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Don Lemon Tonight

Mueller's Office Disputes BuzzFeed Report That Trump Directed Michael Cohen To Lie To Congress; President Trump Say He'll Make A Shutdown Announcement Tomorrow, But Will It Be Substantive; Prayer Rugs At the Southern Border. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired January 18, 2019 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: All right. So, lets -- we're always on honest. I want to say let's be honest. SO, people love this, you and I, when we talk because it's unscripted and it's real. And this is how we talk to each other in everyday life, right?

And we have this very serious conversation about Steve King and about race earlier in the week and people are like, oh my gosh, it's like, well, that's how Chris and I speak to each other everyday because that's how real friends talk to each other, right? You're honest. You don't hold back.

So you feel a certain way, and I feel a certain way. And I said to you, I said, Chris, let's see if we're talking about this next week. It's not even next week. Have you heard any Republicans speak out?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Yes.

LEMON: About -- in a significant way? Have you heard any people saying, you know, I've changed my mind about, you know, this President and about race and about me overlooking race, and I've been really thinking about it? Have you honestly heard anyone?

CUOMO: Well, it depends what your measure is. If you're talking about like has the mood of the country changed, I think we're heading in the right direction to begin with. I think what this abhorrent. I think what this president is playing on is a toxic minority. He is the silence that is deafening. Congress came out. His own party stepped up. It may have taken too long. That is a fair argument. The Des Moines register, the hometown paper of Steve King, said he is got to resign.

It's the President's silence that has to be called out. If your leaders don't move, the needle doesn't move. And, look, that is what we're using the platform for, right? We got given the time by CNN. This is how I want to use it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: We talked about it several times this week, and I'm going to keep bringing it up every time there's an example of why it needs to be called out.

LEMON: OK. So when we had that conversation, by the way, it would have been the 90th birthday of Dr. King.

CUOMO: Right.

LEMON: And you said something -- and this is what I meant to convey in that, and maybe I didn't do it as articulately as Dr. King did. Dr. King said, the ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people because remember I said, we always call out the extremes. He said it's not the cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people. That was my point, is that we call out the extremes all the time.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: But for the good people, the people who believe that they are good and they sit around, and they do nothing, and they don't question why they are doing something or if their fellow man feels a certain way about something that is really important and deep to them that they don't really think about it in a way that makes a difference overall outside of their lives. You understand what I'm saying?

CUOMO: A hundred percent.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: A hundred percent. You know, many wise men and women over the years have encapsulated that thought, you know, all evil needs to spread is for good men to stand by and do nothing.

LEMON: And do nothing, right.

CUOMO: Good men and women, obviously. And I believe that to this day. I think that is why the job in part of journalism is to call out these kinds of moments. I think leaders have to be called to account for what they do in these moments. I think the president thinks he is going to get away with saying nothing.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I think he believes if he just waits, his special announcement tomorrow, whatever the hell it is that comes up, he'll get away from it. But every time something comes up that proves that he is trying to reinforce a backward message of xenophobia and division in a place where that's truly poison, it's got to be called out. And I'll tell you what, message for 2020, you want to make an inroad into this country, you got to remember -- remind it what it is at its best again.

LEMON: Yes. I think that this president is not going to change. I don't believe that people can't change. Trust me. I don't. We -- over and over we hear in the news media, Democrats, Republicans, even his supporters question why he says and does certain things.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: Ask him -- people ask him really to correct, to right himself.

CUOMO: Yes.

LEMON: To do the right -- and he never does. If you're 70-something years old, you're used to having your way the entire time, you like winning, you don't really have any deep convictions about anything except for winning, except for people talking about you, it's never going to change.

So what I'm saying is, we should not -- it should be incumbent upon this president to change and to say something, but it's never going to happen. What is most important or more important is for the good people who sit idly by, don't do anything, look for him to change the narrative. It's incumbent upon us to do that.

I had someone send me a note earlier in the week, and they said, I heard what you said to Chris, and I was deeply moved by it. And I am a person who's very open to all kinds of people, to diversity, but I have to be honest with you. In my personal life, I really don't associate with people who don't look like me. I don't have many black friends. I don't have many Latino friends. I don't have many Muslim friends. What should I do? I'm a very busy person. I work a lot. I'm trying to make ends meet.

[22:05:00] Is it bad that I don't feel that I have the time to make the effort to do that? I don't know if it's bad. I didn't respond to the person. I think I will. I don't know if it's bad that they don't do it, but I think in this day and time, it's really important that we do, even if we don't think we have the time to do it.

CUOMO: Yes. I think especially now that that is one of the messages although, you know, let's not put too harsh a limitation on empathy.

LEMON: Right.

CUOMO: You know, you can feel for people that you don't necessarily identify with in situations that you aren't living. You can do that. Obviously, exposure to things is an enhancement of your understanding of those same things, but you don't have to live it to care about it, and care about it in others. But you know --

LEMON: Yeah. But --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: -- Don, don't misunderstand why I say this about the president. It's not because I'm pushing him to change. He should change or not based on what he wants to do. He'll be measured by that. I keep hitting him here because this is what he has shown me that needs to be hit.

LEMON: I appreciate you calling it out, but I think it's an exercise in futility. I really do. I think that our efforts are better spent in other places like --

CUOMO: Than calling out the need to step on bigotry?

LEMON: No. I think you should call it out, but I do think it's an exercise in futility and there are other ways to do it that are more important and more impactful. And don't get me wrong. Empathy is one thing, but empathy is something that you can do from a distance, like my grandmother or my mom used to say, you treat that person with a long-handled spoon, which means you deal with them, but you do it from a distance, right?

When the most important thing, the way that you and I get to understand each other and love each other is by actually spending time together and having a real relationship. It's not just passing each other in the halls at work. It's not just having a desk next to someone. It is having someone over to your house for dinner, going to the movies with someone, going out to dinner with someone, you know, going to the park.

CUOMO: Spending time.

LEMON: Going for a run, working out, any sort of -- having a coffee, any sort of -- volunteering with that person, any sort of little thing. Otherwise, the empathy means nothing because it's all here. It doesn't mean anything. It's just in your head, like, oh, my God, I feel so sorry, I can -- I just can't imagine how those women and the Me Too Movement, it's just so terrible.

Well, spend some time with women who have been affected by it or just women in general listening to what they have to say. Stop man- splaining so much. Spend some time with your Muslim brothers and sisters who feel that they're being targeted by this administration that their misunderstood. That is where the real difference comes from, not from Donald Trump standing there going, oh, my gosh, you know, I condemn this. He should do that, but it's not going to happen.

CUOMO: I think that it all matters. I think that there's no replacement for intimacy and experience. Obviously, if you're with someone and you're close to somebody, that is -- there's no substitute for that. But a lot of people don't have access, inclination, maybe based on their community and where they are, maybe it is hard for them.

LEMON: I think that is an excuse.

CUOMO: Maybe. Maybe it is. I mean, it's a little bit difficult for me to appreciate that because of where I grew up. You know what I mean, I didn't -- but I've traveled this entire country. I've traveled the whole world. This country is certainly isolated in certain pockets and in terms of the communities. I get it. But I do think it all matters, Don. This isn't just Donald John Trump and how I think he should behave as a 70-something-year-old man. This is the president of the United States.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You're entering Martin Luther King weekend --

LEMON: Who got there by disparity, by disparaging.

CUOMO: -- and you're talking about prayer rugs? That's right, but you're talking about prayer rugs?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: You're talking about Muslims as part of a brown menace when we're about to celebrate Dr. King and his message of inclusion?

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: So, I think it all matters. I think you're spot-on about what people can do, and I also think that the accountability reminds people of why it matters as much as it does.

LEMON: It's not too much to ask people. I want you to care more, and I want you to mean it. And I want you to show that caring and that meaning by actually making an effort to really do something rather than say, oh, my gosh, it's so -- it's like a hashtag. What does that really mean, right?

So, that's how I feel about that. I got some big breaking news to get to. Speaking of experiences, I can't wait for the dance-off because, you know, I'm going to kick your butt.

CUOMO: Whenever you want. That will be one of the few moments that don't bring us closer together because you are going to be salty.

LEMON: Hey, have a great weekend. Stay warm. It's going to be chilly, chilly, chilly.

CUOMO: You too. I'll talk to you soon.

LEMON: Hello, everyone. This is CNN Tonight, I'm Don Lemon. Here's our big story tonight. Robert Mueller's office, in an extremely rare comment on a published story, saying tonight that BuzzFeed's description in its report alleging that President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress, they're saying it's inaccurate, quote, "BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office and characterizations of documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding Michael Cohen's Congressional testimony are not accurate."

[22:10:00] Hang on to that, because we're going to go over that. We're going to parse that response, OK? I think it's very important for what was said there, some words that were used, some things that were left out.

And the fact that Mueller's office almost never comments on stories, which shows just how seriously they're taking this, BuzzFeed's Editor in Chief putting out a statement tonight saying, quote, "in response to the statement tonight from the special counsel's spokesman, we stand by our reporting and the sources who informed it, and we urge the special counsel to make clear what he is disputing."

I think this is really important, because they're not just saying, hey, have you seen about it, -- they want to know what are you saying is wrong so that we can defend ourselves or correct ourselves. We need to get to the truth of all of this, to get the facts. As we always say, facts first. That is what's important here. The stakes here could not be higher. This shows -- this shows you just how much credibility Robert Mueller's office has, quite frankly, which is incredibly important as his investigation continues.

And all of this makes it that much more important to hear what Michael Cohen himself says when he testifies before Congress next month. We are devoting a lot of time to this story tonight, so make sure you stick around for that, but there's a lot going on.

Let's just step back here and think about it, all right? You've probably forgot. This is a week that began with the President saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I never worked for Russia, and you know that answer better than anybody. I never worked for Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK? That was just on Monday, everyone. And it was just two days ago that the President's lawyer said this to my colleague, Chris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GUILIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign.

CUOMO: Yes, you have.

GUILIANI: I have no idea if -- I have not. I said the president of the United States --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And then spent the entire next day walking that back. And of course, the shutdown is still continuing with no end in sight, hundreds of thousands of Americans not getting paid. That as the President is escalating his feud with speaker -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, after he abruptly denied her military plane for her trip to Afghanistan with a congressional delegation, which I should point out is her job.

He told her she could always fly commercial, and she quietly made plans to do just that. By the way, hold the prompter there. The Speaker of the House is second in line to the President. After 9/11, there's a reason why the speaker doesn't -- isn't supposed to fly commercial. It has to do with national security and the safety of this country. I digress. Then the White House blew up that plan by, she says, leaking the details of the delegation's commercial plane travel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: We have the prerogative to travel commercially, and we made plans to do that until the administration then leaked that we were traveling commercially, and that endangers. We weren't going to go because we had a report from Afghanistan that the president outing our trip had made the scene on the ground much more dangerous because it's just a signal to the bad actors that we're coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: By the way, I have to do a hat tip. Honestly, give credit where credit is due. I have to give the hat tip to my friend Lawrence O'Donnell over at MSNBC, who made that perfectly clear about after 9/11, why the Speaker of the House does not fly commercial. Thank you, Lawrence. I appreciate that.

This is serious stuff. The White House denying they put the safety of a Congressional Delegation at risk. Let's all look at the facts here. The President announced the details of that trip. He openly suggested the delegation could fly commercial to a war zone. That is putting all of them at risk, and why? You know why. It's all about the president's wall, the reason for the longest government shutdown in our history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president did not want Speaker Pelosi to leave the country is because if she did it would all but guarantee the fact that the negotiations couldn't take place over the weekend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So who is being hurt the worse by the shutdown now just hours away from entering day 29? It's almost a month. I think it's fair to say you can just say it's a month, right? Polls show a majority of Americans -- the majority of America, well, they blame the President for all of this.

Some of his advisers worrying that as things get worse for unpaid workers the president could lose even more support. And things are getting worse. They are getting worse. Top TSA management has told officials at airports around the country not to make details public about how many screeners or missing work in the shutdown. That is according to an internal e-mail obtained by CNN.

[22:15:00] The Association of Assistant U.S. Attorneys says, the shutdown is affecting criminal cases with investigations and grand jury panels slowing down as, quote, "perpetrators remain at large." And furloughed workers, people with jobs, are lining up for food donations.

The former President George W. Bush delivered pizzas today to his Secret Service detail. Yes, even the people who protect our president and former presidents are going without pay. The former president putting out a statement, saying, quote, "it's time for leaders on both sides to put politics aside, come together, and end this shutdown." While House majority leader, Steny Hoyer, says this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: This is a shutdown that is the longest in history. It's the dumbest in history, and it may well be the most damaging in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And as the shutdown is getting closer to grinding into its 29th day, the president says he is making what he calls a major announcement concerning the humanitarian crisis on our Southern Border and the shutdown in a speech tomorrow afternoon, it's at three, it's from the White House.

He says he'll offer a proposal to end the shutdown, but without giving in on the wall. So, it remains to be seen whether that is another presidential stunt related to the wall or a substantive announcement. It's always a question with this administration. Is it a stunt or is it substantive?

And on a day when the president found himself in a White House partially emptied out by the shutdown, he seized on a conservative newspaper report, itself with very vague sourcing, that prayer rugs have been found at the border, a racist innuendo that Muslims are sneaking across the border. That is literally a plot point from an action movie. When he says Muslims are sneaking, what is that saying? Oh, terrorists.

We're going to get into all of those stories tonight. Lots to talk about including our breaking news that Robert's Mueller's office is disputing the BuzzFeed report that President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress. We're going to dig into it with Josh Campbell, Harry Litman and Ryan Lizza.

[22:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Here's our breaking news tonight. Robert Mueller's team disputing an explosive BuzzFeed report alleging the president told Michael Cohen to lie to Congress. In a rare move, the Special Counsel's Office weighed in tonight saying the story is not accurate, but BuzzFeed is still standing by their reporting and urging Mueller to make clear what he is disputing.

Let's discuss now. Josh Campbell is here, Harry Litman and Ryan Lizza, as well. Good evening to all of you. So, listen, I got to put this in, Ryan, the president responded to this tonight, and I just want to read what he said and then also tell you what's true and what's not about this.

He said, remember it was BuzzFeed that released the totally discredited dossier paid for by crooked Hillary Clinton and the Democrats as opposition research on which the entire Russian probe is based, a very sad day for journalism, but a great day for our country.

So when it's very important to be accurate, I just want to put this out there, and you can respond. The dossier is not totally discredited. A lot of it has turned out to be true, as a matter of fact. The dossier research was originally funded by Republicans before the Democrats hired Fusion GPS, the Washington Free Beacon actually started it first.

The entire Russia probe is not based on the dossier. The probe originated when the Australians tipped off the U.S. about what Papadopoulos was saying about the Russians having dirt on HRC, meaning Hillary Rodham Clinton. So there you go. Your response?

RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, ESQUIRE MAGAZINE: So just a few minor details that weren't quite accurate in that tweet. Look, I think if he is going to -- if, indeed, BuzzFeed has made a major mistake here and their reporting is not accurate, the President citing the special counsel for its honesty and accuracy.

What it will do is burnish the special counsel's credentials as a fair arbiter of the public facts in this case, but I don't think we're there yet. I don't think it is clear to me what the special counsel is actually disputing.

You know, as anyone in journalism, you sometimes you get these denials from officials that just vaguely say something is not accurate without getting into the details, and you're left sort of, you know, with even more -- with even more confusion, because you don't know what they're disputing.

And we can get into the weeds of this, but I think what they're disputing mostly is the corroboration that BuzzFeed is reporting. They're disputing the interviews with Trump organization officials and documentation that comes from the Trump organization.

If you really dig into the details I think that is what they are the most -- it's what their statement is referring to, not necessarily what Trump told Cohen. And to get really in the weeds here, Don, if you remember the documents that were released when Michael Cohen pled guilty, he says a couple things. He says Trump directed me to do the hush payments to his former paramours, right? And he says that very specifically. Trump directed me.

On the lying to Congress, he says in one part of his sentencing memo that he was just watching the president's public pronouncements and then catering his testimony to conform to them. But then to really confuse things, in a second part of that sentencing memo, there's a blanket statement that both the hush money and the false statements to Congress were at the direction of Donald Trump.

So a lot of people are digging over that tonight, looking at what Cohen has previously said and seeing if it is similar to this BuzzFeed report. And it is in a way and it is not in a way.

LEMON: OK. Josh, what do you think of the whole situation and what Ryan just said?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: So, look, we've been saying throughout the day that this story creates more questions than answers, right?

[22:25:01] I mean, obviously, you know, we've been saying if this is corroborated, these are explosive allegations. But there are so many questions there as far as how they're corroborating what Michael Cohen allegedly said the president told him to do.

They mentioned text messages, they mentioned e-mails, they mentioned other documents. And we've been saying throughout the day that we need to dig into those and figure out what they're referencing before we can corroborate that. So that is important to note.

I also know having worked for Bob Mueller and his press shop back in the day, getting him to talk to the press is like squeezing blood out of a turnip.

LEMON: It's huge.

CAMPBELL: It's huge. And so the fact that he would come out and make a statement and say, you know, even though it was very general, to say that we're refuting this reporting says a lot.

And I just -- I had dinner with some folks who know Bob Mueller very well. They're not versed on the ins and outs of his current investigation, but the consensus at that table was that Mueller is probably trying to signal that, look, whatever these leaks are coming from these, quote/unquote, "law enforcement officials," they didn't come from him and they didn't come from his shop.

We know that he runs a very tight operation, and he can be commended for that, obviously, running an investigation in this highly charged political climate. But again, they're trying to make that case -- at least that's a signaling that didn't come from him. I will say also --

LEMON: I probably shouldn't tell people I ran into you at dinner so I know who you're talking about and you're exactly right. These are people who would know.

CAMPBELL: Yes, they would now. Exactly. The last thing I would say though, lost on no one is the fact that once this story came out -- and again, this is our viewers as we sit here trying to listen, trying to figure out, OK, you know, obviously the BuzzFeed folks need to give us more information. Mueller needs to give us more information, as Ryan mentioned, that statement is very generic coming from the special counsel, but lost on no one is the fact that many of us heard that -- read about that story last night and weren't the least bit surprised that the president, this president, would direct someone to lie.

LEMON: Or could.

CAMPBELL: That in and of itself was shocking.

LEMON: Or was capable of it.

CAMPBELL: Correct.

LEMON: Not actually directed it.

CAMPBELL: That's right.

LEMON: And by the way, we did say if it's true. CNN has not been able to --

CAMPBELL: That is right.

LEMON: -- to corroborate this story. I just want to put the statement up from the Special Counsel. This is BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office and the characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding Michael Cohen's congressional testimony are not accurate. OK?

So, Harry, a couple things here. They're not saying the entire report is inaccurate. They're saying the characterizations, right, of the documents and the description of specific statements to the Special Counsel's Office. But then you take into account what our colleague, Josh, here is saying, for the Special Counsel's Office to release a statement on something is highly unusual. So what does this all mean?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes. I mean I would even say unprecedented on the substance like this. And, yes, the oracle of Mueller speaks, but what the oracle says is somewhat cryptic.

I see Josh's point that Mueller would like to say this wasn't from us, but BuzzFeed really didn't say it was. And I think Mueller has avoided any kind of suggestion of trying to push back for his own reputation and the conduct of the office. There have been other instances where he has stayed silent.

My best guess is he thinks to runaway reporting on the BuzzFeed stuff is somehow having a public reaction that is leading people perhaps in the wrong direction, and he felt impelled to push forward.

The one thing that occurs to me, Ronan Farrow of the "New Yorker" tweeted minutes ago that a basic part of the BuzzFeed story, he thinks, is wrong at least in the Trump's having real documentation that he ordered it.

Everyone's talking impeachment today because if it's true you sort of have to talk impeachment. It strikes me as plausible that Mueller wants to signal to kind of reel that back in, even though the basic story, I agree with Josh and Ryan, is accurate.

It's what makes sense of the original plea of Cohen in the first place for no real reason, nothing extra in the sentence, and really the reason they had to do it was to lay down a predicate for then investigating other people. But my best guess on the Mueller point is it's something more than just saying, I'm not the source.

LEMON: All right. Again, we don't want to speculate. We don't know. We just need to take a step back and figure out what's true and what's not. And, again, for the sake of accuracy, since you mentioned Ronan Farrow's report, I don't want it to be misconstrued or his tweet. Here's what he said.

He said, "I can't speak to BuzzFeed sourcing, but for what it's worth, I decline to run with parts of the narrative they conveyed based on a source central to the story repeatedly disputing the idea that Trump directly issued orders of that kind."

Again, we need to step back and figure out exactly what's true and what's not. But that is his whole tweet, and you can interpret it the way you wish.

Gentlemen, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

BuzzFeed is standing by its reporting. Our chief media correspondent, Brian Stelter, spoke with the editor in chief of BuzzFeed just a short time ago. Brian tells us what he said. That is next.

[22:30:04] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. This is a breaking news tonight. The Special Counsel, Robert Mueller's Office disputing an explosive story from BuzzFeed news as not accurate after the news outlet reported the president had directed his attorney, Michael Cohen, to lie to Congress, for which Cohen was later prosecuted, quote, "BuzzFeed's description of specific statements to the special counsel's office and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office regarding Michael Cohen's congressional testimony are not accurate."

Let's discuss now. CNN's chief media correspondent, Brian Stelter, is here along with CNN's business senior media reporter, Oliver Darcy. Good evening to both of you. I'm so glad you're on.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Good evening.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN BUSINESS SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Good evening.

LEMON: Man --

STELTER: Strange night.

LEMON: What a story, right, Brian?

So, listen, this story broke last night. Every major news organization has been trying to corroborate it without success, right? And now, the special counsel's office has put out this statement. What happened there?

STELTER: Yes, for a while today I was thinking, well, OK, well, no one's confirmed it, but no one's denied it.

LEMON: Right.

STELTER: Obviously that is changed in a big way. I think the reason why this story has been the biggest stories in the country, one of the biggest stories in the world over the last 24 hours, is because BuzzFeed has had a strong track record when it comes to these stories. Trump Tower Moscow, BuzzFeed has been all over that for months and they broke a lot of news on this story.

So when they broke this story, this time yesterday, it made sense to immediately follow up. But it is clear that there's some issue with BuzzFeed sourcing, either the sources don't have the right information, or the reporters misunderstood the sources.

[22:35:03] You know, in these games of telephone we all play, Don, things can go wrong. However, BuzzFeed did have a strong track record, and I think those editors, those reporters tonight, they're trying to get to the bottom of this.

LEMON: But Brian, a story that is this consequential.

STELTER: Hey, I'm with you.

LEMON: You can't misunderstand what a source is telling you.

STELTER: I am with you, and one of my concerns about the story when it came out was is it cited only two sources, two senior law enforcement officials.

LEMON: Right.

STELTER: I do buy in to the theory --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But it did say text and there were -- it said there were other documents, right.

STELTER: Documents -- right. And then the reporters today said maybe we haven't seen -- they said they had not seen the key documents. So this story did leave a lot that people wanted to know more about it. I think the frustration is palpable that Bob Mueller knows a lot more than we do. How much longer do we have to wait for the answers? But right now, BuzzFeed's reputation is on the line in a big way.

LEMON: All right. Stand by, Oliver, because I've got one more question for Brian. Because you were on with Anderson just a short time ago. The editor-in-chief of BuzzFeed was on.

STELTER: Yes.

LEMON: He says they remain confident in their story. Do you think that might be a mistake?

STELTER: Editors always say that initially. I don't doubt Ben Smith when he says it. And I think he really does have confidence in the story. After all, he knows the two sources. He knows who the two sources were. So, he's been deeply involved in this story. He says the special counsel should explain what was wrong in the story. He is trying to put it on the special counsel, but the odds of that happening are so slim.

LEMON: Yes. STELTER: So it really is a challenge for BuzzFeed going forward.

Hopefully, they will figure out why this has been challenged, why this has been disputed.

LEMON: Do you think it's fair to ask for BuzzFeed to ask the special counsel, hey, listen, tell us what we got wrong, so we know, because we stand by our reporting. Do you think that is fair?

DARCY: I don't know. I think that Ben Smith, when he goes out and says this, I think he knows that the odds that this happens are very slim. He is certainly within his rights to say this. I don't know also -- I know during Anderson's show, Preet was talking about --

LEMON: Preet Bharara.

DARCY: Preet Bharara -- usually the way these things work is off the record sometimes reporters will talk with the subjects that they're talking to when the requests come, and they'll be waved off a story, or the offices will say, we're not commenting on the story.

It would be interesting to know what happened in those conversations. Were there conversations that they did just not respond to comment? Were they told off the record maybe don't publish this? I think that will be interesting to see what happens.

LEMON: Preet was skeptical. He says, he is skeptical about the story, especially considering the import.

DARCY: Yes.

LEMON: He said, you can't be wrong about -- even though they did not dispute the entirety of the story, at least in that statement, I'm not reading that in there. You can't be wrong about any aspect of a story that's that important. You wrote a piece on the reporters who did the story today. What can you tell us?

DARCY: Well, I want to stress these reporters, like Brian said, have been leading the way with the Trump Tower Moscow project stories. They've been breaking news for months. So, when they did report this, it had people scrambling to match it.

And I do want to say that the lead byline on the story was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize, it was part of the team -- that was finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in 2018. So he does have a very good recent track record.

STELTER: That is Jason Leopold.

DARCY: Jason Leopold. That said, if you look back 15 years, he did have some problems with some of the stories that he published under his byline. There were accusations of plagiarism which he denied, but salon.com was forced to retract a story from him. He reported that Karl Rove in 2006 had been telling people, including then President George W. Bush, that he was going to be indicted in the Valerie Plame Affair, and that didn't end up happening either. And so there had been a lot of question, I think about -- it's his story reporting some of those stuff, not to say that his recent stuff hasn't been good. His stuff has been really good as of late, but these questions and a particularly because of the attention the story has receives, I think people are examining his record.

LEMON: All right. I appreciate your reporting. Thank you so much.

STELTER: Thanks.

DARCY: Thank you.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're just hours away from the 29th day of this shutdown, the shutdown over the President's demand for a border wall, which could be the reason the President tweeted an unsubstantiated story about the border, an evidence-free story that prayer rugs had been found there.

The president tweeted, quote, "border rancher, we found prayer rugs out here. It is unreal. Washington Examiner, people coming across the Southern border from many countries, some of which would be a big surprise."

Before we go any further, let's lay out a couple of facts for you here, OK? The Washington Examiner's story was based on an anecdote from one rancher. There's nothing wrong with prayer rugs, and the innuendo that Muslims means terrorists is indefensible.

So what's more according to a 2017 report from the president's own State Department, there is no credible evidence that international terrorist groups have established bases in Mexico or have sent operatives into the United States through Mexico.

Let's discuss with Kirsten Powers and Steve Cortes. Good evening to both of you. So good to have you on.

STEVE CORTES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good evening.

LEMON: So, the President based his tweet off of an article published Wednesday by the Washington Examiner which included video of the anonymous rancher. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I obviously don't have any proof of it, but I've talked to several agents that I trust. There's a lot of -- of people coming in from not just Mexico, and people -- the general public just don't get the terrorists facts of that. And that's what's really scary is you don't know what's coming across. We found prayer rugs out here. It's unreal. It's not just Mexican nationals that are coming over.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: The rancher says flat out, she has no proof. Should the

president have amplified what amounts to hearsay, Steve?

CORTES: Well, look, you're the one, by the way, who said terrorist. The president didn't say that at all. What he said is there are prayer rugs, and the way I take that is, it is surprising and shocking. There are very few Muslims in Latin America that people are coming from all over the world and coming across our porous southern border.

[22:45:05] That's not just my opinion by the way. The Laredo Station of Customs and Border Protection tells us that over 600 Bangladeshis -- at that single station over 600 Bangladeshis that's literally the other side of the globe were caught crossing there.

We have no idea how many weren't cross -- weren't caught crossing. So, what does that tell us? It tells us that the world knows that the place to cross easily into the United States is our southern border because it's undefended and it's porous.

LEMON: Steve. Steve, that is not true. An administration official has told CNN.

CORTES: Wait, what part of that is not true? Hold on, hold on, you can't say "this," what part?

LEMON: You're saying that there's no innuendo. What does that mean when you say prayer rugs? No one said, oh, my gosh, I found a crucifix. Oh, my gosh, look, there's a crucifix at the southern border.

CORTES: Right.

LEMON: Because that means Catholics or people could be coming over from Spain, right? No one said any of that. But what is the -- what -- and to pretend that there's not some innuendo, some xenophobic innuendo that they found prayer rugs, what does that mean? Who cares?

CORTES: It's a matter of where geography --

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The woman -- but the woman --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK. Let me just get into facts here.

CORTES: It's a matter of geography. It would be surprising to find a lot of Muslims coming from Mexico. That would be very surprising.

LEMON: Are you concerned about Muslims coming over from the Northern Border?

CORTES: I'm concerned about people who don't belong here coming from Norway or Bangladesh or Mexico.

LEMON: OK. So then why are you pushing for a northern wall, because an administration official has told CNN that more non-U.S. citizens, Steve, on terror watch lists were encountered on the northern -- on the northern border than the southern border, and they tried to enter the country through legal ports of entry. No one is saying, oh, my gosh, there's a crisis at the northern border. All of these people are coming over. Why not? You can't sit here and say that there isn't some xenophobic innuendo here.

COHEN: Don, you know, there is not. By the way, you know, look, you said this. Chris Cuomo said it right before your show. You talked about brown menace. Again, you are --

LEMON: I didn't say brown menace. I never said brown menace.

CORTES: Well, Chris Cuomo did.

LEMON: OK. We are going to talk to Chris about that. Talk to Chris about that.

CORTES: OK. Fine, but here's the thing. When you start with the conclusion that the president is a racist, like BuzzFeed started with the conclusion that he colluded with Russia, well, guess what? Then you find evidence that somehow, some way fits your narrative, and that is not journalism.

LEMON: OK. We talked about BuzzFeed for the first 45 minutes of this show. We're not talking about that. I didn't start with the supposition that the president was racist. We talked about this story, which made absolutely no sense about some woman who may or may not even know what a prayer rug looks like. Kirsten, I'm sorry. Let me give you --

CORTES: You're telling me you're not accusing him of racism against --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I'm accusing him -- I'm not accusing -- I'm questioning whether he is being reckless with the way he is treating this and what he is tweeting out about it and that he is doing it without knowing the facts. Kirsten, please go on.

POWERS: The woman said herself that the whole point of the prayer rug story was the people don't realize the terrorist threat. So how are you suggesting that the story that he tweeted wasn't about claiming that finding prayer rugs are connected to a terrorist threat? That is the implication. The implication is -- well, first of all, there were no prayer rugs found. Let's just start there.

If there were, for some weird reason, even though there are all these prayer rugs, nobody took a picture of any of them. And you know, Breitbart had run a story a couple years ago about this claim -- making the exact same claim and posted a picture of the prayer rug, and it ended up being a soccer shirt.

So this has been a sort of ongoing thing, but for you to try to pretend that this isn't to imply that somehow there's some connection between prayer rugs and terrorism is just completely ignoring the story that he tweeted.

LEMON: Yes. I got to run. Thank you both.

CORTES: We know that 600-plus Bangladeshis --

LEMON: I got to go. It's over. Thank you, guys. We'll be right back. I'm sorry. I'm out of time. We'll be right back.

[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Partial government shutdown already the longest in history, soon to enter day 29. The president says he is making what he calls a major shut down announcement tomorrow afternoon at three and he released a video tease of sorts on Twitter or of course just a little while ago. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Take the politics out of it. Let's get to work and let's make a deal. We sit down. A lot of the Democrats, they agree with me. They have told me so, but they're afraid to say it. We have to secure our southern border. If we don't do that, we're a very, very sad and foolish lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Mark McKinnon is here to discuss. So Mark, what do you think? A real announcement tomorrow?

MARK MCKINNON, THE CIRCUS ON SHOWTIME HOST: We'll see, you know, I mean part of the problem is that the President has just driven himself into a rhetorical cul-de-sac with the wall. When you really break it out and talk about the components of border security that both Republicans and Democrats are arguing about, but they agree really on about 90 percent of what they're talking about. It's just that the actual notion of a wall, which is where everybody's getting stuck.

So, ultimately, I think -- and you know, 60 percent of the country just doesn't like the idea of a wall, period. So, it's way beyond a majority. And yet, that is what Donald Trump is clinging to, and I think that is ultimately what he believes he has to have for his base in order to succeed with these negotiations. So, that's yin and the yang of those, but Nancy Pelosi has said, not one dollar for wall. So that's where the breakdown comes down.

And what the question will be whether or not Donald Trump can find some semantic way to get out of this. I mean, the metaphor has become a manacle for him, the metaphor for the walls has become manacle it shackled him into negotiations.

[22:55:10] So, the question is can he change that definition.

LEMON: Can I ask you a question, because you're a strategist, we're coming up on a month now for this shutdown, whose shoes would you rather be in, the Democrats or the president's? MCKINNON: Oh, man. Oh, Democrats shoes are looking really good right now. You know, the public blames the president for this and really doesn't blame Republicans, it just they -- the vast majority blame the President and ironically the president said he wanted to own the shutdown. Well, now he owns it and in a weird Trumpian way, I think he kind of wanted to go for the record of a shout down. Well, now he's got it.

And I think what's going to happen is that the very real life consequences, I mean, we've seen people without paychecks and all that happening, but I think that there's going to be -- there's going to be like a hockey stick on the consequences on this, a lot of which we can't undo or can't undo very quickly, and that is when the real drama is going to happen and the real impact is going to happen. And I think it's going be really, really painful, and mostly painful for the president.

LEMON: So, where do you think it's going to end up then? Do you think they are going to get those -- there's going to be some give from the Democrats or the president is going to have to say, I can't get it this way, and I'm going to have to figure out some way to do it, maybe the Emergency.

MACCALLUM: I think the Democrats feel like they are in a rock solid position. They have total leverage on the situation. It's going to be the president that is going to have to give somewhere, and I suspect what's going to happen is that there will be some kind of emergency of some sort, that's going to force the president's hand, where he can go in and say, I had to do it, I had to do it for the good of the country.

Democrats wouldn't do it. I saved the situation. Even though I had to give in some, which I don't normally like to do, I saved the day and I suspect that is the kind of scenario that we're likely to see.

LEMON: Mark McKinnon from Denver, thank you, sir, I appreciate it. Have a good weekend.

MCKINNON: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)