Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
Stunning Revelations Raise Alarm for the Russia Probe; Michael Cohen Points Finger to His Boss About Lying to Congress; President Trump Directed His Attorney to Lie to Congress about the Moscow Tower Project. Aired 11-12a ET
Aired January 17, 2019 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
We have breaking news tonight on the Russia investigation. Here's what BuzzFeed news's reporting. That President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie in his testimony to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.
And this is stunning. They're also reporting that Trump supported a plan -- listen to this -- set up by Michael Cohen to visit Russia during the campaign to meet Vladimir Putin in person.
BuzzFeed also says Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews multiple witnesses from the Trump org, Trump org. As well as e-mails, texts, and other documents.
CNN has not yet confirmed the report. We have a lot to get to this hour. Let's begin with CNN's Sara Murray. Sara, this is stunning as BuzzFeed report that President Trump directed his attorney to lie to Congress about Moscow project. Tell us about the reporting. What are you hearing?
SARA MURRAY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT I mean, it is. It is a wild story. Because you know, if this is accurate, and as you pointed out CNN has not independently confirmed it. It's an indication that the president was in fact trying to obstruct justice.
Now the way that BuzzFeed has put it they cited two federal officials to say that President Trump directed Michael Cohen, to basically say the discussions about Trump Tower Moscow project ended earlier than they did. So it wouldn't look like Donald Trump was trying to negotiate this project while he was the GOP nominee in 2016.
Now the story also cites this line. It says, "The special counsel's office learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump organization and internal company e-mails, text messages in a case of other documents."
And Don, you can bet if the special counsel is planning on relying on this. If this is true, they would have to have documents to back it up because everyone knows at this point that Michael Cohen is a witness with a lot of problem. He's a guy who's already pled guilty to lying before Congress who's shown he's been willing to make things up to protect the president.
And so, in this case, you know, could certainly be making things up to protect himself if in fact this is somehow traced back to him. We don't have these documents that can corroborate these conversations at this point. What we do though, have tonight is a comment from Rudy Giuliani to CNN and other outlets. It says, if you believe Cohen, I can get you a good deal on the Brooklyn Bridge.
And I think this is what we're going to see from the president's legal team, essentially saying that Cohen is a liar and you can't believe anything.
LEMON: Interesting. So, what is the position been about the Trump Tower Moscow project from President Trump?
MURRAY: Well, if you want to talk about credibility problems that Michael Cohen has, obviously, Don, President Trump has the same kind of credibility problems. He was the person who was out there throughout the entire campaign saying I have no relationship with Russia. I have no business deals with Russia. I have no potential business deals with Russia.
And then when it came out that, in fact, they were talking about a Trump Tower Moscow project much longer than President Trump and then candidate Trump were originally forthcoming about, he said, you know, essentially, this was no big deal. Everyone knew about it at the time. It didn't go anywhere, and really tried to downplay it.
Although, obviously, the fact that the special counsel is looking into it is an indication that Robert Mueller is interested, Don.
LEMON: No collusion. No collusion. No collusion, right? That is what we have been hearing all along from the president from his team. But that message seems to have been intentionally muddied last night by Rudy Giuliani. Is Giuliani, is Rudy Giuliani trying to walk that back or just add to all of this confusion, Sara?
MURRAY: You know, he's insisting that he didn't mean anything by it. It's being misinterpreted. This idea that he said, you know, no collusion by Donald Trump. I don't really know what everyone else was up to. He tried to clarify this comment a number of different times today. And essentially, he says, look, I have no evidence that anyone else in the campaign colluded about anything, but my client is Donald Trump. I'm trying to protect my client, the president of the United States and that's who I was speaking for and that's what I was trying to make clear.
But I think the reality, Don, is that they've been surprised by a lot of the developments in this case, I mean, Paul Manafort sharing polling data I think is a good example of something no one really expected to see coming in this. And so, you know, he could say that this was just sort of an innocent misspeak, but maybe it's an indication that they're trying to brace themselves for other bombshells that they didn't necessarily know were coming.
[23:04:53] LEMON: All right. Sara, thank you. I appreciate your reporting on this.
I want to bring in now Ryan Lizza, and April Ryan who is author of "Under Fire: Reporting from the Front Lines of the Trump White House," and Garrett Graff, the author of "The Threat Matrix: Inside Robert Mueller's FBI in the War on Global Terror."
Good evening to all of you. So, Ryan, let me start with you. Give me your reaction to this BuzzFeed report.
RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, my first reaction is that the two 20th century impeachments Nixon and Clinton, the articles of impeachment drawn up by the Judiciary Committee in both of those cases subornation of perjury, encouraging someone to perjure themselves. That was a part of article one in the Nixon impeachment. Of course, he resigned before that got anywhere.
And that was a part of the Clinton impeachment as well. It's one of the shaky reports frankly, I think of the Clinton impeachment. But encouraging someone to lie to Congress, to the FBI, to any duly situated federal official or investigative body is a federal crime.
And so, this is probably one of the most serious pieces of reporting in the, you know, two plus years of this Russia investigation.
LEMON: All right. Let me through some of this and then I want you guys to respond, if you can, brief answers because I got to get a bunch of stuff in.
LIZZA: Yes.
LEMON: Trump received 10 personal updates from Michael Cohen and encouraged a plan meeting with Vladimir Putin. OK? President Donald Trump directed his long-term attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about negotiations to build the Trump Tower in Moscow according to two federal law enforcement officials involved in the investigation of that matter.
April, what you think about this reporting? I mean, if this proves to be true, again, we haven't independently confirmed it here at CNN. As Ryan says, this is huge.
APRIL RYAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, it's big. Ryan is absolutely right. But I'm going to say this. If Michael Cohen is done what he's done in the past what's alleged and he's acknowledged why is this any different? Really? You know, he was his fixer and his cleanup guy, the guy who would get his hands dirty. And this just -- this just really puts if this -- if this report is accurate. It just puts into once again the box that we already have about what Michael Cohen was for the present what he had done well for civilian or nominee Trump at the time.
LEMON: But April, this is not about Michael Cohen. This is about the action of the person who is president. This is about his actions at the time.
RYAN: It is. It is, but --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And it's according to multiple sources from the very organization of the president and of Michael Cohen.
RYAN: I understand. I understand. But what it does, Michael Cohen once again puts another nail in that coffin for this president because he had been doing things for the president. This is big. This is yet again another thing. We've heard so much. We've heard about payments, we've heard about this, we've heard about that.
And now this is just another thing. To tell -- for the president to tell him to move the time in 2016 when he was knowingly accounted and he knew. And this also shows that there was no learning curve. He knew what he was doing.
LEMON: Yes.
RYAN: But this, you know, it's just yet another thing.
LEMON: But here's the thing. But Garrett, here's the thing. He is telling the American public one thing, right? And then doing another thing behind-the-scenes trying to get a business deal instead of focusing on the business of the American people, he is trying to get a business deal for a Trump Tower in Moscow and then eventually lying about it.
GARRETT GRAFF, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. I think this is -- you know, Ryan and April I agree completely. This is some of the biggest most substantial new allegations that we have seen. Three things stand out to me and it really quickly.
The first is that this is based on Trump Organization documents and testimony from witnesses inside. I mean, that's a really good way to think about just how much visibility Bob Mueller has into the depths of the Trump organization's business dealings over the last couple of years.
The second is that this focuses on the lies to Congress, which is I think going to make it much harder for Congress to ignore this. I mean, this isn't something that they can brush away. This is something that arrives immediately on their doorstep.
And the third thing is again, this shows how much knowledge Bob Mueller has amassed that we don't know and that this obstruction case which we sort of think of very simply, as you know, well, did he fire Jim Comey and tried to block the Russia investigation in May of 2017?
Well, this instruction case, if and when it comes from Bob Mueller, it may actually stretch all the way up until the last couple of weeks. I mean, this is a --
RYAN: It's true. [23:09:55] GRAFF: -- pattern of activity that is ongoing and Bob Mueller is interested in all of it.
LEMON: Yes. Trump also encourage -- let me find the quote. Trump also encouraged Cohen to plan a trip to Moscow during the campaign, where the candidate could meet face-to-face with Putin.
Ryan, President Trump was trying to get a face-to-face meeting with the foe of the United States, allegedly according to BuzzFeed, during a presidential election campaign to get something of tremendous value for his personal business. Is that kompromat?
LIZZA: You stated it very well. And yes, this is, I mean, this report, the more I should have processed this report it's just incredible detail about the two biggies of the Russia investigation, right? The collusion aspect, right? This Trump building a relationship and trying to build a relationship, not just with folks in Moscow but with Putin himself while pursuing a financial -- while pursuing a project there. And then, when it sort of, unravels and is disclosed telling his top lawyer to lie about it, allegedly according to this report.
So, this goes to the heart of everything we've been talking about for the last couple of years, the collusion and the cover-up. So, you know, and as you pointed out, Don, it's not just -- it's two law enforcement sources and the sources citing document -- documentary evidence. So, you know it's reported in a pretty solid way.
And I'll just one other points. You know I reached out to Lanny Davis, Cohen's spokesperson and he sort of gave me a no comment but the way that they're giving a no comment is, you know, somewhat revealing, right? They're saying out of respect for the special counsel they're not going to respond to this piece of reporting, but they're certainly not saying this isn't true.
You know, they're not shutting the story down. They're just being respectful to the law enforcement.
LEMON: But they're not asking you in this story to believe just Michael Cohen.
LIZZA: Absolutely not.
LEMON: They're citing sources.
LIZZA: Yes.
LEMON: People who work for officials, people who work for Trump org. The quote that I just gave you before Trump also support a plan to set up Cohen to visit -- set up by Cohen to visit Russia during the presidential campaign in order to personally meet President Vladimir Putin and jumpstart the tower negotiations. Make it happen. It goes on to say the sources said Trump told Cohen.
What do you think will make it happen? What would happen if the American people had known that during the campaign, April? That is the question.
RYAN: You know, and Don, you hit the perfect question at this moment. You know, when it comes to the issue of Russia, and let's look at the last couple of months. People like, OK, it doesn't affect me personally but do I believe in him? And his base believed him, but yet those who are not necessarily his base don't.
LEMON: Yes.
RYAN: But when it's something that affects them personally like the shutdown, people are upset. So, you know, Russia is going to go on until Mueller and whatever happens on the hill happens. But people are now -- I think they are at the point where we are getting. We got a lot of stuff here. What's going to happen? What's next? What are you going to do Bob Mueller? What are you going to do, Elijah Cummings? What are you going to do, Nancy Pelosi?
People are now understanding that there is this stuff or these lies. These meetings that we're lied about or talks with Russia and things of that nature, but they want to know what's next, you know, we were getting all this. They want to know what's next. And that's when I think people will be more engage. They're waiting for the Mueller report. They're waiting. We don't know when. We don't know how. We don't know where?
LEMON: Yes.
RYAN: But they're waiting for this Mueller report.
LEMON: So, listen, let me give you another report -- another quote here, Garrett, this is for you.
And even as Trump told the public he had no business deals with Russia the source said that Trump and his children Ivanka, Donald Junior receive regular detailed updates about the real estate development from Cohen whom they put in charge of the project.
Your latest headline to your Wired piece is "Trump must be a Russian agent. The alternative is to awful." Put this in perspective for us.
GRAFF: Well, what I think what we have seen in this, you know, this new BuzzFeed reporting it even adds to it innocent explanations for Donald Trump's behavior over the last three years have been continually stripped away. And where we're left is effectively, I think with two scenarios, either Donald Trump is actively or was actively colluding with Russia or Donald Trump is going to go down in history as the most famous useful idiot in the history of Russia.
Useful idiot, of course, being the term that Soviet communist used to describe those that they co-opted without their knowledge.
[23:14:54] And frankly, what the challenge for the president is the deeper and the more we learn about the situation, the more it looks like that the better answer for the president is that he's a Russian agent, because at least that he looks smarter and wilier. Otherwise, he's just been played a fool. LEMON: Well, we appreciate you joining us on this breaking news. We have lots more to report. Thank you very much. Much more on our breaking news to come.
BuzzFeed is reporting that President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie in his testimony to Congress about negotiations to build a Trump Tower Moscow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Here's our reporting tonight. BuzzFeed reporting that President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about the Trump Tower Moscow project. Their sources, two federal law enforcement officials. They're also reporting that Trump supported a plan set up by Cphen to visit Russia during the campaign to meet Vladimir Putin in person.
[23:19:58] BuzzFeed says Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump organization, as well as e-mails, texts and other documents.
CNN is not yet independently confirmed the report. Neal Katyal is here to discuss. Neil, this is a blockbuster of the story. Thank you for joining us here. What's your reaction to this BuzzFeed piece? Is the president implicated in the crime here?
NEAL KATYAL, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: So, thanks for having me. Look, you know, we are reading the story right now. We don't know all the sourcing and so on, and it is suggesting the president and his engagement -- was engaged in criminal activity.
So, you know, look, beyond the treasonable doubt standard I think applies to the president at this point on. And look, here's the fundamental point. This isn't just nefarious behavior in terms of deceiving the electorate in 2016. It is a federal crime to order someone to lie in their testimony to Congress.
That's what the BuzzFeed article says and it says that Mueller has corroborated that with e-mail, text messages, electronic information and the like. Again, we don't know the veracity of that, but if it is true, you're absolutely right, Don, it's a blockbuster. It suggests the president himself committed felonies, not just directed other people to commit felonies but did it himself.
LEMON: And again, two federal law enforcement sources. Let's be clear about who these sources are according to BuzzFeed.
Neal, David Cicilline, a Democratic Congressman who sits on the House Judiciary Committee says. "If the president directed going Cohen to lie to Congress that is obstruction of justice, period, full stop."
Could this, if proven accurate, could this bring the president closer to impeachment?
KATYAL: Absolutely. So, look, it's a federal crime for sure, and then also it is exactly the kind of stuff the founders feared and why the impeachment clause success.
And look, I'm not sure Donald Trump at this point, you know, has anything else. I mean, he almost wants to be impeached at this point. I mean, just his behavior with the wall and stuff. He has no domestic agenda left. His domestic agenda is literally Twitter plus the wall. That's about it.
And impeachment would actually allow him to at least do what he loves, which is to be a snowflake and pretend he's the victim and the Democrats are this and that. But at the end of the day, I think the impeachment process if this -- if there are, you know, if these facts are corroborated in today's report. I actually just don't see how Congress can do anything else but commence an investigation into impeachment. I'll prejudge the outcome but I think they've got to launch that investigation.
LEMON: I've been going -- I'm going to the support and looking at some of this that Trump receive 10 -- according to BuzzFeed, 10 personal updates from Michael Cohen and encouraged a planned meeting with Vladimir Putin.
Here's a response from Rudy Giuliani. He told CNN "If you believe Cohen, I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge." But the report says that the special counsel learned about the president directing Cohen to lie through multiple witnesses as we said, documentary evidence as you pointed out, through two federal law enforcement sources. It seems like they have substantial proof.
KATYAL: Yes. And you know, I'd also point out it's not as if Rudy Giuliani's client is exactly, you know, Mother Theresa, someone who tells the truth either. I mean, I think one of the fundamental things that's happened with respect to the Russia investigation over the last two years is every single time Russia comes up the Trump folks and Trump lie about it, including, you know, what Giuliani said yesterday, and everything else.
And you know, these are folks who were warned. In August 2016 before the election, look, the Russians are trying to infiltrate your campaign. Please tell us about it if you have any contacts with the Russians.
LEMON: Yes.
KATYAL: They never told the FBI any these contacts and then lied about them. So, this is all part of a standard, you know, a standardized practice of lying and that's why there has to be the Mueller investigation. That's why there has to be a robust congressional investigation as well.
LEMON: I read Rudy Giuliani's response, again, telling CNN "If you believe Cohen, I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge." He doesn't have much credibility, especially after he walked -- spent the day walking back what he said on CNN last night, basically admitting there was collusion in the campaign or there might be collusion. KATYAL: Absolutely. I mean, you know, yesterday he says one thing. Today, he says another. Both contradict what he said last year. I mean, you know, I understand he's a lawyer he's got a job to do, but at this point, the facts are the facts. They've got to come out and the president's lawyers have been incapable of telling the truth.
I'll give this to Giuliani. Sometimes he does tell the truth. He said it was a Muslim ban, you know it was a Muslim ban. You know, yesterday he said effectively that there -- you know, implied there was evidence of collusion. Today he tried to walk it back. But I think, you know, yesterday at least he started to get somewhere toward the truth.
[23:25:03] So, you know, I think the facts are coming out what happened with Manafort last week, what happened with Flynn, the national security advisor before.
This is a really devastating portrait and all Americans have got to be sad about it and I think everyone should be calling for a robust investigation, both on the criminal side, as well as the House.
LEMON: Attorneys -- BuzzFeed says attorneys close to the administration help Cohen with his statement to Congress. We don't know who they are or if they are from the White House counsel's office. But are they in any trouble, Neal?
KATYAL: I'm sure. I mean, lawyers, you know, there's a crime fraud exception to attorney-client privilege, you know, lawyers can't be helping people commit crimes using their law license in that way. To the extent any of that happened, and of course, right now, the sourcing is thin. This is a news story. So, I'm not all suggesting that that happened. But if it happened, sure, lawyers would be implicated as well.
Your attorney, you know, just because you're an attorney doesn't mean you're shielded from criminal prosecution. Just like in my view, just because you're the president doesn't mean you're shielded from criminal prosecution either.
LEMON: Neal Katyal, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.
KATYAL: Thank you.
LEMON: We've got a lot more and are stunning of course. We've got a lot more on our stunning breaking news. BuzzFeed reporting that President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie in his testimony about negotiations to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.
[23:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We are back. We are going to continue on now with our breaking news breakdown, this BuzzFeed reporting that President Trump himself directed his personal attorney, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress about the Trump Tower Moscow Project. Their sources, two federal law enforcement officials. I want you to listen to -- this is what the president said just this past November after Cohen admitted he lied about that project. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There would be nothing wrong if I did do it. I was running my business while I was campaigning. There was a good chance that I wouldn't have won, in which case I would have gotten back into the business. And why should I lose lots of opportunities?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It said Robert Mueller's office learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization as well as e-mails, texts and other documents. CNN has not yet independently confirm this reporting.
Neal Katyal is back with us, also Josh Campbell and Philip Mudd.
Welcome to the program. It is the same thing that Rudy Giuliani does. Well, collusion is not a crime. Even if he did do it, it was a long time ago. He just said, even if I did do it, it wasn't illegal. What the hell is going on here?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, this is a crime if this pans out to be the case he's reporting. I have no reason to doubt this is from Jason Leopold of BuzzFeed who is one of the best in the business when it comes to this beat. But if you are directing someone to lie to Congress, that is a crime.
What's interesting here is that, obviously, it is stunning. I had two reactions. First, as an American, you think, wow, the president of the United States directing someone to lie to the legislative branch. As a national security analyst, I wasn't that surprised because we've seen the lies over and over and over again.
The key here is to try to bring the receipts, these article talks about text messages and e-mails, what are those? Is that Michael Cohen saying hey, the boss told me to do X, Y, and Z? A lot of that will be hearsay. We have to wait and see what that is, if it implicates the president even more than this stunning report.
LEMON: Go on.
PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Let me tell you something. Josh was an agent. I was what we call a support officer. We are analysts who collect information and try to support agents in the field. My observation after four and a half years in the bureau, if you want to kickoff a bureau agent, forget about whether you are the president or John Doe. Lie.
OK, so one of the questions here is not whether you think a major federal law was violated. Any time you lie, that's a thousand one violation. That's lying to a federal officer, Congress, the FBI. You're going down. The first case I ever witnessed at the FBI, lying to federal officer. That kid, he was 19, is still in federal prison. Let me tell you one other thing and Josh is right.
NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: Don --
MUDD: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
LEMON: Let him finish his point, Neal, and I'll let you jump in.
MUDD: The question here is going to be, do we have a witness here who is telling the truth? Josh is right. You are going to look at everything from phones, e-mails, interviews. What did Don Jr. say about this? Did he validate this? I'm guessing not. Did he also lie? And so, is he going to be implicated in the federal crime? There are about 17 dimensions here, Don, that you got to figure out before you get to the bottom of this.
LEMON: Go ahead, Neal.
KATYAL: Sorry to interrupt you before, but I would say there are two different things we are talking about here. One is that video tape you just played of Trump, that's about whether Trump could continue his businesses in Russia and lie to the public before the election in saying I have no dealings in Russia when he did. That's one thing.
This news today is very different. This news is about how Trump directed his attorney, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress about Russia. And whatever else one may think about lying to the public or whatever, 18 U.S. C Section Two A (ph) says when you order someone to lie, you're acting as a principal and you are guilty of a felony, punishable by, I think, five years in prison and the like.
And so this is now squarely within the ambit (ph), if these reports are accurate of criminal activity by Donald Trump.
LEMON: Let's read the quote here. "The special counsel's office learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization and internal company e-mails, text messages, and a cache of other documents." Cohen then acknowledged those instructions during his interviews with that office.
CAMPBELL: Well, look, we've said Michael Cohen is the guy who knows where all the bodies were buried and it looks like he is now leading us to those publicly. He did the same with the special counsel. At this point, he really has nothing to lose. We know he is going to be testifying. Everybody will be watching that hearing. He actually goes before the American people and Congress, lays out to the extent he can, you know, without giving up too much that would (INAUDIBLE) Mueller, the special counsel.
[23:35:00] But again, we are going to find out a lot of details. This is someone who was the right hand man of the president. We know that he's closely linked to a lot of these dealings. And the fact that he is now going to jail, he has nothing to lose. He can come out and describe what he knows.
One thing I will say though, you know, as an investigator and those of us who are in this business, you do give the presumption of innocence when it is there, we are dealing with two people who lie a lot, right? We know the president lies almost every single day and multiple times. We know that Michael Cohen has admitted to lying.
So, at the end of the day, who do you believe the most? Again, when we bring in those documents and e-mails and text messages, that will help maybe shift at least our view about who is telling the truth.
MUDD: One important point, and Neal would know more about this than I would. Remember, the president is angry about what he calls as inappropriate FBI raids on Cohen's office, on his hotel room, on his home. Why is he worried about those raids? My guess is he's worried about those raids because they are acquiring documents that might validate this.
As Josh is suggesting, you put Michael Cohen in front of the defense attorney, that defense attorney is going to rip him apart for lying. If, however, they are validating documents, for example, e-mails where Cohen refers to this at the same time, boy, the president is in trouble.
LEMON: Neal, let me get you jump in. I thought this is important, too. The two sources have told BuzzFeed News that Cohen also told the special counsel that after the election, the president personally instructed him to lie by claiming that negotiations ended months earlier than they actually did in order to obscure Trump's involvement. What does that mean? What are the implications of that?
KATYAL: They're astounding. It means that the president is himself a criminal. And, you know, regardless of where you sit on the political isle or not, that is a devastating thing for the country to learn if it is accurate. We got to make sure it is accurate through a robust investigation.
LEMON: Right, if the report is true.
KATYAL: But if it accurate, I know some people feel like -- I think some people feel like we have been living in a nightmare for a while. This is the beginning of a new national nightmare.
LEMON: Interesting.
KATYAL: It is astounding.
LEMON: I want to -- go on.
CAMPBELL: No, I was just going to say, it is really interesting, if you go back to that place and time and try to figure out why were they doing what they were doing, there is that narrative that maybe the president never thought that he was actually going to win, so he continued with these business dealings and trying to set himself up.
This really tracks with that view, that after now that he's elected, now what do we do? We all have these things that we've done in the past. We know that they're potentially illegal. We got to lie about them. We got to cover him up. And I think that's what --
LEMON: Even if he did not think he was going to win, that does not make it right.
CAMPBELL: It does not make it right. Still illegal. We are dealing with people that are not dealing in the realm of legality. But again, I think it helps to explain perhaps, again if all this really pans out, explain kind of what the thought pattern was, what was going through their minds after the election. Now what do we do?
LEMON: Philip, I want you to take a look. This is exchange between --
KATYAL: And the president --
LEMON: Go on. I'll get this in. You guys really want to weigh in on this. Go on.
(LAUGHTER)
KATYAL: And the president's action here is really very, very similar to the way organized crime bosses behave. First, lie about it. Second, when people turn on you, call them rats and things like that. And then when documents and e-mails are seized, say, oh, I have attorney-client privilege or this or that.
In an organized crime cases, these defenses fall by the wayside because the truth is paramount. Here, the truth will be paramount. There will be investigation. We are going to find the facts out. I think if the facts are corroborated, if the stories are corroborated, Donald Trump is a criminal and there will be appropriate punishment.
LEMON: Go on, Philip.
MUDD: Let's not make this too complicated. We have seen this a handful of times if not more already in this investigation. It is the same in every investigation I witnessed. Michael Flynn thinks they're not going to know what I really did in terms of my conversation with Kislyak, the Russian ambassador. I'm going to lie.
Paul Manafort says they're not really going to know what I did. The investigators are not bright. They are actually federal government officials, people like me, so we're all dumb. He lies. What happens with other other people in the investigation? Michael Cohen, he initially lies. George Papadopoulos, he initially lies.
The president is like every other -- at least 50 percent of the subjects I ever witnessed as an analyst. The feds are stupid, I'm going to lie, and they'll never figure out the facts. And what you learn time and time again is, when the feds go in and asks Don Lemon, what did you do that day?
LEMON: You got to tell exactly what you did that day.
MUDD: Because they already know what Don Lemon did that day and they are waiting for you to say, well, I went out for a latte and actually (INAUDIBLE).
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Soda.
CAMPBELL: You know who I am actually thinking about right now, obviously we are zeroing in and honing in on this one particular piece, but what about the people that we long call the enablers, the people that are in Trump's orbit who may not been complicit in that?
[23:40:01] People that are sitting right now working in the White House, people in Congress that have continued to defend the president and have been complicit in this campaign of attack against law enforcement, against Mueller, calling it a witch hunt. What must they be thinking right now if they are honest with themselves?
LEMON: Yeah.
CAMPBELL: When they see these reports continue to come out about alleged malfeasance that is building a pattern. It got to be stunning.
LEMON: So someone who's not -- quite honestly who is not a Trump supporter saying, I know people are not shocked Trump directed his attorney to lie, really people. I said, are you not shocked? This is just within last few minutes. I am not shocked at all. That's right up his alley. That's it.
Neal, I want you to take a listen to this exchange between Senator Lindsey Graham and attorney general nominee Barr just on Tuesday. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: If there was some reason to believe that the president tried to coach somebody not to testify or testify falsely, that could be obstruction of justice.
WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: Yes, under obstruction.
GRAHAM: If there is an evidence that the president tried to conceal evidence, that would be obstruction of justice potentially, right?
BARR: Right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Neal, what does it mean for the Russia investigation and the new attorney general if he does end up confirmed?
KATYAL: Boy, Don, your video people are really good to get that quote out that fast. I do think that that demonstrates the real issue here. Even folks like Lindsey Graham who are very prominent defenders of President Trump and even Bill Barr who is reading a kind of ridiculous memo, essentially saying it is very hard for the president to obstruct justice.
Both of them admit that when activity like what is in the BuzzFeed story that just came out, comes out, if that's true, that is obstruction of justice even under the narrowest interpretation, and it's obstruction of justice even when committed by the president. So again, we are now in this crosshairs of a serious federal crime allegedly being committed by Donald Trump. That is different than the other stories that we have been dealing with in the last couple of years because it is about the president himself. It is not about Manafort or Flynn.
Sure here it's about Cohen who is the agent of Trump but Trump is the actual criminal under our federal criminal law if the story is accurate, and that's why it is such an astounding piece of news.
LEMON: Let me ask you this, Josh. The thinking is that a sitting president can't be indicted, but -- I mean, even if he did instruct Cohen to lie to Congress. How is he hold accountable? Can he be charged after office?
CAMPBELL: So there are two thoughts here. You have the legal thought and the political thought. Obviously, impeachment is a political proceeding. It is a manner in which the people, our legislators --
LEMON: Never been tested though, the theory that --
CAMPBELL: Well, I am talking about impeachment of itself. If they look at this and if they're honest with themselves and say, all right, we now reach the level of high crimes and misdemeanor, if this can be proven, then what is the remedy? And that's impeachment.
There is also school of thought that perhaps Robert Mueller and his team of prosecutors will have an indictment that's filed and waiting for the day the president leaves office, and then he can't pardon himself. And then we are in a whole different territory.
Again, that's a long time away. That's two years. An eternity from now. The question will come down to what will Congress do. Again, if they are honest with themselves, when they see this pattern of reporting, when they see what Mueller's actually comes up with, are they going to be honest with themselves and do what they think is necessary when faced with this type of criminality?
LEMON: Remember during the campaign, the president said, what's wrong? We should have a good working relationship with Russia. They can help us in the Middle East or build -- what he didn't say is build my Trump Tower in Moscow.
MUDD: He was right. I remember looking at that and saying, look, every president, Bush, Obama, etcetera said we need a reset. We actually had Hillary Clinton pressing a button and saying we need a reset. I thought the president was right. We are in a bad place in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine with the Russians. That is a different proposition in looking at the American people and saying, look, I never did anything wrong, I never colluded.
And now as Neal said, this is a different -- we talked about this for two years now. This is a different game. You are not talking about Manafort, you are not talking about Cohen, you are not talking about Flynn, you are not talking about Papadopoulos. You are talking about the president of the United States directing an illegal activity. The game is changed today, Don. The game changed.
LEMON: This revelation is not the first evidence that suggests the president may have attempted to obstruct the FBI and special counsel investigation into Russia's interference in 2016.
CAMPBELL: Yes, it is stunning. Again, as an American, I'm siting here thinking, you know, what is going on in this country? Every single day, we have new reports that the commander in chief is either obstructing justice or has done something in the past.
Again, these are all allegations. We can't become numb to this, right? We are becoming numb to the lies. This is not a partisan issue, by the way. That's why I mentioned the enablers earlier. Even Republicans have to be looking at this reporting.
[23:45:01] And if they are honest with themselves --
LEMON: I think you're absolutely right, but the first inclination is because there is so much that is going on, the president seems -- he spins a tale and he just keeps on moving that, OK, what else is going to come from this? I think -- there is no -- this is -- there is no denying the enormity of the story if it does pan out.
CAMPBELL: That's right. We know they are preparing for that, right? We know that they are actually and there was some reporting from Pamela Brown earlier today about the Clinton model that they may be adopting as far as how the Clinton camp responded to Starr (ph), where you have an all hands on their (ph) approach, you have people that already block stock (ph), you know, the public relation side.
They're going to need that, Don, because once this report comes out, many people look at this and say, you know, if it does not point to criminality exactly where you have Mueller saying we are going to take action, at least the totality of what's there is going to be incredibly damming for this administration.
LEMON: That's got to be the last word. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. We got a lot more breaking news tonight in this BuzzFeed report. President Trump himself directed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress about the proposed Trump Tower Moscow Project.
[23:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We're back now with our big breaking news. BuzzFeed reporting that President Trump personally directed his long-time attorney, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress about the Moscow Trump Tower Project. Their sources, two federal law enforcement officials involved in an investigation of the matter.
BuzzFeed says Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team learned about Trump's directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization, as well as e-mails, texts, and other documents. CNN has not yet confirmed the report.
But here to discuss, Timothy Naftali, the author of "Impeachment: An American History," and David Rohde joins us as well. Good evening, gentlemen. So I have to start with this BuzzFeed
reporting tonight. An impeachable offense? I'll start with you, Tim.
TIMOTHY NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Impeachment is a political process. The first thing the president's defenders are going to say is this is hearsay. They want to see the evidence. They want the evidence that the big man ordered -- suborning of perjury.
This was a big deal in the Nixon era, but you had the tapes. And on the tapes, you could hear the big man actually order the obstruction of justice. So the question here is, what are the source that drove the investigators to conclude that the president suborned perjury?
If the sources make it clear that Trump ordered it, that's one thing. If it's somebody else saying the big man wants this done, that's hearsay, and I don't think you'll get 67 senators to throw him out of office.
LEMON: David, I want you to listen. This is Senator Amy Klobuchar and AG nominee Barr on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D), MINNESOTA: In your memo, you talked about the Comey decision and you talked about obstruction of justice. You already went over that, which I appreciate. You wrote on page one that a president persuading a person to commit perjury would be obstruction. Is that right?
BARR: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: OK.
BARR: Well, any person who persuades another, yeah.
KLOBUCHAR: OK. You also said that a president or any person convincing a witness to change testimony would be obstruction. Is that right?
BARR: Yes.
KLOBUCHAR: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What position is Barr now? Is he going to be called back to testify?
DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: He could be. I was at the entire hearing through the seven hours. And I just want to back up what Tim said. That's what Klobuchar, what Democrats are pushing on. All the Republicans were basically saying they will stand by this president. And unless there is a smoking gun, a tape, clear proof that he ordered Michael Cohen to lie to congress, which is an impeachable offense, but without that kind of proof, Republicans aren't going to move. And you saw how hesitant Barr was there. He has been very careful. He is trying to get confirmed. He has to keep the president happy, the Republicans happy. But the atmosphere at that hearing was not at all that the Republican Party is shifting away from the president and they're going to believe Michael Cohen over Donald Trump.
LEMON: Here's what the incoming chairman of the House Intelligence Committee just tweeted. He said, "the allegation that the president of the United States may have suborned perjury before our committee in an effort to curtail the investigation and cover up his business dealings with Russia is among the most serious to date. We will do what's necessary to find out if it's true."
And then Joaquin Castro tweeted this. "If the BuzzFeed story is true, President Trump must resign or be impeached." Is he right?
NAFTALI: Oh, if the president of the United States suborned perjury, yes, he must resign or be impeached. There is no doubt about that. But impeachment is a political process, and we were very lucky in the Watergate era that there were tapes.
LEMON: Right.
NAFTALI: I believe that had there not been tapes, Richard Nixon would have finished his second term.
LEMON: Do you think there could be tapes from Cohen on any of this?
NAFTALI: I believe, again, what I want is if the president committed -- if he suborned perjury and had people lie under oath to save his skin, then -- then he needs to go.
LEMON: OK, but let --
NAFTALI: But we have to prove it.
LEMON: OK, Tim. Let me push back a little bit. We have the tapes of Cohen lying about Stormy Daniels or the conversation with the president about Stormy Daniels, and then the president lying about it. What happened?
(LAUGHTER)
NAFTALI: Well, here's the issue. I'm just saying that we can anticipate that the president's supporters are not going to accept hearsay.
[23:55:01] And if they don't accept hearsay, you don't get a removal. And if we have an impeachment without a removal, it will be Clinton all over again where the country will be split in half. It will look like a partisan effort, and President Trump will become a martyr.
LEMON: Yeah. What I'm saying, I'm bolstering your point by saying even if there is evidence, even when people people hear it with their own ears, they don't often believe it.
ROHDE: Well, he'll declare it's a fake tape. I didn't say that. That's some -- I mean, that's the the difference too --
LEMON: We don't know if there is a tape, but you're saying it's got to be some conclusive evidence.
ROHDE: He lies all the time and he will just, you know, that's fake. I didn't say that and that's what's so difficult.
LEMON: "Access Hollywood," grab them by the whatever didn't make a difference. This is what Rudy Giuliani said in response to the BuzzFeed. "If you believe Cohen, I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge."
ROHDE: That's what they're going to do. And this is Michael Cohen saying Donald Trump told me this. There is no other proof. They'll just laugh it off.
NAFTALI: You know, in 1974, Republican members of Congress who heard Nixon say to Dean, I can find the money, I can find the hush money, and they still said, unless you can prove that he actually gave the money to E. Howard Hunt, he should stay in offic e.
LEMON: Goalposts --
NAFTALI: Yes.
LEMON: -- keep continuing to move. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. We're going to continue on with our breaking news coverage. Thanks for watching.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
