This is just we're trying to learn and have a dialogue and a conversation here because when talking about this story on this program, I asked Kevin to reach out to me. And guess what? Over the weekend, he did.
He called me. We spoke at length. We spoke for over an hour. Then we talked after that and we texted and whatever. But it was mostly an off-the-record conversation because I wanted him to be honest with me and I just wanted us to just talk to each other and to listen.
So as a journalist, I have to abide by that, but I can't say specifically what we talked about. But I can speak in some generalities. That was our agreement. OK? So I'm not going to tell you specifically exactly what he said, but I can tell you about the overall tone of the conversation and some of the issues that we covered. OK? And again, that was our agreement, so he knows that I'm going to talk about this. So I'm not going to make excuses for Kevin, but I just want to explain to you where he is coming from. And what he said tonight on his Sirius XM show will help me do that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEVIN HART, COMEDIAN (voice over): I understand why people are hurt. I understand what these words mean. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I said it again, when I stepped down. I apologized. I wrote it. I said it. Right? I know I did.
These weren't words that I said to gay individuals. This is wrong now because now we're in a space where I'm around people of the LGBTQ community and I'm now aware of how these words make them feel and why they say that (bleep) hurt because of what I've been through.
So then we say hey, hey man, as a group, let's erase this (bleep). We don't talk like this no more. Hey, let's not do this. We don't post this (bleep) on social media, and more importantly, within my comedy act, I'm gonna make sure that I don't do anything else offensive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: You may not like the way he said it or whatever, but he said it there. He did say I'm sorry, I apologize, we shouldn't be doing this. He says that he understands why his words hurt and what they mean. I get it. I get it. Many people grow up in situations where they might not come in contact with someone who is openly part of the LGBT community.
But trust me, you come in contact with people who are gay, they just don't tell you. And part of the reason they don't is because they fear the backlash and what people -- the stigma and what people will think of them or say of them or they'll be ostracized or people grow up hearing that it is wrong or sinful to be gay or transgender.
And sometimes it's a tough lesson. But a lot of people learn that what you can and cannot say about someone in the -- who is LGBT, that it can be hurtful.
I've got to be honest. If Kevin means what he says -- what he said on that radio show right there, then he is learning that lesson. In that commentary, he said he's not homophobic. This is what I wanted to get across to Kevin, OK, even in our conversations that there are levels to homophobia just like there are levels to racism.
You can be -- you don't always have to be the starkest example of what it means to be racist or what it means to be homophobic or you -- you can be -- you don't have to be homophobic to make homophobic statements. Right?
Even as a gay person, I have to check my own level or my own internal homophobia sometimes. What I think about people, I'm just if anything honest and real. Sometimes with people who are -- I remember when I was coming out, people who are effeminate. We had a learning curve when it comes to -- still do -- when it comes to members of the transgender community, my transgender brothers and sisters.
And that company said you need to check your own internal homophobia, and I did, and they were right. So even as a gay person there, you can be part of something. Jokes or tweets, well, you know, that is a different thing. Sometimes a joke is just a joke. But as I said last week, they can also be harmful and dangerous.
[23:45:04] So later on this show, Kevin talked about my challenge for him to become an ally. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HART (voice over): I don't like the forcing. I don't like -- like, like Don Lemon goes -- Don Lemon goes on CNN and he's like, you can fix this, become an ally. That's not my -- that's not my -- it's not my life dream. Kevin Hart apologizes for his remarks that hurt members of the LGBTQ community. I apologize. I'm now moving on from this because I'm just hoping that the apology is accepted. If it's chosen not to be accepted, I can't control that.
If your fight is for equality, then you need to understand that change is what helps that. You can't get what you want without understanding and accepting the change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, there's a lot there. And I don't have that much show left. So, but -- so I'll just say that he is sorry, he says. He said but it is not his dream to be an ally for the LGBT community. Now, you can take that however you want. You can be upset by it, you -- whatever, however you want to feel, but that is his right. Whether I like it or not, whether you like it or not, that is his right.
If he doesn't want to be an ally, if he doesn't want to be a spokesperson for the gay community, he does not have to do that. It's his choice as an American, a person with agency. He can do that. And then you can feel about it however you want.
So, listen, there's been a lot of blow back. Kevin backed out of hosting the Oscars, and on some level you can understand for him that it may feel like he's under attack, right, because he's in the middle of it. But I will tell you for me as I relate to him and I can talk about my part, he's not a victim.
So listen to what he's saying there. He wants to be accepted. He wants us to accept him. He wants to be embraced on his own merits. Isn't that what the LGBT community wants? Isn't that the same thing they were asking for, to be embraced on their own merits and not be stereotyped and stigmatized?
So maybe -- right? An olive branch in an effort to understand. Remember, we want to talk and try to understand. Doesn't mean we're making excuses, it just means we're allowing people room so we can have an honest conversation. So maybe he now knows just a little bit, just a little bit more of what that feels like. Even if it's misguided or however you feel about it, now he knows a little bit what that feels like.
The LGBT community, which I am a part of, can and should hold people with large megaphones to account. Right? We should -- we should do that. But if we don't want to be bullied, we can't be bullies. You don't want to turn into what you're fighting against. So hold them to account, call them out, but you don't want to bully people.
So that's just -- listen, I may get a lot of blowback for that, but I'm just being honest. It's important for -- to me, for Kevin and other people to know that, you know, when you feel like you're being bullied or you may feel like communities are going hard, like the black community goes hard sometimes, the gay community goes hard sometimes, marginalized communities are so passionate about issues like this because it really is about life or death, mere survival.
So understand that part. Sometimes people are going hard because they've been frustrated and they've been marginalized for so long that it hurts.
In 2017, the latest year that we have data for 52 LGBTQ people -- from -- I should say 52 LGBTQ people in the U.S. were killed as a result of hate violence, an 86 percent increase from 2016. That's according to a report by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs.
It doesn't mean that you're putting Kevin on that level or anyone, but those comments certainly -- the old stuff, I'm saying, certainly don't help. The new way, if you -- if what you're saying is true, that helps.
I did ask Kevin, by the way, to come on the show to talk multiple times, many times during our conversations, texting him, but he said he's not interested. So, he's not interested. So, tonight, he spoke out on his radio show. And it seems like that he just wants to leave it at that.
[23:50:03] I do know that he has a movie coming out he's going to promote, so he will probably go on entertainment shows to talk about the movie, and maybe he just didn't want to go there. I don't know. Maybe you're scared, Kevin. Are you scared of me? Don't be scared. Come on, I'm not going to be mean. I know.
He's not going to like that. From what I heard and what, you know, you may have heard, now I've heard, Kevin is sorry for what he said. He said he understands how it hurt, but he's not here to be an ally. OK? So, we have to march on without him. I'm glad he apologized. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: New allegations of abuse and sexual misconduct against R&B artist R. Kelly are in the spotlight tonight after a new documentary series on Lifetime. Surviving R. Kelly features shocking allegations from Kelly's accusers of abuse, predatory behavior, and pedophilia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LISA VAN ALLEN, R. KELLY ACCUSER: When we got back to the house, this young girl was there and he called her down. He told me that she was 16 and she was a neighbor. He pulled out his camera and his tripod, and I started crying when we started to have sex.
I didn't want to do it, and he got upset. And he was, like, what am I going to do with this? He's like, I can't watch this with you crying. He didn't care that I was crying. He was upset because he couldn't watch it because I was crying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Kelly's lawyer says the documentary is filled with false allegations and suggested the subjects are defaming his client for personal gain. That's according to Bill Burr (ph). And sources tell TMZ that R. Kelly says he wants to sue everybody who had anything to do with the series.
So joining me now is Jamilah Lemieux, a writer who was featured in the documentary, and civil rights attorney, Areva Martin. Good evening. I guess he's talking about you, right?
JAMILAH LEMIEUX, WRITER AND CULTURAL CRITIC: Sue me.
LEMON: You're from Chicago. You've been covering him for years about the -- and he has been denying these allegations. Why is this coming out now?
LEMIEUX: You know, I think the time was right.
[23:54:56] I think it took the MeToo Movement of course which was sparked by -- you know, created by Tarana Burke, but when Hollywood gets involved with it, we are having this sustained public dialogue about sexual violence against women and girls, that finally there's enough conversation about it to allow black women and girls in.
LEMON: If you have your ear to the -- or your fingers to the eyes, to the twitter feed and to social media, that's all anyone is talking about, this documentary. We've been discusses R. Kelly for a while but this documentary really has people talking about it.
Areva, you think that this could be the beginning of what we saw with Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby. Please explain that.
AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yeah, I hope so. I think women having the courage to come out and speak publicly, and women who were a part of his inner circle, women who said that they personally witnessed the kind of abuse that we, as you said, have heard about for years, those women coming forward.
Hopefully, there is some prosecutor in one of these, you know, jurisdictions that watched this doc and that gives them light, gives them courage to say, you know, we may have a case here. There may be a statute of limitations that has not been blown. There may be credible witnesses that will come forward and that finally R. Kelly can face the kind of prosecution that when you look at these allegations, you have to ask yourself, how is it that this guy is not in jail?
LEMON: Yeah.
MARTIN: How is it that he has not been criminally prosecuted? When you think of the underage girls --
LEMIEUX: Black girls.
MARTIN: The allegations. Black girls. Babies.
LEMON: Let me get to this because I'm running -- I'm running out of time. This is Jada Pinkett Smith on her Instagram. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JADA PINKETT SMITH, ACTRESS: So, I got an article this morning about how R. Kelly's music sales and his streams have spiked substantially since the release of "Surviving R. Kelly" docu-series, and I'm having a really difficult time understanding why.
But I think it's important that I understand why. I really would like for you guys to help me understand what I'm missing. I really don't want to believe that it's because black girls don't matter enough. Or is that the reason?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Jamilah?
LEMIEUX: I think we know that that's the reason. I'm from Chicago, I've heard these rumors, and I've heard stories about R. Kelly that were proven and substantiated on a tape for almost two decades. There was no question about who this person was and what he was doing on the south side of Chicago and beyond.
If these were not black girls, we wouldn't be talking about this right now. Imagine if Taylor Swift or Britney Spears had their 27-year-old male mentor, best friend, hiding on the front of their album cover, which is (INAUDIBLE), nothing but a number, because Britney Spears was highly sexual as a 14, 16-year-old girl, right? "Baby One More Time" --
LEMON: Her songs, her music --
LEMIEUX: Her songs, her music, her looks. But imagine that a 27-year- old man was dressed in identical clothing with her on TRL, saying that they were best friends. That would not have happened. And if it happened, that would have been the end of both of their careers.
LEMON: Yeah. I encourage everyone to do more digging on this and we will certainly follow more. Unfortunately, we are out of time, but I appreciate both of you coming on. I want to get on the record with this because this is just unbelievable. Thank you both. Have a good night. Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
