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Don Lemon Tonight
Trump Claims Absolute Right on National Emergency; Michael Cohen to Testify in Congress; Rep. Steve King Under Fire for Racist Comments; TV Weatherman Fired After Using Racial Slur on Air; "American Style" Premieres Sunday at 9:00 p.m. on CNN. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired January 10, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. President Trump ramping up his threats to declare a national emergency if Congress won't give him his wall. Here is what he just said to Sean Hannity on Fox News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we don't make a deal with Congress, most likely I will do that. I would actually say I would. I can't imagine any reason why not because I'm allowed to do it. The law is 100 percent on my side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, officials telling CNN TONIGHT that the White House counsel's office is already laying out the legal groundwork for the move. They are advising the president's aides to use the word crisis as much as possible.
Lawyers suggest that the more times that they say it, the more citations it will have in filing a legal defense. But the fact is this is a manufactured crisis, one of the president's own making. And his border trip today in saying the word crisis over and over again is not going to change that.
It's also not going to change the fact that 800,000 workers are going to go without a paycheck tomorrow. We are on the verge of the 21st day of this partial government shutdown. And don't forget, this is a shutdown the president said he'd be proud to own.
Fareed Zakaria joins me now. Good evening. Good to see you, sir. The president says that he has the absolute right to declare a national emergency to get the border wall that he wants. Does that sound like the president of a democracy or a dictator to you?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Well, that's the problem thing here. We've heard presidents declare crisis and emergencies, take emergency powers, disregard constitutional practices, disregard the other branches of government, and those presidents are President Putin, President Sisi of Egypt, President Erdogan of Turkey. What Donald Trump is doing is something very unusual. It is not something the president of the United States has often done. But you know, if you ask from a purely legal point of view, does the president have a case that he can declare this in an emergency, unfortunately, yes.
There is a 1976 legislation that empowers the president. It's very broadly written. It does not define what an emergency is and the president can do it. It will probably be challenged legally, but there is a very good chance the court still upholds it.
LEMON: It's a bad precedent.
ZAKARIA: It's a terrible precedent because, you know, so far you have rarely had presidents literally manufacture a crisis, you know, border crossings are at their lowest point in decades. Illegal immigration is down for the last 10 years. In fact, every trend line that Donald Trump is saying is going up is actually going down.
LEMON: And why is he --
ZAKARIA: It's really black is white and white is black.
LEMON: An obvious question, why is he doing it? Because --
ZAKARIA: He is doing it because what got Donald Trump the Republican nomination, what separated him from all those 16 Republican candidates was immigration, was the wall, was the fact that he was going to be tougher than anyone else. And that is the heart of his, you know, his campaign. That was where the base -- why the base loves him.
And this has turned into a base-only strategy. A part of me thinks that one of the reasons here is this is the anti-impeachment strategy. What he is doing is locking in a base so strongly that no Republican senator would dare to, you know, cross it because they will worry about being primaried (ph) and such.
LEMON: Let me read you a portion of your piece that you write in your new piece where you write about the funding, the wall funding. You write in part, "I am struck by the way in which in one sense President Trump has already achieved success. He has been able to conjure up a crisis out of thin air, elevate this manufactured emergency to national attention, paralyze the government and perhaps even invoke warlike authority and bypass Congress. He may still fail, but it should worry us that a president -- any president -- can do what Trump has done."
You're saying we should be worried.
ZAKARIA: You know, I have always been a kind of strong presidential powers kind of guy because particularly during the cold war and when there was nuclear, you know, issues, you thought the most important thing the president needed was flexibility and the ability to counter any kind of moves from the Soviet Union.
And as a result of that, I think the president has accumulated enormous both moral and legal powers. There is a great article in "The Atlantic" that points out the president now has just extraordinary powers, particularly over national emergencies. But I think we all accepted this because we thought that we were going to be dealing with normal presidents who would observe precedent and norms and ethical boundaries and constitutional practices in history.
What you are dealing with now is somebody who is going to do anything, "whatever it takes to win." And if you approach it from that point of view, it shines a light on this troubling feature of American constitutional government right now, which is the president has too much power. The president has too many unchecked powers. Congress does not act as the check it was meant to be.
[23:05:01] By the way, everyone of these presidential emergencies, there are currently 30 going on right now, you know, the way we have never ended the emergency after 9/11. We have never ended the emergency after the Iran hostage crisis, the Jimmy Carter announcement. It is still going on.
Congress was meant to review every one of these every six months. There are I think 80 cases of them. Congress has never reviewed one. So Congress has abdicated this authority. The president's powers are unchecked and into this loose environment walk Donald Trump who is literally willing to do anything it takes.
LEMON: So why hasn't -- to date, he has not done what he said, you know, I have the power to do this national emergency. Why hasn't he done it yet?
ZAKARIA: I think he is just trying to see if he can get a deal through Congress. I think he thought the Democrats would fold. I think he is surprised that Pelosi and Schumer toughed it out and my prediction is he will use these powers.
LEMON: So, if this does go to the courts, right, which it probably will if he declares a national emergency, there is a chance, as you said, he could get what he wants but there is also a chance that he doesn't. How might this end up? If the courts say you guys got to take care of --
ZAKARIA: So with three possible scenarios, the first is when the court faces separation of powers issues between Congress and the presidency, sometimes it says, "You guys, you sort this out. Don't bring this to the court." There is a famous line in the justice's opinion where he says the constitution is an invitation for the president and Congress to struggle over power. In other words, we can't adjudicate this.
The second one as I say, is they look at the legislation and the legislation 1976 -- and our emergency powers legislation is pretty broad. It does not define what a national emergency is, which kind of leaves it to the president to define it.
And the third is that they could say this is really just a step too far. My own gut is that it will be one or two. In other words, the president has a good chance. And remember, this goes to the Supreme Court and Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh are both strong executives, strong presidential powers guys. And, you know, Brett Kavanaugh certainly would seem is very beholden to Donald Trump.
LEMON: In ways of support during a very contentious nomination process. So, you said in the past it's almost always a terrible idea to do this.
ZAKARIA: Yes. If you look back in the past when presidents -- nobody has been as blatant as Donald Trump in terms of, as I say, literally out whole cloth creating this emergency. But when we've hyped the threat (ph), the president has created this mood of national crisis emergency, we have got this big danger.
You know, you go back to the Alien and Sedition Acts. You go back to the Japanese internment. You go back to the Red Scare, McCarthyism, the Iraq war. It's all been bad ideas. It was always an invitation for terrible public policy, the abridgement civil rights. It's been things that have been stains on American history.
And so, to watch this happen in an even more egregious way, because at least in those cases there was often some kernel of reality, to see it being done on a case where there is nothing and we are just manufacturing crisis, hysteria, paranoia so that the president can get what he wants, you know this is just going to look awful in American history.
LEMON: Never in your wildest dreams.
ZAKARIA: No. I mean, but as I said, that's why it was always the first strong president, and Donald Trump has made me realized, you know, James Madison, in the federalist papers once explains why he was putting all these checks and balances. And he said, if men were angels, no government would be necessary.
LEMON: Right.
ZAKARIA: And Donald Trump just reminded us that men can often not be angels.
LEMON: Certainly aren't angels. Thank you, Fareed. I appreciate it. Don't miss "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS," Sunday at 10:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. eastern. Again, our thanks to Fareed Zakaria.
The president's former fixer will publicly testify in front of Congress next month and Michael Cohen says he is looking forward to it. We're going to discuss it with John Dean, there he is, next.
[23:10:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The president's former fixer, Michael Cohen, the man who kept his secrets for years will testify publicly before Congress next month. And the president says he is not a bit worried, not at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Back in Washington there is some big news about Michael Cohen. He has agreed to testify before the House Democrats next month. What do you think of that? Are you worried about that?
TRUMP: I'm not worried about it at all, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Remember when Cohen told George Stephanopoulos this just last month?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: So you're done with the lying.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER: I am done with the lying. I am done being loyal to President Trump. And my first loyalty belongs to my wife, my daughter, my son and this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Here to discuss now, former Nixon White House counsel, John Dean. Wow! John, here we go, right.
JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: They are. They are.
LEMON: Good evening. I have to take a step back here because we are talking about a guy who said that he would take a bullet for Trump. He was his fixer for a decade. Now, he is going to publicly testify against the president of the United States. What kind of a spectacle do you think that is going to be?
DEAN: I think it will be -- it will depend a lot on how the White House reacts pre-hearing. If they go on the attack against him it will only build up interest and build up the audience. If they literally say nothing and it just comes on, it won't build up quite as big an audience.
[23:15:03] LEMON: Yeah. I'm just wondering at this point, though, why would he have to lie about anything because you heard Michael Cohen say that he is done with the lying. He has no loyalty to this president. Republicans are clearly going to go after him. Is Cohen a credible witness?
DEAN: Well, I think he is because he has already paid the penalty of lying before Congress. He knows what that's about. The last thing in the world he wants to do right now is lie to the Congress, rather, he wants to improve his position with the court so he can go and ask for a little leniency on his three-year sentence. And this is the venue he can do it in.
LEMON: We have been told, John, that Cohen wants to be the John Dean quite frankly of Trump's presidency. How do you think history will remember Michael Cohen? Will they remember him as a liar or do you think that Mueller has the goods to ultimately corroborate what he says?
DEAN: Well, I don't know the answer to that. We won't know until he testifies. Apparently, he is not going to be able to testify in totality that the special counsel has released him to appear before Congress to speak publicly but have some areas be reserved and not be addressed like the Moscow tower or we don't know what else that he might have reveal in his sessions with the prosecutor. So, it's going to be partial testimony.
LEMON: Yes.
DEAN: So, that's a partial impression of it for him.
LEMON: So give me the key questions that Cohen must answer behind closed doors do you think. What do you want to know most?
DEAN: Well, I don't -- I think his importance is not behind closed doors. I think it's in the public to educate the American people about this man who he spent a decade with, over a decade, who he knows intimately. I remember after Nixon wrote his memoir reacting to my testimonies, he said, it really wasn't the Watergate material that I gave the committee the trouble in.
It was everything else I gave, about how sleazy the place was and the operations. That's what -- that's really what he needs to lay out -- what Cohen needs to lay out so they get a measure of the man. And that is what I tried to do when testifying about Nixon.
LEMON: Well, I was going to say there are ways to ask questions, right, and ways to answer them so you get your point across and people know without actually, you know, just laying it out, right?
DEAN: Well, I suspect he will submit a prepared statement. I heard him earlier today being counseled to do that early and let the committee study it. That's the exact of the opposite of what he should do. The minority will get a hold of that statement and they will make mince meat out of it before he even arrives. So, he shouldn't give his testimony, his written testimony until the morning he arrives.
LEMON: So don't do it. Don't give the written testimony.
DEAN: Don't give it. Don't give it until -- no, you can use it when you are there, but don't pre-submit it.
LEMON: OK, got you. I also want your take on the potential White House effort to assert executive privilege to block Mueller's report from going public. Do they have a case?
DEAN: Not really. At best, a weak case, but most of the things that could come up have already been waved. And the regulations that create the special counsel make -- force him to report to Congress. They require him to report to Congress. So, contrary to the thought that it is all going to be blocked up, Department of Regulations send material right to Congress.
LEMON: We are also learning, John, that the White House thinks that Mueller's team is preparing to use the president's public statements and lies to build an obstruction of justice case. How worried should they be -- should Trump be? DEAN: Well, he should be worried because of the statements, no question because he lies all the time and distorts and does try to influence witnesses and try to bend the facts. And public statements were used against Nixon in his impeachment and they had counted.
LEMON: Thank you, John Dean. Always a pleasure, sir.
DEAN: You're welcome.
LEMON: Thank you. Let's talk about the consequences now of this shutdown. A standoff between Trump and the Democrats has stretched the shutdown into its 20th day. And if it lasts until Saturday, it will be the longest continuous shutdown in U.S. history. Well, tomorrow federal workers will miss their first paychecks of the year. An air traffic controller shared his first pay stub of the year with CNN.
Look at that, up on the screen. Can you imagine that? The pay, zero dollars, zero cents. Zero dollars can pay zero bills and it can buy zero groceries. The truth is no pay is just one of the many problems facing the government and its 800,000 affected employees.
CNN has a running list of all the shutdown effects and they have consequences nationwide. The FDA has stopped some inspections of food including fruit, meat, seafood and vegetables.
[23:20:04] National Parks Service is using money for future projects to keep some parks open. Federal government missed paying its $5 million water bill to D.C. And about 41,000 active duty Coast Guardsman are working without pay.
The shutdown is also having an impact on workers task with immigration issues. At the same time, Trump claims that there is a crisis at our southern border. Border Patrol agents are still working, but without pay. Some Border Patrol officers have even sued the Trump administration over it. ICE, immigration enforcement arm of the Department of Homeland Security is at risk of running out of funds and unable to pay contract dues.
Now, with no deal in sight to end the shutdown, earlier today Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer called for the Senate to take up legislation advanced by House Democrats to re-open chartered (ph) parts of the federal government not related to a potential border wall.
Well, that way some of the government could open while funding negotiations continue on parts of the government related to a wall. So, the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, blocked that move and here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: The political stunts are not going to get us anywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Well, he may be right about that. Remember, it was the
president who threatened a shutdown over the wall in a televised meeting with Democratic leaders.
Last week, President Trump held a non-briefing in the White House briefing room with leaders from the National Border Patrol Council. On Tuesday, Trump made his first and only primetime Oval Office address, which was riddled with falsehoods.
Yesterday, he walked out of negotiations to end the shutdown. And today, the president went down to the border to make his pitch for the wall. The government is still shutdown. So it's hard not to agree that that was a political stunt and political stunts in fact get us nowhere. We'll be right back.
[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Congressman Steve King under fire tonight for controversial comments in an interview with "The New York Times." OK, here's what he said. He said "White nationalists, white supremacists, Western civilization -- how did that language become offensive? Why did I sit in classes teaching me about the merits of our history and our civilization?"
King's comments drew condemnation from both sides of the aisle and he later attempted to clarify them, but this is just the latest in a long list of offensive and outrageous remarks from the Iowa Republican.
So, let's talk now with former Representative Luis Gutierrez. Thank you for coming on the show. It's good to have you. And Scott, you know, you're on all the time.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You got it (ph).
LEMON: No, we appreciate both of you coming on. Thank you so much. Representative, I'm going to start with you. You know Steve King. You served with him for more than a dozen years up until just last week. Is he a racist?
LUIS GUTIERREZ, FORMER ILLINOIS CONGRESSMAN: Absolutely. There is no doubt -- there is no doubt in anybody's mind. The Republican Party and the Republican leadership know it. The world knows it. And -- but at the same time, think about it a moment, Don.
He barely got 50 percent of the vote this last time when he ran. So, even the blue wave extended itself to rural Iowa, deep rural Iowa, deep Trump country in Iowa, he got 50.4 percent of the vote. And I need to tell you something --
LEMON: How is it -- how is that even possible that someone with these views is a member of Congress?
GUTIERREZ: Because unfortunately we live in the era of Trump. We live in the era in which being anti-immigrant -- because there are a couple of other contenders to the throne. Remember Kris Kobach, the Secretary of State of Kansas? He is infamous for two things, Don. Number one, the president said, you know, I lost my by three million vote, the popular vote to Hillary Clinton. But that was only because three million illegal immigrants voted for Hillary Clinton. So you put Kobach at the charge of finding those three million people. Well, that was a failure.
And the second thing he was infamous for is he rode into the Republican convention in 2016 and he wrote into the platform, let's build a wall. And then you have -- remember Lou Barletta, the congressman from Pennsylvania who was the mayor of Hazleton, beat immigrants every day, just on immigrants every day, as xenophobic as he can be. That got him to the U.S. Congress, but when he attempted to become the U.S. senator from Pennsylvania --
LEMON: You don't mean physically --
GUTIERREZ: No. What I'm saying here is he'd speak the drum, the anti- immigrant drum against immigrant and he went from mayor to U.S. Congress. And when he attempted this last election -- so, this blue wave that brought 40 new Democrats to the House of Representatives, let's remember one thing, they all followed Donald Trump's lead at being anti-immigrant and the communities across this country rejected them.
LEMON: OK, we got to get Scott. Scott, do you want to respond to any of that because I have a couple of questions for you, as well.
JENNINGS: Sure. Look, I agree with what the Republican leader, Kevin McCarthy said that the language that Steve King used has no place in our politics or in our party. He knows better.
You know, the Republican Party doesn't have a lot of margin for error on these issues and Steve King frequently upends what I think is the good work that's being done in the Republican Party to actually do a lot of outreach.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: I don't think being for border security or being for immigration policies is racist but I do think what Steve King said is racist and is going to be interpreted as such and I don't like it one bit.
[23:30:00] LEMON: Let's start from the beginning. This is what you mentioned Kevin McCarthy. I think it's important for you guys to put it there. "Everything about white supremacy and white nationalism go against who we are as a nation. Steve's language is reckless, wrong, and has no place in our society."
My question is, people say they give a lot of comments and then they do nothing about it, Scott, and they are still members of the party. As the former representative was saying, there are still members out there who are using this sort of racist and terrible language. Why not stand up? Why not censure (ph) him? Why not do something?
JENNINGS: Well, I don't think it is for Kevin McCarthy to decide who the representative from that district in Iowa is going to be. I think it is for the Republicans in that district to decide. And frankly, I think the Republicans ought to pick somebody else. Now, I'm all for more Republicans in the Congress but I want Republicans in the Congress who don't have --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But when you say there is no place for it in society, why is there -- why is there a place for it in the Congress if there is no place for it in society?
JENNINGS: There is not. I don't believe there is a place for it in the Congress. And that's what I said. I want the Republicans in that district to do better and pick somebody better. They can, and I hope they do.
LEMON: Representative?
GUTIERREZ: Let me tell you, I don't only think that Steve King should be censured, I think he should be expelled from the House of Representatives. This is not the first time that he has been condemned by every corner. But the Republican Party, you know, really has to take him to task very significant.
The problem that they have is, they have a president who talks about hordes of people crossing the border, talks about people who come here simply to have children in this country, and he uses very derogatory language, talks about Mexicans being murderers, rapists, really bad people, as he says, and then he uses that despicable comments.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let me read you his response.
GUTIERREZ: And then we expect -- then we expect -- go ahead.
LEMON: You expect people to be any different, you're saying, than what the president's language is?
GUTIERREZ: How can you really expect --
LEMON: How can you really expect to what?
GUTIERREZ: How can you people to be -- how can you expect to be any different when the leader of the party, the man that they nominated, achieved the nomination on the basis of being anti-immigrant?
LEMON: Let me just give his response.
GUTIERREZ: Do you remember when there was a judge -- go ahead.
LEMON: You're talking about Judge Curiel. Listen, after the article was published --
GUTIERREZ: Yes. LEMON: -- Representative King -- and I just want to read in part. This is what he said, OK? He said, "Today, The New York Times is suggesting that I am advocate for white nationalism and white supremacy. I want to make one thing abundantly clear. I reject those labels and the evil ideology that they define. Under any fair political definition, I am simply a nationalist."
Do you think that is enough? Quickly, representative, and I want to ask Scott. Is that enough?
GUTIERREZ: Absolutely not. We understand that the term nationalist means fascist in the United States of America. It's tied to the Ku Klux Klan. It's tied to white supremacy.
LEMON: Scott?
JENNINGS: I mean, I think the initial comment speaks for itself. Anybody is going to have to come and try to clean it up. But this is not the first time we have gone around and around on these issues with Congressman King. So, like I said, I think it's incumbent upon the Republicans in that district to clean up this mess that he keeps causing for the national Republican Party.
LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate having you on, both of you. Thank you so much.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Here is a story everybody is talking about. A jumble of words which some people thought sounded like a racial slur ends up costing a TV meteorologist his job. The man who said it calls it a big misunderstanding. I'm going to talk to him next.
[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So everybody is talking about this story. Jeremy Kappell, the TV meteorologist in Rochester, New York who lost his job after he used a racial slur on air, one he insists was an unintentional slip of the tongue. It happened last Friday. I want you to listen now, and I want you to be the judge for yourself. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREMY KAPPELL, TV METEOROLOGIST: The way it looked out in Martin Luther coon -- King Jr. Park.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, that set off a firestorm on social media. The mayor and the city council of Rochester called for his firing and after an internal investigation over the weekend, Kappell was fired by WHEC. He joins me now from Rochester.
Thank you, sir, for joining us. So -- all right, so before we get to the conversation, you said that this was unintentional.
KAPPELL: That's correct.
LEMON: Explain to me. How so?
KAPPELL: I mean, the word that many people thought they heard, you know, I don't know if I have ever said that word in my life. I certainly know not in the last 20 years or so of my professional career. So, it just wouldn't happen.
LEMON: Yeah. Do you know that that is a slur that people use against Dr. King, right? I'm sure you have since learned that.
KAPPELL: You know, I am sure I have heard it and I know of it certainly now. I know a lot about it. But at the time when I was mispronouncing his name, Don, it was a mispronunciation and I could tell that I was fumbling these words a little bit.
[23:39:59] The moment I realized that I was fumbling, I immediately put the emphasis on "King," not knowing that I had made a major error. I did what all of us journalists do. I moved on.
LEMON: Is that -- so, you know, as we have been talking about the story, I've been hearing people, they say, well, maybe he didn't intend to do it, but it's -- maybe it's something that people in the area, whatever called that part, because they're trying to be funny or cute because they're racist. Have you ever heard that call that?
KAPPELL: No, never.
LEMON: All right. So I just want -- I want to get that out of the way. So, that was a baseline because I'm on TV every night for two hours straight live. It is just me. And I have --
KAPPELL: Right.
LEMON: -- jumbled words before. I have said things I didn't even realize that I said. I've misspoken on the air. And in the moment, you try not to draw attention to it. As you say, you moved on.
KAPPELL: Right.
LEMON: So, is that -- what do you say to that?
KAPPELL: Yeah, well, I was not aware of any major error at all. I knew that there was a bit of mispronunciation in there occurred when I combined two words. It's obviously a very unfortunate result, but not coming to my consciousness that there was a major, major problem or really much of a problem at all. I just moved on.
I have explained in some other interviews, Don, that -- the meteorologists, some people don't know, they are completely unscripted most of the time, at least most meteorologists in middle size markets which --
LEMON: There is no teleprompter. You're doing it -- it's all -- it's just you and the green screen and whatever graphics and stuff that you generated. KAPPELL: You got it.
LEMON: The question, why did it take you -- why did it take you three days to explain it? What happened?
KAPPELL: Well, let me first explain that not only did I not hear it, but the other three people that were in the studio at the time with me, my co-anchors, they also did not hear it. The people in the control room, also no one came forward and said they heard it, either. So this was about at 5:45 on Friday evening when it occurred. The whole evening went by. No one noticed anything from the public.
LEMON: Yeah.
KAPPELL: There was not one phone call that we know of. There was not an e-mail. There was not anything on social, no word.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. Let me play you this. I want to play this because I saw this. Let's play it and I will give you my impression of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAPPELL: Unfortunately, I spoke a little too fast when I was referencing Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., so fast to the point where I jumbled a couple of words. In my mind, I knew I mispronounced, but there was no malice. There was nothing that I could have -- I had no idea the way it came across to many people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So listen. I thought that your apology was sincere. That's my opinion. And I don't understand why you were fired. Again, we make mistakes. I believe you if you say that you haven't -- that it wasn't your intention, then it wasn't your intention. We all make mistakes.
Even Dr. King's daughter is speaking out about the situation, saying that you should not have been fired. This is what she told TMZ. Bernice King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNICE KING, DAUGHTER OF DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.: Yes, there has to be some repercussions. I don't think it should go as far in this particular instance as firing an individual. Obviously, an apology is warranted. And yes, he did apologize. Some people may feel he just apologized because, you know, he was caught or it was an outrage. But at the end of the day, you know, I can't question the person's intent when they apologize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: This is Al Roker. You know the legendary meteorologist on NBC and on Today show.
KAPPELL: Of course.
LEMON: He said, "I think Jeremy Kappell made an unfortunate flub and should be given the chance to apologize on NBC -- on News10NBC. Anyone who has done live TV and screwed up -- Google any number of one I've done -- understands. I certainly understand."
What do you say to all this? Dr. King and probably someone you look up to, and now me --
KAPPELL: First of all --
LEMON: -- thinking that you shouldn't have been fired.
KAPPELL: Thank you so much, Don. First of all, let's start with the late Dr. King's daughter. It is absolutely humbling that she even took the time out of her day to address my issue, to address me, and to be connected with the flesh and blood of Dr. Martin Luther King. It is truly a humbling experience.
Let me go on to Al. Al, I always revered him but, you know, to have his endorsement, it's almost beyond words, and I have reached out to him and I have told him profusely just how much it meant to me. That's -- I couldn't ask for anymore.
And now you, Don, thank you and thank you, thank you.
[23:45:02] LEMON: You don't need -- you're welcome but you don't have to say that. So, listen, I've got to run. As you know, we work in time, right?
KAPPELL: Yes.
LEMON: We only have a limited amount of time. What would you like to say to people in this moment?
KAPPELL: I think the most important thing is not what happened to me and my family. It's that this happens to a lot of people, and this has happened to a lot of people. I think that if I can say anything, it's that we all need to think beyond ourselves and think more of the other person.
Instead of rushing to judgment, why the rush? Based on what? A few second clip of somebody bubbling (ph) some words on a video you run across on social media, you're going to pass instant judgment on that person.
You know, Martin Luther King said it himself. He said it the best, that judge a man not by his skin but by the content of his character. I would further that. Judge a man not by a little clip you saw on social media but on the man himself and his life.
LEMON: Thank you, Jeremy Kappell. Good luck to you. Keep us updated, OK?
KAPPELL: I will. Thank you, Don.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The way we dress doesn't just reflect our taste in clothes. It reflects what's going on in the world around us from World War II to women's movement from rebel without a cause to the rise of MTV. All these forces influence what Americans wear every day.
Now the new CNN original series is called "American Style." It looks at how the social, political and economic changes of the past 100 years have defined America's unique style and identity. Here's a quick preview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA KARAN, FASHION DESIGNER: I'm a woman who works. And most working women were wearing suits, shirts and ties. And that wasn't really me. I had an idea, seven easy pieces, and really simple.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her seven easy pieces were created because she said, this is all you need to feel secure and confident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a new power dressing that is distinctly feminine and, quite frankly, very alluring.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Joining me now is one of the icons of American style, none other than Miss Donna Karan. You completely changed the game, especially in the '80s, the way women dressed at work. Remember the big shoulders? They dressed like men in suits, right?
KARAN: Yeah.
LEMON: And you changed that. How did you -- how did you go about that?
KARAN: For me, it was about the body.
LEMON: Right.
KARAN: You know, I saw all these women looking like men.
LEMON: Right.
KARAN: You know, they either wore fancy dresses to lunch, the ladies who lunch, or the ladies who went to work.
LEMON: With their big boxy (ph) suits on and then --
KARAN: They were just wearing shirts and ties and, you know, really looking like men.
LEMON: Right.
KARAN: And I go, I can't wear this, you know? I'm a body suit person, you know? I go to yoga in the morning and I do my leotard and I took a piece of fabric, wrapped it around. And I love tailoring because my father was a tailor, and he died when I was three.
So, tailoring was something inside my blood. So, I put out this thing called seven easy pieces. I did it for myself. I'm very selfish. You don't know that part about me yet.
LEMON: So, during political, politics have an influence on fashion.
KARAN: Well, I dressed President Clinton for the White House -- for his inauguration.
LEMON: So, what are the political and cultural forces now? How do you think that's shaping what's happening in American style now?
KARAN: I think that's happened in the world of communication. American style is the world of style. There was a time when I started designing, you know, Paris looked one way, you had to have red lipstick and kind of funky and great looking.
Italy was all neutral. And London had, you know, needles in their head and half the hair coming out. New York was kind of blah. Now, I guarantee you, you cannot tell one person from another. We all look alike.
LEMON: So, you're saying it's global.
KARAN: It's global fashion right now.
LEMON: We're all together.
KARAN: It's -- I'm not that happy about it.
LEMON: You like -- you like that London looked different, Paris looked different, New York looked different?
KARAN: I loved it. I love the preservation of culture. I truly, truly do. And I think there's something so wonderful when you have your own uniqueness. And that's what I search for.
LEMON: What designers do you admire? Calvin?
KARAN: Yohji (ph). Well, of course, half meant (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Because you guys worked (ph) together, right?
KARAN: So there was, when we started, there was Oscar and Bill, and I will never forget that I have to say when I worked for Anne, you know, when I was 18 years old.
LEMON: Anne Klein.
KARAN: Anne Klein. They took me out of school and we went to Versailles. And it was Anne, Oscar, Bill and Stephen Burrows. LEMON: Right.
KARAN: And the French were Chanel, St. Laurent, Dior, oh, five other, and only two of us are still here --
LEMON: Really?
KARAN: -- Which is really mind blowing.
LEMON: Who do you admire?
KARAN: I love Yohji (ph). I love a lot of designers but I'm finding today, Calvin, of course, Ralph and Armani. And I think what Karl has done with Chanel, even though I really did want to design Chanel.
LEMON: I want to ask you because, are people expressing their feelings, you think, through fashion? Can you tell us about conscious consumerism? Tell me about that.
KARAN: To me, that's the most important thing for me. You know, it's not about dressing on the outside, but addressing the inside.
LEMON: That start with Urban Zen because that's --
[23:54:59] KARAN: No, it was something that I always did. Well, when the AIDS epidemic broke out, I said, listen, we've got to do something. I went to Perry Ellis at the time, who was the head of CFDA. He said, Donna, this is a private issue. We should not be discussing it.
I said, Perry, we've got to. We're all losing all our friends. So, I said, why don't we make a place where people can shop and all the money goes to finding out and communicating what AIDS is all about? So, we had customers walk in and -- so, we did not do anything until after Perry passed away. And I was losing all my friends. We were all losing friends at that age. And it was unacceptable.
LEMON: I think people forget your altruism and just how much you've done for fashion and for philanthropy through fashion. And I think you started that, you helped create that, and I am very proud of you for doing that. I want to say thank you for doing that.
KARAN: Would you come to Haiti with me?
LEMON: I will go anywhere with you.
KARAN: OK. Wait, we have a whole plan.
LEMON: I can't wait for you to dress me, too, and stop talking about my ugly suits.
KARAN: I love your suit. I think the color is perfect.
LEMON: Thank you, Donna.
KARAN: OK. LEMON: Thanks for watching. Our coverage continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
