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Don Lemon Tonight
President Trump Got His Match in Pelosi; Four U.S. Men Killed by ISIS in Syria; Giuliani Twisting Statements. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired January 16, 2019 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: That is different than a pattern and a practice of racist behavior of condoning it, saying it, doing putting it in --
(CROSSTALK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: There are moments when you do the right thing. God forbid you and I are out, which, you know, happens on a regular basis, somebody comes up and says something ugly to you. It happens. Who knows what happens to me for doing that?
LEMON: You embrace them. You hug them.
CUOMO: Yes, I hug them. I hug them with three knuckles that makes their eyes roll into their head and they wake up seven minutes with headache, laid it.
The point is you stand up against the ugly people and you do what has to be done in the moment because none of us tolerate that kind of B.S. That's what you do for the people you care about.
The president's job is to care about all of us, and he's got to stand up against it. And you can't let him get away with saying nothing. Either you're for King, or you're against him.
LEMON: Yes. So, you say that, right? And I believe that if that actually happened if we were out.
CUOMO: A hundred percent.
LEMON: But do you think -- do you think that there is some -- and I'm just -- OK. So, people always credit us because we're just quite honest with each other. But do you think there is some naivete in that, that people would actually do that, that people actually do that in situations that aren't necessarily that dramatic in their everyday lives when it comes to their interactions with people who don't look like them?
CUOMO: Regardless your take on the social reality, whether people step up as the good Samaritan or whether you believe in the Kitty Genovese model where people stay away when horrible things are happening because of self-preservation, it doesn't matter to me. It's about what is the right thing to do in a situation.
And obviously, you know, I'm reaching into what you could easily argue and my therapist would and most in my family agree, that I should keep my hands-off people when they enrage me. But that's what I do in protection of those who I love.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You need to start use something Gillette razors.
CUOMO: That's exactly right. I have to use a whole bag of them as have been suggested to me, and that's weird when I have absolutely no beard. The point is you've got to do the right thing in the moment, and this is easy.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: The president doesn't have to get in a fistfight with anybody. He has to do what's obvious. He has to take the layup and make the unopposed layup, put the ball in the basket and say, we're not about this kind of hate, my brothers and sisters. We are better than this. We are better than Steve King and what he says, and he won't do it.
LEMON: Just one more thing because I know you have to leave. You have an obligation. What do you think is worse? Because the extremes, people are always outraged by the extremes. We always talk about the extremes. We always condemn usually the extremes.
But in the moment when people do like part of our conversation last night when they overlook things, when they don't really interact with people of color in their everyday lives, they don't really -- they don't really live diversity. What do you think is worse? Do you think it's worse because we know there are fringes? We know that there are, you know, the Klan and on, and we know people openly call people the n-word.
But when it's not part of your daily life, is that even -- because you're sort of participating in something that is, you know, not cool either.
CUOMO: Well, look, ignorance is forgivable, right? Ignorance is blameful unless you're willfully ignorant. Arrogance is not, and that's what we're dealing with here, somebody who knows better.
LEMON: Well, I'm just talking about -- I'm just talking about the people we know, or people just the average, everyday person.
CUOMO: I don't know people like that because you know I came from Queens. I came from a melting pot place where --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That is true.
CUOMO: And so did Trump, by the way.
LEMON: That is true.
CUOMO: You know, so the idea that you don't know what's right and what's wrong and how to treat people and about who looks like you versus who is like you, you know, you learn those things where I come from. You learn that in my family. You know, that's what we're about.
LEMON: I just find a lot of people -- and some of them we know -- they talk the talk, but they don't necessarily walk the walk, right?
CUOMO: That's nothing new. Hypocrisy is everywhere.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: What I want to know is this. When somebody steps up to D. Lemon and puts their hands on you and does the wrong thing and I put them where they need to be, and I get arrested --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: What are you saying?
CUOMO: -- do you bail me out, or do you call my wife and say, you need to bail him out? What happens?
LEMON: No. I think before -- Christine and I will go for a drink. We'll hang out for a little bit --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I'm feeling the wall it doesn't come out from --
LEMON: -- and we'll say let him stew in his own juices for a little bit because.
CUOMO: That I am ex-black card come out or no?
LEMON: because -- you mean hers, the one with your name on it.
CUOMO: No, the numbers are off of that thing from overuse.
LEMON: No, I bail you out. But first of all, I would probably say don't do that. You have to -- I ignore people like that. I don't give it any energy. You get all upset about things like that.
CUOMO: There's a line.
LEMON: I don't.
CUOMO: There's a line.
LEMON: I prefer to use my words as we do every single night here, and that's how we work things out.
CUOMO: That's why we get along so well.
LEMON: Go do your thing -- well. Go do your thing.
CUOMO: Mostly fear on your side, but mine is love.
LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: See you later, bud.
LEMON: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
And, man, Rudy Giuliani out-Giulianied himself tonight. Did you hear him say this to Chris?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign. I have no idea of that.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Yes, you have.
GIULIANI: I have not. I said the president of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:04:55] LEMON: And he's got, let's call it, a unique explanation for Paul Manafort, the Trump campaign chairman sharing polling data to Konstantin Kilimnik during the campaign. Polling data is given to everybody. It's not accurate anyway.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: Polling data is given to everybody. He shouldn't have given it to them. It's wrong to give it to them.
CUOMO: It's not given to everybody.
GIULIANI: And I can't speak for Paul Manafort. Of course, it is. First of all, the most inappropriate, the most inaccurate stuff is internal polling data. All of it is cooked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Quite a performance, right? But make no mistake, there is a method to this madness. The president's attorney, as he always does, laying out the ground work there for what is to come. So, so stay tuned to that.
And I want to talk about something that's really serious tonight. There's just no other way to say it. This is a government and a world in turmoil. Some people may say it's crazy. Some people may say chaos, but I think turmoil is a good term.
So many of things that we thought were under control, the institutions we thought we could all depend on are on shaky ground right now. Really, think about it. And here's the part that should really, really worry you. An awful lot of this plays right into the hands of Vladimir Putin, pulling the strings. The devastating news out of Syria today, four Americans killed in a
brutal attack in the country's north. The horror captured in a video. I warn you, it is graphic, OK. ISIS claiming -- look at that, claiming responsibility. Yes, ISIS. The enemy the president said last month was defeated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have won against ISIS. We've beaten them, and we've beaten them badly. We've taken back the land, and now it's time for our troops to come back home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: He said it again just a few days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Knocking the hell out of ISIS, and we're bringing our folks back home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And that was after, after military commanders warned him during his surprise Christmas visit to Iraq that ISIS was not defeated. One of the president's top allies, Senator Lindsey Graham, saying the Syria withdrawal emboldens ISIS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: My concern by the statements made by President Trump is that you would set in motion enthusiasm by the enemy we're fighting. You make people we're trying to help wonder about us. And as they get bolder, the people we're trying to help are going to get more uncertain. I saw this in Iraq, and I'm now seeing it in Syria.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Following today's attack, two U.S. officials told CNN that there are no current plans to reverse the president's decision to begin withdrawing troops from Syria. And who is all of this good for? Who does it benefit? Who benefits from the power vacuum in Syria? Putin. Listen to what he said the day after President Trump announced the troop withdrawal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): As far as ISIS is concerned, I agree more or less with the president of the U.S.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Vladimir Putin's aim is to disrupt here and throughout the west. In a 2017 report, the U.S. intelligence community cites what they call Moscow's long-standing desire to undermine the U.S.-led liberal Democratic order, to undermine, to disrupt, to divide us, a world in turmoil.
And here's the latest example of turmoil in our government. Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi flexing her muscles today, urging this president to postpone the state of the union. That hasn't happened since the challenger disaster more than three decades ago, the speaker putting the blame squarely on the shutdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY PELOSI, UNITED STATES SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This requires hundreds of people working on the logistics and the security of it. Most of those people are either furloughed or victims of the president's shutdown. But that isn't the point is. The point is security.
This is a housekeeping matter in the Congress of the United States so that we can honor the responsibility of the invitation we extended to the president. He can make it from the Oval Office if he wants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, I mean, but honestly, just think about it. What does he say? The state of our union is shut down? What do you say in the state of the union? It is. It's shut down.
The fact is even though Nancy Pelosi framed this as a request to the president, it's really not a request to the president. Here's the way this works, all right? The House and the Senate both have to pass resolutions to green light the state of the union.
Nancy Pelosi controls whether the House passes one. She holds all the cards here. And why is all this happening? It's all because of the government shutdown, 26 days and counting.
[22:10:07] Eight hundred thousand people not getting paychecks. Remember, that has a ripple effect throughout the economy. Eight hundred thousand people who need to pay their rent, to feed their families.
The president, the man whose vote is expected to be the deal maker in chief, refusing to make a deal. He signed a bill today that ensures federal workers will be paid eventually -- eventually. That's got to be small comfort with no end in sight to this shutdown.
And contractors, some two million of them can't count on getting paid at all for their lost time, at all. Imagine you're working. You worked for a couple weeks, maybe even months. Who knows how long it's going to be, and you don't get paid for it. You're never going to get paid for it.
Many of those contractors, and many of them are small business owners, and that's taking a toll, as I said, on the entire economy.
The White House acknowledging the shutdown is hitting much harder than they previously estimated. And, remember, the economy is the force field around of the Trump presidency, the thing that keeps him afloat, the thing this president relies on to distract from everything that has gone wrong in this administration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Do you impeach somebody because he created the greatest economic success in the history of our country? Let's impeach him because the country is so successful. Let's impeach him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, he's painfully -- also painfully aware that he promised the base the wall, and it doesn't look like he can have it all. He can't have it both ways. He can't end the shutdown if he refuses to budge on the wall.
And every day this shutdown continues is another day of damage to the economy, the force field around this presidency, another day of crisis, a crisis of the president's own making, one that threatens his presidency and this country's stability.
And it is part of the turmoil across the west. Just look at the U.K., where Brexit threatens to leave the economy in chaos. Vladimir Putin is getting exactly what he wants. He attacked our democracy by interfering in our election. The entire intelligence community says there's no doubt of that.
Yet, we learned today that this president, the day after two meetings with Putin in Hamburg, told a New York Times reporter that Russia was being falsely accused, falsely accused, President Trump defending the man sowing discord in democracies all over the world. The question is why?
Lots to talk about. Susan Glasser is here, Max Boot as well. We're going to dig into it next.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Our breaking news tonight comes from the president's attorney, Rudy Giuliani, telling Chris tonight that President Trump did not collude with Russia, but he doesn't know if the other people in the Trump campaign did. Interesting, right?
Let's bring in Susan Glasser and Max Boot, the author of "The Corrosion of Conservatism: Why I Left the Right." Good evening to both of you.
I just want to play what the president's attorney said about collusion again. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign.
CUOMO: Yes, you have.
GIULIANI: I have no idea if -- I have not. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, we've seen Rudy Giuliani, Max, get out there, say some things that seem outlandish or like mistakes. But then like he's laying the ground work for things to come. Now there's no -- now, did he say there's possibly collusion? What did you?
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right. I mean, I think we're about one or two days away, Don, from Rudy Giuliani saying that collusion with hostile foreign powers is what makes America great.
I mean, this is just stunning because when Giuliani makes these kinds of concessions -- and you've got to play that clip over and over again tonight because the president's lawyer is basically admitting that the president's campaign colluded with Russia to affect the outcome of the American election.
LEMON: All right. Say that again. The president's lawyer --
(CROSSTALK)
BOOT: The president's lawyer is basically admitting that the president's campaign worked with a hostile foreign power to affect the outcome of the American election.
LEMON: Why do you say that?
BOOT: Well, that's what he's saying. He's saying -- Rudy Giuliani is saying, I'm not denying that there was collusion. I'm just saying it didn't involve the president personally. I'm just saying the president didn't personally break the law.
So, this is moving the goalpost. This is establishing a new defensive perimeter, and he's basically saying we're going to give up everybody on the campaign up to Mueller. He's basically signaling that he knows that there is very strong evidence of collusion, and he is trying to get out ahead of that evidence.
And, you know, we may say, well, what else is new? But let me just underline how staggering it is to have a president's campaign having worked with a foreign power to affect an election. This has really never happened before in American history. What Giuliani is so cavalierly admitting to Chris Cuomo tonight.
LEMON: Susan, do you agree with that?
SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: There's no question this is moving the goal post. I would say a couple things. Number one, the president's defense, as far as I can glean it from his lawyer here, seems to be basically, I had nothing to do with my own campaign.
It reminds me of the way in which he often has nothing to do with his own foreign policy. What you hear from the president's advisers is very different from what you hear from the president, and now what you hear from the president's lawyer is essentially something -- it's an enhanced version of what we've been hearing for a long time, which is Paul Manafort who? You know, no, he wasn't running my campaign.
And I think you're going to hear a lot more of that. The evidence that we have now, Max listed it out very damningly and compellingly in his post column the other day, is far more evidence of what, remember, in the Trump tower meeting leading up to it, the e-mail to Don Junior referred to the Russian government support for President Trump's campaign. What was that support? That's the question I would like to ask Mr. Giuliani tonight.
LEMON: I want to get your reaction. Max, your reaction, starting with you first. The New York Times reporting, they're referencing the 2017 G20 meeting in Hamburg where Putin and Trump met. All right?
[22:20:04] And as reported, Trump confiscated the interpreter's notes, and then they write, "The day after the two meetings as Mr. Trump was on Air Force One, taking off from Germany heading back to Washington, he telephoned a Times reporter and argued that the Russians were falsely accused of election interference. While he insisted most of the conversation be off the record, he later repeated a few things in public in little-noticed asides."
Have you heard a U.S. president argue a point like that on behalf of a foreign adversary before?
BOOT: No, of course not, and this is part of a pattern with Trump of seeming to represent Russian interests rather than American interests. I mean, there is so much which has actually come out in the last few days on that Hamburg meeting, including the fact there were these private discussions between Trump and Putin, and afterwards Trump came out with his cover story claiming that the meeting which had happened in 2016 in Trump tower with the Russian lawyer was about, quote, unquote, "adoptions."
And he admitted he talked about quote, unquote, "adoptions" with Putin himself, which suggests that perhaps they might have cooked up this story together. There was even a video clip that came out online today showing Trump at this dinner table with Putin making this power type signal at Putin.
I mean, this whole thing is just crazy and it just adds to this mountain of evidence that Putin has some kind of hold over Donald Trump. This is not on the level.
LEMON: Yes. I want to read a bit more of the reporting, Susan, and I want you to respond. It's a guy that you know well who is a pretty good reporter here. And here's what he says. He said that "he raised the election hacking three times and that Mr. Putin denied involvement. But he said Mr. Putin also told him that if we did, we wouldn't have gotten caught because we're professionals, Mr. Putin said. I thought that was a good point because they are some of the best in the world at hacking."
OK. So, we know President Trump repeated this talking point within the White House and at the times -- and at the time, this is according to Anthony Scaramucci, right? Do we think the president still believes this? GLASSER: Look, he said this publicly at the Helsinki press
conference, standing right alongside Vladimir Putin. One other point to consider from whatever the conversation was between those two, between Putin and Trump at the Hamburg meeting -- and, again, it is extraordinary and without precedent that the president of the United States has gone to these great lengths to conceal the nature and substance of his communications in his five separate meetings with Vladimir Putin.
This is not something that any other president ever of any party would ever do, period, full stop. Also consider that on that same plane ride when he was phone-calling a New York Times reporter was also when he was personally dictating the statement in which there was the false cover story produced about what the Trump tower meeting was about, which also repeated this claim about adoptions as being the substance of the Trump tower meeting.
That issue, the president's dictating of that statement, is something that we know to be under investigation by the Mueller team, and it directly connects the president of the United States to covering up what actually was the substance of the meeting and the reason for the Trump tower meeting.
So, this isn't something that you can dismiss as aides. This isn't something that you can dismiss as, you know, people acting without any knowledge of President Trump.
Why was he personally dictating that statement? Why was he misleading the American people? We have not been given answers about it, and I think it's extraordinary that all these things are occurring within hours of his private and unrecorded conversation with Vladimir Putin.
LEMON: All right. That's all we have time for. I got to run, but I would encourage everyone to read your latest piece in the Washington Post, max. It's called the GOP has become the drunken and frat boy party and it sees no reason to sober up. We'll continue this conversation. Thank you both. I appreciate your time.
Has the president met his match in Speaker Pelosi, the former congresswoman? Mia Love weighs in next. There she is. We'll see her after the break.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The president says to his aides, we are getting crushed by the shutdown. That's according to the New York Times tonight. Frustrated about why he can't get a deal, why he can't get a deal everyone flat out told him that he couldn't get after he reneged on previous agreements. Why he can't get a deal that he couldn't get even when Republicans controlled both the -- both Houses of Congress. Let alone now that Nancy Pelosi is the speaker and she's in charge.
Joining me now is former Republican Congresswoman and CNN political commentator Mia Love. Thank you for joining us this evening, Mia. I'm so glad to have you on.
MIA LOVE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.
LEMON: So, let's talk about this.
LOVE: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Speaker Pelosi do suggest that the president delay his state of the union address until the shutdown has been resolved, citing security concerns.
This is a power move, and it's something that the president has not dealt with yet in his presidency.
LOVE: Well, you said something that was really important that everyone has to remember. She holds the cards in the House of Representatives. I mean, that House -- she essentially controls the House, so, really, I can't stand the fact that they're putting ought of the decision-making in the hands of administration where Congress really controls -- has the cards there. They have all of the cards.
LEMON: Yes. And so, he's not used to it. Do you think that's affecting his judgment, his decision-making ability, clouding him -- clouding them maybe?
LOVE: I can't get into the mind of the president, you know. But I can tell you this. This is something that is incredibly frustrating to the American people watching this what I call ping pong politics, where there's this power play.
If Congress really wanted to do something, they can essentially bring up a vote every 48 hours if they want to, to open up government. They need a super majority. If they can get a super majority, they don't have to wait for the president to either sign something into law or veto it.
LEMON: OK. Then let's talk about that.
LOVE: Yes.
LEMON: What are your former colleagues saying? Do they like being in this position of shutting the government down over the wall?
LOVE: Well, I think what's most frustrating -- and I was actually still a member when this happened -- is having the meeting with Schumer and Speaker Pelosi, and he's saying, look, if you don't give me a wall, I will own the shutdown.
And every -- all of my colleagues were like, no, we don't want to own the shutdown. Nobody wants to own the shutdown. What are you doing? So, he lost a lot of his leverage by saying, I will own the shutdown.
And so, of course, Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi is like, great, you take it. Deal. We don't have to give you a border, and you can own the shutdown. So now you can see this power play between House leadership, and I don't know where the Senate is in all of this. I've heard nothing from the Senate. [22:30:07] But it's really a power play between House leadership and
the president of the United States, and of course, Chuck Schumer, but I haven't seen -- I would like to see a little bit more of Mitch McConnell speaking to Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and Leader McCarthy so that they can come up with a way to open up government and having border security that makes sense.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yeah. Listen, we discussed this a little bit the other night. And I want to talk to you about it more, get your thoughts on your former colleague, Steve King, the fallout over these comments that he made in an interview with The New York Times. The controversy just keeps growing.
Monday, the President said that he hadn't heard anything about King's comments. Here's Sarah Sanders earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you support the condemnation of Steve King, Sarah? Did he support that by the House?
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Steve King's comments were abhorrent. And the Republican leadership, unlike Democrats, have actually taken action when their members have said outrageous and inappropriate things. I hope that Democrat leadership will follow the very strong and rightful leadership that the Republicans have done over this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I would view that as a dodge, but I just want to get your response to the White House -- their response.
LOVE: Look, if -- I think everyone, Republicans, Democrats, especially the White House, they should be leading on this. I mean it's one of the frustrations that I think a lot of people have with the Republican Party, that I felt like I have had when we're not sticking up for minority communities. We love all Americans. We want to make sure that the policies work for everyone. We love all families, and the policies should work for everyone.
And so, to see members not stick up or to see any American not stick up for minority communities and actually go after someone who says these things, I think is a -- would be inappropriate. So, I am glad that they stripped him of his committees, especially when it comes to the fact that he would have been voting on voter fraud or voter rights or immigration reform, anything that is coming up in judiciary, in Ag, he shouldn't speak for the Republican Party.
LEMON: I think you're making a very important point, but the White House saying -- if they had just said what you said before that, you know, America is about all people -- I am just paraphrasing what you said -- and then left off the whataboutism, well, the Democrats -- shouldn't the White House have taken responsibility and said, listen, what he said is horrible. There's no room for it in our society, and just move on. LOVE: I think it's the right thing to say. I think it's the right thing to do. But as we know, the administration says whatever they want to. And I think, again, at least what people want to feel is that you're on their side.
LEMON: Right.
LOVE: And I think that that's -- everyone needs to do a better job at that.
LEMON: Yeah. Mia, thank you. I appreciate your time.
LOVE: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. The President's shutdown is doing a lot more damage to the economy than the government predicted, actually. Will he have to choose between his beloved wall and a strong economy?
[22:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK, everyone. Pay attention. I want you to take a look at this, though. Look at your screen. This is from The New York Times. It's a headline. The shutdown is threatening to end any growth in our economy. That's huge, threatening to end any growth in our economy. Can we put that back up? Sorry. Let's put that back up. I think that's important. Look at that.
OK, probably not the news the President wants to hear because you know how much Trump loves to talk about the economy under his presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're doing record business, record stock market, record everything.
We're doing well, right? We're all doing well. The 401K is doing well. The stocks are doing well.
I have created such an incredible economy. I have created so many jobs. I have made this country, with you, so great.
Since I took office, the value of Americans' mutual funds and pension funds has increased by $2.7 trillion. That's your money. That's your money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So he is mighty proud of the growth in the economy during his time as President. But the current government shutdown has put that in danger, quite frankly. Today, a White House economic adviser said that the damage to the economy from the shutdown is worse than predicted.
Delta Airlines says the shutdown has taken a $25 million chunk out of revenues. The National Association of Realtors survey found that 25 percent of realtors said the government shutdown had dissuaded their clients from buying homes.
And even the way the government measures the economy is being harmed. The Commerce Department hasn't issued any new reports since the shutdown began. Simply put, the shutdown is having an effect on the economy that the President has championed.
And remember, the President has the shutdown -- has shut down the government over funding for his wall, a wall he really, really wants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's going to be a beautiful, gorgeous, big wall that they're going to name Trump someday. That's why I am going to make it.
We need security. We need the wall. We're going to have it all.
It's not build that wall anymore, it's continue building that wall.
The barrier, the wall, or steel slats, whatever you want to call it, it's all the same.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Really, really beautiful big wall with my name on it maybe one day. Only one person said that they would take the blame for the shutdown. Can I remind you who that is?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I am not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle of shutting down. And I am going to shut it down for border security.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:40:07] LEMON: It's like the cat that ate the canary. He's like ha-ha-ha-ha. Right now, 26 days into the shutdown, the economy is in danger, and there is no deal in sight to open the government, to open it back up or fund Trump's border wall. The economy, the wall, the shutdown, Trump wants to own them all. Can he? Let's discuss. Rob Astorino is here, Joan Walsh, Michael D'Antonio, the Author of The Truth About Trump.
Rob -- good evening, everybody. You hate hearing when he says, I will take responsibility.
ROB ASTORINO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Did you see Schumer at that?
LEMON: Did you hear Mia Love before? She said they were screaming, no, we don't want to take responsibility for it. It's unbelievable.
ASTORINO: He shouldn't have said that because that just -- I can hear in Schumer's mind and Pelosi's mind right at that second, I can't wait to go outside in this press conference.
LEMON: And they did.
ASTORINO: And they did. And look, we're at an impasse right now that's not going to be changed unless the dialogue is changed. And I think only the President can do that, right? And I am appealing to the President right now. Go big. Here's how he can change it because Pelosi is not going to give a dime. She's already said nothing for the wall, which is completely a contradiction to what the Democrats did just 11 months ago.
But aside from that, they're not going to budge. The President has to at this point say let's get to the table. Let's put DACA on the table. Let's talk about the entire immigration system, and let's get to work.
LEMON: OK. Didn't that happen already?
ASTORINO: No, no, no. Not in a serious way. He hasn't said it.
JOAN WALSH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It happened last year.
ASTORINO: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
LEMON: That's the whole thing. When you talk about 11 months ago, but that all happened.
WALSH: That happened, Ron.
(CROSSTALK)
ASTORINO: He said we're at a give point now.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Then there was another deal after that, and then he said --
WALSH: He said no.
ASTORINO: Eleven months ago, poison pills the Democrats put in that $25 billion bill. But it did show that they were willing. It wasn't immoral 11 months ago, that wall. It's only immoral now because the president boxed himself in.
LEMON: Anyway, I know people keep saying that. I don't think it was in the form that the president says. And no one is saying that there shouldn't be some sort -- there's already a structure.
WALSH: Right.
ASTORINO: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I don't think Democrats are saying -- there's already a structure at the border. ASTORINO: No, no. But they're using immoral. The wall is immoral now.
LEMON: That's the other thing.
ASTORINO: Jorge Ramos just wrote in The New York Times, you know, it's racist. It's immoral. It's always --
WALSH: There are places where the wall makes sense, and there are lots of --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. I want to talk about this because the president -- you know, he talks about the wall, which was his signature promise, right, Michael? But he could tell his supporters because they want to believe him. They're not going to not support him regardless, right? He can tell his supporters, listen, whatever he wants to say. I am not going to come up with any scenario. But the economy is the saving grace of this President, and he has to choose one over the other.
I think he is being a little bit naive because maybe, you know, with this shutdown, because that will be the thing that actually harms him more than the wall.
MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the shutdown is a terrible thing, and it's actually really hitting farm country in a big way. They're not able to plan for the spring plantings. There are all kinds of concern about exports. It's really disastrous for his base.
LEMON: Yeah.
D'ANTONIO: But, you know, I am not sure that the President prefers dealing with the economy. He likes this concept of a wall.
LEMON: You think he likes the fight?
D'ANTONIO: He likes the fight, but he's boxed himself in. This four- letter word, W-A-L-L, is a trap for him, and he doesn't know how to get out of it because he's promised it over and over again. Who's going to pay for it?
LEMON: It's Mexico.
D'ANTONIO: You know it's ridiculous. So every time this comes up, this video is going to be played, and he looks like a fool.
LEMON: If he has to choose, which one does he pick, the wall or the economy?
WALSH: I think the wall. I think he's going to find a way to blame the economy on Democrats, the shutdown -- we already know, even though we got that wonderful tape. He says the shutdown is on the Democrats. He says the buck stops everywhere. That's kind of my favorite Trump phrase from the whole time, the buck stops everywhere, not with him. So I think he's going to find a way to spin the economic troubles as Pelosi created. I don't think it's going to work. It will work for days (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You think economic troubles? Because here's what I think at election time, when it's actually time to go, you know, to the polls for the next election. If the economy is not doing well, the people who he will have his staunch supporters.
WALSH: Right. They're not going anywhere.
LEMON: But the people who voted for him because of economics, because they were getting a tax -- whatever and --
WALSH: Oh, I am not saying it's not disastrous for him.
LEMON: Don't you think that has more importance than the wall when it gets to that point?
WALSH: You know, I hate to say this, but no. And I don't think he can -- I don't think there's any in his circle at this point who can reach him with reality.
LEMON: Rob is trying.
WALSH: Rob is trying. He's talking to the TV.
LEMON: Rob, there's a new Marist poll that says 61 percent of people have a more negative feeling about the President because of the government shutdown. Is he -- I don't know.
[22:45:03] ASTORINO: Well, so two things, first of all, the economy. I think the little threat here that we have is temporary in nature. Because once the shutdown is over, that money is going to flood right back in. They're going to get their normal pay. They're going to get their back pay.
LEMON: Not everybody.
ASTORINO: Most people will. And I think most things will get back on track. But as far as the wall goes, that's why I said he's not going to change any minds right now because people think he's abstinent. They're not seeing that Pelosi and the Democrats are abstinent. That's why if he throws out something big, then I think the average person will say, you know what?
At least he is moving on this. He is trying to do something. And if the Democrats stay with their nothing, then that's when things can start to change.
LEMON: OK, listen. This is what I don't understand. This is what's frustrating me. If you reach and say, I want to buy a condo, the condo is going to cost $50,000 thousand, right? Then you go to the thing, oh, we're ready. Then you come back and say, you know what, no, I decided I want $70,000 for this condo. And you say wait a minute. We had a deal.
Why is it incumbent upon me -- the deal that was signed -- why is it -- you agreed upon this. Why is it incumbent upon the person who -- the people who had the deal and not the person who is moving the goal post to all of a sudden start negotiating?
ASTORINO: Because maybe they did the inspection on the house, you found something --
LEMON: Oh, that's -- yeah, that's -- be honest, come on.
(CROSSTALK)
ASTORINO: -- on that exchange and negotiation things --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Rob, be honest. Come on.
ASTORINO: Things always change.
WALSH: No, I think the problem is --
(CROSSTALK)
D'ANTONIO: -- change. When you sign a contract that's --
(CROSSTALK)
ASTORINO: No contract was signed.
WALSH: Right, but no contract was signed.
D'ANTONIO: Do you think the American public thinks, oh, no contract was signed? He had a deal with Mitch McConnell.
WALSH: He had a deal --
D'ANTONIO: Now, he's making Mitch McConnell look like a fool because now he can't move. McConnell can't exercise his prerogative, which is to bring legislation before the Senate. He is waiting for the President to tell him what to do.
LEMON: I got to run. Remember that song, where in the world is Mitch McConnell?
ASTORINO: Go big, Mr. President. Go big. Change the dialogue.
LEMON: You heard it. We'll be right back.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: More than half a dozen black employees at a GM plant say they are facing racist threats and intimidation at work. There are evidences laid out on a lawsuit with pictures of nooses, white's only signs, and the N word they say showed up inside the plant. While GM says it takes discrimination and intimidation seriously and is doing all it can to get rid of the problem.
A state law enforcement agency ruled it is not doing enough. CNN's Sarah Sidner has the story. And I have to warn you, OK? You will hear racial epithets and disturbing language in this story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARAH SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Everyday he walks into work, Marcus Boyd prayed he'd survive his shift unscathed.
MARCUS BOYD, FORMER GM SUPERVISOR: I feel like I was at war, risking my life everyday.
SIDNER: Derrick Brooks, a former marine, worked in the same place. Both were supervisors on different shifts at the General Motors transition plant Toledo, Ohio. Brooks considers himself tough from his military training, but he struggled to handle what was happening at work.
DERRICK BROOKS, FORMER GM SUPERVISOR: How rough can you be when you've got 11 or 12 people who want to put a noose around your neck and hang you till you're dead?
SIDNER: There's a reason he brings up nooses. It's not just a figure of speech.
BROOKS: This is the picture of the noose that I found the night that I was at work on my shift.
SIDNER: According to a lawsuit now pending against GM, this is one of at least five nooses discovered at their workplace in separate incidents. The suit also claims there were signs that blacks were not welcomed there. Whites only scrolled on a bathroom wall, along with swastikas on bathroom stalls and niggers not allowed scratched or written on bathroom walls.
BROOKS: This was saying you don't belong here. This was saying if you stay here, this is what could possibly happen to you.
SIDNER: In this struggling town, Brooks and Boyd did not want to leave their six figure jobs. Brooks has eight children. Boyd takes care of his mother who is an amputee. Now, they and seven others have sued GM for allowing an underlying atmosphere of violent racial hate and bullying. When did you notice overt racism?
BOYD: Well, when an employee that was under me, he told me that back in the day a person like me would have been buried with a shovel.
SIDNER: He said what to you?
BOYD: That was a death threat. And I was told to push that to the side.
SIDNER: Boyd says he reported the incident.
BOYD: He admitted to it. And I was pulled to the side and say, you know, if you want to build relationships here, you know, you just let things go. He'll be all right.
SIDNER: But he says the threats got worse. Were you afraid for your life?
BOYD: Definitely. That's why I left.
SIDNER: When the news appeared in March of 2017, Derek Brooks says he reported it to upper management. He was sure he was the intended target, but says he was told to investigate by questioning his employees.
BROOKS: It felt like a slap in the face, it did. But I had to be professional.
SIDNER: Brooks and other black employees also noticed being called Dan.
BROOKS: I thought they just mispronounced my name for Derrick. Then later, I find that Dan was an acronym for Dumb Ass Nigger.
SIDNER: General Motors sent us a statement, insisting discrimination and harassment are not acceptable and in stark contrast to how they expect people to show up at work. We treat any report of incident with sensitivity and urgency and are committed to providing an environment that is safe, open, and inclusive. And everyday every one at General Motors is expected to uphold the values that are an integral part of its culture.
But according to more than half dozen current and former black employees, the problem is the culture. They say inside this plant, racism and harassment are the norm, not the exception.
[22:55:04] BOYD: It is a culture.
BROOKS: You have this -- it is from the top down and the bottom up.
SIDNER: One employee filed a police report. Others filed complaints with the Ohio Civil Rights Commission prior to filing suit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ultimate decision that was made is that GM did allow a racially hostile environment.
SIDNER: They alleged -- they investigated quickly and have done for media to take care of the problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The commission disagrees with that position. GM did not do very much at all, or what they did do was not effective.
SIDNER: GM says that they held mandatory meetings and even closed the plant for a day for training, and to address the issue with every shift. The Civil Rights Commission report noted a former union president's testimony that during one of those meetings, a white supervisor said too big of a deal was being made of the nooses. After all, there was never a black person who was lynched that didn't deserve it. The lawsuit alleges that supervisor was never disciplined. BOYD: General Motors was supposed to stand for something, right? That's the great American company. What are you doing about this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: A GM representative that we spoke to says that they have not identified those who put up the nooses and therefore, no one has been fired for this incident. They said however, that some people have been dismissed in that Toledo plant during what it is calling its extensive anti-discrimination and anti-harassment work and that work continues today. But Don, guess what else continues?
LEMON: Yeah.
SIDNER: The racist threats. Just today, we received a picture from inside of the plant sent to an attorney that mentions hanging people. There have been other threats against those of who have spoken out, black workers there, threats directed directly at them. And they are now in fear and would not go on camera because they were in fear for speaking out again in case more threats came their way, as they're going through this process, Don.
LEMON: You told us Sarah what GM said. What about the union?
SIDNER: So we did speak to a UAW representative, and he said look. He had been there for 34 years. There could be somewhat he said bad actors that worked there. But he did not believe that there was widespread intentional racism. Now, he said something very interesting. He says do I believe that people are a little too sensitive in this day and age, yes.
But you can't say the same things you used to say 20 years ago that you can say now. That is the problem that these workers are talking about, being called sensitive when they are facing these really extreme racial epithets, really extreme behavior. And they are being told to suck it up and get along, Don.
LEMON: Sarah, thank you. Appreciate your report. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
