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Don Lemon Tonight

Trump Walks Out of a Meeting; New Information on the Mueller Investigation; Rod Rosenstein Planning to Vacate the Justice Department; Government Shutdown on its 19th Day. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 09, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: "CNN TONIGHT" with Don Lemon starts right.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: OK. I can empathize with the -- that's what he said. I can with people when ask that question. And people are going to have to make adjustments.

Now, the president owns hotels, condo buildings, right? I wonder if the tenants or the people who stay in his hotels, if they said to him, hey, look, we're just going to pay you what we can. Maybe we can babysit for you. Maybe we can do some other things, and that can make up for our rent or for whatever it costs to stay in the Trump Hotel, you know the one right across from us here at CNN, or the one in D.C. I wonder if he would take that as payment. What do you think?

CUOMO: I think you sound like you're doing a nice 180 on what people always say to me when I talk about -- you take them in, Cuomo. You want these people seeking asylum? Put them in your house. I like the little spin you're doing there.

LEMON: But it's true because that's what he's asking people to do. He's asking people to make adjustments. And he says, I think that the landlords and what have you, they're going to be lenient. He's asking them to go lenient.

CUOMO: He's not asking them to do anything. He's forcing them to take it because of what he wants.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He's not thinking about them. He's not planning for them, and I don't know how he can make the case that he gives a damn about them with what he's doing right now.

LEMON: What's that noise? Did somebody fall down in your studio?

CUOMO: Your point was so strong, you literally knocked one of my stage directors right on the ground.

LEMON: Is he OK? Who is it? Bob? Bob, sorry. Well.

CUOMO: Bob is too low to the ground already. I don't think -- (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I'm so glad you said it. I was just going to say it, but you're the one who's going to get -- you're going to get the heat from it.

CUOMO: He's going to get mad and hop up on my desk.

LEMON: He doesn't have far to fall.

CUOMO: Bob, come over here so they can see you.

LEMON: We love you, Bob. Let's see him. Come on, Bob.

CUOMO: Here he comes. Never have to ask him twice. Look how nice he is. He's actually standing. Here he goes.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Ask Bob how my daughter's doing.

CUOMO: How is your kid?

LEMON: How my kid is doing. It's my kid. It looks like me.

CUOMO: God forbid.

LEMON: Yes. So, listen, I got to ask you. You know what has been frustrating -- I'm glad Bob is OK by the way. You know what has been frustrating to watch --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It wasn't him, but go ahead.

LEMON: To watch some of the framing of this as both sides saying -- now, this is just an honest assessment. I think it's a right assessment. There was negotiating before the deal that the Senate made and they voted on. They negotiated. The Democrats negotiated with the Republicans, right? And they thought they had a deal with the president.

The president is the one who came in and said, no, no deal. I'm going to shut it down.

CUOMO: Right.

LEMON: I don't think it should be framed as a both sides thing. And I watched that. It is the president -- the president needs to come to some sort of consensus about what he's going to do to negotiate.

CUOMO: Sure. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Look, I did a little homework here because I talked to Steny Hoyer earlier, and he mentioned the big shutdown back in the day with Gingrich. You know, they didn't have one for 17 years after that because the bite of the political payback after it, but that was over a policy issue. It was about education cuts. Right?

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: Now you're going to have a both sides dynamic on that because if the president at that time failing to want to make those cuts. He didn't want to make and now failing. But you either make a deal or you don't, but the shutdown as a release valve to make other people pay the pain -- feel the pain and have to use that as leverage, very dangerous in politics.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But that's not going on here because this wall was never real. It was a farce.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It was a device for a campaign. He was never going to get it. The GOP never wanted to give it to him.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It was never going to happen, and that's why on the show tonight, we did a wall showing how he's been moving from that wall to the reality of what's on the border --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes. Already. It's already there.

CUOMO: They're already building it.

LEMON: And they're already improving it and adding other sections. I got to say you were saying may people feel the pain. And then I'm going to talk to a gentleman a little bit later on in the show who works with the service employee's international union, right?

He says that he has employees who are now applying for food stamps, having to return to Medicaid. One of them is skipping meals and worried about formula for her baby. Some of them can't even get medication. So, we can sit here and talk about both sides, this person digging in. This is digging in. We want a wall or whatever. But people it could be life or death situation.

CUOMO: You can't both sides it when one side was never going to give it to you, and your own side was never pushing for it to begin with.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: You know, what has happened is the perversion of this is that his party, the GOP, is now a bunch of puppets. You know, you've got the Senate leader saying I'm not putting it on the floor unless the president says it's OK. We're not used to seeing that. LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: You know, they just talked about taking their power back. They can't even consider a veto-proof majority on anything. I don't think they could get a veto-proof majority on how to spell the word Senate right now.

LEMON: Elections have consequences.

CUOMO: So.

LEMON: That's what they said during the -- when Trump won.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Consequences to his party too --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- because now they're just an echo. That's the Trump party. It's not the GOP.

[22:05:00] LEMON: Well, that's what they said when the election in 2016. Elections has -- elections have consequences.

CUOMO: True. And it's true.

LEMON: So, why don't they have consequences in 2018?

CUOMO: Well, they will, and that's what's happening with Nancy -- you know, the beautiful nickname you came up with, Nan Chuck, you know, the new power couple in Washington.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: They know how to do this. They're both scarred up from battles past. This president does not know how to play this game. He doesn't listen to anybody and the people around him are afraid to say anything he doesn't because either they get fired to primary.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: So, he's all alone on this.

LEMON: Do you remember back -- maybe it was '80s. Maybe it was the '90s. The 90s on SNL, was it David Spade when they did the flight attendant thing?

CUOMO: Yes. Ba-bye.

LEMON: Ba-bye. Ba-bye.

CUOMO: Ba-bye.

LEMON: Even today when he's like bye-bye. Right? When he say that --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: And I believe that's what he said by the way.

LEMON: It reminded me of that. I believe it too. And you just talked about, you know, some of the things that happened. I'm going to go through it in just a little bit here, but it's just amazing to me that, you know, to say, OK, then we don't have a deal. We got to go. Good-bye. Bye-bye.

CUOMO: I'm fine with that as long as people aren't getting paychecks because of it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You want to play hardball and walk away and say, I'm not going to make a deal with you, but you're going to pay for this, that's a big part of politics. OK? Politics is pressure. Right?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: It could be persuasion, and it can be pain.

LEMON: You read my mind.

CUOMO: But this is cheap what's going on here right now.

LEMON: Well, I was going to say, why can't you open the government and still apply political pressure?

CUOMO: Because he doesn't have the leverage. I get it. You know, he had a great exchange today with Jonathan Karl, my old buddy from ABC. He was at CNN before. You probably know him.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Brilliant reporter.

LEMON: I do. Absolutely.

CUOMO: And he said, hey, John, how about you? Would you sign the -- would you sign the appropriation bills? John is not going to answer that question. He's a journalist. He said, you know, if you would sign them, you'd never be right for this job.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And that's not true. The job of being a president isn't putting yourself first.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: Leverage, which is fake leverage because you're putting pain on the backs of people who don't deserve it, that's not real leverage.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You're leveraging those people. You're not leveraging your opponents.

LEMON: Hey, Chris?

CUOMO: Yes, sir.

LEMON: Bye-bye.

CUOMO: You've been waiting to say that the whole time, haven't you? Look how happy you are with yourself. Look how happy you are with yourself. I'm going to tell you something, the way they have you framed right now, the building is growing right out the middle of your head.

CUOMO: I know. Every night. Every night.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: They do that to you on purpose, Don.

LEMON: You know who complains about that? Two people.

CUOMO: Not me. I love it.

LEMON: My mother, and guess the other person. My agent? They said they have that big --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: They do it to you on purpose.

LEMON: I know. Well, it's like to --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Not my guys. Look, perfect.

LEMON: It's to show my brilliance, how smart I am.

CUOMO: You should have a halo.

LEMON: It is a halo. It's my version of a halo. All right. You complained so much about me not having to buy you a meal on Sunday.

CUOMO: You are?

LEMON: Yes. I'm glad -- yes. We talked about that today.

CUOMO: Sunday. You know Sunday I got to go to Cha Cha's gymnastics thing. It's Saturday that we can do it.

LEMON: I thought it was Sunday. All right.

CUOMO: You're as tight as two coats of paint.

LEMON: We'll figure that.

CUOMO: Saturday's when you are going to do it.

LEMON: Bye-bye.

CUOMO: Ba-bye.

LEMON: Ba-bye.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Thank you so much for joining us.

So, here's where we are right now. The White House meeting with the president started with candy. It ended less than a half an hour later with a tantrum. And if you thought the whole no adults left anymore thing was a metaphor, maybe you should think again because here's what happened inside the room.

This is according to a congressional aide, OK? They used to say on the golden girls. Sicily, picture it. Right? So, picture it. Sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer saying, you are using people as leverage. Why won't you open the government and stop hurting people? The president, he responds by saying, because then you won't give me what I want.

A White House official disputes the president said that, who said the president because you won't give me what I want. The official claims the president said, I got to get you to do the right thing. But it all went downhill from there.

The president looking at Speaker Nancy Pelosi and saying, in 30 days, will you be in favor of a wall? Her replay, nope. No. His response, what's the point then? Slamming his hands on the table and exiting with "bye-bye."

It is impossible to overstate how ridiculous this is. This is a behavior of a toddler who is not getting his way, so he just said bye- bye. Not the president of the United States, who is supposed to be trying to negotiate an end to the shutdown that's taken away paychecks for 800,000 federal workers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) NEW YORK, MINORITY LEADER: We saw a temper tantrum because he couldn't get his way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, this is governing by not governing. Remember that whole thing that the Obama administration would get criticized for, leading from behind? This is governing by not governing as the shutdown is about to stretch into its 20th day with no end in sight.

[22:09:56] Remember when the president told The Washington Post this? He says, "I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else's brain can ever tell them."

I wonder what his gut is telling him right now. Democrats definitely not letting the president off the hook.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY PELOSI, UNITED STATES SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Federal workers will not be receiving their paychecks, and what that means in their lives is tragic in terms of their credit rating, paying their mortgage, paying their rent, paying their car payment, paying their children's tuition, and the rest.

The president seems to be insensitive to that. He thinks maybe they could just ask their father for more money, but they can't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, don't forget the New York Times investigation that found Donald Trump got the equivalent of in today's dollars, of 413 million of them from his father's real estate empire. The president's tactics putting everybody on the spot.

I want you to watch this response. This is from the Army Chief of Staff General Mark Milley when reporters asked him about the military building the wall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, do you know how long it might take for the military to build a wall at the southern border?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, in a sign of just how bad things are right now, coast guard employees -- you have to listen to this. Coast Guard employees who have lost their paychecks in the shutdown got some suggestions today. Hold a garage sale. Babysit or serve as a mystery shopper. They really said that.

That was from a tip sheet by an employee, assistance arm of the Coast Guard, which has taken down -- was taken down after the Washington Post asked about it.

All of this is clearly getting under the president's skin. The Senate minority whip, Dick Durbin, says Trump blurted out in the middle of today's meeting, I don't know why I'm not -- I don't know why I'm doing this. I didn't want to do this meeting. They told me I had to do this meeting.

That's after he told network anchors yesterday that he didn't want to give the Oval Office address last night or visit the border, saying, quote, "it's not going to change a damn thing, but I'm still doing it." Governing by not governing. And dodging responsibility at every opportunity. Just listen to this from the president. This was this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is not a fight I wanted. I didn't want this fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Come on. Has he forgotten that he said this live just last month on TV?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck. I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Like I said, governing by not governing. Whatever happened to -- da, da, da -- "The Art of the Deal." We all know Donald Trump didn't actually write this book, but maybe he needs to go back and read it for some tips on how to get out of this mess of his own making.

So, as a public service, let me just read a few excerpts for you, OK? Page 46, "I like thinking big. I always have. To me, it's very simple. If you're not going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big. If you're going to be thinking anyway, you might as well think big."

Now, that one he seems to be following right there, OK? But this next one, OK, not so much. This is on page 48 of "The Art of the Deal." Page 48. "I always go into a deal anticipating the worse. If you plan for the worst, if you can live with the worst, the good will always take care of itself."

This administration didn't plan. The president reportedly didn't know what a shutdown would do, like taking away food stamps from millions of Americans.

And here's this one. Let's see. This one is from page 50, OK? Are you ready? If you your book at home, I should have tweeted it out. You could read along with me from the text.

Page 50. "I never get too attached to one deal or one approach. I keep a lot of balls in the air because most deals fall out no matter how promising they seem at first."

President Trump seems pretty attached to the wall. If you have your book, follow with me now. Page 53, we'll turn to that. Page 53. "The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you're dead."

[22:14:59] And my personal favorite is from a couple pages later, OK? This is from page 60 of "The Art of the Deal." Page 60. You can't con people, at least not for long." That's rich. "At least not for long. You can do wonderful promotion." Wait. I went too fast. No, that's right. "At least not for long. You can get wonderful promotion and get all kinds of press, and you can throw in a little hyperbole. But if you don't deliver the goods, people will eventually catch on." That is for sure. People will eventually catch on. That's like deep

thoughts from Jack Handy. Remember that? I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and doggone, I'm going to get my wall.

Let's remember every day this shutdown continues is another day of distraction from the Russia investigation. But don't you be distracted because there is a lot going on related to Russia and Robert Mueller.

The Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who has been overseeing Mueller's investigation planning to leave the DOJ after the president's nominee for attorney general, William Barr, is confirmed. That is according to a CNN source, which raises a question is the investigation close to wrapping up?

That comes as the fallout continues from the bombshell revelation that Paul Manafort shared polling data with Russian Konstantin Kilimnik during the presidential campaign, data that a source says was intended to go to Ukrainian oligarchs who owed him millions.

So, I want you to listen to what the top Democrat on the Senate intel committee, Mark Warner, told CNN's Manu Raju today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK WARNER, (D) VIRGINIA: This appears as the closest we've seen yet to real, live, actual collusion. Clearly, Manafort was trying to collude with Russian agents, and the question is what did the president know? What did Donald Trump know about this exchange of information?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: All of that as the shutdown, another manufactured crisis courtesy of President Trump, moves into its 20th day and as this president continues to govern by not governing.

Lots to discuss. David Axelrod, Kirsten Powers, they're both here. We're going to dig into that. But first I want you to take a look at this, Jim. Donald Trump's speech when he got an honorary degree at Wagner College in Staten Island. This was back in 2004. It was dug up by our friends at The Daily Show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Never, ever give up. Don't give up. Don't allow it to happen. If there's a concrete wall in front of you, go through it. Go over it. Go around it. But get to the other side of that wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The clock is ticking to day 20 of the shutdown, and there is no end in sight. Eight hundred thousand government workers are feeling the pain. I said with emphasis, 800,000 government workers feeling the pain. And President Trump, he threw a tantrum and stormed out of a meeting with congressional leaders today.

So, I want to discuss now. David Axelrod is here, as well as Kirsten Powers. Good evening to both of you. I hope you enjoyed my bedtime reading from "The Art of the Deal." And I'm going to have to read from this as often as possible, right?

So, David, you know, I must have missed the part in the "Art of the Deal" where it says give out candy and then throw a tantrum.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, although that has been a traditional Trump negotiating tactic, you know, to storm out of the room, to show that you're willing to do that. And I think some of those theatrics are meant for his base.

You know, you mentioned that you were talking earlier about Manafort sharing polling data with the Russians. Someone needs to share polling data with the president because he is losing on both the issue of the wall and the shutdown.

The problem he's got, Don, is that where he's not losing is with his base, who are all torqued up about it. And he has no easy way to get out of this without looking like he is losing or retreating. And that is the trick. That is what he has to figure out. How do I get out of this thing because Democrats will open up the government tomorrow?

LEMON: Yes.

AXELROD: He's the one who's keeping it closed. He has to find a way to reopen the government without look like -- looking like he's surrendering.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I got a lot to talk about. I had to talk to you about a tweet. But Kirsten, I just want people -- people have to remember this when they -- when the vice president and the Republican leaders came out, and they said, you know, the Democrats won't negotiate. Nancy -- they won't negotiate. They won't start.

There were negotiations that went on before the government shutdown. Both sides gave, right? I'll give you a little on this. I'll give you a little on that. They came to an agreement. They were going to sign it.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

LEMON: And then the president -- and the president had agreed to it. And then all of a sudden, he realized that president -- what's her name?

POWERS: Ann Coulter.

LEMON: President Coulter and President Limbaugh says, no, no, no. And then he reneged on the deal. So, this isn't a both sides. The president is the one who is not negotiating here.

POWERS: Right. I mean it's not -- even today the description of the meeting, it was kind of crazy-making. You know, I -- you know, saying basically give -- his idea of negotiating is "give me what I want and, you know, everything will be fine." And that's not a negotiation.

He's just stating the obvious that, you know, they're not going to agree to the wall. And he had it right the first time actually, when he said, I'm not going to get the wall and I don't want to shut the government down. And then he had the backlash from Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh. And I think he made a real mistake there.

I think actually he blinked. And he really, I think if he had just gone ahead and do what he wanted to do I don't think -- I just don't think that Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh have more control over the base than Donald Trump does.

LEMON: Well, Kirsten, let me put this up. This is the tweet. Trump tweeted after the meeting was, quote, "a total waste of time." He believes he has the upper hand. Does that, or he is just saying that?

POWERS: I don't think so.

LEMON: OK.

POWERS: I think he realizes that he's in trouble and he's trying every single tactic that he can think of to try to convince the Democrats to cave. And I think he probably also realizes that the Democrats care a lot more about the suffering of the people who aren't being paid right now than Donald Trump does or frankly the American -- the Republicans do.

[22:24:57] The Republicans love to rail against government workers and the government and the bloated government, and they don't have the kind of sympathy, I think, that the Democrats have. And I think he's banking on them caving because of that, though I don't think that's going to happen.

LEMON: David, the president also making some comments earlier today trying to shift the blame. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We really have to think about the people of our country. This is not a fight I wanted. I didn't want this fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Listen, we've all seen the tape of him saying that he would be proud to shut the government down. Does anyone going to buy that?

AXELROD: No, I don't think so. And if you look at polling, the numbers have shifted against him in recent days. More and more people are convinced that he's responsible for the shutdown of the government.

But he did want this fight. Why did he want this fight is the question. I think he wanted this fight in part because he had just come through the most miserable week of his presidency. You know, the Mattis letter had hit.

LEMON: Right.

AXELROD: The probe was closing in on him. And, look, from that standpoint, you know, you spent -- and not just you, but everyone for good reason has spent the first 10 or 15 of their programs talking about the shutdown and getting to the probe stuff later, some of the more uncomfortable stuff later.

So, in that sense, you know, for the moment, it was something that was a tactical move on his part that worked. The problem is he's in this morass now with no obvious way out.

LEMON: So, the practical move, right, that you talked about -- I wonder how practical this is, Kirsten, because you heard Nancy Pelosi's remarks after the meeting goading the president. I'm wondering if that's helping any of the 800,000 workers who are sweating it out right now.

And I'm wondering if the more she pokes at him, the more he may dig in, and if a better strategy would be just be for her and for Chuck Schumer just to say, every time they come out of a meeting, you know, the president is not negotiating and then just pivot to the workers who are facing hard times.

POWERS: Yes, I agree with that. I don't think there's any point in goading him. Look, obviously the base of the Democratic Party likes that probably, but I don't think that that probably helps anything. The truth is if you want -- usually when you're in a negotiation like this and you want to get a solution, you find a way to help the other person get out of it.

LEMON: Right.

POWERS: That's what you do. And, you know, at the same time, I don't want us to forget that this is not the Democrats' fault. This is Donald Trump's fault, that he made a really, really stupid campaign promise that he was going to have Mexico pay for this wall, and now he's demanding that U.S. taxpayers pay for the wall, and he's demanding the Democrats agree to that. And there's no reason that they should agree to that.

But, you know, I really don't see how the end game to this unless Donald Trump finally comes to his senses, which, you know, I don't know that we can bank on.

LEMON: But, David, he never said that Mexico was going to pay for a steel fence with slats in it.

AXELROD: No, he didn't say that. You know, one thing, Don, the vice president came out after Pelosi and Schumer did today to defend him, and he said something that really made the case for who was responsible for all of this. He said the president said if we reopen the government, will you, you know, give me the wall? And they said no.

And basically, confirming what we have heard over and over again from the president, from others, which is he will not reopen the government unless he gets precisely what he wants. And so there's no way -- you know, there's no way around it. He owns this shutdown, and shutdowns are a bad thing to own.

LEMON: Thank you both. I've got to go. Thank you. I appreciate it.

We're learning more about the Russian oligarchs that Paul Manafort provided with campaign polling data. All the latest details plus how those oligarchs may have used the data.

[22:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: New information tonight on the Mueller investigation. A source is telling CNN polling data that Paul Manafort shared with a Russian operative during the campaign was intended to go to two pro- Putin Ukrainian oligarchs. Let's discuss now. Steve Hall is here. He's the retired Chief of the CIA's Russian operations, Laura Coates, a former federal prosecutor, and Michael Isikoff, is the co-author of Russian Roulette: The Inside Story of Putin's War On America and The Election Of Donald Trump.

Good evening. We have a lot to get to tonight. This is so interesting. Michael, CNN is learning that Paul Manafort intended for the polling data to go to the two pro-Putin Ukrainian oligarchs, as I said, and those discussions about a Ukrainian peace deal. What is going on here?

MICHAEL ISIKOFF, YAHOO! NEWS CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know for sure, because we just have very limited information from basically one sentence in a 10-paged memo filed by Manafort's lawyers that was intended to be redacted, blacked out. But they botched -- the lawyers botched the formatting error. And people were able to read through it.

So all we know on this question of polling data is that Manafort shared polling data from the Trump campaign to -- through his former deputy, Konstantin Kilimnik, a guy who U.S. intelligence officials have said was a Russian intelligence asset. Now, where that polling data went, you know, we're learning more. Apparently, you know, the original reports were that it went to Oleg Deripaska, a pro-Putin billionaire oligarch in Russia.

Now, it's being put -- sources are telling CNN and others that it went to these Ukrainian oligarchs. We just don't -- we can say for sure a couple things. Number one, it's improper, on its face, for the campaign chairman to be leaking, slipping internal campaign polling to a foreign intelligence asset like Kilimnik.

LEMON: Right.

ISIKOFF: But what the polling data is, we don't know. Was it really sensitive, highly targeted stuff?

LEMON: OK.

ISIKOFF: You know, or was it simply, you know, basic public polling data that you could read on real clear politics? LEMON: All right. I'm short on time. I got to get the other folks

in here.

ISIKOFF: Right. Sure.

LEMON: As I say, we got a lot to cover. So, Steve, listen, you say the focus needs to be on Oleg Deripaska. So, first remind our viewers who that is, and why his relationship with Manafort is so key here.

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So, briefly, this perhaps need not be as complex as we would think. Deripaska is an oligarch, is a Russian oligarch, which means he's simply a lieutenant of Vladimir Putin's, who will do basically whatever he says. So, the information that Paul Manafort got back to the Russians, whether it was some convoluted route through Ukraine and the oligarchs there, whether it was through Mr. Kilimnik.

[22:35:06] It all went back to an oligarch, probably Deripaska. But more importantly, it just got back to the Kremlin. It got back to Putin, who then could use it as part of his influence operation. You know, whether that's illegal, I will defer to Laura and others. But from a counterintelligence perspective, it's definitely a C.I. problem that needs to be looked into.

There's all sorts of things that the Russians could have done with that type of campaign information.

LEMON: You know, we talked to seven people who have either worked on Presidential campaigns or polling in general, and we got different answers about what sort of information a campaign might have. They say that things like data could show which voters to target, or where your opponent is vulnerable, locations or groups. What kind of messaging hurts your opponent, right?

Why -- we don't know exactly what Manafort shared, but we know some came from a private polling firm. So, this potentially could really help the Russians, right? This is -- this could help.

HALL: Sure. Imagine you're the Russian -- you're the Russian intelligence officer who is involved in trying to get this operation going in the United States. So if -- you know, the darkest imagining thing that you can do is you can say, OK, the Russians sat down with Manafort and others and said, OK, look, you guys don't have to worry about this particular theme or this particular group.

We'll take care of that on social media, or don't worry about that state. We'll look at another state. There have been some who have said, no, the information is public or it's not that important. I don't think so. From a Russian perspective, this could have informed how they conducted their influence operation and made it that much more successful if that's actually what happened.

LEMON: Laura, you've been standing by patiently. So, let's bring you in now. The Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Mark Warner, says that Paul Manafort sharing information with Russians is the closest thing that we've seen to collusion. Is that a fair assessment?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's more than fair. It's absolutely right. All this time, we've had this nebulous term of collusion. There's been speculation as to whether or not it actually applied to what Manafort had done. Given the fact that he had been tried in D.C. and Virginia in terms of his charges against him for things really unrelated to his exact time in the campaign.

Now, we have, not by speculation, Don, but by his attorneys' own admissions in a court filing that he handed over not only the polling data to somebody, hoping it would get to the Kremlin. And mind you, he said he'd work for free for the campaign, knowing he had a debt and a quid pro quo ahead of him to be able to perhaps pay off that debt by getting this valuable information for this intelligence campaign in with the Kremlin.

And number two, you've got the Ukrainian peace plan, that's also part of this filing that lets you know that at the same time Manafort was overseeing the RNC convention where they debuted a change in policy with respect to the Ukraine, that he also was involved in that. This is not speculation about collusion. This is an admission by Paul Manafort as chairman of the campaign.

LEMON: All right. We have so much more to get in. We're going to keep you guys on the other side of this break. So stay with me because we've got a lot more to talk about. Rod Rosenstein, he's planning to leave the Justice Department when the new Attorney General is sworn in. What does this mean for Mueller's investigation?

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It seems every day brings new developments in the Mueller investigation. Just how worried should President Trump be? Back with now Steve, Laura, and Michael, so Michael, let's talk about the Deputy AG, Rod Rosenstein. He's planning to leave the Justice Department shortly after Trump's nominee, AG William Barr is confirmed. Is this a sign that Mueller's investigation is close to wrapping up, you think?

ISIKOFF: I think it could, yeah. I think the reports indicate that Rosenstein wanted to stay through the end of the Mueller investigation. And there's reason to believe that Mueller is in his end game, that, you know, we could be -- he could be wrapping up in the next month or so with a report ready by March. And Rosenstein would stay through the end of it.

I think, you know, he's invested in it. He named Mueller. But, you know, once Bill Barr is confirmed, he's going to be the guy in charge. And, you know, Rod Rosenstein knows that. And, you know, I think he's just going to, you know, turn it over to Barr.

LEMON: So Laura, President Trump will not answer any more questions of the Special Counsel, any of Mueller's questions. That is according to Rudy Giuliani, speaking to Reuters. Can his team call the shots like that? COATES: Well, I think the reason they're trying to do this is because

of the man named Bill Barr, who you'll remember wrote a fascinating, like, 20-page memorandum that was unsolicited talking about how he thought that Mueller was overstepping his bounds by requiring the President or even attempting to require the President to answer questions or submit to an interrogation in any form or fashion.

So I think they're flexing this power now, given the timing of everything, given the fact that they know that Rod Rosenstein is going to be moving on. And, of course, that Bill Barr wanted to have his own deputy in place. And the fact that Barr already has said very, very loudly, that he doesn't believe that Mueller is within his bounds to be able to do so.

This is more than a coincidence of (Inaudible). This is a reliance on that. But, of course, this all presumes that Barr will be confirmed, and he will not be asked to recuse because of that very memo.

LEMON: So Steve, going back to what Rudy Giuliani said to Reuters, if he's saying they think, quote, everything is over. I mean is that what he's saying? It looks like he may be right, though.

HALL: You know, Don, I can't see how this is all going to be over that quickly. The ramifications are going to be significant. And again, I will defer to those, you know, who are better about the legal and the politics than I am. But, you know, in terms of just what has happened to this country at the hands of Vladimir Putin and the Russians using people like Paul Manafort.

[22:44:58] And let's not forget. It's not just Paul Manafort and those little errand boys that were coming to him to carry information back to Russia. It was guys like Michael Flynn. It was guys like Cohen. It was all of these people. And so, you know, it's going to take a long time not only get to the legal or political bottom of this or the political bottom of this, but also, you know, the intelligence and the security to our country, the damage that's been done. It's going to take a while to get to the bottom of all of this stuff.

LEMON: A big question, Michael, will be how much of the final Mueller report will be released, right, especially with Barr being in charge and Rosenstein is out now.

ISIKOFF: Right. You know, there is a big legal fight looming at the end of this, and that is over claims of executive privilege. When the Trump White House cooperated with the Mueller investigation and allowed Don McGahn, the White House Counsel, and others to testify, to spend hours with Mueller's prosecutors.

They did so with a proviso that they would reserve the right to invoke executive privilege on anything that McGahn and others told Mueller about their conversations with the President. So, you know, when Mueller's report is finally written, anything that reflects the information that Don McGahn and others told them, the White House can claim executive privilege if it chooses to do so.

And that is almost certainly the prescription for a major legal battle over this. Clearly, Jerry Nadler at the House Judiciary is not going to accept that. They're going to fight it. And, you know, this could end up in the courts.

LEMON: Well, speaking of executive privilege, Laura, it's also -- the Washington post is reporting that the White House is beefing up its legal team preparing for that. Is executive privilege going to work?

COATES: Well, they should beef up because, of course, you know the Nixon era has told us that executive privilege is not going to be enough to try to circumvent a judicial process. I mean there is a valid concern for executive privilege. And you want the President to have very candid conversations. But he can't have this executive privilege asserted in the hopes of covering up if there is a crime.

And also, remember largely most of the things that Mueller has been investigating has been about the time before he was actually inaugurated as President. So if we're talking about things that happened when he was simply candidate Trump, executive privilege is not going to help him or be anything he can hang his hat on.

After that, if Mueller's probe is far more expansive in the line of obstruction charges if it involves President of the United States at all, he may have a stronger argument. But as candidate Trump, executive privilege won't help him much.

LEMON: Thank you, Laura. Thank you, Steve. Thanks, Michael. Thank you. I appreciate it. The President stormed out of today's meeting with congressional leaders, calling it a total waste of time. The Assistant House Speaker, Congressman Ben Ray Lujan responds next.

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So in less than two days, 800,000 federal workers will miss their paychecks if the shutdown continues. And let's face it. There's no end in sight right now. I want to bring now Congressman Ben Ray Lujan. He represents New Mexico's Third District and is new Assistant House Speaker. I'm so happy to have you on, Representative. Thank you for joining us. Good evening.

REP. BEN RAY LUJAN (D), NEW MEXICO: Don, thank you for having me tonight. I really appreciate it.

LEMON: You know we're in the 19th day of the shutdown. And today, the President walked out of a meeting with congressional leaders, saying bye-bye. What is your reaction to that?

LUJAN: Well, look. I have every reason to believe that the actions that are being reported coming out of the White House are true. The President, time after time, slammed that table on The Apprentice show, and now he's doing it again. The problem is now he's the President of the United States, Don. Look, the President's temper tantrums are getting in the way of responsible governing.

And what he doesn't seem to get is on Friday, 800,000 people across America, federal employees are not going to get a check. That means no groceries. They're not going to be able to make their rent payments, car payments. What's going on?

LEMON: Yeah.

LUJAN: He just doesn't know what it's like to walk in the shoes of everyday folks like the family that I was raised in. It just -- he just doesn't get it.

LEMON: The President and his allies have been insisting all along -- well, insisting now that there is a crisis on our southern border. Your district isn't directly on the border but you visited it recently. Is that what you saw?

LUJAN: I actually went down to visit the border with members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Chairman Joaquin Castro in addition (Inaudible) and Al Green of Texas. What we found in Antelope Wells was no running water, Don. The water was contaminated. They couldn't drink it. They couldn't bathe with it. They couldn't cook with it. And I'm not just talking for the asylum seekers, for the agents that work there.

Look, those are the conditions that we're facing across the country, but especially down in New Mexico. And the crisis at the border is the humanitarian crisis caused by this administration. It is this President's, Donald Trump's own policies and Steven Miller, and all the garbage that they're hearing from Sean Hannity that is putting this crisis in play. It's wrong.

These are people. And it's the President's own policies of metering and sending people away from the ports of entry, which is where they're going to turn themselves over to border patrol to seek asylum because they're fleeing violence in the world, bombs, bringing young babies because they're scared of getting raped or murdered. That's who has come in to look for help.

It's just wrong. But make no mistake. It's the humanitarian crisis that has been caused by this administration that we as Democrats are working with our colleagues to say let's end this.

LEMON: I want to get this in, because you have said that you're not going to give the President a penny for his wall. In the past, you called the border wall ridiculous. Our friends at the Daily Show found this clip of President Trump giving an address. This is at Wagner College in Staten Island, 2004. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:55:09] DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Never ever give up. Don't give up. Don't allow it to happen. If there's a concrete wall in front of you, go through it. Go over it. Go around it. But get to the other side of that wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: It's amazing that they -- I mean, to recap, the President says don't let a wall get in your way, even if it's concrete. LUJAN: You just can't make this stuff up with the President, Don. And look, whether it's him making that comment to clearly a ceremony, kudos to the people, the Daily Show, for finding it, or the President somehow suggesting that President Barack Obama should be stepping down when the shutdown took place under him. Well, now President Trump is at the top. You know what does he say? With the very words that he used in the past, I mean this stuff you just can't make it up, Don.

LEMON: Hmm. Representative Lujan, thank you so much, best of luck to you.

LUJAN: Thank you so much.

LEMON: New information coming out of the Russia investigation almost daily. But even with everything that we know how, Robert Mueller knows a lot more. We're going to talk about it next.

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