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Don Lemon Tonight

Giuliani Slips Again; Mueller to Show Up or to Shut Up. Aired 11p-12m ET

Aired January 16, 2019 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

We have breaking news and it's from President Trump's lawyer, as a matter of fact. Rudy Giuliani telling Chris Cuomo tonight that President Trump did not collude with Russia but he doesn't know if other people in the Trump campaign did, more on that coming up

And there is a really important question that we are going to dig deep on this hour. Will we, the American people, ever see Robert Mueller's report when he wraps up the Russia investigation? He'll submit one to the attorney general.

But William Barr who's expected to be confirmed as the next A.G., is only pledging to be as transparent as he can which is not an unequivocal, yes.

Also, tonight, growing questions about the relationship President Trump has with Vladimir Putin and whether Putin has the upper hand. In an extraordinary move a Kremlin official today address the question of President Trump working for Russia, calling it nonsense and stupid.

What we know since taking office two years ago, Trump has met with Putin on five occasions and often they meet privately. The New York Times reporting that Trump does not brief his aides on what was said and that after meeting with Putin in Germany, Trump took his interpreter's notes and instructed the interpreter not to say anything.

The Times is also reporting that while the president was returning home from that meeting, he called a reporter from Air Force One claiming Russia is being falsely accused of interfering in the 2016 election. We got lots to come with President Trump's relationship with Vladimir Putin tonight.

And we begin with the deadly attack that killed four Americans in Syria, ISIS claiming responsibility. That comes just weeks after President Trump decided to begin withdrawing troops. A move that's likely to create a power vacuum benefitting Putin.

Here is CNN's Alexander Marquardt.

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A blast rocking the city of Manbij, in northern Syria today. An explosion that killed four Americans and it was claimed by ISIS which said a suicide bomber had carried out the attack. The Americans were two service members, an intelligence officer and a civilian contractor, the Pentagon said.

The deaths coming just hours before the vice president claimed ISIS had been beaten.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The caliphate has crumbled and ISIS has been defeated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: That following this White House produced video of the president declaring victory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we have won against ISIS. We've beaten them and we beaten them badly. We've taken back the land. And now it's time for our troops to come back home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Critics are now slamming the Trump administration for the plan withdrawal of 2,000 U.S. troops from Syria. Arguing it will leave a vacuum that will be filled by Russia and Iran. Senator Lindsey Graham saying it will give strength to a weakened ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: My concern by the statements made by President Trump is that you would set in motion enthusiasm by the enemy we're fighting. You make people we're trying to help wonder about us.

[23:04:56] And as they get bolder, the people we're trying to help are going to get more uncertain. I saw this in Iraq, and I'm now seeing it in Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: This is as we learned President Trump had defended Russia on a phone call to New York Times last July saying Russia was being falsely accused of election interference. Then today, Russia returning that favor, a Kremlin official calling the allegation that President Trump worked for Moscow is stupid, then the foreign minister arguing that nothing that special counsel Robert Mueller has turned up so far shows collusion between Trump and Russia.

Almost identical to the language that the president often uses when casting himself as a victim of a witch hunt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It is a hitch wasn't and it's a disgrace.

I respect the move but the entire thing has been a witch hunt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Trump's nominee for attorney general William Barr defended the president's characterization but told senators in his confirmation hearing that not only should Mueller be allowed to finish his investigation but that Barr would make it as transparent as possible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: My goal will be to provide as much transparency as I can consistent with the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Leaving himself some wiggle room as to how exactly in his own report he would communicate the Mueller findings to Congress and the republic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: The A.G. has some flexibility and discretion in terms of the A.G.'s report. What I am saying is my objective and goal is to get as much as I can of the information to Congress and the public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Those two answers. Don, that he wants to provide transparency but also that what is revealed by Mueller is subject to Barr's own discretion is causing some concern among those on the judiciary committee. Senator Dianne Feinstein of California said today that her vote for Barr hinges on the Mueller report being made entirely public. This is a big report she said and the public needs to see it. Don?

LEMON: Alex, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Lots to talk about. Fareed Zakaria is here, the host of Fareed Zakaria GPS. Good evening, sir. First, before we get into all of this, I just want to get your reaction to the president's attorney Rudy Giuliani and what he told Chris about collusion. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: The collusion happened, it happened a long time ago. It's either provable or it's not -- it is not provable because it never happened.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: What do you mean? I thought you said there is absolutely no chance it happened.

GIULIANI: I'm telling you there is no chance it happened.

CUOMO: How do you explain Manafort? But it's his campaign Rudy. Doesn't it matter? (CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: I have no idea and never have what other people were doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So, seriously, you heard that, right? If the collusion happened, it happened a long time ago. That's not what he said before.

(CROSSTALK)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Which is also not true. It happened a few years ago.

LEMON: Right. And he says he doesn't know what other people were doing. That's stunning.

ZAKARIA: So, all I would say is I would not want Rudy Giuliani to be my lawyer. Because he says, first he says it didn't happen and if it did, it happened a long time ago. We are talking about two and a half years sago not so long ago, three years ago, maybe.

Then he says it's not -- I didn't say it was not collusion between the president. I just said the president was not colluding. His campaign might have been colluded. But the president is that the CEO of his campaign. So, it would be like saying the CEO is not guilty this was happening within the company. None of it makes any sense.

So, either Giuliani had a very bad day or the Trump's defense is really crumbling.

LEMON: Is he laying the ground work or something do you think?

ZAKARIA: I mean, my own sense is that as I said I don't know why Donald Trump has Rudy Giuliani as his public voice on this. He did not seem to have a particularly good day. He has not had many good days in this situation when you push back. It seems like he made a mistake to me, to my mind and then he tried to cover it up.

LEMON: Yes. So, as we have been reporting here, you know, I use the word turmoil, right? Our government is shutdown. There is a Brexit chaos. There is a yellow vest protests that are happening across France. The U.S. is pulling out of Syria. Putin is winning.

ZAKARIA: Well, Putin is winning in the sense that if you say every -- you know, any time there is disorder or chaos in the western democracy, it's good for Putin because Putin thrives on that kind of disorder and he thrives on the idea that the western democracies are doing badly. Yes.

But I don't think that it's -- I'm not that pessimistic. The way I would put it is first of all, you are in a very different world right now in the United States. In the United States for the first time the seemingly unstoppable force of Donald Trump has met an immovable object in Nancy Pelosi and in the House Democrats. [23:09:53] I think you are going to see a very different world going forward. I think that not just what Nancy Pelosi is doing very shrewdly but what House Democrats and House -- the chairman of committees are going to do.

Remember, they will have information that they have never have before. So far, all information, committee chairman both in the House and the Senate were Republicans who slavishly doing Donald Trump's bidding.

Now you have a situation where committee chairman in the House will have information, access to information. That information might find its way to the New York Times and the Washington Post. That will then provide fodder for the 17, count them, legal investigations that are going on directed at President Trump, his family and his associates, Trump organization.

So, it feels like there is a lot more pressure here and the big picture is that it seems to me the constitutional framework of American government is working. For the last two years it really hasn't worked because the Republican Party chose to put party over that constitutional role that Congress has always had to in some way check the executive branch. That's happening.

In Brexit, which is seen happened is what the Brits are realizing is there is no way to do a Brexit without an unbearable high cost to doing it.

LEMON: Economically that --

(CROSSTALK)

ZAKARIA: And they -- so every time they get to the brink they gasp and they are going to another round of turmoil. We'll see what happens in France. Because in France, it is a similar thing. You know, every -- the cheap populist rhetoric is easy. But when you actually have to govern, it turns out there are no answers, you know. Either the answers are symbolic nonsense like the wall or they are actively bad, you know, like tariffs --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Don't you think we are finding out the same thing?

ZAKARIA: Exactly. Exactly.

LEMON: The same thing.

ZAKARIA: So, I think that what we are witnessing is that it's a painful process but what we are finding out is that all these populist remedies are either symbolic or they're actively bad in any event they're not going to help anyone, you know. So, at some point you have to hope that so many of the people who have been a good faith put their hopes in Donald Trump are going to realize none of this is doing anything for them.

LEMON: Yes. I know you are fighting the cold. I had it a couple of weeks ago.

ZAKARIA: You give me some good tips on it.

LEMON: Yes. The cough drops in the tea. It helps. It helps. I think you were coming and even though you're under the weather. I appreciate it, Fareed Zakaria. Don't miss Fareed Zakaria GPS Sunday at 10 a.m. and 1 p.m. Eastern.

You heard Rudy Giuliani tonight saying Donald Trump didn't collude with Russia. But he can't say if Trump campaign aides did. I'm going to ask John Dean what he thinks of that. There he is. That's next.

[23:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news and it comes from President Trump's attorney. Rudy Giuliani telling CNN tonight that President Trump did not collude with Russia but he doesn't know if other people in the Trump campaign did.

I'm going to talk about this with John Dean, who is White House counsel from President Nixon. good evening, sir. So, he's speaking, his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, speaking to Chris tonight, earlier tonight, and he says something very surprising. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign.

CUOMO: Yes, you have.

GIULIANI: I have no idea if -- I have not. I said the president of the United States, there is not a single bit of evidence that the president of the United States committed the only crime you could commit here conspired with the Russians to hack the DNC.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: We're all Chris with that face of what? Look, John, is this another example of the president's attorney seemingly going off script but really laying the groundwork for what's to come and opening up the possibility of collusion somewhere.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't think so. I watched the entire 22 minutes of Chris asking questions and Rudy throwing brick back at him and trying to insult everybody --

LEMON: Yes.

DEAN: -- and Chris pushing a little bit further. And I just think they squared it out at one point and he tried to cover for a slip and he was stuck with it. And it's a headline because it's an admission against interest. And so, he's not very good at lawyering for his client on television. He's not very good as a P.R. guy on television.

LEMON: So, I just want to read this. This is from the Washington Post, this was in September of 2018, right. Remember what he said to Chris there.

DEAN: Right.

LEMON: This is from Giuliani. Giuliani said he also thinks that "Manafort has no evidence to suggest that Trump campaign colluded with Russians. We've talked to their side, Giuliani said, the statement is, there is nothing that is adverse to the president, the Trump family, the Trump's campaign."

That's exactly opposite of what he said. He mentions the campaign here and when he was asked by George Stephanopoulos about any cooperation between people associated with Trump and the Russians, he said the collusion would come up empty.

So, what do you think of all this after what we heard tonight?

DEAN: Well, you know, he also in that interview with Chris tried to disown virtually knowing Manafort, he said, first only, he was there only six months, then he got it down to four months and he kind of wiggle around.

It's their same old defense. And with Rudy one of the other things that slip out in that interview that I found very interesting. He virtually admitted he didn't know anything but what he read in the newspapers.

I don't think he talks to his client. He's pro bono. He's getting attention in mileage in clients may be out of being there representing the president. But this is -- you know, I don't -- I can't really take him for factual based statement just for what you read now. It's just so, he's all over a lot.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Can you say that again, please. That's my issue. He just spreads propaganda when he comes on. And sometimes it's very effective. You know, he starts to argue and he becomes combative. There is no evidence and he start speaking all these things that are not true. It may be effective in the Trump's circle. Right? But it --

[23:20:01] DEAN: Right.

LEMON: I don't know if -- maybe it's working, who knows.

DEAN: Well, the first eight minutes, he argued about a footnote in the FISA filing and over the texts of the Strzok-Page communications. It was just a bizarre stuff. He was off on a tangent sort of deflecting Chris from the line of inquiry he's trying to undertake.

LEMON: OK. Isn't Mueller exploring other crimes not just the conspiring with Russians to hack the DNC. He's looking at many other avenues.

DEAN: It's clear from his charter that he is entitled to look at any crimes he ran across or suspects in the course of his investigation. Contrary to what Rudy said tonight, obstruction of justice is within his charter. It's actually what started the investigation.

And the obstruction that they are looking at since we know so much more, there is a lot of good commentary out of the fact the obstruction could be the very firing of Mueller -- excuse me, the firing of Comey because it interfered with the investigation of counterintelligence. That's a very different thing in a court proceeding, much broader and very viable.

LEMON: Yes. More of the interview, this is where he talks about chairing a polling data from Manafort with a Russian associate. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: Polling data is given to everybody, mean, he shouldn't have given it to them. It's wrong to give it to them.

CUOMO: It's not given to everybody.

GIULIANI: And I can't speak for Paul Manafort. Of course, it is. First of all, the most inappropriate, the most inaccurate stuff is internal polling data. All of it is cooked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK, again, that misinformation. Polling data given to Russians? When does that happen?

DEAN: Well, he's trying to -- you know, he knows what makes a conspiracy and two people agreeing to pass information about as conspiratorial as you can get. Now the information may be good, it may be bad. It doesn't make any difference. It shows an agreement to aide and conspire is a more legal word for collusion.

LEMON: Internal polling data he says is cooked. What kind of excuses is that, John?

DEAN: That's no excuse at all. And it could have been very valuable cooked information for the Russians to set up a social media campaign knowing what was of interest through Manafort to the campaign.

LEMON: John Dean, thank you.

DEAN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Rudy Giuliani is calling on Robert Mueller to release his report tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: Show us what you got, put up or shut up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: But the big question is will we ever see Mueller's report?

[23:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, Rudy Giuliani says Robert Mueller should, in his words, put up or shut up. And he's got a lot more to say tonight about Mueller's investigation.

Let's discuss. Douglas Brinkley is here. Jennifer Rodgers, and Ryan Lizza. What should we talk about everyone? Good evening. Ryan, I am going to start with you. So, I'm going to play this clip the president's attorney, Rudy Giuliani just a short time ago with Chris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: Don't you think it'd be fair whether you think he's concluded or not, that Mueller finally be ask show us what you got, put up or shut up. You and -- you and your witch hunt guys --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: But he's never denied us that access. It concludes, he puts out the report and then we get it and see what it has. I've always seen this --

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: Well, let's get them now.

CUOMO: I've always seen this is a false argument the idea of he's not showing us what he has. It's not over.

GIULIANI: Well, let's do it. Well, let's do it.

CUOMO: But he's got to finish.

GIULIANI: Isn't it over enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Over enough. What does that even mean?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, the whole strategy from Rudy Giuliani since day one is to cloud these issues to rally Trump's supporters and --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And that's what we are talking about. The craziness of what he says, right? Instead of --

(CROSSTALK)

LIZZA: And to preemptively fight off impeachment.

LEMON: Right.

LIZZA: Because Giuliani once he learned that Mueller would abide by Justice Department guidelines, and he apparently believes that he cannot indict a sitting president, Giuliani has understood since day one that it's a purely political fight and that the only venue that it is important is Congress and potential impeachment and that has -- that's what he's had his eye on since day one.

LEMON: Yes. Jennifer, let's talk -- let's talk about this a little bit. Because while it was playing, I asked you this, what was he, states attorney? Right?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The U.S. attorney.

LEMON: The U.S. attorney.

RODGERS: Right.

LEMON: So, he was U.S. attorney. Would he have taken the advice -- let's put it this way, would younger Rudy Giuliani take the advice of older Rudy Giuliani just gave and said, it's time and you should give the information --

RODGERS: Yes,

LEMON: -- the potential targets in all of this?

RODGERS: I think you would get the tongue lashing from the U.S. attorney Rudy Giuliani, had someone suggested to him that it was time for him to show his cards and end his investigation prematurely. There's no way.

LEMON: Yes. So, why? Do you agree with Ryan that this is just his sort of get us spinning or --

(CROSSTALK)

RODGERS: Well, I think he knows --

LEMON: -- to get people head off of impeachment.

RODGERS: I think he knows that the end is coming that Mueller is starting to wrap up. There are a couple of areas still left to do. But most of the things have started to resolve. So, he knows a report is coming and information is going to get out and there is going to be evidence of collusion between the campaign and the Russians.

And he's trying to get in front of that by saying, OK, maybe that's there and we don't know but it's not my guy, which is what they have to back to when they realize that there is evidence coming out. So, I think that's what's happening.

LEMON: It's a brilliant strategy, don't you think? So, we get information, you know, like the report Manafort comes out, right? And then all of a sudden Rudy Giuliani comes on and he gets this whole like, more chaos -- it's a brilliant strategy because it's almost like clockward, don't you think?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: They do it all the time. And it's a whole like strange rope-a-dope act that he does. Some people might think that Rudy Giuliani lost it. It is a question, why does he want to hit his historical reputation to Donald Trump.

[23:24:58] I think that's a legitimate. I think Giuliani is going to be punished in history for being misaligned with Trump. But the strategy is, oh, yeah, of course, the campaign may did a little collusion, that's not the president. That's where their new defense is. That's moving the, you know, the goal in a very different way now.

So basically Giuliani asked, in my view, saying yes, there is collusion in the Trump campaign but not the boss man. Mueller is getting close to them and this is an act of desperation.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Rudy Giuliani is the public opinion person, right? Because in the court of law, that's a whole different thing, the whole legal aspect. He's the public opinion guy because impeachment, you know, relies on that, more in public opinion than anything.

This is what he says. I am going to let you respond, Ryan. He talks about -- what is it? About making it public, making the thing public. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The idea of transparency. Everybody should be on the same page.

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Yes.

CUOMO: Whatever does not compromise national security, that should be a very tight definition, should be made public. All the findings that the people can see from Mueller. Do you agree?

GIULIANI: I agree.

CUOMO: You have been quoted as saying you should get to go through it first. Is that a fair assessment of your --

GIULIANI: Of course, I should. I should be allowed to respond.

CUOMO: Should you be able to change the report?

GIULIANI: But also I have been misquoted about it also.

CUOMO: How so?

GIULIANI: Because I don't want to change the report.

CUOMO: OK.

GIULIANI: I want to respond to the report. You want to respond to the report. What about you? And don't you think it's fair that we get an opportunity to do that?

CUOMO: Absolutely.

GIULIANI: I have no control over what Mueller is going to say. Let him say whatever he wants. I have no control over what's national security, what isn't. The government got to decide that. As his lawyer, I honestly like to see the whole report.

CUOMO: Me too.

GIULIANI: I think Jay and I can knock the hell out of him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: OK. So, is that how it works, Ryan? Before the report comes out. Can you imagine going to court, or you say, before this police report and all this comes out, I need to respond to it. Go on.

RYAN LIZZA, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, ESQUIRE MAGAZINE: Well, three things. One, I just want to say, to wrap up the last conversation, it is important to note that several Trump's spokespeople during the campaign and his presidency have said that there was no collusion whatsoever by anyone in the campaign, right?

So you can go back and see people on record like Hope Hicks and Spicer and Kellyanne Conway saying unequivocally that there was no collusion. So that's just putting an exclamation point on how they are moving the goal post (ph).

And two other things on what Giuliani just said. One, very interesting that he is saying the whole report should be public, right? That goes further than the attorney general nominee has said over the last couple of days, right? And then this idea that they should respond to it, well, of course, they can respond to it. If it is going to be a public report, they can say anything they want.

When it comes out and all the reporting is that Mueller has been trying to interview Trump in person, has been trying to get more information, that's the part of the process if the president wants to respond to what this prosecutor has that they should be engaging in, not after the fact.

It's a little disingenuous to say, oh, we want to respond to it before you make it public if you're not cooperating with the special counsel in the run up to the report.

LEMON: Yeah. He mentioned the attorney general nominee, William Barr, Douglas. He talked a lot about transparency. Do you think they were ever going to see Mueller's report of just an edited version from the A.G.?

BRINKLEY: I think the report will get out one way or another. We want it to be released so the whole public gets the chance to read it. We are hoping that -- if the Trump White House got it, it will just filled with redactions. So one way or another, I think the report has to come out.

Look, when we do a 9/11 commission report or you're doing something on the challenge (ph), you want full information open to the public. We need other transparency. The report belongs to the American people. We pay the bill for this. This has gone on for a big investigation. We must know what happened in our elections and whether Putin had infiltrated.

LEMON: We will get more from Jennifer on the other side. Last to talk about, the Senate voting to lift sanctions on Putin -- on a Putin ally today. But with all of the questions still swirling, why lift sanctions now?

[23:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: An attempt by Democrats to keep sanctions on three Russian companies with ties to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska failed in the Senate today. Sixty votes are required but the Dems came up three votes short.

Back now with Douglas Brinkley, Jennifer Rodgers and Ryan Lizza. Jennifer, you know, the companies at the heart of this have restructured their ownership to minimize Oleg Deripaska's involvement. But according to documents provided to Congress, his shares have been distributed among his family, a foundation that he started in a Kremlin-linked bank. So, has anything really changed?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It shouldn't make a difference, right? I mean, the point of sanctions was to punish this oligarch who is very close to the Kremlin for the Russian interference. So, you know, playing around with the ownership and moving things to a foundation and to his family really shouldn't matter the point.

This is not a legal proceeding in court where they are seizing assets or finding someone criminally liable. This is just sanctions and this is, you know, even further away from that now, emotion on sanctions in Congress, so we don't need to meet those same standards.

It really shouldn't matter to anything. It's just amazing that, you know, there weren't more Republicans willing to say, hey, Russia is not our friends, they are an enemy, and we need to make an example out of this.

[23:40:01] LEMON: Yeah. Interesting to say the least. Let's talk about the message here, Ryan. What message does it send to Russia, what does it send to Putin, to the rest of the world, that these sanctions are now going to be relaxed?

LIZZA: Look, I think your average member of the Senate doesn't know a whole lot about this issue to be totally honest, right? So they're looking to the administration for guidance and they just want to be, most of them, where the Trump administration is.

And to the handful who actually care about the issue and look at it a little bit more deeply, the fact that a number of Republicans did break with Trump shows that his support, his sort of 90 percent solid support among Republicans, is starting to crack a little bit, right? Not in a huge way. Obviously not enough to get this legislation over the line. And if you look --

LEMON: Eleven Republican senators broke with the administration.

LIZZA: And they need three more to pass it to break a filibuster. And if you look at that list there, you know, some of those are the ones that are a little bit more serious and care a little bit more about foreign policy, people like Marco Rubio and Tom Cotton and Collins to a certain extent. Others are just looking for the Trump administration position on this. They are not going to go against Trump, right?

I do think -- is the glass half full or half empty here, right? Republicans

And he needs three more to pass to break a filibuster. If you look at the list there, some of the ones that are a little more serious and care a little bit more of foreign policy. And people like -- they're not going to go against trump, right?

I do think -- is the glass half full or half empty here, right? Are Republicans starting to break with Trump because they see him as his influence waning, as the shutdown goes on, as the economy starts to soften a little bit, and as the storm clouds gather around the White House with the Mueller report coming?

You know, I think this is -- this could be a bit of a hinge moment here with Republicans starting to move away from him on certain things.

LEMON: Douglas, the treasury secretary, Steve Mnuchin, lobbied Republican senators to relax the sanctions, but it doesn't sound like there are possible (ph) control of the country -- of the companies, I should say, went very far. Did the Trump administration get played?

BRINKLEY: I think the big thing that's going on here is just what Ryan was saying, Don. A group of Republicans, Lindsey Graham, we don't know what he is every day but Marco Rubio, but the foreign policy Republicans, I think, were shocked with syria. It broke them that this guy is willing to perhaps just disregard the Pentagon in such a reckless fashion.

And I think there is suspicion now for the first time, let's call it a gang of 10 Republican senators, Mitt Romney is now joining the Senate, they are worried, is Donald Trump really perhaps an agent of some force for the Kremlin? Is his ties as close to Putin as we thought?

And they are looking for cover. Some of them as starting to want to create a senatorial record that isn't just rubber stamping Donald Trump and fear of the mean tweet or Rush Limbaugh is going to attack them. And so I think there is becoming a new group of Republicans that are if not anti-Trump, they're willing to speak up a little more than we have seen before.

LEMON: Thank you, Douglas. Thank you, Jennifer. Thanks, Brian. I appreciate it.

LIZZA: Thanks.

LEMON: You got to see this. Spike Lee directed a short film for a protest song by The Killers called the "Land of the Free." He uses real footage of what is going on at the border, and Spike Lee tells me all about it next. [23:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is part of a new short film from The Killers' song. It is called "Land of the Free." You saw Spike Lee there. I'll tell you why he is here.

The protest song tackles the president's border wall, history of racism, mass incarceration and gun control. Directed by Spike Lee, who is here.

SPIKE LEE, FILM DIRECTOR: How are you doing?

LEMON: I'm doing -- I'm doing OK.

LEE: You're killing the game. I got to tell you that. You're killing it.

LEMON: I am just being me, and I am being honest.

LEE: I appreciate it.

LEMON: Telling the truth. I learned that from you. We had a conversation a while back and you helped me center. I appreciate that.

LEE: You did that yourself. It was just a couple words.

LEMON: Let's talk about this though, because Brandon called you up. Brandon Flowers, The Killers, called you up.

LEE: Yes, out of the blue.

LEMON: For this.

LEE: He said I just saw "BlacKkKlansman," I have a song, and I like you to do music video. I called it short film. I said, well, yeah, well, let me hear it first. And we heard it. When I heard it, I said this is a protest song.

It deals with mass incarceration, guns. The last stanza is about what is happening at the border. I chose that subject to be the whole thing of the short film instead of going (ph) from one, another to another.

LEMON: Was this a direct response to the policies that are being put --

LEE: Yes, but -- it is. But the song was the blueprint because - it is a protest song.

LEMON: Yeah.

LEE: I told you earlier, this is the third time it happened.

LEMON: The first person who called you up was?

LEE: Michael Jackson.

LEMON: "They Don't Care About Us."

LEE: "They Don't Care About Us." And then my brother, Prince, called me.

LEMON: Money --

LEE: "Money Don't Matter."

LEMON: "Money Don't Matter."

[23:50:00] LEE: (INAUDIBLE).

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Who do you think you are, Spike Lee? A little bit more of the short film "Land of the Free." Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So the number of issues that you talked about before, racism, gun control, but it also tackles the people who are down at the border, Mexican asylum seekers. Their families. You can see the woman looks terrified there. It's not the people that the president makes these people out to be.

LEE: My intent to do was to change the narrative. Even in the election, this guy in the White House said all Mexicans are rapists, drug dealers, and something else he said.

LEMON: Yeah.

LEE: And then when the caravan was coming --

LEMON: They're bringing crime.

LEE: Yeah. And then he's demonizing people. And then when they're coming, the caravan was coming, he said there's mid-easterners with them. So you know what that means, like, they're terrorists.

LEMON: Right.

LEE: Have you ever seen a nuclear bomb flip flop? These people walk hundreds of miles in flip-flops and bare feet.

LEMON: Right.

LEE: That's why we want to show the faces of humanity. Women, mothers, young children. They're not criminals.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

LEE: They're human beings who are fleeing the land where they live for a better place. And you can say, leaving out slavery, everybody is an immigrant.

LEMON: Right.

LEE: You know, native Americans were here before everybody. And people came from other lands to come to the land of the free.

LEMON: Yeah.

LEE: But, if you're brown, stick around.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: That's my next question. Spike, we could talk for hours.

LEE: But the whole thing, the title is ironic. It ain't for everybody.

LEMON: Right. It talks about people of color. The racial incidents in this country. It talks about gun control.

LEE: Yes.

LEMON: All of those issues.

LEE: And in the clip, you might show it, Brandon talked about inspiration, Sandy Hook. And then he mentioned Trayvon and Eric Garner, too.

LEMON: What do you think of this whole border wall situation? He's asking now for $5 billion more from Congress. You know you got 800,000 people who are not getting paid.

LEE: Let me tell you a story. In Brooklyn, on our block, we played sports no matter what the season is. There was always this one guy, one kid who can't get his way. Well, I'm taking my ball. I'm shutting it down. That's what this is.

But he's a dope. Supposed leader of the free world. He's not getting his way, so he says, he's saying, "F" it, I'm shutting it down. And now 800,000 Americans who might have been living check to check even before this thing. I mean, it's bananas. It's crazy.

LEMON: Yeah. Brandon called you up because, from The Killers, he called you because he saw "BlacKkKlansman."

LEE: Yeah.

LEMON: "BlacKkKlansman." You just won your first TGA (ph) award.

LEE: First -- nomination. LEMON: Nomination, I should say. Pardon me. And then now Oscar contention?

LEE: It comes out Tuesday. The nominations are announced.

LEMON: What do you think?

LEE: Don't bet the house!

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: I have to tell you, I had you here to talk about "BlacKkKlansman." I also did a panel on "BlacKkKlansman." I want to do another, wasn't available to do it. I believe in this film. I told you it was going to change minds and change things. It's amazing. Everyone should see it. Even if it's not nominated, you must be proud of it.

LEE: That's not the way -- "Do the Right Thing." My dear film was not nominated the best picture. "Driving Miss Daisy" won. I'm not doing this for accolades.

LEMON: Yeah.

LEE: I'm a storyteller. And history has shown that if it's good enough, it's going to last. And this film, "BlacKkKlansman," awards or no awards, it's going to be on the right side of history.

LEMON: Yeah.

[23:54:59] LEE: We have David Duke, the real David Duke, and this guy in the White House, at the end of the film? The president of the United States of America cannot condemn hatred. He did not condemned the KKK. He did not condemn the alt-right. He did not condemn Neo- Nazis. Stories (ph) go back. The right (INAUDIBLE). That might be the first they (ph) can go to.

LEMON: Yeah. You bring up a thing that I talk about all the time, about native Americans. Native Americans can say, our country.

LEE: This country, I know we got to go. But this country, I always get mad when people talk about the founders. The founders owned slaves.

LEMON: Yeah.

LEE: The founders, they wrote the declaration, all that stuff. But they owned slaves at the same time. So that kind of negates that. But this country, the foundation of the United States of America was built on genocide of people and slavery.

So if we are talking about American history and you'll start from the genocide of native Americans and slavery, then that's a false narrative. That's my idea. That's my opinion.

LEMON: Yeah. Spike Lee. "Land of the Free." "BlacKkKlansman."

LEE: Thank you. I want to give a shout-out to Brandon, it's a great song, protest song. And he called me.

LEMON: Right.

LEE: And I appreciate that.

LEMON: Thank you, Spike.

LEE: Thank you.

LEMON: Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)